What do You Mean By “Free Will”
There are many words and concepts in theology that suffer from misunderstanding,
mis-characterization, and misinformation. “Predestination,” “Calvinism,” “Total Depravity,” “Inerrancy,” and “Complementarianism”, just to name a few that I personally have to deal with. Proponents are more often than not on the defensive, having to explain again and again why it is they don’t mean what people think they mean.
The concept of “free will” suffers no less with regard to this misunderstanding. Does a person have free will? Well, what do you mean by “free will”? This must always be asked.
Do you mean:
- That a person is not forced from the outside to make a choice?
- That a person is responsible for his or her choices?
- That a person is the active agent in a choice made?
- That a person is free to do whatever they desire?
- That a person has the ability to choose contrary to their nature (who they are)?
Calvinists, such as myself, do believe in free will and we don’t believe in free will. It just depends on what you mean.
When it comes to the first three options, most Calvinist would agree that a person is not forced to make a choice, is responsible for their choices, and is the active agent behind those choices. They would reject the forth believing that a person is not free to do whatever they desire (for example, no matter how much one desires, he or she cannot read the thoughts of another person, fly without wings, or transport from one location to another just by thinking about the desired location).
It is important to note at this point, there is no conflict. No matter what theological persuasion you adhere to, most of historic Christianity has agreed that the first three are true, while the fourth is false.
It is with the fifth option there is disagreement.
Does a person have the ability to choose against their nature?
This question gets to the heart of the issue. Here we introduce a new and more defined term: “Libertarian Free will” or “Libertarian Freedom.” Libertarian freedom can be defined briefly as “the power of contrary choice.”
If you ask whether a person can choose against their nature (i.e. libertarian freedom) the answer, I believe, must be “no.” A person’s nature makes up who they are. Who they are determines their choice. If there choice is determined, then the freedom is self-limited. Therefore, there is no “power” of contrary choice for we cannot identify what or who this “power” might be. I know, I know . . . slow down. Let me explain.
First, it is important to get this out of the way. To associate this denial of libertarian freedom exclusively with Calvinism would be misleading. St. Augustine was the first to deal with this issue in a comprehensive manner. Until the forth century, it was simply assumed that people were free and responsible, but they had yet to flesh out what this meant. Augustine argued that people choose according to who they are. If they are good, they make good choices. If they are bad, they make bad choices. These choices are free, they just lack liberty. In other words, a person does not become a sinner because they sin, they sin because they are a sinner. It is an issue of nature first. If people are identified with the fallen nature of Adam, then they will make choices similar to that of Adam because it is who they are. Yes, they are making a free choice, but this choice does not include the liberty of contrary choice.
What you have to ask is this: If “free will” means that we can choose against our nature (the power of contrary choice), if “free will” means that we can choose against who we are, what does this mean? What does this look like? How does a free person make a choice that is contrary to who they are? Who is making the choice? What is “free will” in this paradigm?
If one can choose according to who they are not, then they are not making the choice and this is not really freedom at all, no? Therefore, there is, at the very least, a self-determinism at work here. This is a limit on free will and, therefore, a necessary denial of libertarian freedom.
Think about all that goes into making “who you are.” We are born in the fallen line of Adam. Spiritually speaking we have an inbred inclination toward sin. All of our being is infected with sin. This is called “total depravity.” Every aspect of our being is infected with sin, even if we don’t act it out to a maximal degree.
But even if this were not the case,—even if total depravity were a false doctrine—libertarian freedom would still be untenable. Not only are you who you are because of your identification with a fallen human race, but notice all these factors that you did not choose that go into the set up for any given “free will” decision made:
- You did not choose when you were to be born.
- You did not choose where you were to be born.
- You did not choose your parents.
- You did not choose your influences early in your life.
- You did not choose whether you were to be male or female.
- You did not choose your genetics.
- You did not choose your temperament.
- You did not choose your looks.
- You did not choose your body type.
- You did not choose your physical abilities.
All of these factor play an influencing role in who you are at the time of any given decision. Yes, your choice is free, but it has you behind them. Therefore, you are free to choose according to you from whom you are not able to free yourself.
Now, I must reveal something here once again that might surprise many of you. This view is held by both Calvinists and Arminians alike. Neither position believes that a person can choose against their nature. Arminians, however, differ from Calvinists in that they believe in the doctrine of prevenient grace, which essentially neutralizes the will so that the inclination toward sin—the antagonism toward God—is relieved so that the person can make a true “free will” decision.
However, we still have some massive difficulties. Here are a couple:
A neutralized will amounts to your absence from the choice itself.
Changing the nature of a person so that their predispositions are neutral does not really help. We are back to the question What does a neutralized will look like? Does it erase all of the you behind the choice? If you are neutralized and liberated from you, then who is making the choice? How can you be held responsible for a choice that you did not really make, whether good or bad?
A neutralized will amounts to perpetual indecision. Think about this, if a person had true libertarian freedom, where there were no coercive forces, personal or divine, that influenced the decision, would a choice ever be made? If you have no reason to choose A or B, then neither would ever be chosen. Ronald Nash illustrates this by presenting a dog who has true libertarian freedom trying to decide between two bowls of dog food. He says that the dog would end up dying of starvation. Why? Because he would never have any reason to choose one over the other. It is like a balanced scale, it will never tilt to the right or the left unless the weights (influence) on one side is greater than the other. Then, no matter how little weight (influence) is added to a balanced scale, it will always choose accordingly.
A neutralized will amounts to arbitrary decisions, which one cannot be held responsible for.
For the sake of argument, let’s say that libertarian choice could be made. Let’s say that the dog did choose one food bowl over the other. In a truly libertarian sense, this decision cannot have influences of any kind. Any decision without influences is arbitrary. It would be like flipping a coin. I chose A rather than B, not because of who I am, but for no reason at all. It just turned out that way. But this option is clearly outside a biblical worldview of responsibility and judgment.
Therefore, while I believe in free will, I don’t believe in libertarian free will. We make the choices we make because of who we are. We are responsible for these choices. God will judge each person accordingly with a righteous judgment.
Is there tension? Absolutely. We hold in tension our belief in God’s sovereignty, determining who we are, where we will live, who our parents will be, etc. and human responsibility. While this might seem uncomfortable, I believe that it is not only the best biblical option, but the only philosophical option outside outside of fatalism, and we don’t want to go there.
“From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’” Acts 17:26
I encourage you to read J.P. Moreland and William Lane Craig in their book Philosophical Foundations for a Biblical Worldview. They disagree with my thesis here, but they present a strong case for the other side.
Thoughts? Do you believe in free will?
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- Why I Reject the Arminian Doctrine of Prevenient Grace
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You Mean “God is Sovereign”? Four Options

Jonathan on 02 Aug 2008 at 12:29 pm #
Premise A:
My nature (who I am) is wholly determined by a multitude of external factors, all of which are outside of my control or choice.
Premise B:
It is impossible for me to choose in contraction to my nature.
Conclusion:
It is impossible for me to choose in contraction to the factors in Premise A. My choices are wholly determined by external factors outside of my control or choice.
It is hard for me to see how I could be responsible for “choices” which I could not have chosen otherwise.
Sorry, but what this argument reminds me most of are Zeno’s paradoxes, whereby one can “prove” that it’s impossible to move. It’s difficult to see where the logical flaw is in Zeno’s paradoxes, but obviously there must be one, because things do move.
C Michael Patton on 02 Aug 2008 at 12:37 pm #
Zeno paradox is only an implied paradox that mixes the issues in such a way that it seems beyond reconciliation. For example, a parallel to Zeno’s paradox would be God’s omnipotence. If God can do all things, can he make a rock so big that he cannot pick it up? These two issues cannot be paralleled and are therefore inherently contradictory. It is the same with Zeno’s paradox.
With the issue of libertarian free will, the categories are not mixed. While there is great mystery, there is no an answer that requires a contradictory leap of faith that mixes the categories.
In other words, I don’t see the parallel.
Having said that, I do recognize the mystery. What alternative to you propose? Or do you believe that we can choose against who we are? If you do, who is choosing?
Susan on 02 Aug 2008 at 1:12 pm #
Michael,
As I was reading this I was hearing Acts 17… which I see you have concluded with. So, you are saying… that God providentially shapes our nature such that we will choose Him (those whom He has chosen) , right?
That makes sense to me, and it is consistent with Romans 3:10-12 (Ps 14:1-3):
There is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away..”…. which I read as saying that God has initiated this seeking in us. That on our own we do not seek God. He places us in the right time and place, in every way, so that we will see Him, and come to understand who Jesus is (including the witness of others…).
I was bringing my son to a VBS at a Reformed church all week. He’d been invited by a friend, to a church We’d never attended. I think of the Reformed as being staunchly Calvinistic…. so I was somewhat amused at the number of times I heard them throw down the word “Choose” with reference to Jesus. It made me think…How should we articulate this message to a child? I sort of concluded that our emphasis should be on sin, God’s punishment for sin, our need for forgiveness, and how we turn to Him through Jesus for forgiveness. “It’s your big decision… choose Jesus” makes it sound as if we are the initiators.
tc robinson on 02 Aug 2008 at 1:18 pm #
As a Calvinist I too believe in free will, but properly understood. I believe you’ve done a good job at phrasing things properly.
“No one can choose contrary to their will” is the clincher. The Libertarian only thinks that he can do so.
Michael Moss on 02 Aug 2008 at 5:26 pm #
Could you recommend a good monograph or journal article arguing for your position (that persons are incapable of making choices contrary to their nature)?
Thanks in advance.
Jonathan on 02 Aug 2008 at 9:03 pm #
Just to clarify, I was not saying that this argument is parallel in form to Zeno’s paradoxes or anything of that nature. The only parallel is in the result (i.e., seeming to prove something which seems to be incompatible with what we experience).
Also, Zeno’s paradox is much more serious on the philosophical level than the “omnipotence & rock” silliness, which is a verbal trick, on the level of someone saying “I am lying” (which if true, is false, and vice-versa).
I think the gap in the argument is really in the concept of “my nature” itself. It seems to me that “nature” is being used in the argument as a deterministic entity, when I would say it is more like a probabilistic entity. By this I mean that I doubt there are many people whose nature such that they get angry 100% of the time without exception when someone cuts them off in traffic. However, it’s very likely that most people get angry some of time when this happens.
Therefore, it seems to me that, in any given instance of being cut off in traffic, for most people, the choice between getting angry and not is a genuine, non-deterministic choice.
If we say, well, given the identical set of circumstances, the choice would always be the same, then I see no way of escaping the charge of determinism/fatalism.
bethyada on 03 Aug 2008 at 2:19 am #
Michael, you dismissed 4 by giving some examples that contradict it and then move on but you have not found fault with it.
Try free will means: That a person is free to do things they desire (that they are also capable of doing)?
And your assumption with 5 is that there are not competing claims which there are. Is it not possible that God has given us the ability to deal with competing claims yet not be forced to choose the one that weighs most heavily?
Free will means at least that, “Choose this day whom you shall serve” has a real meaning. That everyone who hears this command could choose the true God even though not everyone will end up doing so.
bethyada on 03 Aug 2008 at 2:21 am #
I think the term “self-will” can be helpful in distinguishing these concepts
Saint and Sinner on 03 Aug 2008 at 9:55 am #
“Free will means at least that, “Choose this day whom you shall serve” has a real meaning. That everyone who hears this command could choose the true God even though not everyone will end up doing so.”
That assumes that “ought” implies “can” which begs the very question under dispute.
Alexander M Jordan on 04 Aug 2008 at 12:20 am #
Thanks for this interesting discussion on free will, which, as you know, often comes into play in the Arminian vs. Calvinism debate. Along these lines, I have another argument as to why the Arminian “free will” position is untenable.
If, as the Arminian asserts, one makes a “free” choice (meaning, a choice not forced by God or other external influence, yet influenced by God’s “prevenient grace”) to “accept” the gospel of Christ, then the question must be raised, why does that person do so?
As you mentioned, classical Arminianism agrees that man is totally depraved, but argues that there exists a prevenient grace that is universal in its effects– thus, every totally depraved sinner has been enabled to make a true “choice” of whether to accept or reject the gospel.
If prevenient grace is applicable to all, presumably this means all have received grace enough to be able to choose Christ if so desired; yet we know that not all do or will choose Christ.
The Arminian free will position does not adequately explain why one person chooses Christ, while another does not, since both the one who accepts and the one who rejects have received equal portions of prevenient grace and have apparently equal opportunity to respond.
According to this view, it would seem that the one who chooses Christ responds better or more appropriately to grace and therefore makes a right choice, but since both the one who chooses Christ and the one who rejects Christ have equal opportunity and receive equal grace, it would seem that one of them is intrinsically wiser or more noble or more worthy than the other– or in other words, it must be something within them that makes them to differ from their neighbor who rejects God’s grace.
Yet if the Arminian agrees that God is the Creator who fashions each of us, then the “difference” in the person who chooses God must be something God Himself places in that person.
It seems to me then, that since the Arminian view accepts that a) God is the sovereign Creator, and b) man is a fallen sinner, then they ought to also agree that the “difference” in a person which allows them to choose God, while someone else does not, must originate with God. And if that ability is something given by God, then of course we are asserting the Calvinist position–that God elects, and grants to those whom He’s chosen, the faith to see the truth of the gospel. I think this view gives God the glory in our salvation that He alone deserves.
Peter on 04 Aug 2008 at 12:53 am #
This sets the problem out in Calvinist categories, and surprise surprise comes to Calvinist conclusions.
The question is asked “are we good, bad or neutral?”. If bad, we can’t choose God without him forcing the issue. If we’re neutral we would be in endless indecision.
But hang on now, even in Calvinist land, when we are regenerated we are not totally good, and yet we still choose God (always according to Calvinists). So why assume that someone “bad” can’t choose God? In fact why would we divide living breathing human decision making into such black and white categories? We are living souls, not positions on a Platonic dualistic scale. Nobody is totally good or totally bad. Nobody makes decisions purely because of their position on the good/bad scale.
I’m reminded of Einstein who held the premise that God does not play dice. And then Quantum physics came along where the behaviour of particles cannot be predicted by science. Einstein is like a Calvinist doggedly holding to a position because its easier to make sense of. It’s more satisfying (to some). But that doesn’t make it right.
Don on 04 Aug 2008 at 2:15 am #
I’ve been through this “free will” thing so many times I thought my head would explode! I finally came to the conclusion I would just live my life as an Arminian, and if I was wrong about Calvinism, then great. I don’t think it’s a sin to be wrong on this question, but if it is, my Arminian friends would tell me, it might keep me out of heaven .
Chris E on 04 Aug 2008 at 6:08 am #
Michael - I recommend looking at some of the work of David Hume on this subject. Alternatively RC Sproul has written extensively on Free-Will versus Self-Determination.
Phil on 04 Aug 2008 at 9:07 am #
#11 has it right with that first sentence. In my experience of talking to Calvinists, it seems to me like some sort of determinism is a a priori assumption in their reasoning process. You say: “Think about this, if a person had true libertarian freedom, where there were no coercive forces, personal or divine, that influenced the decision, would a choice ever be made? If you have no reason to choose A or B, then neither would ever be chosen.”
If I’m reading this correctly, you are saying that if there is nothing in the nature of the person that forces him to choose in a particular way, then he will never choose at all. In other words, all choices are determined by the nature and circumstances of the one choosing. But for me, genuine free will by definition operates above the entire set up of our determined state. The very point of free will as a philosophical concept is that, even when our nature is completely settled, when all the deterministic forces that shape our condition have had their say, there is still “room” to choose; there is still a path in front of us to choose, there is still an “input” we make that does not come from the things about ourselves that we do not control. Freedom is a power that has been granted to the individual; by definition it means some sort of self-determination. Self-determination is something different than simply what is determined by one’s inner nature. It is not random, nor is it deterministic–it is something different from both.
A Most Heated Discussion Most of the Time « Here I Stand . . . I Can Do Nothing Else on 05 Aug 2008 at 12:46 am #
[...] & Pen blog of Reclaiming the Mind Ministries has written an excellent article entitled What Do You Mean By “Free Will”. I highly recommend this to you, especially if you struggle with this issue or you find your views [...]
Alexander M Jordan on 06 Aug 2008 at 4:40 pm #
I don’t believe the natural human will towards God is either neutral or good.
According to Scripture, “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God (Romans 3: 11).”
This statement is part of Paul’s argument in Romans in which he demonstrates the universality of man’s condition of sinfulness and estrangement from God.
Above, Peter wrote:
“But hang on now, even in Calvinist land, when we are regenerated we are not totally good, and yet we still choose God (always according to Calvinists). ”
I don’t know in what sense you mean that one always chooses God after regeneration– I don’t know any Calvinist that says that in every choice after regeneration the believer always chooses God. Ultimately, the believer who is being saved by God will persevere and in that sense will “choose” God, but certainly the regenerated believer continues to struggle with sin (and in that sense, doesn’t always choose God).
Paul says of believers:
For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. (Romans 7:22-25); and also,
For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it? (1 Cor 4:7).
Phil writes above:
“But for me, genuine free will by definition operates above the entire set up of our determined state. The very point of free will as a philosophical concept is that, even when our nature is completely settled, when all the deterministic forces that shape our condition have had their say, there is still “room” to choose; there is still a path in front of us to choose, there is still an “input” we make that does not come from the things about ourselves that we do not control. Freedom is a power that has been granted to the individual; by definition it means some sort of self-determination. Self-determination is something different than simply what is determined by one’s inner nature. It is not random, nor is it deterministic–it is something different from both.”
This is a statement of what you believe about the nature of free will– can you show how this concept is supported by Scripture?
The main point of my earlier comment was to try to show how the Arminian or free will position cannot explain how a sinner who isn’t seeking God (since no one seeks God), suddenly is able to do so in a way that is an independent choice. And if this were really true, that one could make a “free-will” choice of God, then we would have something to boast about– we would be able to say, “I chose God, I chose to believe the gospel”, while others did not.
But the Bible leaves no room for this sort of boast because God designed it that way.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9)
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (Romans 9:14-16)
phil on 07 Aug 2008 at 6:58 am #
Alexander, you wrote:
“This is a statement of what you believe about the nature of free will– can you show how this concept is supported by Scripture?”
Not in any direct or conclusive way. It is an opinion based on a number of things–including the overall witness of scripture–that have shaped my view of God and man. And I readily admit that I could be wrong, and that the nonexistence of free will, in the sense I describe, is also compatible with scripture. This is sort of my point–that the ultimate determining factor in what side you land on in this debate has to do with philosophical convictions more than anything. Of course, scripture can play a role in shaping those convictions (for example, Romans 9 can be a strong case for the Calvinist side of things), so the epistemology of all of this is not simple…
It seems to me that the essence of Calvinism is the idea that God “picks” some for salvation, while not picking others. To a Calvinist, the fundamental reason that some are saved and that others are not is because that is what God chooses to happen. To Calvinists, to say otherwise is to assert some form of inherent righteousness of those that are saved. I see the logic of their position, but I don’t think they realize that more basic philosophical assumptions are at play when they posit such a necessary connection. To me, the assertion that Calvinists make is a valid logical inference from the nature of free grace and predestination, as revealed in scripture, COMBINED with a deterministic philosophical outlook (an outlook that is not forced on us by scripture).
I fully support everything Calvinists say about the free nature of grace, about the free gift of salvation, about how none of it depends on anything we do, but on God’s work for us. I completely go along with everything the bible says about election, about how God chose us in him, predestined us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. But when I come upon the Calvinist explanation for all of this, that the question of who is saved and who is damned comes down to a simple choice made by God, I stop short. I will not assert this; I simply don’t believe, despite the scriptural arguments of Calvinists, despite Romans 9, that God actually wants me to think this about him. I pray that if I’m wrong, God will forgive me for it.
When it comes down to the question of why, why some people accept God’s grace, and are saved by him, and others are not, I confess that on the most basic level, I simply don’t know. I would rather confess ignorance there than say that people go to hell because that’s what God chose for them–I can’t imagine that God would ever want me to assert this. As far as what the actual explanation is, I lean towards believing in a “free will” such as what I described–one that is somehow behind and prior to all that is obviously determined, including things like election, predestination, and God’s sovereignty that are mentioned in scripture.
Alexander M Jordan on 07 Aug 2008 at 10:33 am #
Hi Phil:
You wrote:
“To me, the assertion that Calvinists make is a valid logical inference from the nature of free grace and predestination, as revealed in scripture, COMBINED with a deterministic philosophical outlook (an outlook that is not forced on us by scripture).”
I agree with the first part of your statement, that Calvinists make valid logical inferences about free grace and predestination that are drawn from Scripture. But if their position is from Scripture, why object to it as deterministic?
In John 6, Jesus Himself addresses this issue of why some believe and others do not. Jesus taught the crowd that was following Him, saying, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” The context, seen from the previous verse, is faith or belief (”you have seen me and yet do not believe”).
Jesus then goes on to make very provocative statements about Himself– “I am the bread of life (John 6: 35, 41)” and also, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” (John 6:53-58)
These hard to understand statements caused many Jews to grumble against Him, and even many of His disciples “turned back and no longer walked with him”(v.67).
Again, in the context of why some believe in Him and others do not, Jesus explains to the Twelve, “But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”(John 6:64-65)
So Jesus’ teaching on the subject of who will believe on Him is very direct and clear– all that the Father gives Him will come to Him (i.e., believe), and no one can come to Him (or believe) unless it is granted by the Father.
It seems that it is the philosophical stance you are taking that causes you to object to these unambiguous statements.
You write:
“I fully support everything Calvinists say about the free nature of grace, about the free gift of salvation, about how none of it depends on anything we do, but on God’s work for us. I completely go along with everything the bible says about election, about how God chose us in him, predestined us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. But when I come upon the Calvinist explanation for all of this, that the question of who is saved and who is damned comes down to a simple choice made by God, I stop short. I will not assert this; I simply don’t believe, despite the scriptural arguments of Calvinists, despite Romans 9, that God actually wants me to think this about him. I pray that if I’m wrong, God will forgive me for it.”
Your own words demonstrate how your philosophical bias (against believing that God chooses some and not others–something you seem to acknowledge the Bible says) is what causes you to reject what the reformed or Calvinist position.
I sympathize with the fact that it is difficult to understand God’s method of election and reconcile this with our notions of who God is as a loving God, but they way I personally do so is to consider that if God, who is holy, fair, righteous and good, Has designed salvation in this fashion, then it must be best, even if I cannot yet fully grasp all of the implications of His design.
To object to such statements as these of Jesus Himself and to reject the argument of Romans 9 and other biblical passages which you seem to think support Calvinist contentions, because somehow you find the notion of a God who works in this way unpalatable, seems to pit your own philosophical bias against the teaching of Scripture, which ironically is the very thing you are accusing Calvinism of doing.
May the Lord grant us all more insight into these difficult things.
Blessings,
Alex
Susan on 07 Aug 2008 at 12:20 pm #
Alex, well put! I’ve often sensed, when in conversation with someone of an Arminian persuasion, that when it comes right down to it their objection to Calvinism is visceral not scriptural.
And, in addition to those passages there is the statement which Jesus made to His Jewish countrymen: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him…”
Jordan's View on 07 Aug 2008 at 12:53 pm #
Gentle Conversation about Calvinism?…
…For example, discussions of the challenging issue of whether man has “free will” to choose God, a topic often part of quite contentious Arminianism versus Calvinism debates, is being discussed over at Parchment and Pen. C. Michael Patton recently …
phil on 07 Aug 2008 at 6:06 pm #
Alexander,
I think you may have misunderstood my central statement; I’m sorry if I didn’t word it clearly enough. I wrote:
“To me, the assertion that Calvinists make is a valid logical inference from the nature of free grace and predestination, as revealed in scripture, COMBINED with a deterministic philosophical outlook (an outlook that is not forced on us by scripture).”
To which you responded:
“I agree with the first part of your statement, that Calvinists make valid logical inferences about free grace and predestination that are drawn from Scripture. But if their position is from Scripture, why object to it as deterministic?”
To make clear what I meant, here I’ll label:
A. The revelation of scripture regarding grace and predestination.
B. A deterministic philosophy.
C. Calvinism.
The word “COMBINED” connects the first part of my statement to the second. I’m saying “(A and B) implies C” and you are saying “I agree with you that “A implies (B and C).” Sorry! I could have perhaps said it better, by writing things in the proper order. I’m saying that an unavoidable valid logical inference to Calvinism follows from what is revealed in scripture ONLY when it is taken along with a certain philosophical outlook. Drop that philosophical outlook, and Calvinism remains only one of at least two different possibilities.
Alexander M Jordan on 08 Aug 2008 at 11:35 am #
Hi Phil:
I’m pretty sure I did understand your original statement. But I was attempting to make the claim that the logical inferences Calvinism makes are not created by commitment to a particular philosophical outlook apart from Scripture but rather, drawn from Scripture.
You affirm that the Calvinistic logical inferences from Scripture are valid, but argue against their conclusions by positing that they must be combined with a deterministic philosophical outlook. Yet you have not shown how you know Calvinists have a deterministic philosophical outlook
and it seems only that since you disagree with the Calvinistic conclusions, you surmise that they must have a deterministic predisposition they bring to their interpretation of Scripture. What seems contradictory is that at the same time you affirm their statements as logical and seemingly also justified by Scripture.
Perhaps you might see then, how one might draw the conclusion about your argument that you are uncomfortable with what Calvinism suggests, but not because its un-biblical, but rather because of your own (philosophical?) commitment to certain beliefs about the nature of God:
“… when I come upon the Calvinist explanation for all of this, that the question of who is saved and who is damned comes down to a simple choice made by God, I stop short. I will not assert this; I simply don’t believe, despite the scriptural arguments of Calvinists, despite Romans 9, that God actually wants me to think this about him. I pray that if I’m wrong, God will forgive me for it.”
God is Love. Does a God who is loving allow people to go to hell? Yes, the Bible says. Could He not have prevented this by saving all, or by fashioning us in such a way that all would choose Christ? Perhaps, but this is not the picture described in Scripture. Instead we find that all mankind has sinfully chosen to go its own way, and so condemned itself, but that God rescues many from their deserved end, choosing us from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-12) and mercifully and powerfully making sure to save completely those whom He has so chosen (Romans 8: 29-30, Heb 7:25).
Such a portrait of salvation perhaps does not seem fair, according to our way of thinking. The driving force behind the free-will argument seems to be a desire to defend God as both loving and fair in His scheme of saving people. Perhaps a free-will choice, in regard to the gospel of Christ, would make God fair– for then it would be our own fault if we don’t choose Him? I see that the Bible does affirm that our choices indeed have consequences that we bear responsibility for. At the same time, I also see how, apart from the Holy Spirit, no one will or can choose (come to) Christ, as I pointed out in my previous comments.
Blessings,
Alex
phil on 08 Aug 2008 at 4:10 pm #
Alexander:
You wrote,
“I’m pretty sure I did understand your original statement.”
Respectfully, I still believe that you did not; in my last post, I explained the manner in which you misunderstood me, and I take responsibility for it, because I don’t think I’ve been totally clear. Let me try to be as clear as possible: I do not think that the uniquely Calvinist conclusions about the nature of election follow from scripture. I think that they follow from what scripture does reveal about election (which I affirm as true, but believe it is less than what Calvinists think is revealed), COMBINED a philosophical predisposition towards determinism, a predisposition that generates the uniquely Calvinist conclusions about the nature of election. Thus I agree with what much of what Calvinists say, but not all of it. It would take me some time to develop the specifics of this viewpoint, but this is my basic stance.
“Perhaps you might see then, how one might draw the conclusion about your argument that you are uncomfortable with what Calvinism suggests, but not because its un-biblical, but rather because of your own (philosophical?) commitment to certain beliefs about the nature of God:”
Yes, I said this myself. I grant Calvinism is biblical, meaning it doesn’t obviously contradict scripture. That doesn’t mean it is true. Lots of false things don’t obviously contradict scripture.
“The driving force behind the free-will argument seems to be a desire to defend God as both loving and fair in His scheme of saving people.”
Not exactly. It would be fair to say that such a desire is the driving motivation behind me refusing to affirm what the Calvinist affirms about God’s choice of people for salvation or damnation. And it is a perfectly valid motivation: God is loving and fair. This is clearly revealed in scripture; any theology you develop cannot contradict this. I don’t have to make a “free-will argument” to object to the Calvinst view of election. I confess, I don’t know why some people are saved and others are not. But I also don’t think God wants me to go around saying that it was because he chose some for salvation and others for damnation. I don’t think he has revealed this to us; I think Calvinism goes too far.
Alexander M Jordan on 08 Aug 2008 at 9:18 pm #
Hi Phil:
Thanks for clarifying your position. I believe though that you have not yet presented specific arguments to show exactly how or why you think Calvinists necessarily bring a certain predisposition towards Scripture that generates their particular (false?) conclusions. It is my contention that the Calvinist position is a fair reading of Scripture, and doesn’t require this predisposition to arrive at its conclusions. But I realize that neither have I fully presented this position here; maybe such detailed arguments are better presented elsewhere (such as in a new blog article).
Actually on my own blog I did start some time ago a series of articles attempting to contrast the Arminian vs Reformed position on the five points of TULIP, defending the Calvinistic view while at the same time, trying to present Arminian arguments/position accurately. I was attempting to make the series a kind of thorough primer on the topic. Unfortunately I became bogged down in trying to answer many objections, and sort of lost momentum in the project, which I then set aside. I have been meaning to return to it for a long time. Perhaps by resuming the series I’d be able to develop and present my thoughts and arguments most fully. I’d welcome articulate and thoughtful comments, such as you’ve presented here.
Blessings,
Alex
phil on 09 Aug 2008 at 12:21 am #
Alexander,
I’d be interested in commenting, and also trying to develop the position I’ve stated here in actual detail. I think what I want to articulate might seem a lot less Arminian than what Calvinists are used to from “free will” advocates, and actually encapsulates what is best about Calvinism. I’d like to write something up; maybe post it myself on a blog, if I ever start one. I’ll definitely be interested in interacting with your series if you decide to continue it. Thanks for the thoughtful conversation–I look forward to reading your series.
Phil
damaag on 13 Aug 2008 at 1:38 am #
To even consider a dog might starve to death with two bowls of food in front of him is funny. Why stop at the two dishes. What about each morsel of food in the dish? Just because a dog eats out of a given dish that doesn’t prove God tipped the scales or forced him to. Could God have created the dog with the ability to choose on its own? Here is where hard Calvinists choose to ignore parts of the Bible.
Hard Calvinists create other problems, what about love. A robot can’t love. Love requires freewill. So telling someone to love, choose, turn, repent means nothing to some one who can’t.
Is this how we live? No. If you try and comfort someone who has lost a babe, would you say their baby is in heaven? King David’s statement was only for his babe. Why not tell the parents the truth? Their babies first thoughts could be it waking up in hell.
Maybe some Calvinists think in the same mixed up way as the dog example, that I prove their case. I as stated earlier I am predetermined not to be a predeterminalist.
Thaimissions on 05 Oct 2008 at 11:14 pm #
I would like to add a new wrinkle to this issue. Let’s consider Israel and God’s election of Israel. What is the nature of that election? while trying to be short and to the point it seems that God elected Israel, yet not all of Israel was true Israel. Only those that trusted the promise of God were true Israel. Why is it that Israel was totally depraved like we are, Israel was “selected” yet some still chose to follow the world, idols etc…? We are obviously depraved, but in some manner still able to choose to believe or not. Just a word of clarification, without the Word of God it would be impossible to make that choice.
Alexander M Jordan on 06 Oct 2008 at 7:24 am #
Hi Thaimissions,
In regard to the question of why Israel, though chosen as a nation, had only some who believed in the Messiah, I think Romans 11: 4-8 gives a clear answer:
“I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
The remnant are chosen by God through grace, and not on the basis of their own choice/belief. “The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened”. This clearly describes that God is sovereign in the matter of who believes and who doesn’t, it seems to me.