Is the Hyper-Preterist Gospel a Different Gospel? Part 2: My View
In my last post on hyper-Preterism, I pondered whether hyper-Preterism is a false Gospel. This post is simply meant to be an interlude as to where I presently stand.
As I may have said before, I have had very little contact with hyper-Preterism. I don’t even know anyone personally who believes such. In a lot of ways, the arguments remind me of flat-earth arguments. As Simon Cowell would say, “Sorry.” From a theological standpoint they seem to be very unsophisticated and short-sighted, without a broad knowledge of theological inquiry. It would seem that they take a few problem issues and suppose “simple” solutions that create many more serious problems that seem to escape their notice. Because of its viability, biblically and historically, I did not even include it in the course on eschatology in The Theology Program. (Plus, I ran out of room.)
I understand that some of people who have responded to my last post are hyper-Preterists and I do appreciate their contribution here as well as the tone they have brought. Please forgive me if I seem to be talking down to you who are hyper-Preterists, I don’t mean to (I am sure you get it a lot). But try as I may to understand and find some degree of legitimacy in your theology, I can’t.
I am still not ready to say that it is damnable, but it seems to me to be an extremely serious departure from some essential elements in the Gospel. No matter how one defines orthodoxy, I cannot find a place for the eschatology of the hyper-Preterist. It is about as far as one can deviate from the beaten path.
You must understand where I come from. I make my living at trying to see the other side of theological issues. People who know me know this. So please don’t see me as simply brushing this option off because I feel uncomfortable with it or am so steeped in my tradition that I am unable to consider it. I by no means claim that I can be completely objective, but I do a pretty good job of training my bias to be my slave. It is one thing that I am really good at.
I will continue to examine this in the future, but have yet to find anyone who is balanced and a hyper-Preterist. When too much passion is thrown in the direction of pushing some eschatological issue—whether dispensational, preterist, or otherwise—red flags go up all over. Perspective must be maintained. If someone were to say, “This is what I believe (i.e. hyper-Preterism), but I very well might be wrong and I am not sure about this issue, it is just where I lean,” then I could take them more seriously. I would see that they recognize the enormous problems created by this system and in this recognition display intellectual honesty. I have yet to find this in the hyper-Preterist camp. What I have seen are booths at ETS giving away hyper-Preterist material saying everyone has wrong eschatology but them. I have seen books and websites that seem to think they have solved all the problems in biblical eschatology with a very simplistic answer. I have seen those who arrogantly and confidently dismiss the body of Christ’s consensual agreement about the future coming of Christ. They do this without fear saying, “We have it all figured out…it is so simple, there is no future resurrection!”
Buggers. How did we all get it so wrong?
To claim, as some often do, the legacy of the Reformers would be a serious misunderstanding of doctrinal development and the issues of the Reformation. The hyper-Preterist option to reform eschatology is not in any way parallel to what the Reformers brought to the table with regards to the doctrines of justification or authority. The Reformers did not produce an antithetical option of a historically established doctrine in either case. They had a great fear of introducing something new or outside of established orthodoxy. What they said was that the instrumental cause of justification, faith, was being blurred by works. They sought to reform this doctrine. As well, they believed that the authority of Scripture was being usurped by the institutional church. They sought to reform this as well. In both cases, their reform, agree with it or not, was not antithetical to any historically established truths. It was a correction, not a new creation.
Hyper-Preterism, on the other hand, is different. Not only does it create more serious biblical problems than it solves, but it produces a completely new eschatology that somehow has escaped the notice of the Church for 2000 years. It is not viable with any view history and the providential care of God over his Church. With this view of history, the Gospel that is produced must draw from the restorationist philosophy of the Jehovah’s Witness’ or Mormons. It says that the Church—Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic, indeed, everyone—have the Gospel wrong with regard to our future hope. The redemption of all things, the coming of Christ, judgment, resurrection, and the new heavens and earth is a past or present reality. We have a new Gospel for you. It is based in Scripture.
Sure it is. I challenge you to find one heresy that does not make such a claim.
In the end, I am still wrestling with to what degree this affects the Gospel. Either way, I do believe that hyper-Preterism corrupts the Gospel seriously, I just don’t know whether it produces a different Gospel to the degree of other “Christian” cults.
God help us to deal with such issues wisely.
P.S. Different issue: Do you think this type of posts will get the anti-Emergents off my back? . . . nah . . . I will get under their skin again later.
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- Is the Hyper-Preterist Gospel a Different Gospel? Part 2: My View
- Is the Hyper-Preterist Gospel a Different Gospel?
- Destiny of the Unevangelized
- An Emerging Understanding of Orthodox
- What does it take to be an Evangelical?
dee dee warren on 26 Mar 2008 at 6:36 am #
Hi Michael, I do really recommend you read the exchange between David Reed and Keith Mathison:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050318034145/http://www.strato.net/~dagreen/matresponse.html
In it David concedes that if futurism (which to him is anything other hyperpreterism) is correct, then hyperpreterism is a definitely damnable heresy.
I have another article on this whole damnable thing, that I think you would agree with:
http://preteristsite.com/wordpress/?p=40
It deals with the difference between a damnable heresy and a damned heretic. Hyperpreterism is a nonChristian belief system. Some professed hyperpreterists might be saved despite it for the various reasons I outline there and in my prior posts here on this blog. However, we can only judge by what people profess, and it is God who judges the hearts and knows all the mitigating circumstances.
I urge you not to hesitate in continue to ponder this and would suggest that the Scripture explicitly condemns only a few heresies - the rest are condemned implicitly. This is one of the explicit ones. The similarities with christian science and gnosticism are striking.
Steve on 26 Mar 2008 at 8:30 am #
You don’t understand my problem, Michael. If I post here and try to defend my beliefs, “red flags go up all over”. Yet the fact that Dee Dee Warren spends most of her time and her website space talking about full preterism, and goes so far as to email theologians with a less-than-obsessive condemnation of full preterism - none of this raises red flags? It’s ok to be obsessed about a particular doctrine as long as you’re attacking it, apparently. I am no more confident in full preterism than you are in the Reformed doctrine of election. But I am confident enough to defend it when my eternal salvation is being questioned.
But think about it for a minute: if you became convinced of an unorthodox position and everyone was dismissing your beliefs on a surface level without really engaging anything from within your frame of reference, looking at the exegetical rationale for it, and if you truly believed that your belief had unrecognized merit, should you be accused of obsession if you tried to raise people’s opinions of it? How would you go about it? Some have begun to try “marketing” their belief to raise awareness and lower it on the list of “Huh?! I never heard of such!” doctrines. Many Christians taking a full preterist view have gone about it by writing books, books that don’t get very high visibility. So they take a booth. I understand that you would roll your eyes at the ETS campaigners you ran into. But it is no crime that they were confident enough of their position to assert its truthfulness and seek to engage your prejudices despite your reticence to take an eschatological position.
I love your podcast, especially the excellent series on hermeneutics. I have been listening to your series on orthodoxy. I am quite familiar with your normally even-handed approach and your willingness to look at opposing views. So surely you recognize that you can’t really approach anyone’s theology without engaging primary sources, in this case, a systematic full preterist viewpoint as written in one of the many, many books trying to explain it. You can’t really say you’ve engaged a theological topic if you’ve only listened to the criticisms of its harshest critics.
If it means anything to you, James Jordan used to call full preterism a damnable heresy, but after a public debate in 2004 ( I think it was), he apologized and said that, while heterodox, full preterism was not heretical in the damnable sense. If you’re not going to engage Preston, Frost, Ed Stevens, or any of the other high-profile full preterist theologians, you should at least talk to him.
And for the record, I hope you get around to expressing the “serious”, “enormous problems” you have with preterism, not from anyone else’s mouth but your own. I would be more than willing to listen and to learn. If I were not willing to question my beliefs, I never would have left dispensationalist futurism. In other words, “This is what I believe (i.e. hyper-Preterism), but I very well might be wrong and I am not sure about this issue, it is just where I lean.”
Dee Dee Warren on 26 Mar 2008 at 9:02 am #
Michael, I had posted the first comment here this morning, but now it seems to have disappeared - is it being held in moderation?
I don’t want to repost if it will be coming up.
Steve - you have no idea where I spend most of my time, don’t presume on what you don’t know. If you wish to say this is a subject of enormous interest to me and that I have a podcast and a website dedicated to it, that is fine. However, it is not where I spend the majority of free time. The majority of my time is at work. The second majority is with family. The rest is primarily at TheologyWeb where people beg me to talk about eschatology and I prefer to discuss other topics. Oh and I also write third party product reviews for World of Apple and am extremely involved in technological posts and activities. So please don’t presume knowledge that you don’t have.
I am posting my thoughts here because I was invited to. Michael is the first theologian that I have written on this subject in well over a year IIRC - in fact, I can’t remember the last one I wrote to. If you are going to characterize me, please do it correctly.
>>If it means anything to you, James Jordan used to call full preterism a damnable heresy, but after a public debate in 2004 ( I think it was), he apologized and said that, while heterodox, full preterism was not heretical in the damnable sense. If you’re not going to engage Preston, Frost, Ed Stevens, or any of the other high-profile full preterist theologians, you should at least talk to him.>>
James Jordan is dead wrong. There are many more who started out believing it is just heterodox and after further study came to different conclusions. I have the personal experience of working with elders of congregations torn apart by this controversy - who didn’t want to believe it was foundational heresy - this was their friends and church-mates we were talking about. On PreteristSite there is an audio testimony of Pastor David Roth of what hyperpreterism did to his church.
I can ask one of the elders, Steve Atkerson to come and participate if he has time if you like Michael. Otherwise you can look up his articles on my site - he had to struggle profoundly with this very question.
Steve on 26 Mar 2008 at 9:42 am #
My apologies, Dee Dee. I don’t want to mischaracterize you. FWIW, I didn’t mean to imply that your work time or family time suffered for it. You are obviously a person of prodigious energy and time management skills. Your website alone would take all the free time I have! Please take no offense.
But if your position was constantly being degraded and your salvation questioned, I daresay you would spend a little more time defending it.
Dee Dee Warren on 26 Mar 2008 at 9:55 am #
>>My apologies, Dee Dee. I don’t want to mischaracterize you. FWIW, I didn’t mean to imply that your work time or family time suffered for it. You are obviously a person of prodigious energy and time management skills. Your website alone would take all the free time I have! Please take no offense.>>
Thank you very much.
>>But if your position was constantly being degraded and your salvation questioned, I daresay you would spend a little more time defending it.>>
My position is constantly being degraded - and some question my salvation. But my reason for posting isn’t really to defend or question how much time a person is spending but to dialog with Michael about foundational heresy.
I don’t necessarily believe it is always wrong for very focused on a particular issue. William Lane Craig is known for specializing on the defense of the resurrection - Walter Martin for combatting cults … the list could go on. I think a lot is more to do with personality type - some people throw themselves into their interests and abilities more than others.
Right now, honestly, my free hobby time is spent at a ratio of 10-1 on Apple-related things. It is good to take a breater. The podcast is taking a lot of time, but that is more on learning the technology - which again is an Apple-related topic..
John Divito on 26 Mar 2008 at 10:10 am #
Michael,
To provide a (somewhat) unrelated point, hyperpreterism and some emergers are not quite as distinct as you may believe. For example, see Brian McLaren’s open appreciation of hyperpreterist Jay Gary (here is the latest example). He has also talked about rethinking some eschatological issues after reading hyperpreterist Max King’s work (you can listen to the podcasts here: Part 1 and Part 2).
Of course, I cannot forget to provide some necessary disclaimers: 1) I am not saying that Brian McLaren represents all (or even many) emergers. At the same time, he is a well-known leader in the Emergent movement and cannot be dismissed. 2) I am not saying that Brian McLaren is a hyperpreterist. Nevertheless, I do see a common willingness to disregard centuries (and even millennia) of Christian consensus and historical Christian teaching in favor of “newly rediscovered” truths.
I do not want to make too big of a deal out of this, but I find both groups too easily discarding orthodoxy for the sake of their own interests.
JohnT3 on 26 Mar 2008 at 10:52 am #
Steve,
While I don’t want to denegrate your efforts, and in being honest I do not agree with pretrism hyper or other wise, but I would like you to please list scriptures that support your view.
Thanks
Mike Beidler on 26 Mar 2008 at 11:40 am #
Michael,
I am still not ready to say that it is damnable, but it seems to me to be an extremely serious departure from some essential elements in the Gospel.
Like Steve (#1), I think it is very important that you communicate these “serious departures” in your own words.
I think I should also make it clear that full preterism is built upon a solid, exegetical foundation. A lot of other issues such as the nature (not the reality) of the Resurrection and the nature of the Millennium tend to block one’s ability to understand that aforementioned foundation. Because of this, many readily dismiss the position. Even I did, at first. It was people like R. C. Sproul and Kenneth Gentry that really made me take another look at the foundation.
I make my living at trying to see the other side of theological issues.
And in almost every case, you’ve done a phenomenal job! I have learned a ton from this blog, and it’s helped me work out some issues in my own spiritual walk. But in this particular instance, you seem to be considerably more reticent to discuss exegetical reasons why you reject full preterism.
but have yet to find anyone who is balanced and a hyper-Preterist
I’m not sure exactly what you are getting at here. How do you define “balanced”?
If someone were to say, “This is what I believe (i.e. hyper-Preterism), but I very well might be wrong and I am not sure about this issue, it is just where I lean,†then I could take them more seriously.
Consider it said, Michael. There are a number of topics that are affected by a full preterist eschatology of which I am unsure how to handle. But I am confident that I’m on the right track, just as you are confident about the validity of Calvinism.
[The Reformation] was a correction, not a new creation.
You might not find full preterism systematically expounded in the ECFs, but you can find many of the major elements of full preterism scattered throughout the church fathers. I wouldn’t say the elements are new, but it’s systematization certainly is, and I’m willing to admit that. There are a number of 19th-century full preterist works (in scanned .pdf format from libraries at Harvard and U of Michigan) that I can email to you. (And FWIW, the full preterist booth at ETS wasn’t giving away hyper-preterist materials. It was giving away copies of James Stuart Russell’s The Parousia. And J. S. Russell was not a full preterist.)
Jugulum on 26 Mar 2008 at 1:20 pm #
CMP said,
I make my living at trying to see the other side of theological issues.
Do you ever feel like this?
I know I do.
dee dee warren on 26 Mar 2008 at 5:04 pm #
>>You might not find full preterism systematically expounded in the ECFs, but you can find many of the major elements of full preterism scattered throughout the church fathers. >>
This is untrue. I have no doubt that a heresy here and there might be found - heck I will trump you on that, I can show you hyperpreterism right in the Bible. Hymenaues and Philetus. The united testimony of the church has been in a future second coming of Christ, a future bodily resurrection of Christ, and a future consummation of all things. There are not outright denials of these things to any extent that can even remotely be mustered as comprising ECF support. Again, I don’t doubt that you can find one heretic. But that would be like me arguing for self-mutiliation because an ECF castrated himself.
If “scattered” “elements” are all that is needed to overthrow the united testimony of the church, embedded in the earliest creeds, than Arianism would have a much better argument than hyperpreterism.
Also, it would be odd the thousandth degree that the very people who lived through the 1 Cor 15 event never recognized the consumation. Were the apostles really that crappy of teachers that the church in toto lost the basic elements of eschatology immediately? Again, Mormons make similar claims - and I daresay can find more “scattered” “elements” for their doctrine men becoming gods than hyperpreterism can find.
Now I have found when pressed on this, because this is a common claim of hyperpreterists, the “elements” that are produced fall into several categories.
1. They are simply preterist statements - not uniquely hyperpreterist which is the point under dispute.
2. They are suscpetible of several interpretations and other writings from the same author show that any possible hyperpreterist interpretation would require that the author completely contradict himself and the church.
3. They are a lone heretic.
4. They refer to something as a spiritual or past event, but never claim that there isn’t also a future fulfillment - that is not hyperpreterism.
Mike Beidler on 26 Mar 2008 at 7:08 pm #
Jugulum,
That cartoon, my friend, is too funny! Consider it the story of my life.
Steve on 26 Mar 2008 at 7:19 pm #
JohnT3,
I point to the same passages that futurists do. I just mean something different by them
Seriously, the starting point is reading every word of Matthew 24 and listening to every one of Jesus’ words as though it were entirely new to you, and as His original audience, the disciples would, starting especially with the context of the disciples talking about the temple at the beginning of the passage; keep in mind the catastrophic events of Titus’ siege and ultimate decimation of Jerusalem forty years later as described by the Jewish historian Josephus. Audience relevance is one of the foundational hermeneutical principles that lead to preterism.
But if this doesn’t help you begin to see where we’re coming from, then turn to the following complex of passages and view their message as a whole as it would appear to the original audiences.
Matthew 3:2,7,10,12, 4:17, 10:7,23, 12:32, 16:27,28, 21:40-45, 24:34, 26:64
Mark 1:15, 12:9,12, 13:30
Luke 3:7,9,17, 10:9,11, 20:15-19, 21:22,32, 23:28-30, 24:21
John 14:18,20,22, 21:22
Acts 2:16-17, 4:25, 17:31, 24:15
Romans 4:23-24, 8:13,18, 13:11-12, 16:20
1 Corinthians 7:29,31, 10:11, 15:51-52, 16:22
Ephesians 1:21
Philippians 4:5
Colossians 1:23,46, 2:16-17
1 Thessalonians 4:15,17, 5:23
2 Thessalonians 1:6-7
1 Timothy 4:8, 6:14,19
2 Timothy 3:1-9, 4:1
Hebrews 1:1-2,14, 2:5, 6:5,7-8, 8:13, 9:8-10,11,26, 10:1,25,27,37, 13:14
James 2:12, 5:1,3,7,8
1 Peter 1:6,20, 3:3,5, 4:5,7,17, 5:1
2 Peter 1:19, 2:3, 3:10-12
1 John 2:8,17,18, 4:3
Jude 4,14-15,17-19
Revelation 1:1,3, 2:25, 3:10,11, 12:5, 18:24, 22:6,7,10,12,20
Steve on 26 Mar 2008 at 7:27 pm #
Of course, those are only the “time text” passages. You could also (and I hesitate to mention this for fear of sounding like I have “too much passion”) come by my blog and look at my posts under the category of “preterism” (in reverse order, because that’s how blogs work!) to see how I treat other eschatological passages. Of course, I’m always learning and my views are subject to change as weaknesses/inconsistencies in my position are pointed out.
gonzodave on 26 Mar 2008 at 9:07 pm #
Michael,
Why is the eschaton of the hyper-preterist NOT a limitation of the work of Christ? There is no consummation. A short hand term for the premillennial view used by DD Warren last night in Part One of this discussion.
Scripture says many times that Christ is “all things” (Gk.=ta panta). The post-millennial view is a limitation that opens the door to religious humanism. The ground upon which all cultic Christian systems (of Christology) have been based since the first denominational split in 1 John. Those early secessionist definitely had their “gospel” confused (ref,. RE Brown, “The Letters of John - Anchor Bible”).
As for me, understanding the Christology and Soterioly expounded by CI Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer, salvation cannot be separated from a balanced Christology and Soterioly. Doctrines cannot be segregated as some may wish. The “my gospel” of Paul was the full blown understanding that was given to him, not by man, but God.
Regards,
Dave
gonzodave on 26 Mar 2008 at 9:25 pm #
sorry, sp. “Soteriology”
gonzodave on 26 Mar 2008 at 11:47 pm #
In the #12 comment, Steve has posted these words of RC Sproul (undeception.com) regarding the preterist view of “consummation.”
“After the Resurrection [Jesus] sojourns on the earth for a few weeks with His disciples until that moment comes where He ascends into heaven. And what’s the point of the Ascension? . . . [The] “ascension†here takes on a technical meaning, where it means not simply to go up, but . . . to go up to a specific place for a specific purpose. And the place to which He goes is the right hand of God and the purpose for His ascent is to go to His coronation, to His investiture, as the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant, where God now crowns Him not just one more king in the line of Davidic kings, but He crowns Him the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and to Whom all the nations of the world are given beneath His authority and under His dominion. And His reign is announced by God in the New Covenant not to last for four hundred years like the dynasty of David but “He shall reign for ever and ever†and ever and ever to which the Church cries, “Hallelujah!—
I respond: What kind of “one covenant,” Federal, limited “consummation” teaching fable is this? Christ is not NOW seated on His own throne. The entire present revealed ministry of Christ Jesus, our High priest, is denied in order to form this concept of half-truth. In Hebrews and 1 John the present Advocacy and Intercessory ministry of Christ is clearly revealed.
Michael, why is the fence a more comfortable seat? Christ is seated at the right hand of God, yes; yet He is fully active 24/7/365 ministering and securing the completion of “the Body of Christ.”
Regards,
Dave