An Emerging Understanding of “Orthodox” - Part 3: The Maturing of Orthodoxy
My view of what I call “progressive orthodoxy” allows for maturation and development in our understanding of orthodoxy. Here is the definition I gave in the last blog:
Progressive Orthodoxy: The belief that the ultimate authority for the Christian faith is found only in the Scriptures (sola Scriptura) and that orthodoxy is a progressive development of the Church’s understanding of the Scriptures. Progressive orthodoxy, like paleo-orthodoxy, seeks the consensus of the Church throughout time for the core essential theological issues, finding most of these in the early church expressed in the ecumenical councils. But it also believes that our understanding of these issues can and may mature both through articulation and added perspective. This “maturing†does not amount to any essential change, but only progressive development as theological issues are brought to the table of church history through controversy and exegetical discovery.
Here is how it looks so far:

The question are many at this point. Here are some of them:
- How does this “maturing” process take place? This is not an easy question to answer for every tradition will claim that their maturation is the correct one.
- Once a doctrine as “matured” does this mean that it’s mature form is the “new” orthodoxy?
- What if someone rejects the maturation in favor of its immatured form? Are they still “orthodox” in an immature sense?
- What if some person, tradition, or institution favors a form that has matured slightly differently? Are they “unorthodox”?
Let me give you some examples:
I believe in doctrine of salvation by faith alone (sole fide). This means that the sole instrumental cause of justification, from a human standpoint, is faith without the addition of any works, including baptism. But this doctrine, as such, was not fully articulated until the time of the Reformation. It was not until then, due to the controversy that arose, that the church was forced to mature in this particular aspect of soteriology (salvation). But I have a problem. The church, until this time, generally accepted some form of works-based justification, whether it be through baptismal regeneration, or the addition of some other good work.
The same thing can be said about my view of the atonement. I believe in what is called the vicarious substitutionary view of the atonement. This means that I believe that Christ served as the substitute for man (or the redeemed), taking their punishment and making it his own while on the cross. Yet this doctrine only existed in seed form until the time of Anselm. Anselm, in the 11th century, introduced the church to the “satisfaction” theory of the atonement. This was more fully developed later by John Calvin. It now goes by the name “substitutionary” or “penal” atonement. What of those who did not believe such before Anselm or Calvin?
For both of these (and others), I have a few options:
1. I could say that before these doctrines were understood and articulated according to my current Protestant understanding, no one was truly saved or, at the very least, orthodox. (Radical Restorationism)
2. I could say that these doctrines did exist before, just in unarticulated form. (Oden?)
3. I could say that these doctrines did exist in the earliest church, but the church became corrupted and lost them. (Reformers)
4. I could say that their immature state was sufficient for the time, but is now insufficient. (Conservative Progressives)
5. I could say that these developments, while true, don’t really matter with regards to defining orthodoxy. (Emerging)
I am torn by some of these. The only one that I reject outright is #1. I also have some problems with #4. The rest may contain truth. In fact, the answer may lie in a combination of 2-5. It depends on the issue at hand. In other words, I don’t think any one of these comprehensively explains the maturation of orthodoxy for all issues. Some beliefs I believe were held by the early church and later corrupted (e.g. sola Scriptura). Some were just assumed without question and the lack of questioning amounted to their immaturity (e.g. baptismal regeneration). Some, once questioned, did reveal orthodoxy as it should be understood by all (sola fide). Some came into later maturation, but should not have any bearing on historic Christian orthodoxy (Calvinism, dispensationalism, rapture, etc.).
Next, I will try to chart out (you know how I love charts!) the way this would look with respect to Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox orthodoxy.
Go to Part 4
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- An Emerging Understanding of “Orthodox” - Part 3: The Maturing of Orthodoxy
- An Emerging Understanding of “Orthodox” - Part 4: Are Catholics Orthodox?
- An Emerging Understanding of “Orthodox” - Part 1: Introduction
- An Emerging Understanding of “Orthodox” - Part 2: Six Views of Orthodoxy
- An Emerging Understanding of Orthodox
bearish on 19 Mar 2008 at 3:28 pm #
IMO, option No. 3 is the closest to truth.
If the Bible is a puzzle book that was not even understood by the people who wrote it (for example, OT prophets who didn’t know the messiah was part of the Godhead or had to die for sins), then on what basis does one judge that certain new ideas are wrong?
If you believe truth is learned progressively, how do you reject Mormonism or even David Koresh?
Still, the problem with No. 3 is that even if you wanted to stick to some “perfect” early church doctrine, it is impossible to determine exactly what that would be.
One reason I think here are so many different doctrines garnered from reading the same set of books is that there are multiple viewpoints on a lot of issues within those books, sometimes even in different parts of the same book.
Alden on 19 Mar 2008 at 4:19 pm #
These options, of course, assumes that the person asking these questions is, in fact, orthodox. We should also ask, from the point of view of Augustine, or Anselm, or Luther, “would we be considered orthodox?” It seems then, that there is a 6th option, that the historical church (at whatever point) was orthodox, and that we aren’t.
Progressive revelation is somewhat of a scary proposition, and I’m thinking here of the Emerging, “Open Source” concept as well as groups like Mormonism. Is orthodoxy now decided by popular vote or by contemporary consensus? (of course, some would say that it always was…)
I think an historical context is important. Is our “new” understanding only nuanced, or is it in opposition to a historically orthodox understanding? At what point do we diverge enough to be considered heterodox, or heretical?
Alden on 19 Mar 2008 at 4:22 pm #
By the way, I just noticed that I jumped the gun a bit, as it appears you will be dealing with these questions in the future.
C Michael Patton on 19 Mar 2008 at 4:33 pm #
Alden,
You said: “I think an historical context is important. Is our “new” understanding only nuanced, or is it in opposition to a historically orthodox understanding? At what point do we diverge enough to be considered heterodox, or heretical?”
That is a very good question. That is why I think that “maturation” is a good term, but not perfect. Somehow we have to see the continuity between our understanding of orthodoxy in its supposed mature form with that which has gone before it.
When orthodoxies are proposed that are antithetical to that which went before them (i.e. from hell is a literal eternal burning fire to there is not really a literal hell), then this amounts to change, not maturation. This would not be representative of progressive orthodoxy as I have presented it.
However, if someone were to go from Hell being an eternal literal fire to Hell being a eternal state of anguish away from God, this might qualify. The immature form would then be seen as just taking the Bible at its word, the more mature form (for the sake of argument) would be one that parallels its predecessor, yet deals with the exegesis of such revelation more accurately or comprehensively. Not saying this is the direction I go, but it serves as an example.
Brian Peterson on 19 Mar 2008 at 9:44 pm #
Michael,
Maybe I’m not understanding, but isn’t the idea of Progressive Revelation contrary to what is expressed in the New Testament (where doctrinal teaching was settled and deposited by the apostles)? If PR were true, are we not faced with the reality that the apostolic teachers did not faithfully fulfill their duty of passing on the faith to the next generation (some of the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers would reflect what the apostles taught them)? Given the culural setting, familiarity in language (Greek), and proximity in time to the apostles, wouldn’t the Ante-Nicene writers be good witnesses to what the Bible actually taught on doctrinal matters?
Thanks.
Brian
C Michael Patton on 20 Mar 2008 at 12:44 am #
Brian, progressive revelation has to do only with the progressive giving of the Scriptures (i.e. only special revelation). This ceased at the completion of the New Testament. What we are discussing is the progressive understanding of this revelation.
Your comment about the Ante-Nicene Fathers is good and a pivotal decision that must be made. It could be that the early church fathers understood more because they were in closer proximity to the NT authors, but I don’t think that this is necessarily justified. I believe that once revelation was complete, the church just began to understand this revelation as a canonical whole. The church, as an interpretive community, can have, according to the progressive orthodoxy view, a better understanding of the canonical whole because we have had 2000 years of spirit illuminated shoulders to stand upon. This does not mean that there are not mistakes or corruptions, but it assumes that in spite of these mistakes and corruptions the church, as a whole, continues to move progressively forward in our understanding and articulation of the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
Hope that makes sense.
BTW: You are in good company if you disagree with me and opt for a paleo-orthodox view (I explained this in my previous post).
pgardella on 20 Mar 2008 at 8:06 am #
Given the choices above, I would come closest to option number two. (That may stem from the fact that I’ve spent more time studying Oden’s systematic theology, than any others.)
My view is that the doctrines are present in the New Testament, or the beginnings of the doctrines are present. By looking back, we can see the beginning of these lines, perhaps starting in the Old Testament, perhaps in the Gospels, and perhaps in the epistles, and then they can be followed over the course of history. Some of the lines are very hard to follow in the early days (your example of baptism may fit here), as they are very faint, while others are very bold (the Resurrection). Had we been present in the early days, we probably would have missed these faint lines of thought, or focused on the others that were more important.
I’ll take an example that I use for the topic of Christian perfection (I’m from the Wesleyan tradition). If someone new were to move into my house at this time of the year, and walked into the backyard, they would see several trees with flowers. At that point, they may or may not be able to identify what type of trees these are. But a few weeks later, after the flowers have died, they would see the fruit beginning to grow. And shortly after that, they would know that this tree is an apple tree, that one a pear, and that one a cherry tree. They would see an apple and there would be no doubt that it’s an apple. But even then, it would only be several weeks later that they could tell that the apple was a Granny Smith.
After looking back, I can see that there are parts to three and four that I could agree with. I also have problems with three and four. It is perhaps the wording. I would add “lost, or ignored,” to number three.
Option four gives me some pause, as well. “Insufficient” may be the wrong word again. We can’t fall back to what we had before and say that it is sufficient for us; it isn’t. Since we know more now, or more precisely have the doctrine more fully understood, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. (I’d build this out more, but have to run to a meeting.)
Patrick
pgardella on 20 Mar 2008 at 8:25 am #
I want to change my last paragraph now that I’m back
Option four is a little better. We can’t fall back to what we had before and say that it is sufficient for us; it isn’t. Since we know more now, or more precisely have the doctrine more fully understood, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. We tell our children not to cross the road when they are young, and that is enough for them. Now that they are older, we can tell them to look both ways, watch out for cars, etc. I guess I just wince at the idea that doctrine is “insufficient”.
Patrick+
Jugulum on 20 Mar 2008 at 9:35 am #
“Given the choices above, I would come closest to option number two.
…
My view is that the doctrines are present in the New Testament, or the beginnings of the doctrines are present. “
Just to be sure you understand: The question here isn’t whether the doctrines are taught in the Bible–it’s whether or when or how much they were understood/articulated in the history of the church.
pgardella on 20 Mar 2008 at 9:53 am #
Jugulum,
Absolutely! I am referring to the understanding or expression of the doctrines. Perhaps I should have said “New Testament times”.
There’s just another example of how our initial expression may not be complete or completely articulated
Patrick
C Michael Patton on 20 Mar 2008 at 10:09 am #
Hey, our conversation is progressively developing!
Jugulum on 20 Mar 2008 at 11:17 am #
The question is, were bearish and Alden aware of the entire conversation in unarticulated form?
C Michael Patton on 20 Mar 2008 at 11:22 am #
I think so, well, in seed for anyway. It was not until this “conflict” “challenge” or “assessment” that this particular issue moved from a subconscious acceptance to a fully developed articulation that is now better understood by all. Nothing new, just newly understood.
Jugulum on 20 Mar 2008 at 12:35 pm #
I think that around comment #15 we should expect a significant reform from a thread of conversation that has gone off-topic recently.
*ahem*
C Michael Patton on 20 Mar 2008 at 12:54 pm #
And this we shall do…reformed and always reforming.
bearish on 20 Mar 2008 at 2:05 pm #
Jugulum, I don’t quite understand your reference to me. I apologize for whatever offense I committed.
Be that as it may, you said, “The question here isn’t whether the doctrines are taught in the Bible–it’s whether or when or how much they were understood/articulated in the history of the church.”
Inherent in the question you pose is the relationship between what is truth and the intent of the authors. The idea of progressive understanding of the bible means there was a time, stretching back to the the author, when people didn’t understand the truth, that the truth was revealed later or came to be understood later.
It seems to me that such thinking necessarily turns the Bible into some magical riddle book. Didn’t the authors understand what their words mean, and why would that not be dispositive?
One example is the rapture — if you take a few verses from Daniel and Matthew and Revelation, etc., you can stretch that into some brew of end times belief. Obviously, none of the authors of those books had any such idea, because the rapture doctine was created in the 19th century.
IMO, the truth of the books has to be related, at least in large part, to the ideas of the author. If not, then just about anybody can draw just about any meaning from them and nobody could object (unless you believe in papal decrees, which is another story).
C Michael Patton on 20 Mar 2008 at 2:23 pm #
Bearish, Jug was just having fun with me and the spirit of the post. Nothing personal I am sure.
You should think of things this way…
Do you have a perfect understaning of the faith? I am sure you would say “no.” Even though you have read the Bible and understand the basics, there are many areas you can grow in. Yes, it is all there, but it is only through life’s challenges, experiences, consultation and teaching from those who are studied in particular areas, and the illuminating work of the Holy Spirit that we come to a BETTER understanding of our faith.
The argument is not that people did not understand the faith in the early church, but that through time, this faith matures to a BETTER understanding. Just like with us.
There is no reason, in my opinion, to say that the early church understood everything perfecty. Accurately, yes, for the most part, and on the most important issues, but why would we need suppose that they had a perfect understanding of the faith and that the church could not grow in its understanding?
Remember, the canonical whole was not even fully recognized until many years after the apostles’ deaths. Sure, 80% of it was and all the essentials were there, but that is not what we are discussing here.
Jugulum on 20 Mar 2008 at 3:21 pm #
bearish,
‘Twas an extended allegory/metaphor/parallel bit of corny humor. CMP said our conversation was progressively developing… Like doctrine… So did the “Early Church” (you and Alden) understand the “theology” (conversation) perfectly, or in a less articulated form? And then around “1500″ (comment #15) there was “Reform”…
*ahem*
I did say it was corny.
Tim on 20 Mar 2008 at 3:58 pm #
Michael,
Supposing your model of “progressive orthodoxy” to be correct, I have a simple question for you.
Would you say that the Apostles were less orthodox than some modern theologians?
If your answer is “no,” then was the alleged immature orthodoxy you see in the early post-Apostolic Church the result of the Apostles’ failure to adequately disciple the early Church? It seems to me you are forced to take one of two positions: Either the Apostles themselves were less than “orthodox,” or they were failures in their primary task of “making disciples of all the nations.”
If your answer is “yes,” then on what basis do you judge your own orthodoxy? The New Testament was written by the Apostles. If “sola scriptura” is your claim, are you not forced to say that the Apostles did not have a mature understanding of what they themselves wrote in the New Testament? I mean, it seems very odd to me to suppose that the NT contains nuance, that modern theologians are able to detect, of which the writers themselves were oblivious. This would offer a completely new meaning to “inspiration” of the NT, that the Holy Spirit giuded the pens of the Apostles without their understanding. How would this work with their oral teaching?
I have one final question: Why should not we conclude that this proposed model is simply an attempt to justify the modern departure from the Apostolic Faith?
One more quick point. Are you aware that you argument is very similar to that of the early Gnostics, in order to justify their departure from the orthodoxy of the Apostolic Church? You might be interrested in reading Irenaeus’ and Tertullian’s answers to such arguments, and their theory for how “orthodoxy” is to be distinguished from heresy in their day.
Tim
bearish on 20 Mar 2008 at 4:00 pm #
Ah, corny, no matter.
Anyway, michael, I get your point, and understand the theory, but it isn’t satisfying.
The authority of the NT canon is based on the idea that the truth was passed on from Jesus to the apostles, who wrote books (or at least their associates) that accurately reflected the truth.
Other contemporary gospels were rejected because they were not authored by the apostles or direct associates and therefore were likely to contain heresy.
If we accept the progressive point, then that seems to nullify the whole reason why that particular set of books was decided to be God’s word, no?
I see Tim has already made the same point very well.
C Michael Patton on 20 Mar 2008 at 4:02 pm #
I would not say so since we are not expanding the context, just deepening our understanding.
C Michael Patton on 20 Mar 2008 at 4:25 pm #
Tim, I would never put it as the difference between being “less orthodox” or “more orthodox” for this is another way of saying unorthodox and orthodox. How can someone be less orthodox.
Put it in terms of a person. A person is not more a human or less a human. They are human or they are not. But there is varying levels of maturity. Both physical and mental capacities and articulations grow with age. It is the same thing with the Church. The church is orthodox, but it can grow in its understanding of orthodoxy.
The judge of the validity of this maturity is difficult…I have admitted to such. The question is Who is to judge which maturity represents TRUE maturity?
This is why we must continue to see the validity of the interplay between the early church and Scripture. Scripture is the ultimate judge, but who’s interpretation? Yours? Mine?
This is why we must go to the consensus of the church to find what the core essentials for orthodoxy is and then let them grow in a way that has agreement in continuity, not antithetical change.
Hope that helps.
Alden on 20 Mar 2008 at 4:25 pm #
You know, it’s nearly a full-time job keeping up with this blog…
Jugulum, I appreciate your allegory/metaphor/parallel. Very clever, actually…
C Michael Patton on 20 Mar 2008 at 4:26 pm #
“Why should not we conclude that this proposed model is simply an attempt to justify the modern departure from the Apostolic Faith?”
Because it is the same. Maturing is not a departure.
Jugulum on 20 Mar 2008 at 4:37 pm #
Tim,
Some good questions. I see some valid concerns there, though I don’t think they lead to the conclusions you make.
I have a couple questions for you in response to the following:
1.) Do you think that every apostle had an identical awareness/understanding of all truths taught in the Bible?
2.) Do you think that every apostle had a exhaustive understanding of all truths as taught in the Bible?
3.) If so, when did they acquire this knowledge? At Pentecost?
I assume you’ll say no, because Peter still had things to learn. So…If he died with it, when did he acquire it? Was his vision the last thing he had to learn? (If you think so, where do you get that idea?)
How would you attempt to defend your answer from Scripture? Where does the Bible tell us when they each acquired an exhaustive understanding, if you think they had it?
Note: I’m not suggesting that any of the apostles taught things that were not true. I’m not suggesting they wrote anything in Scripture that was not true–I believe in inerrancy. I’m suggesting that they didn’t each necessarily understand everything. They didn’t teach any error–that doesn’t mean they knew all truth (or even all truth contained in every book of the Bible.)
In response to the “two options” you presented, I would ask: Do you think that “making a disciple” means successfully giving that person all the knowledge you possess?
Tim on 20 Mar 2008 at 4:46 pm #
Michael,
Let me rephrase the question. Did the Apostles have a less mature understanding of their own writings than modern theologians?
Tim
Tim on 20 Mar 2008 at 4:52 pm #
Michael,
You said “Maturing is not departure,” yet “dispensationalism” and “Calvinism” clearly contradict the consensus of the Ante Nicene Church. The early Church universally taught free will, and opposed fatalism.
You mentioned the issue of baptism in your original work. Yet, the church has consistently linked baptism with the remission of sins from the post-Apostolic age until Zwingli. Do you consider Zwingli’s view to be a “maturing” of the former universal view of baptism’s linkage with the remission of sins?
Tim
Jugulum on 20 Mar 2008 at 4:53 pm #
P.S. To expand on “not suggesting that any of the apostles taught things that were not true”:
Compare with Peter’s sermon at Pentecost. He still had things to learn (his vision), but his preaching was inspired. Writing inspired Scripture doesn’t mean that he understood all truth–and another inspired author might understand something that Peter didn’t.
And to answer your rephrased question to Michael:
Suppose Peter taught an idea, and Paul taught an additional idea. We have both passages in front of us–and we might be able to see how the two passages interact, in a way that lets us articulate something better than is possible by only looking at one passage.
Tim on 20 Mar 2008 at 5:23 pm #
Hi Jugulum,
I am happy to answer your questions.
1.) Do you think that every apostle had an identical awareness/understanding of all truths taught in the Bible?
No, that is obvious from Acts. The Apostles were in a learning process. The Spirit guided them to maturity themselves, as they interacted with various situations and problems that arose in the early Church.
2.) Do you think that every apostle had a exhaustive understanding of all truths as taught in the Bible?
I believe that all of the Aposltes eventually had a vastly superior knowledge of the Biblical truths than any modern theologian will ever have, AND, that they deposited this mature pristine Faith in the local churches they founded.
When Jesus promised the Apostles the Spirit upon His departure, He said that He would lead THEM into “all truth” (not modern theologians).
I believe that discovering the truth requires objective hermeneutics, and should be suplimented with an historical investigation of the earliest oral traditions (to aide in confirming our exegesis of Scripture). I believe that the earliest teaching is the purest teaching, and that any refinement (call it maturing or development) is a departure from the “faith once for all delivered to the saints.” That means, any teaching that cannot be historically traced to the early Church is suspect.
3.) If so, when did they acquire this knowledge? At Pentecost?
They aquired the mature teaching in the following ways:
a. Jesus taught them personally for three years, much of which has not been recorded in Scripture.
b. After His resurrection, Jesus instructed them directly from the OT Scriptures (opening their understanding), revealing EVERYTHING about Himself from EVERY OT book (Luke 24:27).
c. He followed this with 40 days of intense teaching of “things concerning the Kingdom of God.”
d. The Spirit was given to the Apostles to complete their training (and refresh their memories about Jesus prior teaching) over the rest of their lifetimes, as they engaged in the task of discipleship.
Regarding Peter, or any other single Apostle, the Spirit guided them in different ways under different circumstances. However, when they wrote the NT documents, they fully understood what they wrote. Any nuance one claims to see in a NT book was either well known by the writer, or else it is a figment of the imagination of the interpreter.
As to how I would defend my position from Scripture, it is simply this: Jude considered the Apostolic Faith to be fully established and deposited within the Apostolic local churches. They were to vigerously defend it, not refine it, something impossible to do if they did not already have a mature understanding. Paul’s teaching to the Ephesian Elders contained “the whole counsel of God.” Elders were required to have a mature understanding of the Apostolic Faith in order to refute error. Paul insructed his protege Timothy to mentor others just as Paul had mentored him.
Paul DID forsee a “maturity” process within the church. Paul mentioned it in Eph. 4, and elsewhere. But, it was confined to the Apostolic age, not something to continue beyond the original Apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers that Jesus Himself gave to the church.
As to what it means to “make disciples,” Jesus answered that. It includes “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you.” That would include all of Jesus oral teaching to them during His public ministry, what He taught them from the OT Scriptures the day of His resurrection, and what He taught them in the 40 days before His ascension.
Tim
Tim on 20 Mar 2008 at 5:53 pm #
Hi Jugulum,
You wrote: “Suppose Peter taught an idea, and Paul taught an additional idea. We have both passages in front of us–and we might be able to see how the two passages interact, in a way that lets us articulate something better than is possible by only looking at one passage.”
You seem to forget that the Apostles themselves interacted with each other’s writings (see esp. 2 Pet. 3:14-18), and the early Church had both of the hypothetical passages you propose before them also. Further, I think it is the height of arrogance to suppose that modern theologians can interpret the writings of the Apostles better then the early church, when the early Church was saturated in the oral teaching of the Apostles, heard a plethora of “prophetic” utterances given through the gifts, and shared a common culture and language between writer/speaker and reader/hearer.
Paul’s time discipling the Ephesian elders was summed up by him: “For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.” Acts 20:27 NASU. Yet, it seems that modern dispensationalists have discovered the “whole purpose of God” a bit more clearly than the Ephesian elders understood it.
Paul spent 2 years in Rome, in his own hired house, “preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.” What modern theologian has the benefit of two years of daily sitting at the feet of Paul? We have none of these things available to us as a context in which to interpret the Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures are but fragmentary evidence of the life’s work of the Apostles of Christ. Their primary work was not writing the NT for the sake of theologians 2000 years in the future. It was the hands on training of the next generation of leaders of the local churches.
Tim
Jugulum on 20 Mar 2008 at 6:20 pm #
Tim,
A few days ago, I said, “We should be quicker to question ourselves than to question historically-established understandings.” And, “Questioning established understandings should only be done with fear and trembling.”
I do agree that the modern interpreter should not be in ignorance of the early church’s view–or rather, views. Their proximity to the apostles, etc. does add weight to their voices. And I also believe that if you come up with an idea/interpretation that’s novel in the history of the church, it’s most likely wrong.
Where I hesitate to follow you is in the conclusion that refinement of articulation & understanding cannot occur. My understanding of the history of the articulation of the doctrine of the Trinity, for example, does not allow it. Where in the earliest writings of the Church is the evidence of Nicene-clarity of articulation on that point? The clarity of articulation with which your own church speaks in its statement of beliefs?
For that matter, their statement on the person of Jesus Christ is rather strongly Chalcedonian:
How do you approach such articulations? Do you believe that we do have good evidence that the early church clearly articulated those points?
Tim on 20 Mar 2008 at 7:26 pm #
Jugulum,
“Articulation” and “maturity” are very different concepts. I agree that later writers may find ways of expressing ideas better and clearer than earlier writers. But, this does not indicate advancement in understanding (as is suggested by “maturity” of doctrine). It only involves better communication skills.
As to the Trinity, Tertullian summed it up just fine in the second century, long before Nicea.
Tim
Tim on 20 Mar 2008 at 7:35 pm #
Tertullian’s “Against Praxaeus” handles the theology of the Trinity quite adequately, IMO.
Tim
Tim on 20 Mar 2008 at 8:18 pm #
One more thing. The Nicene creed offered nothing that was not already stated and believed by earlier writers. The creeds were a means of keeping the church UNITED (taking the consensus vew and making it the “official” view). They in no way refined the doctrine of the Godhead. They simply eliminated diverse views. They summarized, in a concise way, what had already been well established and handed down.
If any of the creeds offer something that is new and novel, then that thing is suspect, IMO.
Tim
Chris on 24 Mar 2008 at 9:32 pm #
Michael, I asked you how Progressive Orthodoxy would avoid embracing Eastern Orthodoxy, and you said it wouldn’t, but it would move beyond it.
But the Orthodoxy of the first thousand years was that there was One Church, and that orthodoxy was a development within that communion.
So either you don’t believe in progressive orthodoxy at all, or you would have to believe in orthodox ecclesiology as progressive orthodoxy, which just makes you eastern orthodox, or something like it.
C Michael Patton on 24 Mar 2008 at 9:38 pm #
I would agree with this. There is one true church, but the development here is that this one true Church find many expressions. These expressions may go by different names, but they are all still part of the one true Church. This church is both visible and invisible.
Chris on 25 Mar 2008 at 4:47 am #
Uh, but the orthodoxy of the first thousand years doesn’t believe in arbitrary numbers of expressions, it believes in one Church with visible communion, lists of diptychs, apostolic succession, the sacrament of holy orders, etc etc.
Your idea of multiple expressions under different names in an invisible church would have been considered clearly heterodox by the church of the first millenium.
You aren’t going beyond previous orthodoxy, you are going contrary to it. You can’t talk about a Progressive orthodoxy that doubles back and contradicts previous orthodoxy, and still have something worthwhile.
Maybe you should rename this pick and choose orthodoxy, or selective orthodoxy. I’m not understanding this concept at all.