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	<title>Comments on: Why I Don’t Buy the Roman Catholic Interpretation of John 6 in Defense of Transubstantiation</title>
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	<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/</link>
	<description>Making Theology Accessible</description>
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		<title>By: dudley davis</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4186</link>
		<dc:creator>dudley davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 04:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4186</guid>
		<description>I am an ex roman catholic and now a Reformed Protestant. I wrote another roman catholic considering converting to the Reformed Protestant faith the following regarding John 6. I wrote Roman Catholics interpret this passage literally, and apply its message to the Lord’s Supper, which they title the “Eucharist” or “Mass.” Those who reject the idea of transubstantiation interpret Jesus’ words in John 6:53-57 figuratively or symbolically. How can we know which interpretation is correct? Thankfully, Jesus made it exceedingly obvious what He meant. John 6:63 declares, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” Jesus specifically stated that His words are “spirit.” Jesus was using physical concepts, eating and drinking, to teach spiritual truth. Just as consuming physical food and drink sustains our physical bodies, so are our spiritual lives saved and built up by spiritually receiving Him, by grace through faith. Eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood are symbols of fully and completely receiving Him in our lives.

The Scriptures declare that the Lord&#039;s Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25), not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood. When Jesus was speaking in John chapter 6, Jesus had not yet had the Last Supper with His disciples, in which He instituted the Lord’s Supper</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an ex roman catholic and now a Reformed Protestant. I wrote another roman catholic considering converting to the Reformed Protestant faith the following regarding John 6. I wrote Roman Catholics interpret this passage literally, and apply its message to the Lord’s Supper, which they title the “Eucharist” or “Mass.” Those who reject the idea of transubstantiation interpret Jesus’ words in John 6:53-57 figuratively or symbolically. How can we know which interpretation is correct? Thankfully, Jesus made it exceedingly obvious what He meant. John 6:63 declares, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” Jesus specifically stated that His words are “spirit.” Jesus was using physical concepts, eating and drinking, to teach spiritual truth. Just as consuming physical food and drink sustains our physical bodies, so are our spiritual lives saved and built up by spiritually receiving Him, by grace through faith. Eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood are symbols of fully and completely receiving Him in our lives.</p>
<p>The Scriptures declare that the Lord&#8217;s Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25), not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood. When Jesus was speaking in John chapter 6, Jesus had not yet had the Last Supper with His disciples, in which He instituted the Lord’s Supper</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: dudley davis</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4185</link>
		<dc:creator>dudley davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4185</guid>
		<description>Worthy receivers, outwardly taking the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive them inwardly and spiritually by faith, truly and in fact, but not carnally and corporally, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of His death. The body and blood of Christ is not present corporally or carnally but it is spiritually present to the faith of believers in the ordinance, just as the elements are present to their outward senses.

All ignorant and ungodly persons who are unfit to enjoy communion with Christ are equally unworthy of the Lord&#039;s Table, and therefore cannot without great sin against Him, take a share in these holy mysteries or be admitted to the Supper while they remain in that condition. Indeed those who receive (the elements) unworthily, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgement to themselves.

In faith.
Dudley</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Worthy receivers, outwardly taking the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive them inwardly and spiritually by faith, truly and in fact, but not carnally and corporally, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of His death. The body and blood of Christ is not present corporally or carnally but it is spiritually present to the faith of believers in the ordinance, just as the elements are present to their outward senses.</p>
<p>All ignorant and ungodly persons who are unfit to enjoy communion with Christ are equally unworthy of the Lord&#8217;s Table, and therefore cannot without great sin against Him, take a share in these holy mysteries or be admitted to the Supper while they remain in that condition. Indeed those who receive (the elements) unworthily, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgement to themselves.</p>
<p>In faith.<br />
Dudley</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: dudley davis</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4184</link>
		<dc:creator>dudley davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4184</guid>
		<description>Alan,

I as a reformed Protestant and Presbyterian believe the following concerning the Lords Supper. I was never comfortable with the adoration aspect of the Eucharist as roman catholics call it. I experienced a “true Protestant conversion as John Calvin also a fromer roman catholic described. I understand your position but please try to understand what I most fervently believe now as a Protestant.

The Lord&#039;s Supper
The Supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by Him the same night on which He was betrayed to be observed in His churches until the end of the world for the perpetual remembrance, and showing forth of the sacrifice of Himself in His death. It was also instituted by Christ to confirm believers in all the benefits of His death; - for their spiritual nourishment and growth in Him; - for their further engagement in and commitment to all the duties which they owe to Him; - and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with Him and with their fellow believers.

In this sacrament Christ is not offered up to His Father, nor is there any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin (of the living or the dead). There is only a memorial of that one offering up of Christ by Himself upon the cross once for all, the memorial being accompanied by a spiritual oblation of all possible praise to God for Calvary. Therefore, the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, being injurious to Christ&#039;s own sacrifice, which is the only propitiation for all the sins of the elect.

The Lord Jesus has, in this sacrament, appointed His ministers to pray and bless the elements of bread and wine (so setting them apart from a common to a holy use) and to take and break the bread, then to take the cup, and to give both to the communicants, also communicating themselves.

The denial of the cup to the people, the practices of worshipping the elements, lifting them up or carrying them about for adoration, or reserving them for any pretended religious use, are all contrary to the nature of this ordinance, and to the institution of Christ.

The outward elements in this sacrament  which are correctly set apart and used as Christ ordained, so closely portray Him as crucified, that they are sometimes truly (but figuratively) referred to in terms of the things they represent, such as the body and blood of Christ. However in substance and nature they still remain truly and only bread and wine as they were before.

The doctrine commonly called transubstantiation, which maintains that a change occurs in the substance of the bread and wine into the substance of Christ&#039;s body and blood, when consecrated by a priest or by any other way, is repugnant not only to Scripture but even to common sense and reason. It overthrows the nature of the ordinance, and both has been and is the cause of a host of superstitions and of gross idolatries.

Worthy receivers, outwardly taking the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan,</p>
<p>I as a reformed Protestant and Presbyterian believe the following concerning the Lords Supper. I was never comfortable with the adoration aspect of the Eucharist as roman catholics call it. I experienced a “true Protestant conversion as John Calvin also a fromer roman catholic described. I understand your position but please try to understand what I most fervently believe now as a Protestant.</p>
<p>The Lord&#8217;s Supper<br />
The Supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by Him the same night on which He was betrayed to be observed in His churches until the end of the world for the perpetual remembrance, and showing forth of the sacrifice of Himself in His death. It was also instituted by Christ to confirm believers in all the benefits of His death; &#8211; for their spiritual nourishment and growth in Him; &#8211; for their further engagement in and commitment to all the duties which they owe to Him; &#8211; and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with Him and with their fellow believers.</p>
<p>In this sacrament Christ is not offered up to His Father, nor is there any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin (of the living or the dead). There is only a memorial of that one offering up of Christ by Himself upon the cross once for all, the memorial being accompanied by a spiritual oblation of all possible praise to God for Calvary. Therefore, the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, being injurious to Christ&#8217;s own sacrifice, which is the only propitiation for all the sins of the elect.</p>
<p>The Lord Jesus has, in this sacrament, appointed His ministers to pray and bless the elements of bread and wine (so setting them apart from a common to a holy use) and to take and break the bread, then to take the cup, and to give both to the communicants, also communicating themselves.</p>
<p>The denial of the cup to the people, the practices of worshipping the elements, lifting them up or carrying them about for adoration, or reserving them for any pretended religious use, are all contrary to the nature of this ordinance, and to the institution of Christ.</p>
<p>The outward elements in this sacrament  which are correctly set apart and used as Christ ordained, so closely portray Him as crucified, that they are sometimes truly (but figuratively) referred to in terms of the things they represent, such as the body and blood of Christ. However in substance and nature they still remain truly and only bread and wine as they were before.</p>
<p>The doctrine commonly called transubstantiation, which maintains that a change occurs in the substance of the bread and wine into the substance of Christ&#8217;s body and blood, when consecrated by a priest or by any other way, is repugnant not only to Scripture but even to common sense and reason. It overthrows the nature of the ordinance, and both has been and is the cause of a host of superstitions and of gross idolatries.</p>
<p>Worthy receivers, outwardly taking the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dudley davis</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4183</link>
		<dc:creator>dudley davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4183</guid>
		<description>When I was a Roman catholic I was taught that the Protestants and particularly Reformed Protestants, Baptists and Presbyterians abandoned the true essence of the sacrament of the Eucharist which I now prefer to call &quot;The Lords Supper.&quot; My study of John Calvin opened my eyes that it was the roman catholic church that abandoned and then corrupted the true nature of the sacrament. I was never comfortable with the adoration of the catholic wafer bread even when I was a roman catholic. R C&#039;s believe that the rc wafer becomes the body of Christ. I believe now that the bread and wine or juice of the Lords Supper Are Symbols, and not at all the actual body and blood of Christ.

To adore the bread wafer outside the celebration of the Lords Supper is a total distortion of the sacrament itself. I now think the rc mass is actually an abomination and injury to Christ&#039;s once only sacrifice on Calvary.

Too many cradle Protestants do not understand the blasphemes rc teaching of transubstantiation and the abomination that is the rc mass because it denies the one time only needed sacrifice of Christ on Calvary and it does teach that the bread wafer is transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus which then they reserve in a tabernacle and worship in a golden monstrance in a service outside the celebration of the Lords Supper.

Watch EWTN and watch the abominable benediction of the wafer in a golden monstrance. Christ is not in the bread. We Protestants worship Christ and experience his presence in His Supper, RC are worshiping a piece of bread they believe was turned into Christ by their priest in the Roman mass. John Calvin renounced the teaching and the mass and I also did when I left Roman Catholicism and converted to the reformed Protestant faith.
__________________
Dudley</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was a Roman catholic I was taught that the Protestants and particularly Reformed Protestants, Baptists and Presbyterians abandoned the true essence of the sacrament of the Eucharist which I now prefer to call &#8220;The Lords Supper.&#8221; My study of John Calvin opened my eyes that it was the roman catholic church that abandoned and then corrupted the true nature of the sacrament. I was never comfortable with the adoration of the catholic wafer bread even when I was a roman catholic. R C&#8217;s believe that the rc wafer becomes the body of Christ. I believe now that the bread and wine or juice of the Lords Supper Are Symbols, and not at all the actual body and blood of Christ.</p>
<p>To adore the bread wafer outside the celebration of the Lords Supper is a total distortion of the sacrament itself. I now think the rc mass is actually an abomination and injury to Christ&#8217;s once only sacrifice on Calvary.</p>
<p>Too many cradle Protestants do not understand the blasphemes rc teaching of transubstantiation and the abomination that is the rc mass because it denies the one time only needed sacrifice of Christ on Calvary and it does teach that the bread wafer is transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus which then they reserve in a tabernacle and worship in a golden monstrance in a service outside the celebration of the Lords Supper.</p>
<p>Watch EWTN and watch the abominable benediction of the wafer in a golden monstrance. Christ is not in the bread. We Protestants worship Christ and experience his presence in His Supper, RC are worshiping a piece of bread they believe was turned into Christ by their priest in the Roman mass. John Calvin renounced the teaching and the mass and I also did when I left Roman Catholicism and converted to the reformed Protestant faith.<br />
__________________<br />
Dudley</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: dudley davis</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4182</link>
		<dc:creator>dudley davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4182</guid>
		<description>Paul, as every Bible reader is aware, directed Titus to &quot;ordain elders in every city&quot; in Crete (Titus 1:5), as he himself had been in the habit of doing &quot;in every church&quot; on his missionary tours (Acts 14: 23). Notice that word &quot;elders&quot;, if you will, for in it the whole subject comes to a focus. The Greek word which lies behind it, if we turn it into English letters and Anglicize it, is presbyter, from which, of course, we have the noun and adjective Presbyterian. The elders or presbyters were the teaching and ruling officers of the New Testament church as it came from the hands of Christ and the Apostles. The teaching elders were also called &quot;ministers&quot; (1 Cor. 3:5; 4:1), and &quot;preachers&quot; (1 Tim. 2:7). Ordinarily, therefore, for brevity’s sake, we drop the words &quot;teaching&quot; and &quot;ruling&quot;, and designate these two classes of presbyters more simply as &quot;ministers and elders&quot;. But since they were all of them &quot;elders&quot; or &quot;presbyters&quot;, the whole Apostolic Church was Presbyterian, and nothing else than Presbyterian, in its original organization. Its government was a government by presbyters.


&quot;III. The outward matter thereof, or Signes, are Bread and Wine.
IV. The Supper is lame, without both Signes; and to rob the people of the Cup, is Sacrilege.
V. The inward matter is Christ, with all his satisfaction and merit.
VI. As it is Jewish superstition, to use unleavened Bread; so the Popish Penny-wafers are superstitious reliques.
VII. Its outward form consists in Actions and Words.
VIII. The Actions are the breaking of Bread, and powring out of Wine; the distribution of both Signes, and the receiving thereof with the hand and mouth.
IX. The word is, the whole Institution, containing the Eucharist, the command, and the promise; but the promise chiefly.&quot;—John

In Faith,
Dudley</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, as every Bible reader is aware, directed Titus to &#8220;ordain elders in every city&#8221; in Crete (Titus 1:5), as he himself had been in the habit of doing &#8220;in every church&#8221; on his missionary tours (Acts 14: 23). Notice that word &#8220;elders&#8221;, if you will, for in it the whole subject comes to a focus. The Greek word which lies behind it, if we turn it into English letters and Anglicize it, is presbyter, from which, of course, we have the noun and adjective Presbyterian. The elders or presbyters were the teaching and ruling officers of the New Testament church as it came from the hands of Christ and the Apostles. The teaching elders were also called &#8220;ministers&#8221; (1 Cor. 3:5; 4:1), and &#8220;preachers&#8221; (1 Tim. 2:7). Ordinarily, therefore, for brevity’s sake, we drop the words &#8220;teaching&#8221; and &#8220;ruling&#8221;, and designate these two classes of presbyters more simply as &#8220;ministers and elders&#8221;. But since they were all of them &#8220;elders&#8221; or &#8220;presbyters&#8221;, the whole Apostolic Church was Presbyterian, and nothing else than Presbyterian, in its original organization. Its government was a government by presbyters.</p>
<p>&#8220;III. The outward matter thereof, or Signes, are Bread and Wine.<br />
IV. The Supper is lame, without both Signes; and to rob the people of the Cup, is Sacrilege.<br />
V. The inward matter is Christ, with all his satisfaction and merit.<br />
VI. As it is Jewish superstition, to use unleavened Bread; so the Popish Penny-wafers are superstitious reliques.<br />
VII. Its outward form consists in Actions and Words.<br />
VIII. The Actions are the breaking of Bread, and powring out of Wine; the distribution of both Signes, and the receiving thereof with the hand and mouth.<br />
IX. The word is, the whole Institution, containing the Eucharist, the command, and the promise; but the promise chiefly.&#8221;—John</p>
<p>In Faith,<br />
Dudley</p>
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		<title>By: dudley davis</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4181</link>
		<dc:creator>dudley davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4181</guid>
		<description>The following pieces attest to why I believe I became a Presbyterian. The early church was Presbyterian…read the following for your self. Rome and popery corrupted the church the bible and the 2 sacraments of the Lords Supper and baptism. Then they added other sacraments not instituted by Christ and even added books to the holy bible.

&quot;The Papists think the Protestant Doctrine is dangerous to Salvation; and the Protestants know the Popish Doctrine to be so.&quot;—Matthew Poole, The Nullity of the Romish Faith. (1666.).


And they overcame (the Devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;
“and they loved not their lives unto the death.-REVELATION 12:11.
Played by the Scots army when it marched into England under Alexander Lesley, Earl of Leven,
in 1640, 26,000 strong.
When to the kirk [church] we come,
We&#039;ll purge it ilka [every] room,
Frae [from] Popish reliques, and a&#039; [all] sic [such] innovation,
That a&#039; [all] the world may see,
There&#039;s nane [none] in the right but we,
Of the auld [old] Scottish nation.”
-LESLEY&#039;S MARCH.


The name which the Bible gives to this holy sacrament is &quot;the Lord’s Supper&quot; (1 Cor. 11:20), and that it speaks of communicants as a band of Christians who gather at &quot;the Lord’s table&quot; (1 Cor. 10:21). In these verses the Holy Spirit, by the pen of Paul, teaches us that when we come to &quot;the Lord’s table&quot; &quot;to eat the Lord’s Supper&quot;, we &quot;cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils&quot;, nor &quot;be partakers of the Lord’s table and of the table of devils&quot;. The Lord’s table is not for everybody. Only Christians are to gather there; for while a person may sit at &quot;the Lord’s table&quot; with &quot;the cup of the Lord&quot; in one hand and &quot;the cup of devils&quot; in the other, and be perfectly acceptable to Satan, he cannot do things in that way and be acceptable to Christ. The Holy Spirit makes it clear that the Lord is particular, very particular, about the kind of people who shall sit at His table.

The Lord’s Supper is to be eaten at the Lord’s table, in the Lord’s house, by the Lord’s people, under the direct supervision and watchful oversight of the Lord’s officers, who in every instance are to apply the Lord’s law, without &quot;respect to persons&quot;.

Perhaps you are wondering what Paul meant by the &quot;cup&quot; and &quot;table&quot; of devils. A sentence or so will explain what he refers to. In that age social guilds and labor unions were very numerous—even more numerous, it would seem, than they are today. Each had its god, its sacrifices, its secrets which were called &quot;mysteries&quot;, and its festivals. At their festivals the members sacrificed to the divinity of which they had chosen to be the &quot;patron saints&quot;, and drank to the god of their guild. From this you can see why Paul speaks of the &quot;cup&quot; and &quot;table&quot; of devils, and says that in such institutions the members sacrificed &quot;to devils, and not to God&quot;.


Paul, as every Bible...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The following pieces attest to why I believe I became a Presbyterian. The early church was Presbyterian…read the following for your self. Rome and popery corrupted the church the bible and the 2 sacraments of the Lords Supper and baptism. Then they added other sacraments not instituted by Christ and even added books to the holy bible.</p>
<p>&#8220;The Papists think the Protestant Doctrine is dangerous to Salvation; and the Protestants know the Popish Doctrine to be so.&#8221;—Matthew Poole, The Nullity of the Romish Faith. (1666.).</p>
<p>And they overcame (the Devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;<br />
“and they loved not their lives unto the death.-REVELATION 12:11.<br />
Played by the Scots army when it marched into England under Alexander Lesley, Earl of Leven,<br />
in 1640, 26,000 strong.<br />
When to the kirk [church] we come,<br />
We&#8217;ll purge it ilka [every] room,<br />
Frae [from] Popish reliques, and a&#8217; [all] sic [such] innovation,<br />
That a&#8217; [all] the world may see,<br />
There&#8217;s nane [none] in the right but we,<br />
Of the auld [old] Scottish nation.”<br />
-LESLEY&#8217;S MARCH.</p>
<p>The name which the Bible gives to this holy sacrament is &#8220;the Lord’s Supper&#8221; (1 Cor. 11:20), and that it speaks of communicants as a band of Christians who gather at &#8220;the Lord’s table&#8221; (1 Cor. 10:21). In these verses the Holy Spirit, by the pen of Paul, teaches us that when we come to &#8220;the Lord’s table&#8221; &#8220;to eat the Lord’s Supper&#8221;, we &#8220;cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils&#8221;, nor &#8220;be partakers of the Lord’s table and of the table of devils&#8221;. The Lord’s table is not for everybody. Only Christians are to gather there; for while a person may sit at &#8220;the Lord’s table&#8221; with &#8220;the cup of the Lord&#8221; in one hand and &#8220;the cup of devils&#8221; in the other, and be perfectly acceptable to Satan, he cannot do things in that way and be acceptable to Christ. The Holy Spirit makes it clear that the Lord is particular, very particular, about the kind of people who shall sit at His table.</p>
<p>The Lord’s Supper is to be eaten at the Lord’s table, in the Lord’s house, by the Lord’s people, under the direct supervision and watchful oversight of the Lord’s officers, who in every instance are to apply the Lord’s law, without &#8220;respect to persons&#8221;.</p>
<p>Perhaps you are wondering what Paul meant by the &#8220;cup&#8221; and &#8220;table&#8221; of devils. A sentence or so will explain what he refers to. In that age social guilds and labor unions were very numerous—even more numerous, it would seem, than they are today. Each had its god, its sacrifices, its secrets which were called &#8220;mysteries&#8221;, and its festivals. At their festivals the members sacrificed to the divinity of which they had chosen to be the &#8220;patron saints&#8221;, and drank to the god of their guild. From this you can see why Paul speaks of the &#8220;cup&#8221; and &#8220;table&#8221; of devils, and says that in such institutions the members sacrificed &#8220;to devils, and not to God&#8221;.</p>
<p>Paul, as every Bible&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dudley davis</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4180</link>
		<dc:creator>dudley davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4180</guid>
		<description>A breif response to Alan:
I am now a reformed Presbyterian Protestant. However I was roman catholic until three years ago. I became a Presbyterian in 2007. I renounced roman catholicism and its teachings as well as their teaching on the sacraments. I now like Zwigli completely deny the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine, the roman catholic&#039;s call that transubstantiation. I also while denying that teaching do now believe as a Presbyterian that Christ makes himself present to us in His Supper spiritually because of our faith alone, sola fide. Roman Catholicism&#039;s salvation is by grace but declares that the church alone can dispense that grace and the only real church is the Roman Catholic church. ‘No Salvation Outside Roman Catholicism’ and Roman Catholic salvation is also an installment plan, where one must continue to receive the “sacraments,” go to weekly mass, and continue receiving the Jesus wafer from a priest as well as confessing your sins to the Roman priest.
I found the following piece to be very helpful when I was contemplating becoming a Presbyterian. I have adopted besides the Westminster standards and Confession of faith the teachings on Calvin, Kno\x and Zwigli and those three Protestant reformers had more of a basis on what I now believe as a Reformed Protestant and a Presbyterian. I was an Episcopalian for a while after leaving the roman catholic church, I also explored other Protestant denominations during my first year as a Protestant after leaving roman catholicism. I did not become a Lutheran for the same reasons Zwigli renounced Luther&#039;s teaching on the sacrament. I did attend services with a Methodist congregation for a brief period while exploring Protestantism. I was invited to the Lords Supper with them on one occasion, they open their table to all believers even if not yet officially a member of the Methodist church. I did like and think their position and teaching while very Protestant theologically on the Lords Supper that it is primarily a memorial, and not a sacrifice anew as roman catholicism teaches, the service of the Lords supper is a re-representation of the one and only needed sacrifice of Christ on Calvary for all who accept him in faith. I also believe that is a fine view for Protestants to take even Reformed Protestants, as long as we see it as symbolic of Christs sacrifice and not the sacrifice which Rome claims and which I now and Reformed Protestants and Presbyterians reject. I did decide to become a Presbyterian because I believe like Calvin as well as Knox and Zwigli that the Roman church was so corrupted the only way to return to the truth was to renounce her and her pope and its false teachings and return the Gospel and the Church to its true roots and foundation and teachings. I am a Prebyterian becuse I came to believe the only way to return to the truth was to also renounce roman catholicism and all her apostate teachings.

The following pieces attest to why I believe I...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A breif response to Alan:<br />
I am now a reformed Presbyterian Protestant. However I was roman catholic until three years ago. I became a Presbyterian in 2007. I renounced roman catholicism and its teachings as well as their teaching on the sacraments. I now like Zwigli completely deny the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine, the roman catholic&#8217;s call that transubstantiation. I also while denying that teaching do now believe as a Presbyterian that Christ makes himself present to us in His Supper spiritually because of our faith alone, sola fide. Roman Catholicism&#8217;s salvation is by grace but declares that the church alone can dispense that grace and the only real church is the Roman Catholic church. ‘No Salvation Outside Roman Catholicism’ and Roman Catholic salvation is also an installment plan, where one must continue to receive the “sacraments,” go to weekly mass, and continue receiving the Jesus wafer from a priest as well as confessing your sins to the Roman priest.<br />
I found the following piece to be very helpful when I was contemplating becoming a Presbyterian. I have adopted besides the Westminster standards and Confession of faith the teachings on Calvin, Kno\x and Zwigli and those three Protestant reformers had more of a basis on what I now believe as a Reformed Protestant and a Presbyterian. I was an Episcopalian for a while after leaving the roman catholic church, I also explored other Protestant denominations during my first year as a Protestant after leaving roman catholicism. I did not become a Lutheran for the same reasons Zwigli renounced Luther&#8217;s teaching on the sacrament. I did attend services with a Methodist congregation for a brief period while exploring Protestantism. I was invited to the Lords Supper with them on one occasion, they open their table to all believers even if not yet officially a member of the Methodist church. I did like and think their position and teaching while very Protestant theologically on the Lords Supper that it is primarily a memorial, and not a sacrifice anew as roman catholicism teaches, the service of the Lords supper is a re-representation of the one and only needed sacrifice of Christ on Calvary for all who accept him in faith. I also believe that is a fine view for Protestants to take even Reformed Protestants, as long as we see it as symbolic of Christs sacrifice and not the sacrifice which Rome claims and which I now and Reformed Protestants and Presbyterians reject. I did decide to become a Presbyterian because I believe like Calvin as well as Knox and Zwigli that the Roman church was so corrupted the only way to return to the truth was to renounce her and her pope and its false teachings and return the Gospel and the Church to its true roots and foundation and teachings. I am a Prebyterian becuse I came to believe the only way to return to the truth was to also renounce roman catholicism and all her apostate teachings.</p>
<p>The following pieces attest to why I believe I&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: cheryl u</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4179</link>
		<dc:creator>cheryl u</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:24:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4179</guid>
		<description>Alan,

If you are still reading here, I want to draw your attention to something.  You said:

&quot;If you go back to the Greek translation of the word ” EAT” Trogo, it means to eat or gnaw on flesh is explicit. It has no other meaning. &quot;

That may be correct.  However, there are two different Greek words for &quot;eat&quot; used in the John 6 account.  The other one is &quot;esthio&quot;, Strong&#039;s #5315.  This particular word is used in the New Testament in a very symbolic way for eating in four places.  See:  John 4:32, I Corinthians 10:3, James 5:3, and Revelation 17:16.

According to the Thayer&#039;s Lexicon, this word can mean, besides physical eating, &quot;a metaphor, to devour, consume.&quot;  That is clearly the way it is used in the verses I listed above.

When the text uses the Greek &quot;esthio&quot;, the King James version translates it &quot;eat&quot;.  When the Greek &quot;trogo&quot; is used, the King James translates it &quot;eateth&quot;.

So I am not at all sure that the Greek for &quot;eat&quot; here would exclude the symbolic interpretation of this passage at all.

And by the way, the Greek word used where it says, &quot;drink my blood&quot; is also used in the New Testament symbolically.

You also mentioned that Jesus never corrected the people&#039;s misunderstanding of what He said.  That is true.  But did you notice that the reason He got into this narrative in the first place was that the people had demanded a sign from Him?  I find it interesting that in the other places where unbelievers asked Him for a sign, once He gave them one and once He didn&#039;t.  But when He did, He didn&#039;t really bother to explain to them what He meant either.  He spoke of the sign of Jonah-- as Jonah was in the whale for 3 days and 3 nights, the Son of man would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.  I don&#039;t know if they knew what that meant or not.  But the point is, He didn&#039;t explain it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan,</p>
<p>If you are still reading here, I want to draw your attention to something.  You said:</p>
<p>&#8220;If you go back to the Greek translation of the word ” EAT” Trogo, it means to eat or gnaw on flesh is explicit. It has no other meaning. &#8221;</p>
<p>That may be correct.  However, there are two different Greek words for &#8220;eat&#8221; used in the John 6 account.  The other one is &#8220;esthio&#8221;, Strong&#8217;s #5315.  This particular word is used in the New Testament in a very symbolic way for eating in four places.  See:  John 4:32, I Corinthians 10:3, James 5:3, and Revelation 17:16.</p>
<p>According to the Thayer&#8217;s Lexicon, this word can mean, besides physical eating, &#8220;a metaphor, to devour, consume.&#8221;  That is clearly the way it is used in the verses I listed above.</p>
<p>When the text uses the Greek &#8220;esthio&#8221;, the King James version translates it &#8220;eat&#8221;.  When the Greek &#8220;trogo&#8221; is used, the King James translates it &#8220;eateth&#8221;.</p>
<p>So I am not at all sure that the Greek for &#8220;eat&#8221; here would exclude the symbolic interpretation of this passage at all.</p>
<p>And by the way, the Greek word used where it says, &#8220;drink my blood&#8221; is also used in the New Testament symbolically.</p>
<p>You also mentioned that Jesus never corrected the people&#8217;s misunderstanding of what He said.  That is true.  But did you notice that the reason He got into this narrative in the first place was that the people had demanded a sign from Him?  I find it interesting that in the other places where unbelievers asked Him for a sign, once He gave them one and once He didn&#8217;t.  But when He did, He didn&#8217;t really bother to explain to them what He meant either.  He spoke of the sign of Jonah&#8211; as Jonah was in the whale for 3 days and 3 nights, the Son of man would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.  I don&#8217;t know if they knew what that meant or not.  But the point is, He didn&#8217;t explain it.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4178</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 03:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4178</guid>
		<description>Also Dudley you and countless splintered protestants, all 40,000  denominations believe that the salvific action of Christ on the cross saves you.  invite you to turn your bible to Matthew 25:31-46 and read what Christ tells the &quot;goats&quot; on His left. Sola Fide is repeatedly refuted by these passages. If Dudley is naked and starving, shivering in the snow and I do not give you my jacket and feed you. Take you into my warm home. If I fail to see the face of Jesus in all your suffering then I am leaving Christ unattended.
If I didn&#039;t do it to the least of His brethren then I didn&#039;t do it to Jesus.  Dudley where does Jesus send the &quot;goats&quot; on His left?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also Dudley you and countless splintered protestants, all 40,000  denominations believe that the salvific action of Christ on the cross saves you.  invite you to turn your bible to Matthew 25:31-46 and read what Christ tells the &#8220;goats&#8221; on His left. Sola Fide is repeatedly refuted by these passages. If Dudley is naked and starving, shivering in the snow and I do not give you my jacket and feed you. Take you into my warm home. If I fail to see the face of Jesus in all your suffering then I am leaving Christ unattended.<br />
If I didn&#8217;t do it to the least of His brethren then I didn&#8217;t do it to Jesus.  Dudley where does Jesus send the &#8220;goats&#8221; on His left?</p>
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		<title>By: cheryl u</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/06/why-i-dont-buy-the-roman-catholic-interpretation-of-john-6-in-defense-of-transubstantiation/comment-page-2/#comment-4177</link>
		<dc:creator>cheryl u</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 03:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1020#comment-4177</guid>
		<description>Alan,

Please remember Dudley was a Catholic at one time..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan,</p>
<p>Please remember Dudley was a Catholic at one time..</p>
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