What Do You Mean by “Free Will”?

There are many words and concepts in theology that suffer from misunderstanding, mis-characterization, and misinformation. “Predestination,” “Calvinism,” “Total Depravity,” “Inerrancy,” and “Complementarianism”, just to name a few that I personally have to deal with. Proponents are more often than not on the defensive, having to explain again and again why it is they don’t mean what people think they mean.
The concept of “free will” suffers no less with regard to this misunderstanding. Does a person have free will? Well, what do you mean by “free will”? This must always be asked.
Do you mean:
- That a person is not forced from the outside to make a choice?
- That a person is responsible for his or her choices?
- That a person is the active agent in a choice made?
- That a person is free to do whatever they desire?
- That a person has the ability to choose contrary to their nature (who they are)?
Calvinists, such as myself, do believe in free will and we don’t believe in free will. It just depends on what you mean.
When it comes to the first four options, most Calvinist would agree that a person is not forced to make a choice, is responsible for their choices, and is the active agent behind those choices. They would reject the forth believing that a person is not free to do whatever they desire. In fact, no matter what theological persuasion you adhere to, historic Christianity agrees on the first four. This is very important to realize.
It is with the fifth option there is disagreement.
Does a person have the ability to choose against their nature?
This question gets to the heart of the issue. Here we introduce a new and more defined term: “Libertarian Free will” or “Libertarian Freedom.” Libertarian freedom can be defined briefly as “the power of contrary choice.”
If you ask whether a person can choose against their nature (i.e. libertarian freedom) the answer, I believe, must be “no.” A person’s nature makes up who they are. Who they are determines their choice. If there choice is determined, then the freedom is self-limited. Therefore, there is no “power” of contrary choice for we cannot identify what or who this “power” might be. I know, I know . . . slow down. Let me explain.
First, it is important to get this out of the way. To associate this denial of libertarian freedom exclusively with Calvinism would be misleading. St. Augustine was the first to deal with this issue in a comprehensive manner. Until the forth century, it was simply assumed that people were free and responsible, but they had yet to flesh out what this meant. Augustine argued that people choose according to who they are. If they are good, they make good choices. If they are bad, they make bad choices. These choices are free, they just lack liberty. In other words, a person does not become a sinner because they sin, they sin because they are a sinner. It is an issue of nature first. If people are identified with the fallen nature of Adam, then they will make choices similar to that of Adam because it is who they are. Yes, they are making a free choice, but this choice does not include the liberty of contrary choice.
What you have to ask is this: If “free will” means that we can choose against our nature (the power of contrary choice), if “free will” means that we can choose against who we are, what does this mean? What does this look like? How does a free person make a choice that is contrary to who they are? Who is making the choice? What is “free will” in this paradigm?
If one can choose according to who they are not, then they are not making the choice and this is not really freedom at all, no? Therefore, there is, at the very least, a self-determinism at work here. This is a limit on free will and, therefore, a necessary denial of libertarian freedom.
Think about all that goes into making “who you are.” We are born in the fallen line of Adam. Spiritually speaking we have an inbred inclination toward sin. All of our being is infected with sin. This is called “total depravity.” Every aspect of our being is infected with sin, even if we don’t act it out to a maximal degree.
But even if this were not the case,—even if total depravity were a false doctrine—libertarian freedom would still be untenable. Not only are you who you are because of your identification with a fallen human race, but notice all these factors that you did not choose that go into the set up for any given “free will” decision made:
- You did not choose when you were to be born.
- You did not choose where you were to be born.
- You did not choose your parents.
- You did not choose your influences early in your life.
- You did not choose whether you were to be male or female.
- You did not choose your genetics.
- You did not choose your temperament.
- You did not choose your looks.
- You did not choose your body type.
- You did not choose your physical abilities.
All of these factor play an influencing role in who you are at the time of any given decision. Yes, your choice is free, but it has you behind them. Therefore, you are free to choose according to you from whom you are not able to free yourself.
Now, I must reveal something here once again that might surprise many of you. This view is held by both Calvinists and Arminians alike. Neither position believes that a person can choose against their nature. Arminians, however, differ from Calvinists in that they believe in the doctrine of prevenient grace, which essentially neutralizes the will so that the inclination toward sin—the antagonism toward God—is relieved so that the person can make a true “free will” decision.
However, we still have some massive difficulties. Here are a few:
A neutralized will amounts to your absence from the choice itself. Changing the nature of a person so that their predispositions are neutral does not really help. We are back to the question What does a neutralized will look like? Does it erase all of the you behind the choice? If you are neutralized and liberated from you, then who is making the choice? How can you be held responsible for a choice that you did not really make, whether good or bad?
A neutralized will amounts to perpetual indecision. Think about this, if a person had true libertarian freedom, where there were no coercive forces, personal or divine, that influenced the decision, would a choice ever be made? If you have no reason to choose A or B, then neither would ever be chosen. Ronald Nash illustrates this by presenting a dog who has true libertarian freedom trying to decide between two bowls of dog food. He says that the dog would end up dying of starvation. Why? Because he would never have any reason to choose one over the other. It is like a balanced scale, it will never tilt to the right or the left unless the weights (influence) on one side is greater than the other. Then, no matter how little weight (influence) is added to a balanced scale, it will always choose accordingly.
A neutralized will amounts to arbitrary decisions, which one cannot be held responsible for. For the sake of argument, let’s say that libertarian choice could be made. Let’s say that the dog did choose one food bowl over the other. In a truly libertarian sense, this decision cannot have influences of any kind. Any decision without influences is arbitrary. It would be like flipping a coin. I chose A rather than B, not because of who I am, but for no reason at all. It just turned out that way. But this option is clearly outside a biblical worldview of responsibility and judgment.
Therefore, while I believe in free will, I don’t believe in libertarian free will. We make the choices we make because of who we are. We are responsible for these choices. God will judge each person accordingly with a righteous judgment.
Is there tension? Absolutely. We hold in tension our belief in God’s sovereignty, determining who we are, where we will live, who our parents will be, etc. and human responsibility. While this might seem uncomfortable, I believe that it is not only the best biblical option, but the only philosophical option outside outside of fatalism, and we don’t want to go there.
“From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’” Acts 17:26
I encourage you to read J.P. Moreland and William Lane Craig in their book Philosophical Foundations for a Biblical Worldview. They disagree with my thesis here, but they present a strong case for the other side.
Thoughts? Do you believe in free will?
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- What Do You Mean by “Free Will”?
- Why I Reject the Arminian Doctrine of Prevenient Grace
- Grudem: Predestination Based on Foreknowledge Still Does Not Give People Free Choice
- A Brief Primer on the Problem of Evil
- Why I am still a Calvinist: The Objector of Romans 9

geoff on 22 Apr 2008 at 1:49 am #
Hmm… free will.
“Will” can not be free… “will” is subject to choice. “Will” is in fact, bringing about ones choices/desires/etc.
What we mean by “free will” is actually, “freedom to choose” and this can never be free because one can not “choose” to be in right relationship with God.
I dont know how this fits in with what you said here really. I suggest going to http://www.theologyonline.com and debating some of the open theists over there. It helps hone the old philosophy muscle.
peace.
Geoff
Bmin.
Luke on 22 Apr 2008 at 3:29 am #
You’re making my head hurt CMP!
Ben on 22 Apr 2008 at 3:59 am #
Interesting post CMP! I think you just confused where I stand on this topic. Since I’m slightly bent towards Arminianism (slightly!) this post made be feel a little uncomfortable. I can see the logic you’re using is correct, we are limited by our own desires, strengths, weaknesses, abilities, etc to make libertarian free-will decisions… but I do have one or two problems, or rather questions.
1. What about people who become addicted to drugs and so crave them, but with help are able to overcome their desires and break their addiction? Aren’t they going again their own desires? Aren’t their desires changing?
2. What about when we change our habits, desires, life-style, beliefs, etc. to something that is completely opposite to ‘who we are’ at a particular time? Does the view you’ve put forward allow for change in someone’s ‘nature’?
3. If so, aren’t we able to change who we are? And if we are wouldn’t that open up the door to a semi-libitarian free-will view?
4. What is it in me that makes the free-will decisions? Doesn’t rational judgement come into it? And if so couldn’t that rational judgement cause me to do something that would normally be against my nature?
5. Can’t we control our desires to do something contrary to our nature? For example, although my nature has a desire to eat, can’t I control myself and fast?
These are the questions I’m struggling with at the moment, but even with these questions in my mind I still agree with the position you’ve put forward.
…Even if it is contrary to my nature to agree with you on this!
Douglas K. Adu-Boahen on 22 Apr 2008 at 5:31 am #
Interesting post CMP! The concept of whether a person has any “free will” is quite interesting, particularly the answers you get on either side of the Calvinism-Arminianism debate. Dr. Grudem does a marvellous job of covering this in his Systematic Theology…but [even as a committed five-point Calvinist] the issue may never be resolved this side of eternity
Chris on 22 Apr 2008 at 6:18 am #
The Calvinist problem here is that it oversimplifies the human condition. If you’re good, you’ll do good, if you’re bad you’ll do bad. But we all know that Christians and non-Christians alike have elements of good and bad. Thus the conundrum of whether we can choose against our nature is a misleading question, since nobody is black or white.
But even beyond that, God created everything, and it was very good. One must assume that God created Adam with a good nature. Yet Adam sinned. Did God give him a bad nature, or did he choose contrary to his nature?
JoanieD on 22 Apr 2008 at 6:18 am #
Michael, it’s interesting that you end your post with scripture which says: “From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’” Acts 17:26
God did the creating and determined when humans would live and where they would live. BUT…he did it so the “men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him” so it sounds like God is HOPING (with that word “perhaps”)that humans will perform a deed, doesn’t it? It SOUNDS like humans have something to do with finding God, although the scripture goes on to say that we already ARE in God, “For in him we live and move and have our being.” He is saying this about humans who have not yet “found” God. He is saying, then, that we are living in God even if we choose to call all humans sinners. Correct?
I don’t know what you call what I believe but I believe God made us all to be “good”, that we go astray, and that Jesus sets us right again with God when we realize that we need to turn to God for help.
Joanie D.
britphil on 22 Apr 2008 at 8:11 am #
Luke
I’d bet your head doesn’t hurt half as much as mine!!
If you all don’t mind I will freely and wilfully decline from commenting further until I have got my head around what Michael is positing.
You might be in for a long wait!
bzentis on 22 Apr 2008 at 8:20 am #
Michael,
This is a great topic and one which I enjoyed in the Theology Program’s Soteriology class. Everyone should go through TTP!!
I also recommend that everyone listen to Roger Olsen’s talk on Arminian Theology from the Converse with Scholars page…or get his book and read it. Although it comes down on the Arminian side, I think it is very fair to both sides and clears up many misconceptions that both groups use to bash the other.
The only objection that I have to your post is that if libertarian free will is truly uninfluenced by any forces even from within the individual, how can we still call it the will of the individual? It becomes nothing but mere chance. I think if you are going to talk about the will being limited by one’s nature, that’s fine…but at least allow for the individual to exercise their will. I think the definition of the word implies an intent or desire that has to come from somewhere. And to say that there are NO external considerations whatsoever is counter intuitive. I don’t know of anyone who agrees with that strict definition of libertarian free will.
Not to repeat myself, but I thought Olsen did a decent job of showing that Arminians also believe in the depraved will, and that our wills only become libertarian (enabled to stop resisting grace) after God exercises prevenient grace (which Olsen shows as irresistible), and that is not the same as semi-Pelagianism. I think Arminians would be surprised by how Olsen describes classical Arminianism’s view of the will and Calvinists would be as well.
As always: thanks for making us think!!!
Brian
Jugulum on 22 Apr 2008 at 8:37 am #
Ben,
I would offer this as the start of an answer to some of your questions: Everything that goes into our will–our desires, our tendencies, our values, etc.–is really, really complex. We have conflicting desires at many levels, and it is rarely if ever simple to analyze them.
So, you asked, “What about people who become addicted to drugs and so crave them, but with help are able to overcome their desires and break their addiction?”
Don’t you think that such people wanted to break their addiction?
Cadis on 22 Apr 2008 at 8:39 am #
It seems there is ability of some measure on our part. We are held responsible for our rejection of God. Romans… For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness…..
Who doesn’t hold the truth in unrighteousness? We are all unrighteous before belief in Christ and even now our righteousness is imputed and not really our own, yet a part of us can see the truth, because it is revealed. Men are responsible for understanding and seeing that revealed truth. They have the ability to see and understand, but as scripture says not REALLY see or understand.
My question is , If there is a freedom to come to God apart from the Holy Spirit, If from within me I can choose God, what need would there be for a Saviour or the indwelling of his Spirit? or the new birth? My old nature would have the possibility to self correct and be workable…
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Who is not in the flesh before our belief in Christ? The carnal mind is enmity against God, It is not subject to the law of God niether indeed can be.
So based on all that I’m going to have to say no. 2
and also say that yes I believe who we are, determines how free our choice really is..which in reality is not much choice but enslavement and bondage to who we are
I liked the analysis you gave of the neutralized will too… but I need to re-read the whole post again
Seth R. on 22 Apr 2008 at 8:47 am #
There’s a difference between saying that genetics, birth, circumstance, and environment are so compelling as to require outside intervention (Atonement), and taking that to the level of saying that there is no innate human capacity to choose God or not.
rick on 22 Apr 2008 at 8:56 am #
Bzentis #7:
To further your point about classical Arminianism being compared to contemporary Arminianism, Keith Drury and Chris Bounds at Indiana Wesleyan breakdown the similarities and differences of Wesley and Calvin, and Welsey and comtemporary Arminianism.
Drury and Bounds state: “However John Wesley does not just have differences with Calvinism, a hair’s breadth though it may be. He also has considerable differences from contemporary Wesleyans. John Wesley agrees with contemporary Wesleyans that God gives to every person the gift of prevenient grace and that prevenient grace makes possible the potential for every person to be saved. However, Wesley disagrees with contemporary Wesleyans on two intertwined and important matters as well: the basic nature of prevenient grace and when a person can be saved.”
http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/wesley.the.calvinist.htm
Keith Drury also has a post in which he provides an “interview” with Calvin, Wesley, and a contemporary Wesleyan-Arminian. Good points with humor included.
http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/wesley.calvin.mod.drury.htm
Meanwhile, John Drury, theology teacher at Princeton, blogs on Olson’s book:
http://drulogion.blogspot.com/search?q=arminianism
Cadis on 22 Apr 2008 at 9:17 am #
#7 “As always: thanks for making us think!!!
Brian”
I’m sitting here thinking on prevenient grace and a neutralized will and all the possibilties and complications
I’ve got work to do! I say, Stop it Michael !
Jugulum on 22 Apr 2008 at 9:30 am #
Seth,
I actually prefer not to put it in terms of “inability”. At least, if we leave it at that, it can be misleading–there are different senses of “unable”. I prefer to put it this way:
Given an infinite number of opportunities, we won’t choose God. Not without the work of the Spirit in our hearts. There’s nothing standing in our way to prevent us from choosing God–we simply won’t. It’s all internal to the desires and motivations of our heart.
SRH on 22 Apr 2008 at 9:55 am #
Re: #4 But even beyond that, God created everything, and it was very good. One must assume that God created Adam with a good nature. Yet Adam sinned. Did God give him a bad nature, or did he choose contrary to his nature?/#4
Muse with me for a moment…
Adam had the choice of God or not-God (actually, “self” over God).
Being fallible, without Divine intervention, (and God left him to his own will.) he would eventually choose wrongly…ie. not-God. Which would be the “thing” named sin.
Only God is God, there is no other, and self-sustaining Infallibility is an incommunicable attribute of God. Apart from Him, there is no life, only death. Fallibility is inherent in the creature, even the creature created, “very good.”
Adam also had a tempter who was leading him into being enamored with his “solitariness” and eventual autonomy, to the point where God’s first intervention was prefaced with, “It is not good for man to be alone.” So we are sliding already towards death, because God had said, “It’s very good.”
Adam was supposed to “keep” ie. guard, the garden - he didn’t.
Adam somehow goes from a state of “very good” to “it’s not good.” (Listening to the Tempter?)
Adam’s attitude is reflected in the woman’s answer to the serpent,
“We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
notice the addition? Where would she have gotten the notion of, “Don’t even touch it,” if not from Adam?
So then, sin (choosing “not-God” or “self” or “death”) is the inevitable result of a fallible, unacted-upon-by-Divinity, free choice creature.
Note: Jesus is called, “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Why?
God set it up this way to teach His Creation that they are utterly dependent upon Him
…and…
For God to create a creature who would love him and worship Him in the way God wanted, “freely” & “with utmost intensity,” the very opposite of this had to be possible as well…and to the same degree.
JohnT3 on 22 Apr 2008 at 10:11 am #
Great Post Michael,
One of the problems that we face with the issue of free will is that (for those of us in the US) we live in a country that was founded on the philosophythat we were endowed by our creator with the un alienable right of free will.
Even those founding fathers who were Christians bought into this, either through a compromise or full philosophical acceptence.
Lets look at Lucifer for a moment. He had the choice serve God or rebel and exalt myself to be higher than God. He choose to rebel.
Now Adam and Eve (who did not have a sin nature to deal with) when faced with the option of believing God and obeying his commands what did they do? They chose door number one Monty and rebelled against God.
But ever since that day we have had to deal with our falen nature. A nature ,that no matter how many choises you make, will always be wrong choices. And they are our choices as slaves to sin. By the way slaves we are (to sin or to righteousness) and that doesn’t remove us from our responsibility. Our nature is whereour desire to do what we want comes from.
We needed to be reborn with a new nature to help give us the ability to make the right choices.
This is where the rub is with some. How can it be a free choice if we need a nature to influence that choice?
Josh on 22 Apr 2008 at 10:28 am #
Just to stir the pot, does not the Edwardian defense for God not being the author of sin demand the neutrality of Adam’s will? When God was present in the garden the “influence” of Gods presence caused the nature of Adams will (I speak of his spiritual nature, in the same sense Edwards does, distinct from the natural or fleshly will) to be inclined to Him, yet when God “removes His presence” Adam’s will was “influenced” by the serpent and as a result his will was inclined against God.
Does this not depict a will that is “neutral” insofar as it is swayed in either direction on the basis of the influences affecting it? For how can a will that is naturally good do evil? And how can a will that is naturally evil do good?
Jugulum on 22 Apr 2008 at 10:28 am #
JohnT3,
To throw you for a loop: Will we be able to sin in heaven? If not, does that mean our wills will no longer be free?
SRH on 22 Apr 2008 at 10:43 am #
#18
God will, by His power enable us to sustain infallibility, to always make the right choice.
We also will have a totally renewed mind, no more sin nature, a glorified body, (not subject to death,) and the total removal of sin and the Tempter.
We will be free to choose what we want, and we will eternally always want God.
Cadis on 22 Apr 2008 at 10:51 am #
Jugulum,
“To throw you for a loop: Will we be able to sin in heaven? If not, does that mean our wills will no longer be free?”
Your bad, your worse than Michael
but in answer, we will be free to serve God
our wills are never entirely free because we are God’s creation, answerable to him. If he is an authority above us to whom we have to answer, did we ever really have a free will? even in the garden? seeing Adam did have to face God for his supposed freedom of choice to disobey. Which he did freely choose. ……..top that!
That is a good question , what will keep us from returning to sin in heaven?
SRH gave a good answer but that is really not freedom of choice seeing that we always will choose God and good, It will be what we want .
JohnT3 on 22 Apr 2008 at 11:00 am #
Jugulum
Your question is of the same ilk as the question ‘can God make a stone he can not lift?’
No we will not sin in heaven, we will, to quote Cadis, freely serve God. We will be like Christ, able to always do what pleases the Father.
britphil on 22 Apr 2008 at 11:09 am #
Folks
My head is hurting more than ever now…but I shall post a contribution soon!
SRH on 22 Apr 2008 at 11:24 am #
Not even God has “Free Will” in the sense of libertarian free will, where any thinkable choice is possible.
God cannot deny Himself
God cannot lie
God cannot create God
“free will” never can mean “totally unlimited”
Perhaps it would better to say we were created with self will.
watch the following videos on “Will, Sovereign or Slave?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVRrSO5wOj4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5vYECqyT3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTjOrOz6G4w
C Michael Patton on 22 Apr 2008 at 11:25 am #
Here is a good article from the other side. (The dark side
)
Jugulum on 22 Apr 2008 at 11:27 am #
SRH,
I agree. And I think this points out the MAJOR problem with many people’s definition of “free will”.
Cadis,
Actually, I’m pretty sure I’ve heard Michael asking that question, too.
“but that is really not freedom of choice”
You can say that, and conclude that “freedom of choice” doesn’t have the importance that people think it does. (Because we won’t have it in heaven.)
Or you can say that it is real freedom of choice–in the Biblical worldview. That would imply: When Arminians & Open Theists argue theology based on “freedom of choice”, they’re using an unbiblical definition.
JohnT3,
Eh? I really don’t follow. Are you saying my question was logically incoherent? How so?
We might actually be on the same page. My point was to show a problem in how people are defining “freedom”.
Ruben on 22 Apr 2008 at 11:49 am #
Hi Michael, thank your for your posts on election and free will, they are very well thought out and explained in a very charitable way that leads to good discussions. This last post is very sound and the logic is clear, it’s hard to refute your points. For me though, I wonder how this fits in to Jesus’ teaching and His interaction with people when He walked among us. Like the sermon on the mount, it seems that He was exorting people to live by a higher standard (not that we could ever attain that, but it seems that He wanted us to shoot for the impossible), it seems that His teaching was very concerned with morality. If we could not choose to do these things, then why did He emphasize our behavior and attitudes instead of our faith or creeds? If we are incapable of choosing good, then why is His ministry so concerned with how we behave? I always felt that evangelicals love John’s gospel and neglect the other 3, I think because the synoptic gospels don’t fit into their theology.
C Michael Patton on 22 Apr 2008 at 12:02 pm #
Ruben, this is a great question. It is not as though a denial of libertarian freedom discounts our responsibility or the importance of outside influence. Christ’s sermon on the mount was and is an influencing factor. The Holy Spirit will use such to influence us.
This is why the teaching of the Gospel is so important. It is a major factor in creating the you behind your decisions. If who we are determines what we choose, then the message of truth is that much more important.
Compatibalism is the belief to which I hold. It holds a strong tension between divine determinalism, self-determinalism, and human response-ability. While we cannot harmonize these to our intellectual satisfaction, they are not contradictory.
In the end, this makes the discharge of the Gospel that much more important.
SRH on 22 Apr 2008 at 12:06 pm #
#26 If we could not choose to do these things, then why did He emphasize our behavior and attitudes instead of our faith or creeds?/#26
(Rom 3:26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ultimate self-determination is unnecessary for moral accountability. His commands show up our inability to keep them without His power. The emphasis is on our utter dependence upon him, not on our innate ability to keep His commands.
Cadis on 22 Apr 2008 at 12:40 pm #
#26 “If we are incapable of choosing good, then why is His ministry so concerned with how we behave? ”
The Rich young ruler claimed to keep the law from his youth on up, Christ did not call him a liar, but he told him to go sell everything he owned and follow him to be perfect. Man does have the ability to be moral. True? maybe not consistantly but the unsaved man can behave morally. Why did this man not follow Jesus? He obviously believed Jesus held the answer to eternal life because he asked him what he needed to do. Why didn’t he do it?
The pharisees another good example, they kept the law to the tithing of herbs but still did not choose to follow Christ. Why?
I believe alot of the message of Jesus Christ about morality was to show how deeply sin ingrains us, It goes beyond a surface front of morality, and illusion of law keeping…you have heard it said of old thou shall not kill but I tell you, who ever is angry with his brother without a cause is in danger of judgement . ,Adultery etc, (paraphrased)
Mitch on 22 Apr 2008 at 12:52 pm #
While I was witnessing to an unbeliever with my Calvinistic friend, I was asked by the unbeliever what he needed to do the become a Christian. I told him we are not sure if he needs to have faith in Christ or if faith in Christ is something given by God. I told him that this is very much being debated and has been debated for centuries. I suggested he wait for God to give him faith.
I realize no Calvinist in his/her right mind would agree with my approach or understanding of Calvinism. No comments are necessary. Just wanted to remind us that no amount of debate will even address the issues that separate Calvinists from non-Calvinists.
JohnT3 on 22 Apr 2008 at 1:14 pm #
While I agree with the idea that we need to know what freedom means.
I have to disagree with you SRH that God (in a conservative or a libertine sense) is not totally free.
God not denying himself or that God can not lie has nothing to do with his freedom.
Jugulum on 22 Apr 2008 at 1:20 pm #
Mitch,
But it isn’t debated whether or not we need to have faith in Christ.
SRH on 22 Apr 2008 at 1:35 pm #
JohnT3…but it has everything to do with how freedom is defined by those who would contend that we have “free will.” in other words, there are limits. A train off it’s tracks is NOT free.
Cadis on 22 Apr 2008 at 2:50 pm #
On the subject of Prevenient Grace
It is a working of the Holy Spirit. It would, If I understand it, have to be an internal working. The Holy Spirit would have to circumcise the heart for this type of liberation from the old nature. With the heart now circumcised we flop back and forth between the two, always under ,IMO, prevenient grace and never given permenant grace and under God’s grace. So previenient grace is really all the grace we get. It becomes a very temporary grace, which would make sense to why one would think they could loose there salvation. Am I understanding this right, and would the Arminian also agree this is true? Prevenient grace is not just a prelude to salvation but encompasses the whole Arminian definition of grace?
JoanieD on 22 Apr 2008 at 3:00 pm #
SRH said, “A train off its tracks is NOT free.”
I like that!
Joanie D.
JohnO on 22 Apr 2008 at 4:09 pm #
I’ve not really been able to do justice to this particular discussion - I simply don’t have the time at the moment (and it’s frustrating not being able to comment reliably). But there is one thing I’ve noticed on the most recent discussions and particularly this one - the debate seems to be polarised between Calvinists and Arminians (or at least it’s presented that way).
Here I confess my ignorance, but presumably there are other theological positions to be held (and I don’t just mean within the Calvinist-Arminian spectrum)? Is presenting theological issues as a choice between the two doing the whole field of theology justice? Or is this simply a reflection of the particular concerns of the contributors and readership of this blog?
(I don’t believe it - this comment didn’t get caught in the spam trap - is this a by-product of the blog upgrade?)
Ruben on 22 Apr 2008 at 4:18 pm #
Thanks Michael, that is a good explanation. If I understand what you are saying, I guess it means that we are still accountable in some sense. I just don’t think the idea of Jesus mentioning these things to us to show us our sin does justice to Him. I do believe that He actually demanded the rich young ruler to give up all of his possessions, He wasn’t asking it of him to show that it was beyond his ability. If I understand your position, I think we are still accountable and depravity and Divine sovereignity are forces that work “in the background”.
SRH on 22 Apr 2008 at 4:41 pm #
Reuben, yes of course Jesus actually demanded the rich young ruler to give up all of his possessions. And the young man was most certainly accountable for that demand. But Jesus also knew the rich young ruler wasn’t about to do what He asked of him.
So then what purpose? We’re back to Romans 3:26. The young man was morally incapable of complying, and so he didn’t. So then “God is just and is the justifier…”
And:
(Rom 3:3-6) What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? {4} Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” {5} But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) {6} Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?
And once again…
Ultimate self-determination is unnecessary for moral accountability. His commands show up our inability to keep them without His power. The emphasis is on our utter dependence upon him, not on our innate ability to keep His commands.
Geoff on 22 Apr 2008 at 5:24 pm #
People still dont seem to get it.
WILL IS NOT FREE.
Libertarian free will means “the ability to choose freely”.
That is.. freedom.
Paul wrote to the Galatians, “For freedom Christ has set us free”. The freedom to choose God over self.
Will we be able to be free when creation is renewed (heaven), yes. We will have the ability, just as Adam did, to choose God or not. However, we will not choose self, freely
The sooner we stop obfuscating the issue by talking about “will” the better. If you dont have the freedom to choose “something” in the first place, you can not “will something”.
Humanity does not have the ability to choose God. God made sure of that by placing a cherubim and flaming sword blocking access to himself (Eden - the place where we have a close intimate relationship with God - heaven (a precursor?)). Humanity is no longer in the likeness of God, but instead the likeness of a fallen Adam (gen 5:1-3). Likeness is “tselem” - representative. No longer do we represent God, we can not choose to follow Him, because we have no access to Him.
Through Christ we DO have freedom, freedom to choose self or God. Unfortunately we still choose self alot more than God, but still, we do have that freedom.
peace.
Geoff
dac on 22 Apr 2008 at 5:52 pm #
great post, and comments too, but I am with Luke (comment #2) here
Ruben on 22 Apr 2008 at 6:13 pm #
SRH, thanks, I do have to ask, if the rich young ruler had given up everything, would that have given him eternal life? The passage following the young man’s meeting with Jesus seems to imply that the disciples had given up possessions, familes etc. so it seems to be a command that they had kept. I guess I’m not used to seeing these things philosophically, I must be missing your point completely!
Cadis on 22 Apr 2008 at 7:32 pm #
Rueben,
I think it was the come follow me that was even more problematic than the riches, although Christ knowing his weakness knew his choice was between earthly riches and eternal life, If the Rich young ruler really understood and could make good, who in thier right mind would risk eternity for temporary gain?
or better yet , knowing, which he did, that Christ held the key to eternity why would he still choose money?
He could not overcome it…That was his weakness what is yours and what is mine?
that keeps us from choosing to follow Christ, everyone has one
Jason J on 22 Apr 2008 at 7:33 pm #
Well done.
Great call on the Moreland/Craig book as well! That is a fantastic book for the other side of the debate and I’d encouage everyone to read it no matter where you stand on the issue.
I, however, agree with you on this subject Michael.
Lisa R on 22 Apr 2008 at 7:43 pm #
Here is how I see it and this may be a bit random. Every choice we make, it is us truly making the choice. In other words, presented with whatever options are available to us prompting us to make the choice, we will choose according to whatever the motivating influence or desire is.
While God did create us in His image, we are subject to our fallen nature, as I believe some have already stated here. And Romans 8:7 and I Corinth 2:14 indicate in that nature, we cannot, will not have the motivation to choose God. When we come to realize that we need to trust Christ as our Savior, we are truly making that choice but it is a choice that is brought about through the intervention of something outside of us, in other words the Holy Spirit. Therefore it is our choice but only within a freedom that was granted not one we can claim. So I would have to agree with Geoff in the above comment.
But I will take his argument one step further to the freedom that we have in Christ. Paul indicates in Romans 6-7 that while we are free from sin and slaves to righteousness, there is still a sin principle at work that will seek to influence our choices. And in chapt 8, our ability to freely choose according to our new nature, still requires the Spirit within us to fulfill the requirements of the law, that is the moral correctness. So even in our regenerate state, there is still the need for an influence outside of us, which is the Spirit living in us. But can we say that is still true freedom? It is freedom to the extent that we are not bound to making choices devoid of the Spirit’s influence but choices that nonetheless, are still influenced. Free from sin=slave to righteousness.
The tension is all of this is that we are held accountable for the choices that we do make.
Mitch on 22 Apr 2008 at 8:22 pm #
Jug:
Words are very important. Reread EXACTLY what I said. In case you are in a hurry again, here are the critical words that were selected with great care:
I said the unbeliever asked me “what HE needed to DO…”
The unbeliever didn’t ask me what he needed to HAVE.
The reason I answered the way I did was because I was quoting my Calvinistic friend, who only days ago said those very words to me in a theological discussion.
RC Sproul believes regeneration precedes faith. So does my friend. I wanted to show how “theoretical” Calvinism can be when it comes to an actual discussion with an unbeliever. RC Sproul would not witness to an unbeliever by saying the words “regeneration precedes faith,” but in theory, he believes just that.
By the way, I am not trying to enter into a discussion on Calvinism. I just wanted to give some out here food for thought.
Cadis on 22 Apr 2008 at 8:26 pm #
LisaR in post #44
“When we come to realize that we need to trust Christ as our Savior, we are truly making that choice but it is a choice that is brought about through the intervention of something outside of us,”
That is key, outside us but to do any good or make a difference, a lasting difference, that outside force needs to be within us.
To create a desire ,a foriegn desire, that we do not have in us. (I’m elaborating on your thoughts, not opposing them)… I believe the word for this is “quickened”
SRH on 22 Apr 2008 at 8:34 pm #
Mitch, Why would you (or anyone) discuss the ordo salutis with an unbeliever?
Preach the gospel to them! Command them to believe on the Lord Jesus. If God regenerates them, they will believe. If he asks what he must do, give them:
(Acts 16:31-32) They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.” {32} Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.
You can’t convict them by your powers of persuasion.
The Holy Spirit does that.
Preach the Gospel. That’s what RC Sproul would do.
Mitch on 22 Apr 2008 at 10:15 pm #
SRH:
I think you just about got my point.
The whole exercise was to demonstrate the theoretical nature of Calvinism AS A THEOLOGICAL POSITION and how it wouldn’t work if actually allowed to move to the actual world.
Yes, RC Sproul would just fire away with the gospel, and would probably tell the unbeliever to put his faith in Christ. Go figure.
bethyada on 23 Apr 2008 at 3:05 am #
I think it was possible that Adam could’ve chosen not to sin and the world would have been a very different place.
And it is fourth, not forth.
Jugulum on 23 Apr 2008 at 7:09 am #
Mitch,
I reread your first comment, and your follow-up. My answer doesn’t change. As far as I can tell, the problem is not in an inadequacy of Calvinism to work when moving in the real world. The problem is either in your understanding of Calvinism, or in poor articulation of Calvinism from your friend.
When asked the question, “What must someone do to be saved,” the Calvinistic answer is simply, “Repent and believe in Christ.” Period. That doesn’t change, just because we would also say that you’re not going to be willing to do that unless the Spirit regenerates you.
I don’t see why you would call Calvinism “theoretical” just because it probably won’t come up when we present the Gospel to an unbeliever. We also don’t typically bring up sanctification. Or “walking by the Spirit”. Or church government. Or cessationism vs. continuationism. Or spiritual gifts in general.
I suppose “does regeneration precede faith?” is “theoretical” in this sense: It describes something God does, behind the scenes. But so does “Christ intercedes for us with the Father,” and “God works all things to the good of those who believe”. I wouldn’t want to call them theoretical.
Mitch on 23 Apr 2008 at 8:45 am #
Jug, et al
I hope I haven’t offended anyone here. I meant no disrespect. This exchange is why I said I didn’t want to get into a discussion on Calvinism. Discussions like these never yield fruit. All that happens is a theological tennis match is played.
Jugulum on 23 Apr 2008 at 9:00 am #
Mitch,
I didn’t take it as disrespect, and wasn’t offended. And I suppose this is somewhat off-topic. If you want to drop it, that’s fine with me.
But I don’t think discussions like these never yield fruit. Another thing that happens is iron sharpening iron, increased understanding, and (sometime) changed minds on one side or the other.
I want to be really careful about saying there’s no point in getting into discussions like this. That’s the same kind of thing that people say about religion in general–some people don’t even want to talk about the gospel, for the same reason.
Of course, there’s a problem: You’re not entirely wrong. Discussions like this often are completely unfruitful, because of the way that people carry them out.
What Do I Mean by Free? « Geoff Ashley on 23 Apr 2008 at 9:34 am #
[...] http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/04/22/what-do-you-mean-by-free-will/#more-702 [...]
Matt Hardwick on 23 Apr 2008 at 9:57 am #
#51+52: I think you all are discussing with intelligent and civil methods. While I have been reading this discussion, I haven’t detected a bit of heated conversation. In fact, it has helped me understand the information greatly, even though it is off topic. I would say that the attitude of the discussion is much more important than the outcome in terms of persuasion with those involved.
This article was really helpful as well as the discussion in the comments.
Now my opinion:
It seems to me that whether or not the regeneration occurs before the choice to follow Christ or afterward, there is still the choice, so we should be as bold as always in trying to influence people into choosing God over their sinful nature. I understand that this, (choosing God over our sinful nature), is the thing being disputed here, but I either have an illusion of choosing God over sin, or I have the true ability. The outcome is the same to me, as well as the process. As far as I can tell, according to my senses (which are not enough to detect God’s workings) it happens the same way without regard to how the process actually occurs.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, however the process works, the essential method is the same: Hear the word, choose the word, follow the word.
SRH on 23 Apr 2008 at 9:59 am #
Discussions like this are fruitful, as i am an apostate arminian. (Calvinist) LOL
And bethyada, nope. Not possible.
The Fall was planned and planned for. There was no Plan B.
Mitch, i agree with Jug. My point was the Gospel is to be preached whether you’re Calvinist or Arminian. even semi-Pelagians can get it right sometimes.
Not saying you claim this, but anyone who thinks that Calvinists make poor evangelists or missionaries are just ignorant of History.
What’s your definition of “Free Will”? « The Crimson Window on 23 Apr 2008 at 11:18 am #
[...] is an excerpt. Click here to read the whole [...]
C Michael Patton on Free Will | Kubecki.com on 23 Apr 2008 at 3:19 pm #
[...] Michael Patton discusses What Do You Mean by “Free Will”?: The concept of “free will” suffers no less with regard to this misunderstanding. Does a person [...]
Minnowspeaks on 23 Apr 2008 at 4:56 pm #
I have to say CMP–These last three posts (predestination, Sovereignty of God, and free will) are making my head ache and my heart hurt. I am grieved our religion has made God so unreachable and so unknowable. My own reading of scripture does not support these attitudes. For me scripture paints a picture of a loving Father who desires an intimate relationship with those He has created. He is not about making this journey more difficult for any of us.
Personally, I have an insurmountable problem with the concepts of predestination (if by predestination we mean God “elects” (chooses, calls) some to be saved and the rest to go to hell); and total depravity (if by total depravity we mean that man is unable to turn to God without God causing man to do so). Just when did we get our sin nature if we did not have such a nature from the beginning? In other words, when did the potential to sin turn into a nature because if we didn’t at least have the potential from the beginning we never would have sinned? And, why must it be that we have a “sin nature” as opposed to the on going potential for sin (choosing self) and the on going potential for righteousness (choosing God)? Is not the essence of “free will” the idea that God granted us this potential? Absolutely God is able to do whatever He desires with regard to His creation, right down to picking the color of socks we wear. He is Sovereign. However, I believe scripture paints a picture of a self-limiting God. His heart is turned toward His creation. He desires to have relationship with us. But, at the same time He wants a responsive lover rather than a puppet creation.
Finally, I am brought to the purpose of evangelism and mission. We are to be Christ’s ambassadors, His witnesses unto all the earth (and not just with our words). Why? To what end if the whole predestination, total depravity, and meticulous sovereignty are true? I believe that it is only as His responsive lovers that the gospel makes sense. We love because He first loved us and He loved us while we were yet sinners. In turn we demonstrate His love by how we treat the “least”. Historically life-style evangelism may have been more prevelant then it is today. However, I think the emerging church movement is a reaction to the fact that modern day Christians (especial in America) are very hard to distinguish from a fallen world.
Geoff on 23 Apr 2008 at 8:51 pm #
MinnowSpeaks said:
“Just when did we get our sin nature if we did not have such a nature from the beginning? In other words, when did the potential to sin turn into a nature because if we didn’t at least have the potential from the beginning we never would have sinned? And, why must it be that we have a “sin nature” as opposed to the on going potential for sin (choosing self) and the on going potential for righteousness (choosing God)?”
I’d like to answer that with some scriptures.
Firstly, we got this nature in Gen 3. When Adam and Eve’s “eyes were opened”, is symbolic/theological reference to something spiritual. In fact, we know from john 3 that it is a change of nature requiring “rebirth”.
More importantly, Humanity was created to be God’s image, that is, God’s viceroy/representative (thats what the Hebrew word for image “tselem” means). This implies a close intimate relationship, and this relationship is theologically symbolised by Eden. Eden is the place where humans and God exist in the rightful state, harmony with one another and creation.
As a consequence of their action, Adam and Eve are removed from this place, and for the next 8 chapters humanity is symbolically getting further and further away from Eden (they are going east (I think.. or west, I can never remember), until they get to Babel. The further away they get, the worse they behave. From Murder with a reason (Cain and Abel) to murder for no reason (Lamech) to complete self reliance (making their own building blocks and building a “stairway to heaven”).
Going back a bit, I mentioned Adam and Eve’s nature is changed. Now, if we look at Gen 5, we find Moses has made a significant change here from Gen 1/2.
Gen 5: 1 This is the written account of Adam’s line.
When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them “man. ”
3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
Notice when God created “man” it was in his own likeness (tselem), but after the fall Seth is not, Seth is in Adam’s likeness (tselem). So, Seth does not inherit the nature Adam started with, but the one Adam ended up with as a consequence of his actions.
THAT… is how we end up with a “fallen” nature. It is a nature born “outside of Eden”. Is this understandable?
I think this answers all the questions in the segment I pulled out. Feel free to contact me if you wish to know more.
bethyada on 24 Apr 2008 at 5:22 am #
The Fall was planned and planned for. There was no Plan B.
Planned for I can agree with.
Planned? God intended for Adam to fall? Do Calvinists of every shade have to believe this?
britphil on 24 Apr 2008 at 6:19 am #
Hello there Minnow. As you wake up can I just give you a transatlantic embrace !!
Why? Because despite of all the headaches and heartaches you have been suffering while reading this thread you plucked up the courage to state:
1. “He is Sovereign. However, I believe scripture paints a picture of a self-limiting God. His heart is turned toward His creation. He desires to have relationship with us. But, at the same time He wants a responsive lover rather than a puppet creation.”
I know this is not what all on the more Calvinist side of the fence believe (I am taking note of Susan’s gentle but firm rebuke yesterday) but the mere thought of reducing the Lord God Almighty to the role of deterministic automaton with us as merely controlled puppets on a string is enough almost to drive me into the arms of Richard Dawkins and his gang…and it would take quite a lot to make that happen!
2 “Finally, I am brought to the purpose of evangelism and mission.”
..and the people said (or at least this person said - very loudly) …AMEN!
3. ” We are to be Christ’s ambassadors, His witnesses unto all the earth (and not just with our words). Why? To what end if the whole predestination, total depravity, and meticulous sovereignty are true? I believe that it is only as His responsive lovers that the gospel makes sense. ”
I love the phrase “responsive lovers” . Surely this makes sense in terms of our churchgoing even. How many people have been turned off church for life because they were forced to go against their will as teenagers. If we respond to him simply becasue we have no choice in the matter, how genuine, warm, loving and sacrifical will our faith and our response to God really be?
4. “We love because He first loved us and He loved us while we were yet sinners. In turn we demonstrate His love by how we treat the “least”.
I will not even try to attempt to put this any better, except to say that to me it mirrors what Jesus was trying to get across in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats.
5. “Historically life-style evangelism may have been more prevelant then it is today. However, I think the emerging church movement is a reaction to the fact that modern day Christians (especial in America) are very hard to distinguish from a fallen world.”
Minnow….this is why I do get so steamed up about criticisms of the emerging church , and especially some of their leaders when they are exposed to criticism and scrutiny which I feel is both unfair and unjust. Please note that I did not say that they should not be criticsed, just that the level and the tone of some of it is unwarranted. I have got into a lot of hot water recently on another far more pro-Calvinist site than this one, who have written a critique about Rob Bell’s book Velvet Elvis which quickly turns into a public character assassination and denigration of his entire ministry. The attitude adopted by the author would sit very comfrotably within the standards of a fallen world, yet thet insist that they are “blogging to the glory of Jesus”. Who are they trying to kid?
Maybe the reason that the emerging church movement are so frowned upon by some in the existing church movement is because maybe sometimes they are a lot more easier to distinguish from a fallen world and the established church.
I sometimes think that those shouting “Heresy!” the loudest are amongst some who I would consider to be virtually on the border of heresy themselves.
Minnowspeaks on 24 Apr 2008 at 6:55 am #
Thank you Britphil! I can now face the firing squad, having had my last smoke. How’s it feel to be to the right of someone? Especially one who tends to be as (or more) out spoken but much less gentle (or humerous) about it!
PS Perhaps the thread is old enough that we are the only ones coming back to it- Humm…
Cadis on 24 Apr 2008 at 7:24 am #
Geoff,
I agree with your post #59
I’m a little leery or skeptical of this particular point you made
“Firstly, we got this nature in Gen 3. When Adam and Eve’s “eyes were opened”, is symbolic/theological reference to something spiritual. In fact, we know from john 3 that it is a change of nature requiring “rebirth”.”
It imply’s that something was added to thier natures rather than removed, which may be true but I’m not convinced of it.
But back to free will which blends into the discussion of man’s ability. When Cain and Abel brought sacrifice to the Lord. Abel brought what was right, What inabled him to do this? It was a form of faith, Abel believed God and brought the required sacrifice, conversly Cain refused to, even after God in essence gave him a second chance to bring what was required.
I understand that both Cain and Abel were still in direct contact with God and under direct guidance by God. But Abel now with a fallen nature by faith brings what was right…How does he do this if total inability is what some define it to be? Was it by God’s ifluence over Abel?
P.S. Good morning Minnowspeaks and Brit-Phil, Brit-Phil are you introducing the word Heretic into this conversation?
You know once that word is spoken it takes on a life of it’s own!
Cadis on 24 Apr 2008 at 9:36 am #
Minnowspeaks,
in # 58
“I am grieved our religion has made God so unreachable and so unknowable.”
I’m not sure that because this conversation is confusing or hard to mentally get a grip on, makes God unknowable. To me that is the point of some of these discussions is to come to a better understanding of who God is through his own words and his word, now when we go beyond those things that have been revealed to us, I believe we are darkening his counsel with words without knowledge. I like to see these discussions handled with honesty and reverence for God’s word (The whole not just the parts we like best))and understanding it, rather than being bullied into believing something because it has been an established concept by one or another’s system. Please don’t get me wrong I have great respect for those with better minds ,men of God, who were before me, but let me find it and claim it from scripture and then it will be my own, and then I can amen those who were before me. I’m not looking to piece meal systems or take a bit from here and a bit from there or to rebel against thoughts that are not new thoughts, but I am determined to know whether they are correctly aligned with God’s word, and these discussions help me to do so , whether by agreeance or elimination. So as long as the discussion is flowing and is centered around Biblical principals and is not hostile…I’m for it.
To me it is part of the process of getting to know God better than I did before
Cadis on 24 Apr 2008 at 10:06 am #
As long as I’m on a roll. Not only that but if we are forbidden to ask biblically based question,(forbidden by peer pressure because those questions go outside of a certain systems allowance) not silly questions, but in comparing scripture with scripture and sometimes those question (look out Brit-Phil!) border on what is deemed heretical by many, then we are doomed to be nothing more than mocking birds of others and are looking for acceptance and not truth. And those who do not allow questions of thier belief of what scripture says are standing then on shaky ground which will not hold up to examination. If you cannot give an answer for it through the entire scope of the scriptures (don’t throw a verse or two at it and call it a day)and dismiss the question on the sole ground that it does not fit your system, then you have no answer for yourself, let alone the questioner.
oops minnow speaks, those thoughts are not directed at you just triggered by your comment, I’m just making general comments to whoever or noone
A Lover of Truth on 24 Apr 2008 at 11:25 am #
27 “God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him”
Was not this the same intent and ability which He gave Adam in the first place? Man’s nature has NEVER changed, though maybe environment and circumstances are slightly altered.
The very fact of “would seek Him and perhaps reach out” DEMANDS a “choice” on the part of the “seeker”.
The whole point of “walking” after the spirit instead of the flesh implies that I have two options: flesh (outward man); spirit (inward man).
I can choose to build treasures on earth OR treasures in heaven.
I can serve God OR I can serve mammon
I can repent OR I can perish
Further,
How can one say a child has a “fallen nature” when God said they do not know good or evil?
Deut. 1:39 “…your children, that this day have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.”
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Please, read Ezekiel 18, it completely repudiates this (hereditary depravity) concept (read this BEFORE YOU CONSIDER Romans 9-11).
One must allow a clear, unambiguous passage to modify an unclear (from a non-Jewish standpoint) ambiguous passage.
Here is an apostolic witness to the foregoing:
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Before one considers the content of the epistles of Paul, one must consider what preceded it.
Further, one must examine the passage, immediate context, remote context, then reason validly about this evidence (total context) before he comes anywhere near what the Bible says on a matter.
Reading Romans 9-11 and allowing it to shape one’s whole theological spectrum fallacious purely fallacious reasoning (because Ezekiel 18 is a clear, unambiguous passage, and must be considered in remote context to one’s understanding of Rom. 9-11).
The “fallen nature” concept is based upon the presuppositions and inability to discern poetic/figurative language from the literal language of the Bible.
Satan in person tried to use the poetic language of the Psalms (as the Augustinian/Calvinists have to pervert man’s nature, Ps. 51:5) against Jesus who clearly refuted him with a clear statement from Deuteronomy [Matt. 4:5-7]). Let us all allow the Scriptures to explain themselves, only drawing such conclusions as are warranted by the total context (honor the Law of Rationality, which Jesus did in the preceding).
Minnowspeaks on 24 Apr 2008 at 11:57 am #
#64 & #65 Cadis–
Amen!!
I think I am concerned that some of our doctrines make God/Jesus more difficult to know then does the scripture. That is the point I was trying to make.
Thank you for your wisdom.
JOHN on 24 Apr 2008 at 8:03 pm #
RE: #58 Minnowspeak
Minnowspeak:
Having just recently become aquainted with these doctrines: Calvinism, Arminism, Election, Free Will ect. mostly from what I’ve read on Parchment and Pen I agree with you.
Until recently I thought that you had a choice to love and accept God/Jesus and what he was offering through the death of Jesus on the Cross or not. If you accepted you go to heaven if not hell. It wasn’t until I started reading all these articles that I find out how complicated this all is. To repeat what others have said in this blog repeatedly “This makes my head hurt”.
Your interpretation seems more reasonable and in keeping with what I was taught in church growing up. Although I’d heard of John Calvin I had no idea what he believed or what he was about. This certainly wasn’t a topic in sunday school.
I’m not rejecting these doctrines completely as I have not studied them in depth but I certainly share your concerns as I am also deeply troubled by the implications of having “Free Will” sort of. Anyway you are not the only one out there.
geoff on 25 Apr 2008 at 1:32 am #
Bethayda #60
>>The Fall was planned and planned for. There was no Plan B.
>Planned for I can agree with.
>Planned? God intended for Adam to fall? Do Calvinists of every shade have to believe this?
I dont consider myself Calvinist, but I guess if you scratch me you might find one underneath.
That God “planned for the fall to happen” is a fallacy. Its a leap of logic and I believe false. All we can know is that God foreknew that the fall would take place, and planned ahead for it. If God planned that Adam would sin, God could have then ‘forced’ Adam to sin, and then God could not justly punish Adam. Notice I said “could have”. The suggest that he would have is opposed to God’s very nature. Why create an autonomous being then remove his autonomy? It makes no sense, is illogical, and to my mind ridiculous.
God certainly foreknew and foreknows all things (including the free choices of human agents) and plans appropriately. God could not be God, nor bring about his resolution for history if it were not the case.
Reflection on Concupscientia « God-Dependent, Christ-Centered, Spirit-Led on 25 Apr 2008 at 7:31 am #
[...] the Problem of Evil. I’ll leave that for another day! If you can’t read, read this article on “free will” while waiting for my official [...]
SRH on 25 Apr 2008 at 8:44 am #
who said Adam was autonomous? He wanted to be, and that’s what got him into trouble. That’s what sin is, to choose “not-God,” (or self instead of God) It was predetermined that Adam would choose himself over God. Any fallible creature created with self-will will inevitably choose self over God. Only God has the attribute of self-sustaining infallibility.
God planned the Fall just as much as He planned for it. Foreknowledge is more than foreseeing facts and events. He knew Adam before He created him and that he would fall before creating him, yet He created him anyway. Why all this? To teach Creation their utter dependence upon their Creator.
(1 Pet 1:19-20) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: {20} Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
…the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
and remember, Ultimate self-determination is unnecessary for moral accountability.
geoff on 25 Apr 2008 at 5:38 pm #
SRH,
Autonomy is part of what is implied in “tselem” (image/likeness). It means to represent with authority, like a vice regent, or viceroy or governor. It is to “govern in place of..”. Humanity is meant to “do as God would”, and implicit in that is freedom to choose, a close relationship with the one whom we represent, etc.
God did not “plan” the fall. As I said, had God planned the fall, God would be responsible for the fall, as the originator. Adam could not be judged nor in fact be guilty for something that was planned by someone else. In order to plan for and bring off Adam’s deed, Adam would have to at the least have been unfairly manipulated, and more likely forced to act. He would have no choice, and he would not be responsible for his actions, as they would not be His, but God’s.
I pet 1:19-20 does not change this. God FOREKNEW, and therefore planned for the consequence. It doesnt not suggest that God caused it. The problem with your suggestion is that it means God caused. And FOREKNOWING (or knowing in general in fact) does not possess the property of causation.
SRH on 25 Apr 2008 at 7:53 pm #
foreordained!
not just foreknown.
Autonomy is not the same as “vice regent” it means “to act independently.”
do you really think that Adam caught God off guard?
if God foreknew, then it couldn’t happen any other way.
And God didn’t have to coerce Adam into “sin” or making the wrong choice.
Just simply leave him alone and he’ll make the wrong choice.
Is God the Author of Sin?
Jonathan Edwards answers,
“If by ‘the author of sin,’ be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing…it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin.”
But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God’s permission, but not by his “positive agency.”
God is, Edwards says,
“the permitter…of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted…will most certainly and infallibly follow.”
He uses the analogy of the way the sun brings about light and warmth by its essential nature, but brings about dark and cold by dropping below the horizon.
“If the sun were the proper cause of cold and darkness, it would be the fountain of these things, as it is the fountain of light and heat: and then something might be argued from the nature of cold and darkness, to a likeness of nature in the sun.”
In other words,
“sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence.”
Thus in one sense God wills that what he hates come to pass, as well as what he loves. Edwards says,
“God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet…it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences…God doesn’t will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn’t hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.”
Why Does God Ordain that there Be Evil?
It is evident from what has been said that it is not because he delights in evil as evil. Rather he “wills that evil come to pass…that good may come of it.” What good? And how does the existence of evil serve this good end? Here is Edwards’ stunning answer:
“It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all…
Thus it is necessary, that God’s awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all.
If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in his providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever he bestowed, his goodness would not be so much prized and admired…
So evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which he made the world; because the creature’s happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of his love. And if the knowledge of him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect.”
JoanieD on 25 Apr 2008 at 8:44 pm #
Excellent response, Minnowspeaks, in #58. I think you can speak for many of us there. About God you say, “His heart is turned toward His creation. He desires to have relationship with us. But, at the same time He wants a responsive lover rather than a puppet creation.” Yes.
And you say, “We love because He first loved us and He loved us while we were yet sinners. In turn we demonstrate His love by how we treat the ‘least’.” Yes again.
I think there will be many surprises when Jesus returns. We may find that a “bag lady” is chosen by Jesus for a special place in his kingdom. People who were thought by many to be church leaders may not even allowed “through the gates.” We just don’t know.
Joanie D.
Help My Unbelief » Blog Archive » Good Theology Questions on 25 Apr 2008 at 10:46 pm #
[...] What do you Mean by Free Will [...]
geoff on 25 Apr 2008 at 10:55 pm #
SRH,
[foreordained!
not just foreknown.
Autonomy is not the same as “vice regent” it means “to act independently.”
do you really think that Adam caught God off guard?
if God foreknew, then it couldn’t happen any other way.
And God didn’t have to coerce Adam into “sin” or making the wrong choice.
Just simply leave him alone and he’ll make the wrong choice.]
Firstly, God was not caught off guard. He FOREKNOWS all things. As I said before, knowledge does not have the property of causation.
Where in Scripture does it say God FOREORDAINED the fall?
If God ORDAINED, then God was the CAUSAL AGENT. He may not have coerced, but if he foreordained, then he caused.
In order for Adam to be God’s representative, He has to be able to act independently. Adam is supposed to have a close intimate relationship with God, and all His actions flow from that. He is not supposed to be “hand held” - He is supposed to know the heart of God and freely choose to obey.
I dont care much what Mr Edwards said. He was a great mind for sure, but a few hundred years of thinking later we able to be more clear.
By the way, if evil is NECESSARY (perish the thought), then why must God punish it, and eventually eradicate it? Its illogical to think it is necessary. And quite frankly, the thought that it is in any way “necessary” is opposed to what the bible teaches.
Rick Frueh on 26 Apr 2008 at 6:37 am #
“That a person has the ability to choose contrary to their nature (who they are)? ”
That is a somewhat false construct, because many of us believe that although our natures are sinful therefore making us sinners, sinners have been GIVEN a free will to choose God initually, and when in cooperation with the power of God’s Spirit that sinner can be saved. Both views have liabilities.
*The free will view can lead to shallow presentations in hopes of human persuasion.
*The unconditional election tends to subliminally and in some cases volitionally hinder any real evangelistic passion assuming no one will not be saved who might have.
The Calvinistic view is unworkable in light of the legion of verses calling all sinners to believe which would make God a mocker to the non-elect. The tortured parsing and redefining of certain common words (all, world, etc.) also puts a square peg in a round hole. Most Calvinists who were not raised reformed enter it with some type of “epiphany” since an open and uncoached reading of the New Testament usually would not lead a believer in that direction.
And if indeed Calvin was correct, then we happen to be living inside an elongated game of divine solataire, and since I have already been “played”, I am waiting for the rest of the deck. In reality, the continuing story of redemption is the greatest of mysteries and the certainty that some project about God’s overarching plan of election not only exalts God’s mind above His love and power as it relates to the expansiveness to the atonement, but it unfortunately contains an essence of spiritual hubris.
Many humble Calvinists have successfully crucified that doctrinal hubris while others fly their doctrinal colors high atop a flagpole of erudite elitism that awaits the poor Arminians to awaken to the “doctrines of grace” or the “sovereignty of God” which transparent self given titles reveal just how they view us.
And even my absolute favorite preacher Brother C.H.Sprugeon Himself could not help himself sometimes. His “Calvinism is the gospel” borders on blasphemy, but I am contenet with hubris. To be fair I know many Calvinists who witness for Christ and one of the most passionate witnesses for Christ I have ever known is a Calvinist and a great friend, however I needle him accusing him of either being a closet Arminian or attempt to “cover all bases”. He is one of the finest and Christlike believers I’ve ever known.
geoff on 26 Apr 2008 at 7:13 am #
Hi Rick:
[i]That is a somewhat false construct, because many of us believe that although our natures are sinful therefore making us sinners, sinners have been GIVEN a free will to choose God initually, and when in cooperation with the power of God’s Spirit that sinner can be saved. Both views have liabilities.[/i]
Your first comment appears to be wrong. Surely if we can choose, then we have “power” and that is something to boast of. If it is only by a gift of grace, then the ONLY choice is one of “responding”.
[i]*The free will view can lead to shallow presentations in hopes of human persuasion.[/i]
I dont understand this statement. But it sounds to me like you are claiming this view is false because it leads the “Wrong kind of evangelism”.
[i]*The unconditional election tends to subliminally and in some cases volitionally hinder any real evangelistic passion assuming no one will not be saved who might have.[/i]
This is actually false. I know more calvinistic believers who present the gospel to people than anyone else. And generally their presentation is well thought out and considered. I’d suggest you are tarnishing the reputation of the many with the ill concieved notions of a few.
SRH on 26 Apr 2008 at 9:00 am #
Where in Scripture does it say God FOREORDAINED the fall?
If Jesus is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
If Jesus is “a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
Then the Fall was foreordained too. You don’t have a foreordained solution without a foreordained problem.
Geoff, do yourself a favor and read Mr Edwards. And no, we haven’t gotten it clearer, we’ve gotten it muckier.
And quite frankly, the thought that it is in any way “necessary” is opposed to what the bible teaches.
Was the Cross a necessary evil? God ordained it!
Thus it is necessary, that God’s awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all.
God created a world where sin is a reality.
Before He created it, He knew it would be a reality.
He created it anyway, which means He intended for it to be.
If, before creation, God can look into the future and see that Adam will sin, (and He can,) then that fact is already fixed, it is already determined. God’s foresight implies the certainty, or “moral necessity” of the act, just as much as a sovereign decree. For that which is certainly foreseen must be certain.
And Foreknowledge is MORE than seeing things ahead of time.
It is having real knowledge, not just a hypothesis or seeing the possibility of future events.
Rick Frueh on 26 Apr 2008 at 9:13 am #
Geoff - it’s all of grace so - no boasting.
The two other statements were “liabilities” not comprehnsive indictments. I hope I made that clear.
geoff on 27 Apr 2008 at 1:56 am #
Rick,
If being “able” to choose is a requirement for salvation, then that requirement is a work. Being able to choose seems alien in the face of God’s preventing Adam’s re-entry into Eden. *shrug*
# 79 - SRH:
1. I have read Edwards, some of His writing is excellent, but in this case He is wrong. He is human, he can be wrong.
You can have a preplanned course of action for something you FOREKNOW will happen. That is in NO WAY foreordaining the event. To ordain is to fix it in stone, prearrange, predestine. This involves CAUSATION and that would make Adam non guilty and God guilty. Not to mention it would make God a hypocrite, unjust and quite frankly, not God.
Those verses only support foreknowledge and do not support God “causing” the fall, only the solution.
2. Yes, God planned, chose and predestined Christ. BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN HE CAUSED THE FALL.
It was NOT necessary. To suggest that disobedience to God is necessary for the good of creation is to say that God was wrong when he first created and said it was good.
This is completely opposed to Scripture.
Rick Frueh on 27 Apr 2008 at 6:40 am #
on s’en fiche !
SRH on 27 Apr 2008 at 5:47 pm #
#81
I think I’ll choose Edwards’ interpretation over yours. His is more in line with scripture and what the Church has taught for 2000 years.
You must be confused about ordaining sin and committing sin.
If Jesus is “a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”
The crucifixion was Foreordained and ordained by God.
The crucifixion is filled with sinful action to bring about
and is a sin in it’s commission by the men who did it.
And that generation was held accountable for it, i.e. destruction of Jerusalem.
(Acts 2:23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
(Acts 4:27-28) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, {28} For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
The Bible teaches that God has decreed in an unchangeable fashion from all eternity what events will take place in nature and history — and even what decisions men will make. He has predetermined the end from the beginning of all things, as well as the means by which all His ends shall be accomplished. According to His own wisdom and in deference to nothing whatsoever outside of Himself and His purposes, God has predetermined or foreordained everything that will happen in the created order and what men will do.
And the Biblical logic says that God’s foreordination does not deprive man of freedom or responsibility. God is able, according to Biblical teaching and reasoning, to determine in advance that a man will exercise his free will in a particular way — and the man freely does so. Without force or compulsion, the man genuinely chooses to do what God had already foreordained.
We will come a long way to solving this difficulty if we understand what is meant by saying that God is not the “author of sin.” It means at least five things:
1. God never commits sin.
2. God is not the positive cause of sin.
3. God cannot be blamed for sin.
4. God does not approve of sin. He hates it and justly punishes it.
5. God does not ordain sin for its own sake.
When God ordains a sinful action, it is not for the sake of the sin itself. Rather, it is for the sake of bringing about a greater good. This is important for a proper understanding of God’s sovereignty: when God ordains evil it is always for the sake of bringing about a greater good.
When humans sin, we do it because we delight in the sin. Our intentions are for evil. But God does not ordain sin because He delights in it. Rather, His intentions are for good. He ordains evil because He delights in the good that He plans to bring out of it. We see this, for example, in the life of Joseph. His brothers, out of hatred, had beat him up and sold him into slavery. But many years later, when Joseph saw his brothers again, he said “And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive” (Genesis 50:20).
Geoff on 27 Apr 2008 at 6:04 pm #
SRH,
I am not confused at all.
God predestining Christ to save the world from Sin is somewhat different to God predestining the Sin in the first place.
I have no problem with God predestining Jesus to be our saviour. I do have a problem with the incoherent notion that God caused Adam to fall, which is what you are saying.
And no, the Bible does not say that God has CAUSED (foreordained) every single event (even that little bit of dust that flew up your nose and made you sneeze?).
The Bible teaches that God FOREKNOWS all things. Knowledge DOES NOT have the property of causation. Knowing what will happen does not cause it to happen.
You do not appear to be able to separate these things out in your mind.
There are places in Scripture where God ordains certain things, and they come to pass. God also predestines to salvation those whom he has chosen. BUT IT DOES NOT SAY EVERYTHING. I suggest you read some Greg Boyd (wow I never thought i’d have to ever suggest to someone to read openness theology). Openness theologians have quite a convincing case for God not predestining all things, because it is true, He does not. BUT HE DOES KNOW ALL THINGS (this is where they fail - Openness theologians that is).
You said: “The Biblical logic says that God’s foreordination does not deprive man of freedom or responsibility.” You are correct. Your version of foreordination though DOES deprive humanity of freedom and responsibility because it makes God the cause of all things, including human sin.
In fact, you make sinful fallen corrupt humanity to be God’s “design”, and you make God to be a sinner.
God does not, and can not sin. Humans can. God may use humans to accomplish his will, but He is not responsible for their actions because He DOES NOT FORCE them to do it, they choose to do it. In the same way, God did not cause Adam to sin, Adam chose to. Therefore we can not in any way consider God to have predestined it.
SRH on 27 Apr 2008 at 6:18 pm #
Sorry, I won’t be reading Boyd’s heresy.
I don’t think I’m the one confused, in fact I used to think as you do.
And I’ve given you plenty of scriptural support for my view.
God Created EVERYTHING.
Including everything that went into every choice that has ever been made.
Perhaps you should do a study on Sovereignty.
And yes, even that little bit of dust that flew up your nose
and made you sneeze. Or that rooster that crowed twice for Peter’s denial.
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree at this point.
Geoff on 27 Apr 2008 at 6:40 pm #
I used to think as you do. Then I went to seminary, but anyway…
I wouldnt be so quick to call anyone a Heretic. Some things are bad, for sure but some things wont affect someones salvation.
God creating everything doesnt mean he creates every choice, it doesnt mean he causes every choice/thought/inclination.
If God does control everything to the nth degree, then my friend, he is also repsonsible for your sin, because you have no choice in the matter. God is also responsible for Adam’s sin, the curse on the ground, for all the evil that has ever been done. He is also a liar when he said “it is good” when he finished creation, because in your opinion, it wasnt good until sin had been introduced.
A cock crow for a specific reason, yes. Random dust, no.
I dont ever agree to disagree, thats a cop out. It means “my mind is closed and I refuse to entertain any other view than my own”. Its sad, but its quite common. I admit, my mind isnt as open to other peopl