I guess that puts me somewhere around #3 and #4. I might call it a constitutional sovereignty, in which God has set the rules that the population lives by.

1. What is the greater good?
It seems that much evil in the world leads to no good whatsoever. With His resources, God ought to be able to achieve a greater good much more efficiently without resort to evil.

2. What is God’s economy like?
Scripture seems to indicate that evil greatly outweighs good in the world. For example, few are saved or chosen; many are lost. Are the few redeemed really worth more than the many condemned?

“If the world and all its heartache and resident evils were a clock, then the only sane conclusion would have to be that the clock is broken[...] But the world is not a clock. The world is a story.

Is The Lord of the Rings broken because it has Nazgul in it? Is Pride and Prejudice broken because Wickham is a chump? Is Beowulf twisted because Grendel was twisted?

…God is a master storyteller, and He does not put absurd remainders, pointless dead-ends and irrecuperable absurdities into His story. He will bring all the threads together in the last chapter, no strays and no remainders, no oddities that the editor missed.”

An interesting way of putting it. Shakespeare had total sovereign power over Shylock… Was Shakespeare acting evilly to have him demand his pound of flesh?

-Wm

I believe the Bible teach both God uses and allows evil.
So not three or four, but both.

However, in the details of number 2 you state that “God allows evil as it is part of his imperfect will to bring about a perfect end, but he is not the instrumental cause of evil.” Okay so far. But then in the chart for number 2 you state “God wills evil for the greater good”. This is not the same thing at all Michael. Not even close. If he is not the instrumental cause, then he does not explicitly will it, which is what the chart summary implies.

While I realize that the chart can not say the same thing for numbers 2 and 4, you need a different summarization for 4. How about something like “God may intervene against evil for the greater good” or “for His purposes” or some such?

So, I like the attempt to create some clarity but I don’t think the chart is ready for prime time yet.

I am somewhere between 2 and 3 on your chart.

So I guess 3 or 4 though I don’t really see much difference between the 2.

I don’t see the issue as how much God intervenes and/ or influences. I don’t actually think God is able to force someone who he has given self-will to to love him. So God could be hugely active at the level of 2 but we still have to choose to respond to him.

God is able to get the events of the world to happen to whatever degree he wishes, but the plans of God for what happens are not the plans of God for individual conversion. God may have a desire for what colour socks you wear and yet this outcome does not happen for some people because the refuse to listen and obey God on the matter.

God could force someone to wear a certain colour for his own ends by stopping someone thinking of other options, ensuring the others are in the wash, or all but one pair have a sock missing. It’s not that actions are unable to be done by God, rather does he make them happen even if he desires them to happen.

These categories are not supposed to be exhustive, but representative. In this, they do represent all the major positions, even if you have to nuance the wording according to your tradition. I have found that this is a very good way to look at the issue, but, more importantly, help people understand that not everyone means the same thing when they use the “s” word.

Middle knowledge? It fits into #4, along with many many other things that don’t belong in the same category. I’m not happy with these 4 categories; they’re way too much of a gloss. Many of the words Patton uses are inadequate (God “wills” evil? God’s will is “imperfect”?) But it’s only a model.

I find Molinism to be less credible than Calvinism (even for people who don’t believe in Calvinism) — after all, if God knew in advance what any of his possibly created beings were going to do, and if he’s free to arrange his creation so that his created beings will maximize their potential for good, then you must conclude that either we will all be saved, or none of us will be saved, or some of us are created intrinsically better than others. None of those options fits with anything I believe.

Suffering is relative. Losing a house may be “evil’ to you, but what about a person that doesn’t even have a house.

But if by “evil” you merely meant the opposite of “good” - ie, a broken leg or losing my house or an accidental death… then I go back to my original answer.

That probably makes a big difference, doesn’t it?

Scotism, Thomism, Molinism and Ockhamism are all ways to gloss Augustine.

Palamism is the Eastern take.

Some of the positions will agree with 3 or 4 depending on the event.

As for causing evil, even Augustine doesn’t agree with that idea. He makes it clear for example in his commentary on Genesis, among other places that God wills all things but only causes some.

Now I’m somewhere in between. There are far too many passages that have to be allegorized (or taken completely out of context IMO) for options 1 and 4. Therefore, I’m somewhere in group 2 or 3.

With that said, I know from the past that it’s very easy to say that those in 1 and/or 4 are not evangelical, or even that they are not followers of Christ. That’s simply wrong. There are not only believers in all four groups, but evangelical inerrantists. So a word of encouragement for those who are in the extremes and firing arrows at the other side…they are your brothers and sisters in Christ, and just because you disagree with their interpretation of Scripture doesn’t nullify their faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I read God in scripture as more of a sovereign than an overseer (knocking out #3 and #4), but I think He allows the tension between divine will and human will to exist (knocking out #1). I even think that tension allows for the accountability for our actions that I believe we are held to, which I would find hard to grasp if it were a meticulous sovereignty.

But thanks again for twisting my mind into a pretzel for a bit, it needs the workout!

The game is finished. It is all done. Jesus rose from the grave and has won eternal life for sinners.

Case is closed.