A Primer on the Theology of Men and Women

Men and women are different. I would not think that anyone really wants to argue against this statement. I would not think that anyone wants to argue with this statement, but my thinking does not rule the debate. In fact, there are those who would argue against what I believe. Let me back up.
There are some things that women are better at than men.
There are some things that men are better at than women.
These two presuppositions help form my understanding of the great gender debate. I am a complementarian. Really, I am what you might call a soft complementarian. I believe that God has created the sexes uniquely. This uniqueness contributes to individual uniqueness.
Before I continue with my position, let me give a brief overview of the positions and their respective responses. Please understand that some arguments are going to be more central than others. As well, some will have more validity. I have simply tried to give a representation of the debate without necessarily endorsing each argument. I say this to prevent straw-men from either side.
A survey of the positions:
Complementarianism:
Position: The Bible teaches that men and women are of equal worth, dignity, and responsibility before God (ontological equality). The Bible also teaches that men and women have different roles to play in society, the family, and the church (functional inequality). These roles do not compete but complement each other. This is illustrated (not evidenced) in the doctrine of the Trinity. All members of the Godhead are equal in essence (ontological equality), but have distinct roles (functional inequality).
Adherents: Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Douglas Moo, Charles Swindoll, John MacArthur, Tom Schreiner, Daniel Wallace.
Egalitarianism:
Position: The Bible teaches that all people are of equal value. Therefore, women are not in any sense, functionally or ontologically, subservient to men. Women and men hold ministry positions according to their gifts, not their gender. The principle of mutual submission teaches that husbands and wives are to submit to each other equally.
Adherents: N.T. Wight, Gregory Boyd, Stanley Grenz, William Webb, Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, Ruth Tucker.
Arguments for Complementarianism:
1. The Bible illustrates male leadership from the beginning of creation.
- Adam named the animals (Genesis 2:20).
- Adam named Eve (Genesis 2:23).
- God approached Adam first after the fall (Genesis 2:9).
- There were no women priests.
- The God-ordained rulers of Israel were male.
- Jesus’ apostles were all male.
- The bishops/presbyters/pastors were all male (1 Timothy 3:2; Titus. 1:6).
Egalitarian Response:
These illustrations of male leadership were descriptive, not prescriptive. In other words, male leadership, like slavery, was a cultural phenomenon that God chose not to overthrow at the time.
2. Eve was created as a completer. In order for one to be incomplete, he or she must lack something. Adam lacked something that caused God to say, “It is not good for man to be alone” (Genesis 2:18). Eve was created to complete that which was lacking. It is important to realize that she was not simply a second attempt at perfection. Eve was created with essential characteristics that Adam did not have. Likewise, Adam was created with characteristics that Eve did not have. They were created to complement each other. Therefore, the role distinction is essential for humanity to be complete.
Egalitarian Response:
While it is agreed that the woman was created to complete humanity (not man), this does not necessitate that God intended a functional hierarchy.
3. Paul constantly had to address women who were failing to understand the importance of their role as women or who were in outright rebellion against it. These women were blurring the God-ordained roles and attempting to usurp the role of man. (1 Tim. 2:12-15; 1 Cor. 14:34-35; Col. 3:18; Tit. 2:5)
Egalitarian Response:
Paul was writing to cultural situations that do not demand universal application. For example, when Paul wrote to Timothy in Ephesus, there were women who were former cult prostitutes and uneducated (typically only receiving secondhand instruction from their husbands) attempting to “fill the pulpit.” He used Eve to illustrate how destructive secondhand information can be. He does not use the events in the Garden as a universal principle. Paul’s command here is then purely cultural.
4. The New Testament writers constantly had to address men who abused their role as leaders. This is part of the curse. The instruction to men, however, is not to stop leading, but to lead in a way that is sensitive, encouraging, and loving.
Egalitarian Response:
These passages in the New Testament do not regulate how husbands are to rule, but do instruct on how they are to relate. They are to love their wives and not rule over them.
5. The curse involves women failing to appreciate their role (”you will want to control”) and men failing to dignify the role of women (”he will rule over you”—word “rule” speaks of rule by oppressive force). It is for this reason that Paul has more instructions to husbands about dignifying their wives than he does to wives submitting to their husbands (Ephesians 5:25a, 28, 33a; 1 Pet. 3:7; Col. 3:9). If men fail to recognize the value of the role of women, this gives reason for a rebellion against this role.
Genesis 3:16
“To the woman He said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children; yet you will want to control your husband, and he will rule over you.’”
Egalitarian Response:
Male leadership, rulership, domination, whatever name it goes by, was a product of the Fall, not creation. In Christ, this aspect of the Fall needs to be redeemed by recognizing functional equality.
Arguments for Egalitarianism
1. Patriarchalism (male domination) is a cultural phenomenon that God chose not to deal with, but to regulate as he also did with slavery. But we can see from Scripture that this allowance has a redemptive focus and direction.
Complementarian Response:
While it is true that God sometimes does not reform cultural issues immediately, a husband’s leadership is not a cultural issue any more than children obeying their parents (Eph. 6:1) is a cultural issue.
2. Male leadership and domination is a result of the Fall that is reversed when we are restored in Christ.
Genesis 3:16
“To the woman He said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children; yet your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.’”
The basic idea here is that it was not God’s original intention to have the male “rule over” the female. As a result of the Fall, and in the fallen state, men sinfully rule over women.
Galatians 3:28
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
As a result of redemption these cultural barriers are removed. The church should not recognize any essential distinctions that determine roles.
Complementarian Response:
There is much evidence that clearly shows that male leadership is not a result of the Fall:
- Adam was created first.
- Eve was created as a completer.
- Adam named Eve.
- God spoke to Adam first after the Fall.
- Adam, not Eve, represents the human race in the Fall (Romans 5:12-19).
- The curse brought distortion of previous roles, not the introduction of new roles.
3. The Bible has many examples of women who were leaders, teachers, and prophetesses who exercised authority over men. These are “break away” redemptions which evidence that cultural norms are not God’s norms.
- Miriam is stated to be a leader of the Exodus alongside Moses and Aaron (Micah 6:4).
- Deborah served as a judge in Israel (Judges 4-5).
- Huldah was a prophetess consulted by both men and women (2 Kings 22:14).
- There were prophetesses in the New Testament who carried the authority of their office teaching men (Luke 2:36-38; Acts 2:16-18; 21:8-9; 1 Corinthians 11:4-5).
Complementarian Response:
Many of the examples, such as Deborah, are the exception because of the lack of male leadership. (As one commentator of Judges has put it, the subtitle of the book should be “Where have all the men gone?”). Women, however, did effectively prophesy and hold leadership positions in the early church and can in today’s church as well. The debate is not whether women can be leaders or teachers, but whether they can be in authority over men.
4. History has conclusively demonstrated that women have been very effective spiritual leaders and pastors.
- Catherine Booth
- Joan of Arc
- Amy Carmichael
- Corrie Ten Boom
- Elisabeth Elliott
- Joyce Meyers
- Ruth Tucker
Complementarian Response:
Again, it is agreed that women have been and are very effective leaders. But referring to the success of women who have occupied a position of spiritual leadership over men is pragmatic at best. The exception should never determine the rule. (Do we let it do so in other areas?)
5. Despite claims to the contrary, it is hard to see how stating that women are denied the opportunity of exercising spiritual headship over men does not demean the ontological value of women.
Complementarian Response:
Stating that people are genetically prepared for particular services is not a dishonor and it does not promote an ontological hierarchy. Acknowledgment is easily made that men are not prepared for childbirth, but this in no way devalues their person; it just substantiates that their role is not childbearing.
There is the long overview. I will speak more succinctly and candidly to this issue in upcoming blogs.
Where do you stand? Was this helpful?
(This is a hot topic, I know. This is why I ask you to go out of your way to be respectful.)
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- A Primer on the Theology of Men and Women
- Women, Slaves, and Homosexuals
- Do I Allow a Woman to Teach Men?
- Male/Female Equality: A Plea for Honesty
- “It is not good for man to be alone”: A Theological look at Singleness

Luke on 28 Apr 2008 at 12:43 am #
Great, irenic, candid format CMP. Thanks for that. Actually, based on your format I think the egalitarians have a much better argument than what I thought!
I would like to see a bit more cultural interaction going on. For instance, Paul says in Timothy that he doesn’t even permit a woman to speak…do complementarians really follow this? Also, in Corinthians he tells women to wear head coverings…do complementarians really follow this? Regardless of who should be the “head dog” so to speak (senior pastor, CEO, leader of organization, whatever), I stand by the statement that I greatly appreciate and treasure the set of lenses females bring to the table regarding biblical interpretation (Read Phyllis Trible’s “Texts of Terror”). Therefore, I would let a woman teach me the Bible any and every single day of the week, and think any other stance is narrow-minded, arrogant, dogmatic, and downright oppressive.
Bec on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:01 am #
Ugh! Why are we still discussing this??
We are who God made us to be. Part of that is determined by gender. Much of it IS NOT. We are much much more complicated than what reproductive equipment we are fitted out with. Why don’t we stop this and just let each other be and do what God has made and called us to??
I think Paul’s discussion of the body in 1 Cor 12 is relevant to this discussion too… I think his argument would extend to saying, that however God has created you, be that ‘part’, don’t say “well I’m a woman, so I can’t POSSIBLY be a hand, so I’ll try and be a foot instead”. I don’t think it’s just that we sometimes desire to be a more important part. But we also struggle with believing that we are “good enough” to be the part that we are. We are all needed, and individually crafted and placed where He wants us.
Why can’t we just be who we are, and do what God puts in front of us?!!
But then… that would make life so much simpler, and we do so love jostling for position.
C Michael Patton on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:06 am #
Bec, I think that both sides are just trying to be faithful to Scripture. If your argument is right, then the homosexual could say “Why can’t I just be who I am?” can’t he?
In other words, I think this issue is more significant than you give it credit for. However, I do admit that it is not simple.
C Michael Patton on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:08 am #
Luke, complementarians would all agree that there are cultural issues involved. None of them would say that wearing a head covering and talking in church does not have cultural baggage that needs to be extracted. The question is Are role distinctions a cultural issue?—this goes beyond a simple cultural expression.
bethyada on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:26 am #
I am (currently) a complementarian. My pastor whom I greatly admire and respect and who has taught me and others phenomenal truths is an egalitarian, as far as I can tell. My reason for being (or becoming) a complementarian is scriptural. I think that this position does justice to all the biblical data. I have not seen a good egalitarian defense that covers every relevant verse in a convincing way.
The egalitarians are correct in that any effects of the Fall can be addressed. That work is toil and childbirth painful does not prevent us doing acts of mercy and grace and seeking to overcome the curse. Where I think they fail is not realising that consequences of the Fall still affect our nature. So if the interpretation of Genesis 3 is that women will be against their husbands (I think this is a reasonable translation), then this will be something they will struggle with (in general) even as we seek to overcome our fallen natures. And the comment from God about men ruling is not a commentary from God on men’s sin, it is a consequence of the Fall. This cannot be an ascription of sin to men in the world, the most egalitarians can say is that the church can overcome this temporary structure because Christ overcame the curse.
bethyada on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:31 am #
Continuing.
The pre-Fall arguments for complementarianism is very strong. I put a huge weight on the Creation/ Fall/ Redemption hermeneutic and therefore think this is very foundational to this issue.
Adam did name the woman (he also named her Eve but because this was post-Fall one could argue this was as a result of the curse). He was also given the command about the tree from God, not both of them. He was created first and Eve was created from Adam, not vice versa.
A question worth all of us asking is: Would we change and become a complementarian or egalitarian if we were convinced that is what Scripture taught?
Ruth Tucker on 28 Apr 2008 at 7:02 am #
Michael,
There are a million things I’d like to respond to, but time constrains me. One little point of format first. There’s too much on this post. I’m wondering about you doing something like Primer . . . . Part 1 in the future, followed by Part 2, etc.
As to your opening statement: “Men and women are different.” As you point out, we all agree on this. But the response to the statement is so very different. Years ago in 1985, on its 100th anniversary, Fifth Reformed Church in Grand Rapids (where I was a member) ordained its first women elders. Neither were “feminists.” Both “homemakers,” they had been far more involved in the everyday life of the church ministry–much more so than the doctor, lawyer, businessmen elders who continued to serve along side them. I later heard comments about how much they contributed to the elder board with their—dare I say—complementary perspectives.
This is true in so many situations. Women ARE different from men, and whether on the elder board or in the pulpit, the ministry is profoundly enriched when we hear their voices as well.
Exegeting the NT Greek is important, but hermeneutics is the key to understanding the gender issue. For example, we so easily hammer on 1 Tim. 2, citing Paul’s restrictions of women (on which I am very eager to interact), but we totally ignore Paul’s much longer passage regarding women (particularly widows) in 1 Tim. 5. Who gives us the right to say widows over the age of 60 should not have our undivided attention (as Paul commands) just because Social Security now steps in?
We all (myself included) easily interpret Scripture to our own liking. For those of you out there who say you only present God’s interpretation, get over it! Get out of your cave.
Libertarian Evangelical on 28 Apr 2008 at 7:03 am #
Gender…
. . . Michael Patton has a very comprehensive post on the differing views of men and women in the church. He sets out both sides of the debate very well . . ….
Minnowspeaks on 28 Apr 2008 at 7:53 am #
CMP–Point #5 Interesting translation of Gen. 3:16. What version is it?
Being created to complete does not place woman under man. Woman was also made as a “help mate” the only other place I’ve seen that term used is to refer to God.
BTW, the same verse that bans women from having “authority over” also says women are to be silent. It really is difficult to say we must adhere to part A but part B is too inconvenient. What an interesting “protest” it would be if women in churches everywhere suddenly fell silent–didn’t sing, didn’t pray, didn’t teach, didn’t talk. (And yes I already have told myself all the snide comments so there is no need to go there).
Britphil–maybe there’s an island out here somewhere we can swim to…humm…
Glenn E. Chatfield on 28 Apr 2008 at 8:22 am #
I don’t recognize Ruth Tucker, but I don’t think Joyce Meyers should be listed as an “effective spiritual leader and pastor”; she is a false teacher of the Word of Faith heresy and a host of other aberrations.
As for those claiming culture in the issues, it is interesting that Paul makes his appeal to creation and the creative order - all references are to Adam and Eve as to the why of submission and the why of silence and the why of no teaching or authority over men in the church. Creation trumps culture any day of the week!
Michael J. Phillips on 28 Apr 2008 at 8:25 am #
CMP,
Wow, this is a hot issue, I think it is brave to even approach the subject.
I am very interested to see the posts unfold, from your irenic perspective.
When all is said and done, I think it is very difficult to ascertain what God expects from His church. I know that many of the passages dealing with women are cultural, but how do we “know” which are cultural and which are eternal? Very few people believe that women should wear head coverings, and as stated in #8, most do not think women should be silent at church. Having to dissect the keepers from the releasers makes this discussion difficult.
I guess, at the end of the day, what I try to accomplish is letting God tell me what my value is, rather than society. I try to approach all things this way, and I try to teach this to way as well. There are difficult passages all over scripture that can easily be thrown out if I do not like them, but then I would be allowing society, myself or otherwise, to dictate what is truth, not God.
This issue is huge, and it will not end anytime soon. But I think all would be wise to approach this from the perspective of what God has ordained, not what seems right to us. The Bible seems to say that genders were created differently, for different purposes, but all to complete the purposes of God on earth. This must be the beginning point for any such discussion.
Anyway, that is my 2 cents worth of “Primer”,
Michael J. Phillips
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 11:52 am #
So, CMP, are you the ruler in your home? What does that look like in your family?
A Brief Primer on the Gender Debate « The Crimson Window on 28 Apr 2008 at 12:40 pm #
[...] For those unfamiliar or new to the gender debate this may be a good place to start. Click here for the whole post. Below is an [...]
Matt J. on 28 Apr 2008 at 12:41 pm #
One of your complemetarian responses included this:
“The debate is not whether women can be leaders or teachers, but whether they can be in authority over men.”
However, most complementarian’s I have discussed this with actually DO bring this right into the debate. The idea being that only elders should ever be doing any teaching in the church, so therefore only men should ever be teaching.
I would call myself complementarian, but I think it’s obvious some women are gifted and excellent teachers. I think elders should only be men. I don’t think women should have authority over them, for all the well explained reasons you’ve given. But I am frequently annoyed at how the elder requirements are used as a stick to beat a 100-foot “women free” zone around the pulpit. They can’t even read announcements. It makes me sympathetic to some of the egalitarian arguments.
C Michael Patton on 28 Apr 2008 at 12:43 pm #
Alyssa, “ruler” kind of stacks the deck in a direction that I would not suggest for anyone take with regard to this issue. It is actually part of the curse to take the “ruler” nuance to leadership.
I would hope that my family functions in such a way that my spiritual leadership is a blessing rather than a curse. I am not sure what particulars you are looking for, but my family does recognize me as their leader. My wife is most certianly my co-leader and she trusts me to make the right decisions.
For example, when the proposition came for us to move to OKLA to help with my mother, my wife was fully supportive of the decision. When I stopped working at Stonebriar and went full-time with RMM, she was scared, but supportive. In the end, I had to make such decisions and take responsibility for them.
C Michael Patton on 28 Apr 2008 at 12:59 pm #
Matt, complementarians, as well as egalitarians, come in a variety of shapes and sizes. Some will most certainly be more restrictive (although I would prefer to call the radicals hierarchialists).
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 12:59 pm #
CMP,
What would you say your job descriptions are for “spiritual leader” (you) and “co-leader” (your wife)? And how do the differences between men and women necessitate those job descriptions?
The specifics I’m looking for are those that are particular to one of you — what one does that the other one never does because of his/her role, or does less or more often because of roles. I’m looking for the differentiated part. Does that make more sense?
C Michael Patton on 28 Apr 2008 at 12:59 pm #
Maybe I will create a chart to illustrate the spectrum of thought with this issue.
C Michael Patton on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:03 pm #
Alyssa,
Most definitely. But in the end, she knows that I bear the weight of responsibility for our family and she trusts me when things become very difficult. This is what being a leader is. It is not that you don’t have co-leaders. Even my children are vice-co-leaders since they are part of our family.
C Michael Patton on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:07 pm #
I am actually surprised how few comments this is getting.
JFrances on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:07 pm #
CMP, this is a brave post indeed! Kudos for pressing the publish button on that one. This is a topic that totally changed my life.
There was a time when I would have considered myself a feminist with a strong egalitarian inclination. One of the very best primers for me in considering complimentarianism is the body of work from Pope John Paul II, The Theology of the Body. Of course, his work may not be on the reading list for most Evangelicals, however it tipped my boat and is quite a thorough Scriptural treatment of this very topic.
A great introductory article called, “An Education in Being Human” can be found here:
http://www.theologyofthebody.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=48
Would it be too much to ask that PJP2 be added to the complementarianism adherents listing?
Lisa R on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:09 pm #
I just wrote a whole response and in the end lost it trying to link to a site. Agghhh. I do have much to say on this subject but will try to keep it concise.
I am a complementarian because I believe that is what scriptures support. I do not believe that hierarchy should negate mutual submission. Look at Eph 5:21, submit one to another. Isn’t the husband loving the wife equally submissive to the wife submitting to the husband? This should engender mutual submission and respect. I think that submission has received a bad rap due to misunderstanidng in concept and application. Didn’t Jesus submit to the Father? Was He ontologically inferior?
I also see in scripture that spiritual giftedness is gender neutral. So there is a role and need for women in leadership in the church. But the role is confined with in the order of male headship. Another consideration, that I don’t think is highlighted here, is that of responsibility. Headship brings responsibility and that responsibility is afforded to men. Personally, that should be a relief to women and I wrote about this recently in my blog here http://weblog.xanga.com/lisarinri/642268285/honored-to-complement.html
One of the biggest problems I have with the egalitarian argument, especially with respect to gender roles being neutralized with the salvific work of the cross, is then why is there still instruction to maintain an order in the early church? I don’t think that can be completely absolved through cultural context.
Ps. Forgive any typos or spacing issues. The comment box is not working and part of the comment screen is cut off.
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:10 pm #
CMP,
I think we miscommunicated — I meant to ask what the job descriptions are for the titles you used, not whether those titles are accurate. Sorry! Can you give a brief job description for “spiritual leader” and “co-leader”?
C Michael Patton on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:30 pm #
The best I can say right now is that the leader has ultimate responsibility. Job descriptions can vary.
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:35 pm #
I should clarify why I’m looking for “job descriptions.” Many times when I have discussions with people about this issue it turns out we’re very close in how we think we should behave and it’s sort of an exercise in semantics. For me it’s easier to discuss particulars.
The way I’m seeing it we agree (my husband and I are egalitarian) on these issues:
1. Men and women are different.
2. The Bible is the final authority for truth and instruction manual for behavior.
3. Wives should submit to their husbands out of reverence for Christ.
What I think I disagree with you on, Michael, falls under these questions:
1. Are men and women different in the God-given decision-making power they wield at home and church? Do they have equal decision-making power or does one have more?
2. Should husbands also submit to wives?
Thus, by asking for a job-description I’m trying to narrow down whether, for instance, your wife holds any final decision-making power in your home or whether all of the final decisions are at your descretion. Does submission go both ways or just wife to husband? Can she ever have the final authority and responsibility?
I appreciate that you’re bringing this issue up.
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:38 pm #
Michael,
The ultimate responsibility for what?
joel hunter on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:45 pm #
In your statement of the complementarian position, you say “The Bible also teaches that men and women have different roles to play in society, the family, and the church (functional inequality).” But the complementarian position cannot be held consistently with the biblical data if it is left defined as “different” roles. That is too vague. What is the nature of this “difference?” In point of fact, the complementarian position requires that one of the sexes have subordinate social/cultural roles. This is why the Trinitarian illustration breaks down, isn’t it? For then one has to identify which of the Persons is subordinate. And isn’t this exactly what Grudem does? He equates the subordinate position of “functional inequality” with the Son. Although I think Grudem’s introduction of subordination into the life of the Trinity is bad theology, it seems to make the most consistent complementarian position. However, if correct, it suggests that the distinction between ‘ontological’ and ‘functional’ (in)equality is chimerical.
I think the complementarian is forced to assert that gender inequality is essential, i.e., a matter of “nature.” If role distinctions are built into creation, then we ought to be able to say which “roles” are morally permissible for men and which are morally permissible for women. It seems to me that those complementarians who argue that men are not morally required to acknowledge the authority of women in any sphere of life (civil, juridicial, ecclesial, etc.) have a far more coherent position. I don’t blame them for being suspicious of their fellow complementarians who shy away from an assertion of universal patriarchy. As for me, I disagree with both the overt and crypto-patriarchalist.
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:57 pm #
Quite a few of the previous comments on this topic have recognized that this is not an issue of serving the Lord with natural abilities and even gifts from God but it is an issue of authority. I am a complimentarian.
Just because a women has an ability to teach as aptly as a man does not necessarily mean that they have the authority or the go ahead from God to do so.
This is true of men as well. Does a natural ability automatically mean that a man is called to be a teacher or a pastor ?
I have also witnessed men who have had no ability in this area naturally, but when regenerated by the Holy Spirit have been gifted and changed to function in that role within the body of believers.
I have also seen men ruin and usurp other men’s ministries in a fashion that I believe shows no reverence for those in authority within in the body. I think of David and Saul, How David was annoited privately but refused to take Saul out by killing him. Although this is not the best example it does reflect some of this issue of honoring those things that God has set in place.
As a women I have never felt demeaned or
stiffled or held back in service but then the men who count most to me have always honored me, as I do them.
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 2:42 pm #
Cadis said, “As a women I have never felt demeaned or
stiffled or held back in service but then the men who count most to me have always honored me, as I do them.”
While I totally respect and appreciate this fact, I feel that it brings with it a common “straw man” type of argument. As an egalitarian, my concern is not that men will abuse the power that God has given them over women. The perception seems to be that I’m worried men will “go too far” with their power, or that their “servant leadership” will be a curse, rather than a blessing to their families.
As an egalitarian, my concern is the inequality of power inherent in the comlpementariatn viewpoint. Does that make sense? Abuse is a concern, but the viewpoint of inequality is a bigger concern for me.
I’m also not worried that men and women are viewed as different, but that they are viewed as inequal in power over their lives.
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 2:48 pm #
Alyssa,
“As an egalitarian, my concern is the inequality of power inherent in the comlpementariatn viewpoint. Does that make sense? Abuse is a concern, but the viewpoint of inequality is a bigger concern for me.I’m not worried that men and women are viewed as different, but that they are viewed as inequal in power anr over their lives.”
I’m not concerned with power over my life but that the Lord has power over both me and my husband and we submit our lives to him.
No, It’s not real clear, because I doubt you would disagree with what I just said in the paragraph above. What do you mean by power over your life?
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 2:56 pm #
Cadis,
Wow! Maybe we agree. That’s the power of clarification.
I 100% agree with this:
“I’m not concerned with power over my life but that the Lord has power over both me and my husband and we submit our lives to him.”
I had understood the complementarian belief to be that the husband has final authority (or power) over the life of the family and church. In terms of every day decision making, the final decision would be his. My belief is that Christ (alone) has that power, so it would appear that we agree.
(BTW I am editing a lot because my browser is also having a problem with all the words appearing.)
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 2:58 pm #
I didn’t say what I meant by power over life — I meant the ability to make day-to-day decisions that affect my life (i.e. moving, jobs, etc.).
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 2:58 pm #
agreeance is always good but it sure does end the conversation
We agree!
Moving and jobs we determine together but I would never insist on moving without my husband in total agreeance to it.
And even then, say not that will do this or that, or tommorrow we will go here but Lord willing
Ryan Pazdur on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:03 pm #
We’re having some of these same discussions among our church leadership right now. We have been focusing on God’s purpose in creating marriage and gender. Does the Bible teach us anything about why God created us male and female rather than just male or just female? It would seem, based on Paul’s reflections on the creation of marriage in Ephesians 5 (where he draws parallels between God’s purpose in marriage and God’s purpose in redemption), that marriage is intended to glorify God by illustrating the relationship between God and his people. There is, then, a unique way in which men fulfill the role of “head” in a marriage (representative leadership of his family, sacrificial love for them, provision, and care of his family). There is also a unique way in which women submit to their husband as head in a marriage (with faith and trust and a willing spirit). In both cases, we must always remember that both people are sinful human beings. No human relationship can replace the relationship that we have with God in Jesus Christ. But these relationships “illustrate” that eternal, redemptive relationship.
How do we get from roles in marriage to leadership in the church? In addition to verses that directly address this, I look at the biblical analogy of the church as the family of God. If the marriage relationship is to serve as an illustration of God’s purposes in redemption, then the church, as the family of God, should reflect those unique, gender specific roles. While Jesus Christ is the “husband” and head of the church, the male elders serve as his representatives to the body. Paul carries over the unique purpose of each gender to the family relationship we have within the church. In other words, if God didn’t have a created purpose for marriage, there would be no need to restrict certain roles in the church (representative leadership, care of the family of God [discipline, etc.], provision through the preaching of the word ) to just men. I don’t see the gender restrictions on the role of elder in the church as arbitrary or culturally based. Following Paul’s logic, they are based on God’s purpose in creating marriage (a temporary reality) as an illustration of his eternal purpose in redemption. That said, I admit I’m still working some of this out…it’s not an easy one to tackle!
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:05 pm #
Okay, so what IS the difference between complementarian and egalitarian in the home, if we both beileve that husband and wife are equally submissive to Christ and each other?
That’s what I’m trying to get from CMP — and I thought he was saying that he had the final decision (power) in his home to decide whether to move, change jobs, etc.
This is a very muddled debate, isn’t it?
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:11 pm #
Cadis,
I’m very much enjoying “talking” with you! Thank you!
You said “Moving and jobs we determine together but I would never insist on moving without my husband in total agreeance to it.
And even then, say not that will do this or that, or tommorrow we will go here but Lord willing”
Most complementarians that I know would say that, if there’s a disagreement, the husband has the final say. That’s what I was asking about — not whether YOU would make a unilateral decision, but whether HE would. In our house, neither of us makes decisions like that unless we both agree. So I’m wondering what’s different in a complementarian house.
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:24 pm #
Alyssa,
Well I would say that if my husband were to feel that he was called of God to make a move, and that move involved his service and calling of God, even if I hated it, I would agree to it because I would want him to excel in his service to the Lord. If the move was say for a better hunting ground, in below zero temperatures, I would buck it tooth and nail
I do allow my husband final say, but only because usually our disagreements are not because one is totally against something but because normally it is just a tough decision that there maybe a number of different approaches to, and if his approach is reasonable but different, He gets the say. Occassionally I have let him go even when unreasonable
that’s always fun to watch
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:34 pm #
“Well I would say that if my husband were to feel that he was called of God to make a move, and that move involved his service and calling of God, even if I hated it, I would agree to it because I would want him to excel in his service to the Lord.”
But he would do the same for you, though, right? So to me that’s another “we agree” — not really different between complementarians and egalitarians.
Okay, now here I really have some questions:
“only because usually our disagreements are not because one is totally against something but because normally it is just a tough decision that there maybe a number of different approaches to”
Now, if your husband is the God-ordained authority, why do you only “allow” him to make decisions when it’s a close call? To me, it seems like authority is authority, whether it’s a close call or not. See what I’m saying? And if it’s up to you to allow him to make the decision by himself, isn’t that equality as well?
Again, though, I’m sure he defers to you on some of those occasions too, doesn’t he? Or have we finally come to the core difference?
jgoodwin on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:03 pm #
CMP - You state “The debate is not whether women can be leaders or teachers, but whether they can be in authority over men.”
Can you define what you understand “authority” to mean in the context of the church?
An example of how specific I would like you to be would look something like: “Authority” means the highest level leadership within a local church body. This individual or group determines orthodoxy for that specific church.
My understanding of the subject will be much improved (I hope) if/when I understand the answer to this questions.
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:09 pm #
Alyssa,
“Now, if your husband is the God-ordained authority, why do you only “allow” him to make decisions when it’s a close call? To me, it seems like authority is authority, whether it’s a close call or not. See what I’m saying? And if it’s up to you to allow him to make the decision by himself, isn’t that equality as well?”
I would say that normally it it is a close call because we have a unified goal and we are unified in Christ. That is what most unbelievers do not understand about a wife submitting to a husband, because they cannot understand that the husband submits to Christ and we have that unified influence and guidance.. Yes we discuss everthing, Yes he knows that I have wisdom and prudence in most areas and in some areas more knowledge then him of certain things, but that is not the point…He represents us in a way, do I dare say he is the front man and the one I trust for the most part when things are rough. He also trusts me that I will compliment him in that I will reason with him from the word if I belive he is ready to do something sinful or something he will regret. But I have personally found that my husband is very accomplished at zeroing in and targeting a problem with no tears or regrets and he does so by prayer and personally answering to the Lord.(In other words he does not need nagging)
Like the proverbial women, I have bought land with little but a nod of a head from my husband, He has learned to trust me in areas too, finances being one. I compliment him, and yes he compliments me, So allowing him final say is easy.
I really cannot think of a major decision that we have just totally been at odds over
Our knock down drag out fights are typically during a full moon(kidding) and totally unreasonable on both parts over some dumb thing.
But I really think this is digressing from what this topic is about and that is women holding a position of authority over a man, an office an authoratative teacher etc…
although I like the discussion we are having
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:16 pm #
Okay, so let me try to summarize your position and then you tell me if I’m getting it right:
1. Husband and wife discuss issue/decision.
2. Husband and wife agree and decision is thus made or husband and wife disagree and wife defers to husband to make the decision.
Is that right?
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:21 pm #
BTW, I want to take a moment and clarify that my husband and all who know us would agree that I ABSOLUTELY WORSHIP THE GROUND MY HUSBAND WALKS ON! I aspire to be like him, he is my hero I don’t know how else to put it.
So this isn’t about me resenting him or husbands or men in general, it’s just that he and I both have a core belief that equality is one of the things that makes our marriage great and that this equality came from God.
Just a public service announcement!
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:21 pm #
Alyssa,
“1. Husband and wife discuss issue/decision.
2. Husband and wife agree and decision is thus made or husband and wife disagree and wife defers to husband to make the decision.
Is that right?”
That is how our household runs
because I’m now confused
now someone better than me will have to define wether that is complimetarian or egalitarian.
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:29 pm #
Okay, so now I think we’ve got it. That puts you in the complementarian camp. For us it goes like this:
1. Husband and wife discuss issue/decision.
2. If they agree, decision is made. If they don’t agree they return to prayer until…
3. Husband and wife both hear from God, agree, and make decision or one chooses to defer to the other.
That is what puts us in the egalitarian camp. The “final decision” part.
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:34 pm #
Not far removed, but yes there is a difference. When push comes to shove and agreement cannot be had through prayer . Yes I choose to defer it to my husband always. I say always because only rash decisions on his part will I oppose but if he through prayer has concluded and it is something that I disagree with , yes he gets the say.
P.S. Lord don’t put me to the test for saying always!
we have been married 26 yrs. and 18 yrs. we have been saved, til now it has been fairly easy the last 18 yrs, but…Lord please don’t put me to the test
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:40 pm #
Interesting, then, that the practical portion of the debate is so small!
I think that if we could do away with all of the “Egalitarians believe men and women are the same” and the “Complementarians believe women have no say” rubbish we would get somewhere faster, don’t you?
So, the central PRACTICAL question of the debate is:
If husband and wife disagree on a decision after careful thought and prayer, should the wife ALWAYS defer to the husband, or is it some of both?
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 4:47 pm #
Alyssa,
“I think that if we could do away with all of the “Egalitarians believe men and women are the same” and the “Complementarians believe women have no say” rubbish we would get somewhere faster, don’t you? ”
absolutely! I usually find balance (meekness) is key in most issues.
But we still have the problem of women in authortative postions over men within the church. I say no.
Minnowspeaks on 28 Apr 2008 at 5:01 pm #
Cadis and Alyssa–
You both have been blessed with husbands who seem to respect you and take the portions of scripture seriously that tell them to submit. Not all women are so blessed. Some actually live with men who believe women should have no say in and are incapable of contributing to the decission making process. Most of these men believe they are functioning quite excellently in their God ordained roles.
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 5:30 pm #
Minnowspeaks,
“You both have been blessed with husbands who seem to respect you and take the portions of scripture seriously that tell them to submit.”
I won’t deny this, it is a blessing, but I won’t diminish or look down my nose to those who struggle in this area with an unbelieving spouse or a spouse gone amok. I must admit I have little understanding of it because it has not been so with me, but that does not make me a better wife. I just don’t know why with some the Lord allows this to happen to. I don’t know why. I am thankful to the Lord that he has given me a real marriage and husband, but it comes from the lips (or fingers) of someone who could have had a struggle in life, I believed about a yr. before my husband and during that time, I knew things could be very bad but the Lord moved in my husband’s life. I don’t know where I would be if he hadn’t,But it was a real possibility that the Lord would not will to do so, so I guess I can understand in a limited fashion. Short term but not long term understanding.
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 5:55 pm #
Minnowspeaks,
Great point, and one primary reason that I think an egalitarian perspective simply works better. I came within 40 hours of marrying an abuser before I married my husband, so believe me I know the alternative to a great, equal marriage!
So, to revise the question to include those who feel women should have less power than just “equal unless it comes down to it”:
The question is whether men and women should have equal power (or authority, or responsibility, or however you put it) in their home, or whether men are called by God to have more power than women.
What do you think?
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 5:58 pm #
BTW, here’s a great article by Dr. Gilbert Bilezikian on the subject:
http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/male_headship.shtml
Michael J. Phillips on 28 Apr 2008 at 6:07 pm #
Cadis and Alyssa,
The discussion you are having is great. I would say, along those lines, when wife and I have a decision to make it seems pretty apparent 99.99% of the time what the Lord would want us to do. Therefore, it is not usually a struggle to come to a consensus on most issues. But what about the other .01%. I think that is where the two camps are seperated.
An heirarchical husband is NOT what the scriptures describe, but it does appear that the scriptures place responsibility on the husband. With that, it is God who has decided this for us. I always take the counsel of my wife into account for difficult decisions, and we usually end up agreeing. But if we do not, while I am always cautious, I must make the decision that I feel the Lord leading us to. There is all submission to the Lord, on both our parts, but it does not always bear out that we come to the same conclusions. So, end the end we must align our lives with what scripture mandates.
Alyssa, after we are finished having discussions about the home, what are your views about the church? Should a woman fill the pulpit?
Thanks,
Michael
Michael J. Phillips on 28 Apr 2008 at 6:11 pm #
CMP,
The question I am struggling with lately is, how do we determine what commands are to be considered cultural commandments, and what commands are to be eternal commands?
Thanks,
Michael
Lisa R on 28 Apr 2008 at 6:23 pm #
Alyssa,
I do agree that many have utilized the complementarian position as a recipe to support their abuse and dominance. But I do not believe those who have gone this path have understood what authority and submission is about. Nor do I believe that we can say the egalitarian position fits simply because there are men who have abused.
I also think “power” is a misnomer. For power implies the abuses you alude to. I will reiterate my comment from earlier that authority should not negate mutual submission. I believe authority is where the buck stops. I think we should divorce the concept of submission with power, because it has the connotation of inferiority. To say that men should have the authority in a marriage or as church leader does not undermine all the giftedness that is unique to us, both individually and gender-wide. We bring our contributions that are different than men’s. A godly male leader, whether it be at home or church, should welcome that, embrace and nourish it. We are not second-class citizens but I’m afraid the complementarian position is being construed as such.
Cadis on 28 Apr 2008 at 7:15 pm #
I have a disclaimer too!
alyssa
I just noticed, after reading through the post again, including others who have commented, and I want to address something in particular that I think Alyssa was getting at….YES, I do allow it, I willingly submit and answer to my husband. YES I do allow him to make decissions and yes that is definately a decission on my part, in other words it does not always come naturally, for the most part it does but sometimes I do have to work at it and bite my tongue at times…it is by my allowance.( figure that into the scheme of things)
LisaR, you always say things so well
Lisa R on 28 Apr 2008 at 7:38 pm #
Thanks Cadis. I wanted to highlight one thing you said…”it does not come naturally”. Going back to beloved passage that speaks about these men/women things in Eph 5, perhaps the reason that the instruction is directed the way it is, is because men and women will not naturally be inclined to submit to one another in the manner according to the instruction.
A wife submitting to a husband is not what women will be inclined to do. A husband loving his wife sacrificially is not what men will be inclined to do.
I also think it is interesting how we honor the concept of authority in other places. Consider how we view our bosses if we are employees or how we view law enforcement. And what about the military. But when it comes to home and church, its a big deal.
Nathchari on 28 Apr 2008 at 8:14 pm #
I am interested in seeing some more comments on the single female who decides to stay single in order to devote all herself to God. Unless a Christian woman has to find her “God-ordained” help meet and stick to volunteering for childcare until God brings her her spiritual leader.
Lisa R on 28 Apr 2008 at 10:03 pm #
Well Nathchari, that would describe me somewhat. I have been a widow for almost 4 years, raising my 10 year old son alone. While I do hope that one day that will change, my attitude is to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, to embrace what He will have for me now. And for now, I’m off to seminary in the fall. Who knows what the Lord will do through this journey? The sky is the limit.
If and when He would want me to have a mate that will happen when He sees fit.
Greg on 28 Apr 2008 at 11:10 pm #
Jgoodwin, Re: #39
From Wayne Grudem’s book “Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth, page 84, he gives several lists on positions that hold authority over a congregation, from ones of great authority, to ones of least authority.
The book can be read online here: http://www.efbt100.com/evangelical_feminism.pdf#page=84
Alyssa B-D on 28 Apr 2008 at 11:32 pm #
Michael Phillips,
Where do I see men’s and women’s roles at church? I’m also egalitarian at church. I see general distinctions between men and women, but I don’t think there are necessary gender distinctions in authority or leadership. So, yes, men and women are different, but that doesn’t inherently mean that one should always be “over” the other.
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 12:04 am #
Lisa R (Re. #54),
I’m sorry — Rereading my comment it does seem that I’m using abuse to argue more directly for egalitarianism than I intended to. I definitely DO NOT think that complementarianism is inherently abusive! What I meant to say in my original comment is that I feel egalitarianism works more universally IMO because it is inherently, well, equal. There is no extreme view of it that allows for abuse. More info here:
http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/pdf_files/free_articles/PPWIN05_preato.pdf
As for the word “power”…
I use the word cautiously and consciously, although I know that it makes some people uncomfortable. I use it because I feel that it is, in fact, the most accurate descriptor of the “bottom line” situation that we previously discussed. Let me explain: every person has, in my opinion, the ability to make choices about his/her life. That is power over one’s self. It could also be called control (thus “self-control”). Complementarian women give some of the day-to-day decisions to their husbands, which means that the balance of power shifts toward the husband. I mean this in the most practical sense — the wife may find herself moving or making a life change she wouldn’t choose, but she gives that decision to the husband, which allows him the power to determine their course as he feels God is directing, rather than as SHE feels God is directing. By definition he has more power, because she defers to him 100% of the time that there is a disagreement.
This, of course, assumes that they are hearing God lead in two different directions. We all agree that when we agree on God’s leading we go that way!
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 12:07 am #
Cadis and Lisa R,
Regarding the fact that submission does not come naturally to women I would wholeheartedly agree. However I would say, sadly, that neither submission nor love comes naturally to either my depraved self or my depraved husband.
I would definitely not say that men are more naturally submissive and thus need to work on love, or that women are more naturally loving and thus need to work on submission. I see love and submission as alllllmost the same thing, something that we are sadly terrible at in our natural state.
Sue on 29 Apr 2008 at 1:29 am #
Concerning the evidence,
* Adam was created first.
* Eve was created as a completer.
* Adam named Eve.
* God spoke to Adam first after the Fall.
* Adam, not Eve, represents the human race in the Fall (Romans 5:12-19).
* The curse brought distortion of previous roles, not the introduction of new roles.
Michael,
I have enormous difficulty with this list being called evidence.
1. Christ was the second Adam and was superior to the first Adam.
2. Eve was created as a supporter beside man, or an equal ally. This was completion but there is no hint of subordination in the word ezer.
3. Hagar named God. Sometimes naming reflects a recognition of innate qualities in someone else.
4. Adam may represent the human race but he does not rule the human race. I do not see a connection between his representation and rulership.
5. When you write,
“The curse brought distortion of previous roles, not the introduction of new roles.”
I especially fail to see how this was fact established. The fact that Eve was subordinate before the fall was veiled from civilization for 15 centuries at least, if not more.
I think you will find that up until the 16th century, Gen. 3:16 was translated,
“To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.”
This is the Douay Rheims translation which translates the Vulgate and the LXX. So this is the translation of the early church. I believe that many of the church fathers are quite explicit that Eve was subordinated to Adam, either by her transgression or by the curse.
I have never seen any robust evidence for the subordination of women in creation.
I realize that Gen. 3:16 now has a new hermeneutic but I would like someone to be open about the fact that “you will want to control man” is a neologism and a rather convenient one at that.
I don’t find this rather sketchy overview to be particularly useful unless you expect to simply influence people who are not aware of the history of biblical interpretation.
I would consider the rulership of one man over one woman to be part of the curse. It creates an imbalance of power. The fact is that even in the most civilized countries, women suffer the greatest injuries from the male they are most closely associated with. As a sheer safety issue, i think we should be able to do better than this.
On other topics, it is eminently clear that women do head up households and always have. Who was head of the home for Lydia, Phoebe, Chloe, Nympha, and so on. We cannot confuse the need for leadership and provision with gender. Women takes as much responsibility as any man.
Stan G from Bayonne on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:25 am #
In the book “The Female Brain” by Loauann Brizendine, M.D., she points out a couple points that most of us probably realize via general observation but are none-the-less important to note anyway:
1. Anterior Cingulate Cortex - weights optons, makes decisions and is essentially the worry center of the brain and this part of the brain is larger in women then in men.
2. Pre-frontal Cortex - rules emotions and keeps them from going wild and again is larger in woman then in men. Teen girls mature faster then boys by 1 or 2 years.
3. Insula - manages “gut feelings” and is larger in women then in men.
4. Amygdala - the instinctual, wild core tamed only by the Pre-frontal cortex and is larger in Men.
5. Hippocampus - the elephant that never forgets a fight, a romantic encounter or a tender moment. No one needed to tell me this was larger in women then in men.
Simply put, men and women were made to be different by God and therefore men “on average” tend to be better at some things and women tend to be better with other things.
I think when women try to be men and vice versa in their roles societal problems will creep in but just how much I’m not quite sure yet.
This is a very interesting topic and I’ll go on record here as saying I’m more of an Egalitarian at this point then a Complimentarian but clearly on average men do tend to take leadership roles more often simply because we were made that way. Culture impacts our behaviors and so forth but ultimately God made us the way He made us.
Michael J. Phillips on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:21 am #
Alyssa,
I think the scriptures are pretty clear that a woman should not be the preacher.
It is not that one should always be “over” the other. I think that is where cruelty has crept in over the years. I do think that there are roles that are defined, and these should be submitted to, as God has defined the roles, not man.
Michael
JohnO on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:46 am #
Michael J Phillips,
Please can you point me to the bits of scripture where God states that women cannot be preachers?
John
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:57 am #
Michael J. Philips,
You said: “I think the scriptures are pretty clear that a woman should not be the preacher.”
Yes, that’s the beginning of the discussion. That’s what makes you a complementarian. I feel that Scripture is clear that there is no prohibition on women preaching, which is what makes me an egalitarian.
I think “over” is a great descriptor here. “Different” masks the fact that one person (or gender) is making the final decisions while the other is not. The truth of the complementarian viewpoint is that one gender is, in fact, over the other. If someone in your life had the final authority for a group you were in, they would be your boss, no?
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:15 am #
CMP,
Here I have some questions.
1. A few complementarians that I know have told me that they derive their marriage relationship from the analogy of Christ and the church given in Scripture. I wholeheartedly agree, but feel that different parts of the analogy fit. They feel that the AUTHORITY relationship between Christ and the church should be emulated. I feel that the CLOSENESS part should be emulated. Anyway, they all fall into the “if it comes down to it, the man makes the decision” camp. I don’t understand how that reflects the authority of Christ over the church. To me, Christ has all of the power over the church. If I felt it was supposed to be that way with my husband I would be walking behind him in his footsteps and waiting to obey his every command, the way I attempt to do with Christ. It wouldn’t just be “if it comes down to it.” Can you explain how an “if it comes down to it” relationship mirrors the authority of Christ?
2. Why all the messing with vocabulary? Complementarians assert that only the man can make final decisions, but are uncomfortable when I say that the sole final decision-maker has power. Isn’t that inherently true? They are defined as believing women and men are functionally unequal, but get nervous when I say that one is “over” the other — to me this is synonymous with “Functional inequality.” When I asked about your position in your family you seemed to say that it is a place of greater responsibility, yet in your definition of the complementarian position you say men and women have “equal responsibility before God.” What is going on with all of the vocabulary?
Lisa R on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:16 am #
In his series “Life Lessons for Women” on the Insight for Living broadcast, today Chuck Swindoll spoke about what it means to submit found in the Eph 5 passage. It is definately worth a listen. What timing!
Stephen on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:31 am #
Interestingly, I blogged about the same thing about 3 years ago while I was in Bible college and was pretty much crucified because of it. God forbid we acknowledge the differences between men and women. While I’m not in agreement with Michael’s position regarding women in “authority” over men in churches, I do appreciate his thoughts. We’re different! Praise God, we’re different! Isn’t that a good thing?
clearblue on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:00 am #
There are, of course, some (Christian?) women who believe that men and women are NOT biologically different. See Elaine Storkey’s book Created or Constructed, the Great Gender Debate. A review is available at CBMW.
I once remember hearing a radio panelist being asked which was her favourite Olympic sport. The panelist said that her favourite sport was horse-riding, because it was the only
sport at which men and women could compete against each other. I had to chuckle at the self-refuting nature of her argument - women could not compete with men at any sport except one where horses had to do all the work.
Not sure if this idea of radical equality is really held by Christian women, but I’m sure it will be in the future as Christian feminists become more radical. Elaine Storkey certainly seems inclined towards some of the arguments.
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:16 am #
Clearblue,
Can you tell me how you feel Christian feminists are becoming more radical? When did the trajectory start, as you see it?
Michael J. Phillips on 29 Apr 2008 at 12:34 pm #
Alyssa,
I guess the “over” part of this makes me uneasy in that I do not see myself as over my wife in this sense. That term is baited and carries a lot of baggage. In Christendom past, men would use this thought and these passages of scripture to wrongfully subject their wifes into a subservient/unequal relationship. When an egalitarian, such as yourself, brings the word “over” into the conversation, this is the baggage that is attached. The men in the past (many in the present as well) were clearly wrong in how they treated their wives, and wrong in their relationship to God.
With that, I try to lead my family in service to God, not as if I am the god of my house. I feel the scriptures teach that I am the final decision maker, and that God is going to hold me accountable as to how I lead my household. I take into consideration what my wife has to say with regards to any and all decisions our family is faced with, but when all is said and done, it is God who has made me responsible to lead my family in a Godly manner. Out of service to Him, I try (and fail) to lead us as He would want. My wife is not unequal, but we are not the same either. God has given us different roles, and we can choose to accept and fulfill these roles. Or we can believe the lie, that we are not who God says we are, that the world should dictate our roles, that what God says is not actually the truth, or that the plans God has laid out are not, in fact what is best for us, but rather He is keeping something good from us (see Gen. 3:1-7).
As my first post stated, this is a very interesting topic. The first question must be, are we going to allow God to define us, or are we going to let society (ourselves and others) define us?
MJP
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 1:10 pm #
Michael Philips,
So is it sort of like a parent-child relationship? Both are equal in value, but one has to make the final decision in the best interest of the other?
Michael J. Phillips on 29 Apr 2008 at 2:10 pm #
I don’t know that any analogy will suffice, and my relationship with my wife and my relationship with my children are completely different. I think it is much more like the relationship Christ has with His bride.
The relationship that matters most is my relationship to God. If that is in line (mine is hardly perfect), then my relationships with people will be as they should.
Where the facist men of years past have missed the point is there unwillingness to die to themselves for the betterment of their family. If I am making decisions to serve myself, then I will fail miserably. If I make decissions to serve my Father, the ultimate authority, then I will make proper decisions.
Eph 4:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the chruch and gave Himself for it!
This is the mandate on how I should live, and this is the role that God has defined for me in Scripture.
MJP
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 2:41 pm #
The way you were explaining it, though, it did sound like a parent-child relationship. The “equality” ends when you make all the final decisions. It’s sweet that you do it in your opinion of your wife’s best interest, but that doesn’t mean that she has a final vote.
Equality is two people having an equal vote.
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 2:43 pm #
Also, if it reflects Christ and the church, then shouldn’t you make all the decisions about how she lives her daily life? I strive to allow Christ to make all the decisions in my life and I follow behind him. In no way do I consider him an equal — He holds all the cards!
Michael J. Phillips on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:59 pm #
Here is the problem, though. “Equality” does not mean “same.” In your world, I would be able to mandate that my wife allow me to carry our next child. God, who defines our roles, did not define our roles as “same.” Am I less of a parent, or less of an “equal” parent because I do not carry the child? I think not, I think I have a different role.
As I said, analogies do not always equate. My relationship to Christ is not exactly my relationship to my wife. But what I do get out of that scripture is the mandate God has placed on my life.
Furthermore, what Christ did for His bride was done in submission to the Father. God defined the relationsip of the persons of the trinity, and Christ submitted to that Authority. I think that is how I am supposed to approach my life, and I think that is how my wife is supposed to approach her life.
When you “strive to allow Christ to make all the decisions in [your] life,” how do you deal with the passage that states, “wives submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as Christ is head of the Church?” Eph 5:22-23
I do not as with any arrogance. I am really appreciating the discussion, and I would like to further understand your position. I understand that my interpretations are not without fault (I wish they were), so through this conversation I hope to continue to grow.
MJP
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:15 pm #
MJP,
I definitely don’t mean same. I mean equal. Can you define equal for me? Maybe we could go from there.
I definitely submit to my husband regularly, as he does to me also every day, and we both submit to Christ. The word “submit” is actually not in 5:22. All it says is “Wives, to your husbands.” For the actual word “submit” we have to go to 5:21, which says, “Submit to one another in brotherly love.” That is the rule of our marriage — not a one-way submission, but mutual.
I really don’t think we’re disagreeing about whether we should all submit to God/Christ here. We agree on that.
The question is whether men and women are equal (meaning they share equal say over their life together). I think redefining equal to mean inequal could get confusing…. I definitely don’t mean “same.” I mean their vote is weighted the same.
Michael J. Phillips on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:02 pm #
Alyssa,
NKJV and NASB have submit/be subject, in verse 22.
My inference to submission to God is in the roles defined by God in scripture, and the mandates that accompany those roles. If we subvert the Scriptures, we are no longer submitting ourselves to God. Verse 21 is talking about the relationship of believers to other believers, in general. Verse 22-33 is talking about husband and wife relationships, a more specific relationship. In this context, how do you read “For the husband is head of the wife?” I do not think God is creating a divide between equals, but defining roles for these equals. The mandate on the husband to love as Christ has loved should take all maliciousness out of his intentions. And the implications are that a Christlike husband will always seek what is best for his wife, but it appears to me that God has defined these roles for us. Creating us not as sames, but as equals.
The problem with weighting votes the same is that in the economy of God we do not have a democracy. How do ties get broken in your house should you and your husband not vote the same way? After prayer and discussion, if you are still not in agreement, who submits, and how is this determined?
Luke 22:42 Jesus prayed, “Father, if it is your will, remove this cup from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
Do you see Christ and Father as unequal? Or is it submission, within the Godhead, of the person of the Son to the person of the Father.
MJP
Alyssa B-D on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:40 pm #
MJP
Here’s a link to the interlinear (Greek/English) Ephesians 5, which shows that the word submit is not found in verse 22, but it refers back to verse 21. If you look in your NASB, it should be in italics to show it was added for clarity after the paragraph was put in between the two verses.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/eph5.pdf
I think it’s safe to say that verses 21 and 22 are not on two distinct subjects (all vs. family) — they share the word “submit.” It would be a bit odd to think that the husband should submit to all Christians except his wife, wouldn’t it?
I feel that kephale (head) refers to the source in this situation, as in “headwater.” Please see Dr. Belezekian’s article “I believe in Male Headship” in comment #51 above, for a more thorough explanation.
I agree that in God’s economy we do not have a democracy, but I would also assert that we do not have a dictatorship. In fact, it seems totally out of line with the rest of the paragraph to me for ANYONE to have “the final say” when submission to God and each other is the hallmark of the Christian life.
When my husband and I disagree we pray more. We have never had a situation where it “came down to it” and we did not agree, but if we did one of us would submit. In fact on day-to-day issues, there have been times when we’ve BOTH submitted and ended up arguing each others’ points! Why do you think it must always be the same person to submit in every circumstance based on gender? Again, being a “tie breaker” does not seem to go with the rest of the Biblical example of sacrifice and submission.
Again, however you define equality, your wife’s opinion of what to do for your family does not carry as much weight as yours. Mine carries the same weight as my husband’s. That is the critical difference.
Michael J. Phillips on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:15 pm #
Wives, to your husbands, as to the Lord.
I will go with your translation, but you placed a period at the end of husbands. There should be a comma. This leads to, as to the Lord. Submit in v. 21 doesn’t go with v. 22. That is why the implied submit is added.
I guess the reason we have chosen to function in this manner is because scripture seems to say so. Again, your assesments about the remainder of scripture are right, and should not be subverted. But within this stretch of scripture the responsibility is placed on me to lead, and with that leadership comes the resposibility to make decisions.
“your wife’s opinion of what to do for your family does not carry as much weight as yours.”
On the contrary, my wife’s opinion of what I do for my family matters more than my opinion of what I do for my family. But we have decided to allow God to define our roles, and follow God’s mandate from scripture, understanding that equal does not mean same. Rather than following society’s mandates and allowing society to define our roles.
A couple of books that my wife suggested I tell you about are: The Excellent Wife: A Biblical Perspective by Martha Peace and Created to Be His Help Meet: Discover How God Can Make Your Marriage Glorious by Debi Pearl
I must go to work now, thanks for the discussion.
MJP
Ellen on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:45 pm #
Alyssa B-D , how do we know for sure where Paul put the verse numbers?
The closeness vs. submission dichotomy is a false one. When we submit more fully to Christ, we are closer to Him.
When our marriages more closely reflect Christ and the church, we may very well reflect that closeness as well. I know that when I was married, the more I was able to submit, the closer I was.
Sue on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:20 pm #
Where do the scriptures say that the man is the leader? And why is the leadership of the household tied to gender? Clearly Lydia was the leader of her household, and many other NT women. Aren’t all single mothers the providers, protectors and decision-makers?
If a female decision is good enough for a single woman why not in the context of marriage? Clearly women were created to function as protectors and providers just as men are.
I simply don’t get this at all.
You may find female submission in the scripture. I also see male sacrifice, but women also sacrifice. And men submit, that is clear. So the pair is firmly sacrifice and submission, a reciprocity. There is no mention of leadership.
The evidence for kephale meaning “ruler” or “authority” does not exist. When Grudem says that the king was the head of the nation, he is refering loosely to a line in Philo where Philadelphus was called the kephale of the family of Ptolemies, his father and his descendants, because he was more illlustrious than them. He was never their ruler.
In another book Philo describes the man who is the kephale as a man of virtue who should stand as a model of excellence. There is no indication that this virtuous man has any governing authority whatsoever.
I am very surprised, since Philo is available on the internet in English that people do not read it themselves and find that there is no king who was ever “head of his nation.”
The Greek word kephale and the English word “head” do not function metaphorically in similar ways. I don’t think that the man is the model of excellence for his wife, but rather that the meaning of kephale must be revisited with accurate research.
Michael J. Phillips on 30 Apr 2008 at 1:17 am #
Sue,
Eph 5:23 says, “The husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church” This appears to me to say the husband is to lead the wife, as Christ leads the Church. The remainder of the passage put emphasis on what leadership should look like, and it should NOT look like a dictatorship.
Gen 3:16 says, “your (woman’s) desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
Col 3:18 says, “wives be subject to your husbands as is fitting in the Lord, Husbands love your wives and do not be embittered against them.”
Titus 2:5 says, “to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.”
I Peter 3 says, “In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external–braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear. 7 You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.”
I Timothy 2 says, “11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.” This appears to show roles defined from creation, not after.
Sue said—->”Clearly women were created to function as protectors and providers just as men are.”
I don’t think that this is so clear. I think they can function as protectors and providers, but I do not think that they were created to be protectors and providers. Just as men can function as nurturers, but I do not think men were created to be as such.
There is much in scripture that has “grey” area. There is some places that the scriptures are very black and white. I believe that this area is pretty black and white. I will once again provide the disclaimer, I could be wrong in my interpretation.
The scriptures command that husbands love their wives, but do not command that wives love their husbands. The scriptures command that wives be subject to their husbands, but command that husbands be subject to Christ, not their wives. I understand that reciprocity are also implied, but clear commands are given. I do not think subverting the commands of scripture is allowing God to define us, but rather is our way of allowing society to define us.
I am off to bed, thank you all for the discussion,
MJP
Sue on 30 Apr 2008 at 2:06 am #
Michael,
Thanks for answering.
In Eph. the pairs are not “lead and submit” but rather
Christ and the church
head and body
husband and wife
sacrifice and submit
The head also nourishes the body. I have not seen any reference to the husband as leader. I am not saying that Christ is not leader, but that this is not the reference here.
The fact is that there is no evidence that the “head” is the leader. This is just assumed but it strays significantly from the literal text. This really is not a fair treatment of the pairings that the passage establishes.
I think you must agree that it is a good thing for women to provide and protect and for men to nurture. The fact is that nurturing may be experienced in a different way physically for the different sexes, but nonetheless, as a character trait these things are equally desirable and equally necessary. Look at all the women protectors, Miriam, Deborah, Jael, Rahab, Lydia and so on.
In the gospels the women provided. It is a good thing for women to provide and protect. The Proverbs 31 woman was a provider.
I can’t see how this is black and white. Moses and Paul both spoke of the leadership role as being nurses to children.
I have to say that the division of male and female into protectors and nurturers is one thing that I don’t see anywhere in the scriptures or in real life, since half of households are lead by women. Certainly women are poorer because they do not establish careers as easily as men do, but they do lead households, and even the most godly women do this. This dichotomy is disrespectful and rejecting of men who nurture and women who provide. Is there some scripture passage that says that protecting and providing belongs to the male?
The scriptures command us that you treat others as you want them to treat you. I have to say that I am very puzzled at how much of this is simply assumed to be true, but is not developed from scripture.
Surely you do not mean to say that wives don’t have to love their husbands. So also men must submit to their wives. Reciprocity is found in love and respect on both sides, as 1 Cor. 7 commands. It is mutual.
Sue on 30 Apr 2008 at 2:16 am #
Michael,
I am sorry. I feel that I have not expressed myself well. I guess I just don’t see a connection between the scriptures quoted and the model as it is presented. I think of women like Catherine Booth who was a mother, and a preacher and leader. The two don’t seem to be mutually exclusive in real life.
Lisa R on 30 Apr 2008 at 5:26 am #
Sue,
I want to ask you a question and others who hold to your position a question and I hope you don’t mind. Do you have a problem with the complementarian position, and specifically with the man being the leader, because you don’t think it is supported by scripture or do you have a problem with it because it rubs against your grain personally?
The idea of submission to a man is a tough pill to swallow, if we consider it from a cultural and humanistic perspective. Heck, we are gifted and leaders and has that not been demonstrated in many of households and workplaces? And even the biblical examples you cite do suggest that leadership qualities have not been wasted on us. My own life has shown this as well.
But since the christian life is one that is subject to God, I think we have to consider things from His vantage point despite how we may feel or even how the reality of culture (see Romans 12:1-2). The fact that many households are headed by women (including mine btw) I don’t think can be used to support the ideal. The ideal is that which God has saw fit to lay out in scripture, despite the reality of culture.
This means we have to be honest with the text and honestly I do see clearly based on the scriptures that Michael laid out, the man is the head of his household. To say that Eph 5:23 says Christ leads the church but the man does not lead the woman, I don’t think is being honest with the text. You ask where does it say that men are leaders. Consider I Timothy 3:4-5, which lists the qualifications of an overseer. The man manages the household.
In one of my earlier comments, I had encouraged folks to listen to the Insight for Living broadcast from yesterday. One thing that Chuck Swindoll said, which I believe should be the foundation for these discussions, is that submission is part of the christian life. Jesus submitted to the Father, Jesus submitted to the humiliation of the cross. He laid His life down for us. And so our encouragement in scripture is for us to give our lives to Him on His terms. So we consider the mutual submission we are to have one to another as Eph 5:21 says. And if that is ideally played out with wives being subject to husbands and husbands loving wives, would it not go well with us to follow that order? It is for our protection and not our harm.
Sue on 30 Apr 2008 at 9:33 am #
Lisa
You talk about submission to the man as a tough pill and and comparable to the humiliation of the cross. I would concur with you here. In a fallen world we are called to submission and I appreciate that more than I can explain here.
What I protest is that this tough pill and humiliation was intended in creation. I do not believe that God created the world in order for sin to rule, in order for men to dominate women or in order for Christ to die a painful death. These are the things which sin has introduced into the world.
So you put it well, submission to a man has been a tough pill for many women, physically and emotionally. There is no doubt that this does affect how we read scripture.
My problem with Michael’s post is that this blog is called “reclaiming the mind” but I do not see any argumentation that leads from scripture to the conclusions that man is the leader of the household or the ideal protector and provider. Proverbs 31 demonstrates otherwise.
I feel deeply connected to the many women in the scripture who were the decision makers of their household, Lydia, Chloe, Nympha, Joanna, Phoebe, the elect lady, and so on. I don’t feel so connected to Sapphira.
I am not sure where the idea comes from that the man manages the house in the scriptures. There is a Greek word for “manage the house” which also means to be “head of the house” and it is used once in the Bible. 1 Tim 5:14,
“So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.”
A true complementarian household would see the man in a role of leadership outside the home such as the husband of the Proverbs 31 woman, and the wife in a role of leadership in the home, such as here in 1 Tim. This woman, and clearly other women of the scriptures, were in charge of the domain of hospitality. This kind of complementarity by domain has absolutely no connection to the ruler and subject model presented here.
This complementarity is a complementarity of equals and gives women a space to exercise their gifts. I do not promote this model - women have much to offer the church in terms of scholarship, and should not be constrained in the home. However, at least this is a model which I can with some honesty construct from scripture and the one presented on this blog is not.
I am asking for attention to the scripture in this matter and the inclusion of women in the reflections on the role of women.
lizard on 30 Apr 2008 at 11:07 am #
Greetings to everyone! I have been a silent bystander on this blog for some time, and have greatly enjoyed learning from each and every one of the blogs and comments. I haven’t commented yet largely because my thoughts and questions on the matter (whatever it may be) is usually brought up and addressed in a manner that is more intelligent and concise than I could have accomplished. This is probably the case with this issue as well, only it’s a topic I am very passionate about and thus want to join in the fun :0)
One of the things that confuses me about complementarianism is the…well, the egalitarianism with which many on this forum approach it. Meaning, (and I know someone has asked this already, but I don’t feel it was responded to in depth), if we were to actually take all the verses about women literally, women would not be able to speak in church, would have to wear head coverings, and would be thought of as “weaker, because she is a woman” as mentioned in timothy (I think?) Instead what I’m seeing here is what I would call the “PC” version of complementarianism. So how do you guys decide which verses to throw out as inconsequential, and which are to be seen as eternal truths to live by? I ask this partially because I don’t get the process by which this occur (or I do, and don’t think it’s particularly scholarly - I picture it much the way that I, to my shame, often deal with difficult scripture: “well, this part about head coverings and speaking in church can’t possibly apply to us, so I’ll just write it off as cultural”…and I presume complementarians have other means of discernment in these matters) and partially because I’ve been observing my sister’s marriage for a while now - they’re complementarians - and have seen my sister’s spouse insist that she wear a head covering to church because he could not find a valid reason to ignore the scripture. Now, I’m not stating my opinion on any of this, but would like to know why “women shouldn’t speak in church”, “women should cover their heads”, “treat your wife as someone weaker because she is a woman”, and “women shall be saved through childbirth” are seen as less true than “wives submit to your husbands” and “women shouldn’t be in authority over men” (Obviously, I’m paraphrasing here).
Also, and on a bit of an offshoot conversation, what defines a woman? I don’t think this has been addressed at all. For instance, I’ve met a woman who had a Y chromosome (as well as two Xs) - is she less of a woman? Does she get some male roles since she has a male chromosome? Or is she just not addressed in the Bible at all because she is a biological abnormality and thus has no place in God’s kingdom? Do reproductive organs define a woman? Or the ability to have children? If a woman is sterile, is she less of a woman? Or if she is born with defects in her reproductive organs? What about those born with both male and female parts? Do they get to choose while roles they have to play, or, like the woman with a Y chromosome, do they not have a part in God’s plan for relationships? What if you have a hormonal disorder?
I’m really not askin