The Greer-Heard Forum: A Few Observations

It’s been a couple of weeks since you all heard from me, largely because I was preparing for the Greer-Heard Point-Counterpoint Forum, which took place the first weekend of April at New Orleans Baptist Seminary. The topic for the fourth annual Forum was the reliability of the NT manuscripts. The topic was not specified more than that. Bart Ehrman and I were the main speakers in this dialogue. I understand that CDs and MP3s of the conference will be available next week; the cost will be about $20. Also, Fortress Press is scheduled to produce a book that includes all the lectures (by six speakers), as well as the responses and Q&A.
My major concern in the conference was to address the confidence that we can have that the manuscripts are generally reliable regarding the essential teaching of the NT. This was of utmost importance to me because of how many have read Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus: there has been a lot of wholesale skepticism about what the NT originally said, an impression that readers both have of his book and one that has been reinforced many times by interviews with Ehrman on the radio, TV, and in print.
The skepticism that he has promoted about the text in his popular writing doesn’t match what he has said to professional colleagues. This was a major issue that I pointed out; I was very interested to learn what his real views were.
I’m not sure that I did. But one thing I did learn: Ehrman conceded that no essential belief of the NT was compromised by the textual variants. That’s the main thing that I wanted to press for at the Greer-Heard.
This is an important point that should not be missed: Many Muslims, atheists, and anti-Christian groups have seen Ehrman as a champion for their views. But regardless of how much doubt he may have about the wording of the original text, or how much doubt those who believe they are following his lead have, no one can claim Ehrman as an advocate of an original text that did not speak of the deity of Christ or his bodily resurrection.
To be sure, there were several other issues that we disagreed on, and Ehrman was right to raise the question about these important matters. In particular, the interpretation of various passages depends on the variant readings that an exegete adopts. Ehrman thought that I was only concerned about the theological issues, but that is hardly the case. I was most concerned about that issue largely because of how Ehrman’s writings have been interpreted by some people, and how he made it an issue in Misquoting Jesus. Further, it’s an issue in which heaven or hell hang in the balance, so I do think that it’s far more important than mere interpretive issues. Even though of course the interpretation of the text is exceedingly important, it pales by comparison with the theological issues at stake. I think the reason that Ehrman did not consider the latter such to be a big issue anymore is because of where he has come in his theological thinking: if there is no heaven or hell, if there is no afterlife, then of course the essential Christian beliefs are irrelevant.
A good half dozen people came up to me during the conference, mentioning that this conference would determine whether they would continue to have confidence in the Bible or not. Some had come from hundreds of miles away, even thousands. All of them said that because of the conference their confidence that we had today essentially the word of God was bolstered. To be sure, we do not know whether we have recovered the exact wording of the original, and we may never know. At the same time, we are getting closer and closer. And no essential belief is affected by any viable variants.
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- The Greer-Heard Forum: A Few Observations
- Louisiana Saturday Night: Day Two of the 2008 Greer-Heard Forum
- Friday Night Lights: Day One of the 2008 Greer-Heard Forum
- My Favorite Passage That’s Not in the Bible
- The Composition of the Original Text
C Michael Patton on 15 Apr 2008 at 12:10 am #
Dan Wallace for President! Thanks Dan. Proud is a condescending word, so I won’t use it.
Leslie on 15 Apr 2008 at 4:52 am #
Dr. Wallace:
Ehrman believes that no essential belief of the NT was compromised by the textual variants. So, what is his problem REALLY, if I may ask?
Thanks!
bethyada on 15 Apr 2008 at 5:16 am #
Blessings to you Dan for your faithfulness.
Lee on 15 Apr 2008 at 7:25 am #
Dan,
Thank you for standing in a place where many may never even know. I think of so many at my church and others that have not the first inkling of what textual criticism is or what it has to do with their faith. However the effects of what you and others in the field are doing will be felt for years to come. To these you are an unseen protector of the faith - but not to Him to whom all the glory belongs.
For and from those who do see your commitment to the gospel - may God continue to bless you.
JohnT3 on 15 Apr 2008 at 9:08 am #
I was watching a documentary on CNN, while it was not of my choosing out of curiosity I watched it making note of the people speaking. The show was called Discovering Jesus or Uncovering Jesus or something like that.
The title is inconsequential but it was an Easter special about Jesus. 99% of the people that were shown in the documentary were Professors for colleges and universities (no seminary professors if I remember) and Roman Catholic Priests.
The was one representative from the Protestant side that I recognized and that was Bart Ehrman. I explained that that was exactly what I thought would happen and was asked by the family member to explain what I meant.
I explained to them what I just explained here about my observation and I added that the lone representative from Protestanism was a man who is under serious doubt that has put forward teachings that attack some of the foundational truths of Christianity,
I agree with you Dan that a lot was at stake. With people comming from great distances to be at this conference to find out what was going to be said it raises the ante even more.
I wonder if Ehrman realizes that he is responsible for other believers to have doubts? I wonder if he realizes that he has added fure to the fire of the enemy?
Susan on 15 Apr 2008 at 2:24 pm #
A shining example of what it is to be “salt and light” in the world! I know that you put so much into preparing for that forum. Thank-you. It is so important for all of us to have your research and knowledge at easy reach– that we can truly be “prepared to give an answer” to those who would cast doubt on the reliability of scripture.
I was touched by the grace and dignity you extended to Dr. Ehrman…. a beautiful example for all of us.
I would vote for you for president!
(if I could have the White House phone #)
vinny on 15 Apr 2008 at 2:48 pm #
I don’t think Ehrman can be claimed as an advocate for any original text that speaks with a single voice on any issue. He sees the New Testament as a collection of writings by a number of authors who did not necessarily share the same christology.
When you speak of the “essential teaching of the NT,” you are assuming that the New Testament speaks with a single voice. I don’t know Ehrman’s position on each and every book, but his basic attitude towards the New Testament would certainly allow for the possibility that Paul did not believe in the bodily resurrection or the Trinity even if it was clear that the author of John did.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 15 Apr 2008 at 4:14 pm #
“But one thing I did learn: Ehrman conceded that no essential belief of the NT was compromised by the textual variants. That’s the main thing that I wanted to press for at the Greer-Heard.”
Excellent, excellent pre-debate strategy Professor Wallace. Highest kudos and compliments.
Dan Wallace on 15 Apr 2008 at 4:59 pm #
Vinny, you raise some interesting issues. Ehrman indeed believes that the NT authors held to different views on several important issues. But he also recognizes that the textual variants don’t touch the core values that each author embraced, or that the NT as a whole embraced. And you’re quite right that Ehrman doesn’t think that Paul thought of Jesus as God in the flesh; I would say that he’s dead wrong on that point, as would Gordon Fee, a man whom Ehrman and I both respect immensely. Fee has recently written the gold standard on Paul’s Christology, a book with which all exegetes and theologians must now grapple.
But at the same time, Ehrman acknowledges that the NT authors all embraced the humanity of Christ, and, I suspect, that not one of them wrote in such a way that would contradict the explicit teaching about his deity. Ehrman, however, is very big on an argument from silence; e.g., since Luke doesn’t mention a vicarious atonement in his gospel, he must have disagreed with the idea. That’s a bit far-fetched, frankly, especially since Luke wrote a chaser that gathered together a lot of his theological motifs–including Christology and soteriology.
I know you don’t care for the positions that many Christians have, but I think that you’re a bit too quick to come to judgment without knowing all the facts. And you can’t use Ehrman any more in a way that may have in the past.
vinny on 15 Apr 2008 at 6:30 pm #
Dan,
Obviously, I don’t know all the different ways that people have used Ehrman in the past so I cannot say which ones might now be precluded. I can say that nothing in the accounts I have read of the debate conflicts with what I thought he was saying before.
By the way, aren’t you making an argument from silence when you say that none of the New Testament authors “wrote in such a way that would contradict the explicit teaching about his deity?†The question is “Would you expect them to?†If they believed Christ to be God incarnate, I would think that is something they would make clear in their writings because it is so dramatic and unusual. However, if they only believed him to be a specially chosen and anointed human, would it occur to them to explicitly state that he wasn’t God? They might not have contradicted it simply because it never entered their minds.
I am not that familiar with Ehrman’s argument from silence regarding Luke. I would think the best you could infer is Luke’s lack of knowledge about vicarious atonement, not his disagreement
Dan Wallace on 15 Apr 2008 at 8:08 pm #
Vinny wrote, “Aren’t you making an argument from silence when you say that none of the New Testament authors “wrote in such a way that would contradict the explicit teaching about his deity?”
Vinny, I apologize for not making myself clearer. I can certainly see how you would think that that was my view; rather, I was reflecting what I considered Ehrman’s view to be on the matter.
As for my view on whether the NT authors embraced the deity of Christ, I agree with you to some degree that the NT authors would think that such a radical alteration of Jewish monotheism was so significant that they would want to make it known. But, for the same reason, they would have to be very careful about doing so. This is a profound issue, and one that I’ve spent the last twenty years researching. It’s not something for soundbyte exchanges.
But on the deity of Christ, I would encourage you to read Rob Bowman and Ed Komoszewski’s Putting Jesus in his Place. It’s a remarkable book that gives overwhelming evidence as to how the NT authors would have thought of Jesus. And ’silence’ on his nature is not the word that comes to mind.
vinny on 15 Apr 2008 at 8:22 pm #
Dan,
The New Testament authors were being careful? That is an interesting contention and one that seems to be at odds with all the apologetics I have ever read. I wll be interested in seeing how you develop that thesis when you complete your research.
BTW, I understood that you were speculating about Ehrman’s view, but I figured that you would not have been pointing it out unless it was a view that you shared as well.
jwjoslin on 15 Apr 2008 at 9:35 pm #
Dan - when will the big NT manuscript discovery you guys made be released? Or did I miss the press release?
Stan G from NJ on 15 Apr 2008 at 10:13 pm #
Dan & other bloggers,
Thank you as I too agree that this conference had to be key to our beliefs
about the NT and its reliability because Lord knows there are enough folks
out there who would love nothing more then to sweep Christianity under
the rug and replace it with ???
I too am interested in hearing more on the NT manuscripts you have been
looking at of late ?
Glod Bless, thank you, Stan
Dan Wallace on 15 Apr 2008 at 10:19 pm #
jw,
I think you missed the first wave of announcements. Here’s where some of the announcements have appeared:
Local Dallas ABC affiliate, WFAA-News, gave it top billing at the 10 pm news a couple of weeks ago (it’s posted on Youtube)
Front-page in the religion section of the Dallas Morning News; same story picked up in about two dozen newspapers
Several radio stations, from California to Washington DC; a new interview on the Moody Broadcasting Network should be broadcast in the next few days (on hundreds of stations nationwide)
Christianity Today is running both a web version of the story and a print version, coming out next month
Several other radio, TV, internet, and print news agencies are also doing interviews. I’m not at liberty to speak about which ones, but there are quite a few, some of which are in Europe.
The full report about our discoveries can be found at http://www.csntm.org.
Dan Wallace on 15 Apr 2008 at 10:26 pm #
Vinny, as for the NT authors being careful in their wording, this is an old thesis. I suspect you are just reading apologists rather than NT scholars. It’s hardly unique with me. Let me ask you: Do you know Greek? Have you logged years of study in the Greek text of the NT? Have you read the exegetical literature on both sides of the theological aisle, and in more than just English? Have you traced the development of Christology from the earliest books of the NT through the period of the Apostolic Fathers? This is where I have lived for the past two decades. When someone tells me that they’re unaware of this basic viewpoint, I’m not shocked; but it does tell me that that person is only dealing with popular apologetics rather than serious biblical scholarship.
You need to read Larry Hurtado, R. T. France, Richard Bauckham, C. F. D. Moule, as well as Martin Hengel, and many others to get up to speed on these issues. I certainly hope that you are open to truly pursuing truth rather than simply defending agnostic skepticism.
vinny on 15 Apr 2008 at 11:37 pm #
No Dan,
I don’t know Greek and I have not logged years of study in the New Testament and I have only read a little bit of exigetical literature although I do try to read things from many viewpoints but I barely remember my high school French so all my reading has been in English.
I plainly misperceived what you meant by “they would have to be very careful about doing so.” That suggested to me that they had some trepidation about how about expounding doctrine that would be percieved as heretical by the Jewish authorities. This seemed contrary to the usual portrayal of the apostles as bold and fearless preachers. Had you used the phrase “careful in their wording,” I might not have taken the meaning I took, but then again, I might still have misunderstood.
In any case, since you had indicated that this was an issue of some profundity that was beyond the scope of this forum, I was really just trying to find a polite way to say “Wow. That sounds interesting.” I guess I did not find it. I apologize.
kolabok21 on 16 Apr 2008 at 8:13 am #
Dan Wallace,
I was hoping if you could elaborate on the titles or subject matter of the authors you mentioned. I have read Bauckham’s book on Revelation and find it to be resourceful well thought out, which would lead me to believe his other Works are of the same caliber.
Dan wrote;
You need to read Larry Hurtado, R. T. France, Richard Bauckham, C. F. D. Moule, as well as Martin Hengel, and many others to get up to speed on these issues. I certainly hope that you are open to truly pursuing truth rather than simply defending agnostic skepticism.
I am assuming Christological in content.
Secondly, what are your thoughts about Joachim Jeremias writings on the same subject material?
BTW I follow with great interest since IMO this will shape the faith of many to come in the future if God continues to give us the time to pursue him
Thank you,
Bryant
britphil on 16 Apr 2008 at 8:19 am #
Dan
There are very few people who would be brave enough, capable intelligent, enough or discerning enough to engage regulalrly in the sort of stuff you do so full marks from me.
Dan Wallace on 16 Apr 2008 at 8:24 pm #
kolabok21,
here’s some texts for starters:
Martin Hengel, Issues in Early Christology
Richard Bauckham, God Crucified
Larry Hurtado, One God, One Lord; Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity
C. F. D. Moule, Origin of Christology
And don’t forget Bowman and Komoszewski, Putting Jesus in His Place
Chuck Grantham on 17 Apr 2008 at 12:15 am #
Thanks for the book recommendations. Along with the books written, blog posts written, manuscripts photographed, debates, articles, classes taught etc.
It wears me out just counting….
Looking forward to hearing the forum audio.
Chuck Grantham on 17 Apr 2008 at 1:46 am #
Late night update: The full-set audio from Greer Heard 2008 is now available for download at http://www.watchman.org/store/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=914
Be warned it is a massive 363 megabyte download. The price is quite small, I think.
I’m putting it right on my mp3 player.
*be a forerunner* » Blog Archive » 2008 Greer-Heard Forum - Dr. Wallace & Dr. Ehrman on 18 Apr 2008 at 11:20 am #
[...] This year’s forum was on the textual reliability of the New Testament. Ed Komoszewski has written two articles giving somewhat of a ‘review’ of the discussions between Wallace and Ehrman, along with the other guest speakers (Michael W. Holmes, Dale B. Martin, David Parker, and William F. Warren). The articles are Friday Night Lights: Day One of the 2008 Greer-Heard Forum and Louisiana Saturday Night: Day Two of the 2008 Greer-Heard Forum, respectively. Dr. Wallace chimed in to provide his initial observations as well. [...]
Bob on 19 Apr 2008 at 12:03 pm #
Vinny–
I think you confuse “careful” with “fearful”. Obviously, I don’t speak for Prof Wallace, but his meaning seemed clear enough to me. If the good professor had meant that the NT writers were being weaselly in their wording in order to avoid pursecution, I believe he’d have plainly said so.
To put this another way, if I tell my son to be “careful” (the last time I see him before his deployment to Iraq), I am counselling him to be “precise” (not “trepidatious”) about his duty.
vinny on 19 Apr 2008 at 1:38 pm #
Bob,
I don’t think it was so much confusion about the meaning of “careful” as it was confusion about the motivation for being careful. As you correctly note, a person can be careful because he desires precision, which was the meaning that Dr. Wallace intended. However, a person can also be careful in order to avoid some feared consequence. That just wasn’t the right way to look at what Dr. Wallace was saying.
Reliability of New Testament « Singing In The Rain on 21 Apr 2008 at 6:48 am #
[...] A couple of weeks ago, the Greer-Heard Point-Counterpoint Forum, which took place at New Orleans Baptist Seminary, had as its fourth annual Forum. The topic was the reliability of the NT manuscripts. Speakers included: [...]
Rick Sieber on 08 Jul 2008 at 1:46 pm #
An initial point which Ehrman emphasizes is that some of the entrenched beliefs in inerrancy etc handed down from generation after generation of uncritical scholars should be questioned in light of the proven interpolation and sometimes sloopy copying habits of past generations. It doesn’t do any harm to reexamine old beliefs in light of new evidence or entertain notions that we don’t have everything completely figured out yet. Or does the domino theory prevail? The one used to condemn Galileo, if the people find out we might be wrong in one thing they might decide we are wrong about everything?
Dan Wallace on 08 Jul 2008 at 11:42 pm #
Rick, I’m not exactly sure what you’re getting at when you speak of ’sloopy copying habits’ and how they would relate to inerrancy. But in any event, the copies have nothing to do with the inerrancy of the original text. That is a different topic. Further, inerrancy was not on the table in the Greer-Heard Forum. Bringing in Galileo at this juncture certainly appeals to the adventurous spirit and tenacity of honest scholarship that we would all hope to emulate, but such an analogy plays at the heartstrings more than it gets at the nub of the issue.