The parable of the seed/sower illustrates this principle very well. There is a response to the Gospel in each case (that which all of us might initially see as a person’s conversion), but as life moves on it becomes apparent that the person is not a true convert after all… they fall away (Christ of course sees the true spiritual status of a person regardless of their outward profession… the rest of us might not question this until later).

Billy Graham was once asked: “How many people received Christ at your last crusade?”. His response was: “I don’t know. Ask me in ten years.”
Billy understood well that outward profession doesn’t guarantee that a person is a true convert.

So, as you have said, simple childlike faith is required… but this faith must be in the true Jesus…. from a humbled heart.

As to your last question:
“I would be interested in thoughts of what it means to disciple a person or what does it mean to be disciple?”

You might not have been asking ME, since I already spoke to this, but…

As I see it, a disciple IS a true convert; a Spirit indwelt person, a follower of Christ.

To disciple a convert (verb), is to teach them from God’s word.

Don’t you think that people well discipled
can fall away from the faith? I have found
that many Christians theologians don’t have
good answers for the questions people
are asking about the Bible. Many create
whole circular theologies to defend the seemingly
indefensible. For instance:

What can we pray for? Jesus said that whatever we
ask in his name he will do. Think of something that
you know is in his will and pray for it. Will
it be done? Why not? Then what is the nature
of prayer?

Does one truly and fully understand everything about the gospel and Christ at conversion? I think you would agree and say ‘no’. All I knew is that Jesus was my Savior that died for my sins and I needed forgiveness. That is basic, but there was a lot more I needed to grow in and learn since - the Lordship of Christ, the kingdom of God, the work of the Holy Spirit (in salvation and everyday life), etc. I know you would say these are peripheral to the gospel. But I am not so sure I, or many, fit your description of ‘correctly understanding who Jesus is and why He matters’. It was very simple, child-like faith for us.

I think we are all on the same page, whether we say convert and disciple are the same thing or they are to be distinguished. I think Michael was making that point that we are not just to ‘get them in’ by seeing them converted, but we are to continue to see them grow and discipled. Disciple simply means ‘learn’, so one being ‘discipled’ is one learning, and discipleship simply points to the process of learning.

I would be interested in thoughts of what it means to disciple a person or what does it mean to be a disciple?

Rather than not believing enough in God, I think many people believe “too much” about God, inventing a number of things to believe in - some of which you have mentioned. When one of these invented beliefs fails, they don’t know enough about the real God to simply make theological corrections. Instead, they throw the proverbial baby out with the bath.

As you have stated, we have a responsibility to teach the True God. We should also not be afraid to leave a few mysteries out there, rather than trying to fit God into our neat little boxes. If people can deal with mysteries, then I think they’re better able to maintain faith in the face of these other questions.

“Are we about making disciples or making converts?”

I believe that a true convert is a disciple by definition….. the way that Jesus used the term. You can’t say that a convert is not a disciple. We use the word discipleship. That word is not in the Bible. We use the word discipleship to describe the teaching process involved in training a person after they have entered God’s family.

That process is included in Christ’s Great Commission. ” Go, make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, TEACHING them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

First, we make disciples= new converts (Spirit indwelt)
Second, we baptize them
Third, we teach them

I mention this because I sometimes hear people wanting to leave out the evangelism process in favor of “discipling”. Often they quote the Great Commission to support this thought (I realize that Michael was not doing this, but I’ve heard this sort of reasoning).

It is critical that the Gospel first be correctly understood and responded to with “saving faith”. Far too often people come to Jesus under false premiss … not having correctly understood who Jesus is and why He matters (as Michael has well explained). Such a person is NOT a convert, therefore they are not a disciple.

“In summary, the church needs to look long and hard at it’s current Gospel discharge methods….bad theology allowed, form the bed that we have made”

YES! I believe that many churches today fail to teach long time disciples the need to, and how to correctly share the Gospel. The message is simple, but if the essentials aren’t correctly stated, this can lead to false conversion. Too many want to leave out the part about sin…. really making people see their predicament of guilt before a just judge (Jesus), or they don’t want to mention Hell. The Gospel isn’t good news until people understand the bad news. Can you have eternal life by accepting Jesus if you aren’t really convicted about your sin??…. the conviction that the Holy Spirit brings? Some claim to be saved on less than that.

A true Spirit indwelt convert IS a disciple, who needs to be taught to “obey all that Christ has commanded” (discipled). But, also, a true disciple is taught by the Holy Spirit, who brings about one’s sanctification. This is true of all genuine disciples.

Thank you so much for this and I am so very sorry to hear about your sister and the disillusionment of your mother.

You may appreciate the overview of Justin Peters’ seminar given at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He speaks with expertise on the name it/claim it gospel and on making merchandise of God’s people. You can see the overview at: http://www.justinpeters.org and be sure to click “demo.”

Mr. Peters gave this seminar at my church and comes recommended by my pastor, Dr. John MacArthur.

But the concept is the same, it is the unnecessary stumbling block to the cross that we find in so many of these areas.

Good job!