Concerning my gender issues posts, the issue of submission has shown up and asked for time. The discussion has moved to Eph. 5:21ff. 

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Speaking to this, one commenter gives a good summary of the egalitarian side (mutual submission):

“. . . Verse 22 is INSEPARABLY connected to verse 21. So, in my own personal paraphrase it would come out to something like this:

Submit to one another in brotherly love; wives to your husbands as to the Lord, etc. etc. etc.

So my argument here is that you can’t simply leave that out of the statement as “in general.” It’s a commandment we need to follow, and we need to deal with Scripture in its context! It’s not good practice to slice and dice it.

So our choices are:

1. The husband needs to submit to every Christian other than his wife. Wife needs to submit to every Christian including her husband.

2. Husband and wife both need to submit, but wife should somehow submit more. (This provides a challenge in ambiguity) OR

3. Husband and wife submitting to each other is the timeless principle and the specific contexts relate to their position in that day’s culture (just like slaves serving their masters as though they were working “for the Lord” and masters being kind to their slaves — not establishing a hierarchy, just reflecting it).

I feel that option 3 is the most consistent interpretation because it doesn’t gloss over either verse 21 OR verse 22.”

To this a more complementarian answer comes by another:

“I agree that 5:21 ties in with what follows. But it also ties in with what precedes it. The question I ask is this: what does Paul mean when he says “one another”? Is he saying this specifically of every Christian? Submission implies obedience. It means that I will obey your will, even if it disagrees with what I want or think is best.

In this sense, we all submit to Christ because we all agree that his will is best (even if we disagree with it at times in our sin). But mutual submission of every believer in EVERY instance is impossible. What should my wife do if I say one thing and another Christian man says something else? Who should she submit to? It makes most sense of this passage to believe that Paul is saying “submit to one another” in a GENERAL sense. In other words, based on your relationships in the body of Christ, be willing to submit to each other when the relationship requires it. In this sense, it is not saying that husbands should submit to their wives, parents should obey their children, and masters should obey their slaves. Paul chooses these three relationships as typical illustrations of how Christians should continue to submit to one another, based on their relationship with another believer. Christianity does not do away with these relationships, it changes the motivation for submission (and also note that Paul has alot to say to those in the more “powerful” side of the relationship as well).

What is Paul saying in Ephesians 5:21? He is concluding a series of commands that positively show what Spirit-filled community looks like (as opposed to worldly living). In 5:21, he concludes and transitions into specific examples of what this looks like in different relationships. He selects three typical, hierarchical relationships in the ancient world: marriage, children, and slave-master. In each relationship he first addresses the side that is asked to submit or obey (wives, children, slaves), affirming that they obey as to the Lord, or in the Lord, or just as you would obey Christ. Paul affirms that a person can fully live for Christ in these relationships (which are typically seen as less worthy or less important because they have no power or authority). Submission (which is usually done out of fear or threats) is now done willingly–out of reverence for Christ.

After addressing how a person submits in these typical relationships, he turns to the other side. In each of these relationships, the side with “power” typically resorted to physical punishment or the threat of punishment to exert authority. But Paul replaces that with a loving authority, done out of reverence for Christ (who will judge us all). Husbands are to love their wives as they love themselves (with reminders of truth, continual provision and care). Fathers are to avoid pushing their children too far (exasperating them), and have the responsibility to teach them and train them to know Christ. Masters are to avoid threats, recognizing that they both serve the same master–who does not show favoritism.

Anyway, all of this is to say that you cannot take 5:21 as a universal call to every Christian to practice mutual submission. Paul illustrates what he means in 5:21 with three concrete examples. The examples define his meaning. If you disagree, tell me how we can all submit to each other (in a real sense of obeying the will of another) without unavoidable conflicts? If a parent is disciplining their child and the child doesn’t want to be disciplined, who submits to who?

As an added note, Peter does the same thing as Paul in 1 Peter 2 and 3. Peter reverses the order a bit there. Again, he is talking about living a Spirit-filled life that shows the glory of God to the world (as opposed to a worldly life).

Peter is even harder than Paul for our modern sensibilities of what is right. He has the nerve to call for submission, even in cases when the person in power is NOT kind and loving and nice. Peter first addresses submission to government authorities (again, we all submit to government for the Lords sake–not out of fear). Keep in mind that the government he is referring to killed thousands of Christians a few years after he wrote this letter (Nero). He moves on to address slaves, and specifically asks for submission even when the master is harsh and the suffering is unjust. Finally, he addresses wives, and is clear that they should submit (he uses submit and obey as synonyms in verses 5 and 6), even when their husbands isn’t a Christian.

Note that while Peter doesn’t specifically address the need for government to be merciful and kind, or for masters to be fair and just, he does address husbands–not calling them to submit (which would make no sense), but to be considerate and respectful, recognizing that even though they are in the position of authority and power, they are seen as equal to their wives in the sight of God and there are consequences to abusing power (hindrance of prayer, v.7).

Neither Paul nor Peter teach that husbands should submit to their wives. “Submitting to one another means out of reverence for Christ” is not emphasizing “one another” in the sense of every single Christian regardless of position or relationship. It is emphasizing “out of reverence for Christ”. The point in both Paul and Peter is that our submission is done not out of fear, but out of a desire to honor God.”

What do you all think?

Are husbands commanded to submit to their wives in the same way as wives are commanded to submit to their husbands?

Are parents to submit to their children in the same way that children are commanded to submit to their parents? (Eph. 6:1)

Or do you think this is all cultural with no eternal principles for either husbands and wives or children and parents?

Or do you think that the “husbands and wives” part is cultural and the “children and parents” part is eternal?

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