My Heretical Postmodern Sympathies
When the history books are written, I suppose that people will begin to recognize the degree to which our culture has changed in its thinking over the last few years. When all is said and done, I believe that the internet will be seen as the catalyst to postmodernism in the same way the printing press was to modernism.
I sympathize with the confusion in our world today. I am not riding the boat, but I do understand why people are floating upstream.
I was on campus at the University of Oklahoma today. I had lunch with a young Christian student. We began talking about relativism, skepticism, tolerance and the like. Being a Christian raised in a very conservative home, this young man expressed disgust at the attitude of the postmoderns on campus. “Your truth is your truth. My truth is my truth.” Isn’t this what they all say? I asked him if he sympathized with such a statement. Of course, the right Christian answer is “no.” Wait, it is “*%ll NO!”
I do.
At least I understand why people would find opting for confusion, apathy, and, most of all, agnosticism toward questions of spirituality attractive.
Think about this. Before the communications revolution, people only had about 150 people in their shoulder-rubbing community. Whether this be work, school, neighbors, or church, people’s social reach did not get to far. Everyone in your community thought the same, talked the same, went to the same church, had the same kindergarten teacher, had the same selection of soda-pop at the local gas station, and had the same home town pride. If it was a Christian community, which most were, you were all taught by the same pastor and went to the same youth group. For better or for worse, you were isolated in your lives. If there were people who did not agree with your view of Christ, the Bible, and baptism—or worse, if there were those who worshiped other god’s, you simply heard about them from afar (probably from your pastor). You never saw them face to face, you never talked to them, you never met their family, and you certainly were not friends with them. You may have even called them “heathen.”
Oh the comfort of isolation. Oh the truth in our community. Oh the damnation of those who are not like us. Thank you Lord that you put me here, with this pastor, with these parents, and with Ms. Davis, my wise Sunday-school teacher.
Ok, on to reality.
Fast forward 100 years (or even 20 years). Globalized culture. Internet. World news. Pluralist society.
We cannot be naive anymore. Things are not quite as comfortable as they once were. The unintentional obscurantism of our previous community has been exposed. The curtain to the outside world has been dropped. We can now see the faces of “the damned.” The age of communication has changed everything.
Before, I could just hear about the heathen.
Now they are in my internet chat rooms.
(and you know what, they don’t seem so evil).
Before, I heard stories about their pagan gods.
Today I just got an email from one who worships one of these gods. He is offering his help to my family.
(help me, I have never offered to help them).
Before, I read about how some people actually have same-sex relationships.
Now one of my best friends is gay
(and he is more compassionate than I am)
Before, all of those people “out there”—those not like me—were going to a fiery eternal hell, and it was well deserved in my opinion.
Now my internet friends from My Space are going to hell
(and I don’t want them to).
The sheltered reality that prevented postmodernism is no longer a luxury of any community. While such things have no bearing on truth, they affect our perception of reality.
I sympathize with this.
Don’t fault me for these sympathies. In fact, if you don’t have them, I might fault you. I believe in an eternal hell, the sinfulness of homosexuality, the reality of objective truth, the law of non-contradiction, the exclusivity of Christ, and the doctrine of unconditional election. I know that these are harder to believe than they were twenty years ago. I really do know that. They are harder for me to believe. I understand how and why people have changed. I have lived through this change. Because of this I understand the stumbling block of the Gospel to a greater degree than before.
My postmodern sympathies do not affect reality, but they may cause me to approach things differently.
My postmodern sympathies do not change the Gospel, but they do affect the way I present it.
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HereticalPostmodern Sympathies - Should Christians have unbelieving friends?
- Do you really believe in hell?
- Case Study in Church Discipline: What Does it Mean to Treat Someone as a “Gentile or Tax-Gatherer”?
- The Sex Talk
Alden on 24 Apr 2008 at 6:42 pm #
Great post, Michael. However, I think we need to come up with a new term for those of us who haven’t abandoned the concept of meta-narrative, but yet accept that modernism is a failed worldview and so have these “postmodern sympathies.” We aren’t modern, but neither are we postmodern.
Any ideas?
C Michael Patton on 24 Apr 2008 at 6:53 pm #
Christian?
Alden on 24 Apr 2008 at 7:05 pm #
Lol… That was brilliant…
crajay on 24 Apr 2008 at 9:16 pm #
Norman Geisler’s book “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist” is an excellent read on the topic of postmodernism and relativism. Geisler does a good job of avoiding too much theology, and he very lucidly and logically begins with the ability to know objective truth in the first chapters and by the end of the book he has made the logical and strong evidentiary case that Christ is who He claimed He was–the Son of God. Geisler also has several humorous college anecdotes for the “everything is relative” crowd. It’s definitely worth checking out on this timely subject.
Jeff Lash on 24 Apr 2008 at 9:34 pm #
I think that globalization is an interesting concept. Today we are a global community. People in America can keep in touch with people in India very easily. We know what is going on all around the globe. So we would say that our world is connected like never before. And yet, I believe that globalization has also created greater opportunity for anonymity. We can go about our business untouched and anonymous to the people around us with relative ease. Internet access gives us enough sense of “community” that we do not feel compelled to seek out community in the real world. So we isolate ourselves. As we isolate ourselves, we care less for the concerns of others. Within that depreciating concern it is easy to see how someone comes to believe and live in a state of relativism. Since I am less aware and concerned for others, what’s good for them is good for them and what’s good for me is good for me since those ideas never come into contact. We live in a state of practical relativism. It can even lead to a practical atheism where people don’t concern themselves with the questions of truth or God. Left alone, they are never challenged to think about truth, God, the meaning of life, or life after death.
So…I think there can be a sad irony to globalization in a postmodern world. And yet, here we see how great the need is for the gospel to permeate every part of the globe and every area of culture. We must engage people in truth and love.
I’m not completely sure how this relates. Your post just got me thinking a bit.
Chris Triplet on 24 Apr 2008 at 9:38 pm #
Great post and I agree with your thoughts and feelings.
I’m a very die hard Charismatic Calvinist like Dr. Sam Storms
and spend hours on Monergism.com and this website but
I also have friends who totally have another worldview
and those who don’t even know what a worldview is.
I have some homosexual friends and they are very nice
people. Heck, I would say they are good people but I
still believe in unconditional election and total depravity.
Sometimes my human emotions and sympathies make
me think wow! am I right? I know and have confidence
in my Calvinistic Christian worldview but gosh, I want
these people to believe in the things I do and not go
to Hell and wonder to themselves, why am I in this
horrible place?
I’m trying to understand how I can communicate Biblical
truth in this wacky postmodern world that says all
religions lead to God and Hell is only for the real baddies,
like Hitler.
Chris
Rebecca on 24 Apr 2008 at 10:25 pm #
Great post! I wandered on here during your emerging church posts and have found that it is definitely worth hanging around. I attend a small reformed urban church plant in a very diverse city and I have found it hard at times to know how to live out the gospel in such a relativistic arena. I think I naturally have tendencies toward relativistic thinking, but I was raised to have firm convictions by much more black and white parents. In addition, I have a faith firmly grounded in an intellectual understanding of Christianity, not just a “feel-y” relationship. I appreciate the encouragement to love God with all my mind that I find here on your blog. Please keep posting!
L P Cruz on 25 Apr 2008 at 1:24 am #
My postmodern sympathies do not change the Gospel, but they do affect the way I present it.
But if something has to be represented each time a fresh batch of new culture comes along, it ain’t the Gospel.
The Gospel is the story of our demise and the story of God’s rescue in Christ. It is the same story of God’s judgment and God’s promise of a savior ever since Adam left the Garden.
What is there to re-present when in fact it is the same story of our separation from God and his promise reconciliation in Christ?
LPC
britphil on 25 Apr 2008 at 5:19 am #
Michael…I agree with the folks on here,,,this is a great post
“My postmodern sympathies do not affect reality, but they may cause me to approach things differently.
My postmodern sympathies do not change the Gospel, but they do affect the way I present it.
I couldn’t agree more.
“What is there to re-present when in fact it is the same story of our separation from God and his promise reconciliation in Christ?”
LP - What we are trying to say is that we must present the same gospel but in a fresh way to each generation. It would appear to me that Paul used different approaches in Athens to present the same gospel as he did in say Ephesus or Corinth. H ewould also use imageas and metaphors which resonated with the people of the cities to whom he was seeking to make Jesus known.
“Great post! I wandered on here during your emerging church posts and have found that it is definitely worth hanging around. I attend a small reformed urban church plant in a very diverse city and I have found it hard at times to know how to live out the gospel in such a relativistic arena. I think I naturally have tendencies toward relativistic thinking, but I was raised to have firm convictions by much more black and white parents. In addition, I have a faith firmly grounded in an intellectual understanding of Christianity, not just a “feel-y” relationship. I appreciate the encouragement to love God with all my mind that I find here on your blog. Please keep posting!”
Hi there Rebecca - it sounds as though we minister in a very similar urban church setting, although ours is not a plant, which sounds quite exciting. If it anyhting like our area you probably have some quirte difficult challehnges to meet on top of the relativism stuff, but it’s also a really good place to be and the people tend to keep you real don’t you find?
“I have some homosexual friends and they are very nice
people. Heck, I would say they are good people but I
still believe in unconditional election and total depravity.”
“Before, I read about how some people actually have same-sex relationships.
Now one of my best friends is gay
(and he is more compassionate than I am)”
Michael/Chris
I haven’t posted on this subject yet (but never fear I am sure to wade in there before long!), but thank you for your compassionate approach whilst wanting to remain true to biblical teaching.
When I do post more fully it will be a long the lines of the fact that four people I have known really well oin have all, all of whom have strong church backgrounds (one reformed Baptist, one Methodist, one open brethren and one Church of England) have all now declared themselves to be gay, have all left the church, all receivejhave all struggled to come to terms wirth their orientation, tell their staunchly Christoan family etc. The two worst cases were a college friend who had had a real conversion experience but was secretly still stuggling with his sexual orientation, yet when he plucked up the courage to teshare this with his church leaders looking for help and support he was shunned. He now lives with a guy and although this may have been inevitable, I feel it could have been avoided with more help and guidance than he received. Another guy left our church as a teenager becasue of a fallout his parents had with a member of the leadership, and insisted thier children left too (this guy was by now in his late teens). About a year later he declared that he was gay and I methim the other week and he said that whenever he walks into the church his parents now attend, albeit onlty for a social event as someone on the very fringes, he feels that apart from one or two peopel who are friendlty towards him everyone else’s eyes are staring at bhim with real hostility.
My question is this…why is the church the least safe place anyone struggling with their sexual orientation feels thay can be? There are horror stories in the UK in the past of a 23 year sone of a pastor of an evangelical church awho ended up committing suicide because he did not know how he could tell his preants, especially his father, or the church congregation wher ehe had grown up that he was gay without fear of being totally ostracised. Why is the church often the last place where people feel they can open up about this issue when it is really affecting them.
What treally bugs me is that I invested a lot of time in the friendship wit my college friend 9he did not even feel safe enough to tell me until much later, because of my evangelical leanings
which really saddens me. He made his Christian commitment (and I can assure you ate time it appeared very real - he took a collection made by his church in the UK for misssionaries for their link living in India, and personally travelled half way round the world to give it to them oin person)
britphil on 25 Apr 2008 at 5:41 am #
…just to continue very briefly…
This guy was an honest, genuine guy, he had read Paul’s writings on the subject and felt he had to make a choice. What saddens me is that there was no-one on hand to help him and pastor him through this difficult process. I am also concerned that the church tends to be extremely vocal on an issue upon which Jesus was virtually, if not totally silent - but we won’t go there!
Oops..I think I already waded in just a bit too far…time to swim back to shore I think and to relative safety!
SRH on 25 Apr 2008 at 8:31 am #
the method is the same as Paul on Mars Hill…Athens was as postmodern as you could get!
“Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you…”
(1 Cor 1:21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Jeff Lash on 25 Apr 2008 at 9:49 am #
Brit…it seems to me that the church is highly vocal on the issue of homosexuality because the issue has been escalated in Hollywood, politics, and media in general. It is certainly possible that some of the escalation is due to the response of conservatives (religious or political). The more vocal we become (almost violently vocal), the more it is brought up and played up in the media.
It is sad to hear about your friend. I agree with you…what happened to the church being a community who loves regardless of a person’s imperfections. Don’t we all have our imperfections, our flaws, our own struggles with sin? However, it takes less time to condemn and shun a person than to reach out a hand and walk with them through their struggles. Frankly, we are unwilling to “sacrifice” our time in order to help people, walk with people, and love people. I wonder what might have happened had the leadership and congregation taken time to love on him and get in the trenches with him as he wrestled with things. It is heartbreaking.
Matt Hardwick on 25 Apr 2008 at 9:53 am #
The conversation about re-presenting the gospel reminds me of this passage by Paul.
1 Corinthians 9:
19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
22To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
It seems to me that Paul had no qualms about refreshing his methods of presenting the gospel to reach more people. He also does it several times during his missionary journeys: Mars Hill, Rome, Jerusalem. All these locations represent a community that Paul wanted to reach, and adjusted his message accordingly. We are faced with the same problem today, except we have hundreds of communities to reach, and they are all very unique.
Great Post. I think that understanding how people around us think, feel, and act is crucial to serving them.
SRH on 25 Apr 2008 at 10:04 am #
“I am also concerned that the church tends to be extremely vocal on an issue upon which Jesus was virtually, if not totally silent - but we won’t go there!”
you could say He was totally silent on bestiality too.
But in fact, He was silent on neither…Jesus gave the Law to Moses…and made it quite clear. When the Church is having immorality shoved in their face with the insistence that we accept it, the answer has to be “no!” and here’s why, and here’s the solution. With EVERY sin.
Ben on 25 Apr 2008 at 10:09 am #
I’m with CMP on this one. The modernist worldview is too objective about everything, the post-modernist worldview is too relavtive about everything. Having met both modernist and post-modernist Christians and non-Christians… I really think they’re both missing something (although they both have good qualities to offer aswell… how post-modern is THAT!!!).
Alden: “We aren’t modern, but neither are we postmodern. Any ideas?”
”
CMP: “Christian?
Classic!
Ben on 25 Apr 2008 at 10:25 am #
SRH, although I agree that we should say ‘no’ to sin (although I think you can do this tactfully, you don’t necessarily need to hell-fire them… actually I’m not even going to argue why, we should just read how Jesus treated people in sin… which I think is a lot different to how the Church usually deals with it (I apologise for any generalisations)) I don’t believe that Christians and non-Christians go around shoving immorality into the face of the Church. Although you’re probably talking more about theological and political debates surrounding homosexuality, sex before marriage, etc. I think most people who are committing immorality to any degree DON’T shove it in the face of the Church. It seems they’re more scared of being ex-communicated and (as britphil put it so well) ostracised if anyone finds out, when the Church is one of the places where they should feel they are able to find support, council, love, and help with what they’re struggling through.
…And as a side note I’d like to say that I have struggles with certain things that I know are wrong but end up stumbling back into every so often that I would never tell anyone in my Church, and certainly not my pastor. How sad is that? And I don’t think I’m alone here… or am I?
Vance on 25 Apr 2008 at 11:25 am #
Very good points, Michael. And, while I agree that it should not shake our faith in the essentials you describe (other than than unconditional election bit!), it should definitely make us more humble about many of the non-essentials. Even within the Christian community we used to be in our own little microcosm of doctrine, practice and “way of being Christian” and had little knowledge of the faith outside of that. Now we are faced with the simple fact that the odds are dramatically against our little set of “Christian ways” being entirely the right ones and the other 90% of the Christian Church being wrong!
We realize that we MUST have a good chunk of what we believe either wrong, or not exclusively right. Very humbling, but also great for Christian growth and maturity.
SRH on 25 Apr 2008 at 11:28 am #
I said “When the Church is having immorality shoved in their face with the insistence that we accept it,” so no, i don’t think “most” do.
But that is never where the confrontation is. Most are silent.
But the loud-mouthed, politically-motivated, take-it-as-their-identity and wear-it-on-their-sleeve, do shove it in the church’s face. i know, i have a family member who is of that variety.
Ben on 25 Apr 2008 at 12:01 pm #
SRH, it seems I misunderstood your position, thanks for the clarity. And I do sympathize with the ‘loud-mouthed, politically-motivated, take-it-as-their-identity and wear-it-on-their-sleeve’ statement… you can’t really ‘help’ people like that.
Jason J on 25 Apr 2008 at 1:27 pm #
“In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity.” — Augustine.
JoanieD on 25 Apr 2008 at 5:00 pm #
Jason J…I do love that quotation from Augustine. I don’t see eye-to-eye with everything Augustine has said (though he is brilliant) but I like this statement.
Joanie D.
Alex on 25 Apr 2008 at 6:32 pm #
Amazing. THanks so much for this post. It is stirring up a lot of thought about society and culture yet really causing me even more so to pray for my friends and to reflect on my convictions.
Saint and Sinner on 25 Apr 2008 at 9:03 pm #
Good post! I think we all need to get out of the “Us-Them” mentality, me especially.
Thanks.
L P Crux on 25 Apr 2008 at 9:21 pm #
JoanieD,
That saying was not from Augustine.
It was from one of the Lutheran fathers of 17th century…
Peter Meiderlin
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/unitas/essrev.html
Also going back on the idea of presenting the Gospel, I can only go back to one of the principles of the First Protestants (the Lutherans) on their distinction of Law and Gospel. If you look at the text of Paul in Athens, you can see that Paul was dumping on them the Law - in Act 17:24. This verse is a summary of the first Table of the Law. So after stating this, he gives them The Gospel, see Acts 17:31.
Paul was rather looking for ways to apply the Law/Gospel story to them. I would not consider this as representing the Gospel as if the story needs to be modified for certain cultures.
The Law is already written in all people’s hearts, it is the Gospel that is not and always has to come from the outside of us coming in.
As for the homosexual who is already terrified by his sin, what he needs is not the Law because it is doing its job already, bringing us to despair, what he needs is the Gospel, that for Christ’s sake God punished his sin in Christ and now propels him to find his all in all in Christ.
LPC
Jerry T on 25 Apr 2008 at 9:59 pm #
As a Christian, one the thing I hate, yet continually come into contact with, is illiteracy, poor grammar or a lack of proofreading, such as in the blog/entry above. Unbelievers judge us by such lapses or lack of literacy.
C Michael Patton on 25 Apr 2008 at 11:32 pm #
Ouch!
C Michael Patton on 25 Apr 2008 at 11:35 pm #
Also known as Rupertus Meldenius. Great quote.
Ben on 26 Apr 2008 at 4:31 am #
i second that opinion Jerry… especially when it comes to capital ‘i’s for first-person pronouns!
JoanieD on 26 Apr 2008 at 5:52 am #
L P Cruz in #24….thanks for the correction on the quotation attributed wrongly to Augustine. I remember now we actually dealt with this same issue much earlier on this Parchment and Pen blog. Faulty memory here!
Joanie D.
Jason J on 26 Apr 2008 at 2:32 pm #
Thanks for the correction. I’ve always heard credit given to Augustine for the quote. Nice to give it to the right person =)
britphil on 27 Apr 2008 at 8:19 am #
“I am also concerned that the church tends to be extremely vocal on an issue upon which Jesus was virtually, if not totally silent - but we won’t go there!”
you could say He was totally silent on bestiality too.
But in fact, He was silent on neither…Jesus gave the Law to Moses…and made it quite clear. When the Church is having immorality shoved in their face with the insistence that we accept it, the answer has to be “no!” and here’s why, and here’s the solution. With EVERY sin.
SRH
I agree with you in objecting to the way some people are shove their views on certain stances in their faces. However, maybe it gives us a feeling of how non-churchgoers feel when the church presents the gospel in a way that can easily be considered as being aggressive and shoving Jesus in people’s faces. I do not think all churches act in this way by any means but there are some forms of evangelism which make me really cringe.
With regard to Jesus’ take on this subject I am far more concerned about the things that Jesus did get steamed up about and which we know what his feelings were because he made them plain. ie pride, envy, gossip, hypocrisy etc on which he had an awful lot to say, and which appear to be rife in many of our churches without a hair being turned or much issue being made or taken with people who display or even in some cases, actively pursue such qualities.
And finally, and this is where I wade in really deep almost over my head, but there is one section of the inspired, authoritative, infallible and inerrant (to take the strongly Calvinist viewpoint on Scripture) Word of God that most teachers tend to shy away from because the implications are too much for most people to envisage. We are informed in Scripture that Jesus was tempted in every way (by ‘every sin’) known to man but was without sin” I think we are fine about the ‘was without sin’ part of the Scripture, but I would like to ask …what does ‘tempted in every way’ actually mean…”tempted in every way…as the verse states or “tempted in every way except this sin or that sin etc etc” whereby we strike out those particular sins which we cannot envisage Jesus ever being tempted by until we have a list of sins that Jesus was tempted by that we find palatable.
I shall now retire to await the firing squad!
Lindsey on 27 Apr 2008 at 11:06 pm #
Jerry T,
“One the thing I hate” is that too! Try proofreading yours as well:)
Vance on 28 Apr 2008 at 11:39 am #
Lindsey, that was hilarious.