How Many Beliefs Can One Abandon and Still be Called Christian?
This is a question that I received from one of our readers here on Parchment and Pen. It is a good question that cannot be answered easily.
    You mentioned in this blog the conversation you had with a Pastor regarding the blessing of same sex marriages. This is an issue that the denomination (Episcopal) that I attend is struggling with. We had a Parish discussion about this last year with about 25-30 out of 200 active members voicing their opinion. Myself and a few others were in the minority against blessing these relationships. I came to this conclusion after researching all the known biblical passages regarding this issue, which I plainly read as viewing homosexual activity as sin. Therefore this is not behavior we should be celebrating. I also read several scholarly papers for and against and was not persuaded by the arguments for.
   I guess my question for you or anyone else who wants to comment is at what point has one crossed the line in terms of throwing out orthodox teaching. I’ve followed your discussion on the emerging Church with the charts in terms of essential beliefs for salvation, essential beliefs for orthodoxy. How many orthodox beliefs/doctrines can you abandon and still call yourself a Christian?Â
The reader was not asking for an actual number. It cannot be answered with a number. One cannot say everyone gets to abandon five traditional Christian beliefs, but once they throw overboard that sixth one, they also throw overboard their right to be called “Christian.” It has more to do with the types of beliefs they are abandoning.
There are a lot of beliefs being abandoned today as people question “established” traditional Christianity.
Here are some big ones:
- Can one abandon the idea of God’s eternality as openness theologians do, believing that God is in a give and take relationship with mankind and does not know the future with certainty?
- Can one say that the resurrection has already happened like the preterists do?
- Can one abandon the traditional Christian belief about the sinfulness of homosexuality and ordain homosexual ministers as many mainline churches are doing as well as bless same-sex relationships?
- Can one abandon the historic belief that abortion is wrong as many Christians are doing?
- Can one abandon belief in the exclusivity of the Gospel?
My first thoughts are that one cannot abandon these doctrines and beliefs and remain within the confines of orthodox Christianity with regard to these particular issues.
Christianity is first and foremost about who you say Christ is and what you have done with him. To be Christian means that Christ is your savior and God and you have called upon him to have mercy on you based upon what he did on the cross.
These other issues, while very important, do not form the bedrock of what being a Christian means.
- The openness theologian, from my perspective, does not have a biblical view of God’s essential nature. But this alone does not mean that he or she is not or cannot be called Christian. They simply don’t have a Christian view of God’s essential nature.
- The preterist falls outside of the bonds of Christian eschatology, but this does not mean that they cannot be called Christian. Their eschatology is simply not representative of Christianity.
- The church that ordains homosexuals has compromised their morals and their ecclesiology (i.e. qualifications for leadership in a church setting) from a historic Christian standpoint. Because this issue is an ecclesiological issue, it is my conviction that the Church itself cannot be called Christian, while the members who believe such can still be called Christian—albeit Christians with an unchristian ecclesiology with regards to the qualifications for leadership.
- The Christian who abandons the traditional Christian belief that abortion is wrong is unChristian with regards to their anthropology—their view of man and human dignity. This, as well, does not mean that they themselves cannot be called Christian, simply that their belief about the unborn is unorthodox.
- The exclusivity of the Gospel has to do with the message of the Gospel, not the essence of salvation. The question is not Is Christ necessary for salvation?, but is knowledge of Christ (i.e. the Gospel message) necessary for salvation. This is more tricky since we have not only those who have not heard the Gospel message (i.e. the unevangelized), but also those who are physically unable to hear the Gospel message (e.g. the unborn, mentally unable, etc.). I would say that this issue is an open debate and good Christians throughout Church history have disagreed. Therefore, I believe that one is within Christian orthodoxy whichever side they come down on this issue so long as the question is not concerning the essentiality of the atonement, but the essentiality of knowledge of the atonement.
But this does not necessarily settle the issue. It only reveals my presuppositions.
Most of those who would deny a traditional Christian doctrine do so believing that they are reading the Bible more faithfully than those who have gone before them. In other words, they are not always denying the truthfulness of Scripture, but the truthfulness of “orthodoxy” as defined by historic Christianity. In their mind, they are restoring the true intent and teachings of Scripture by abandoning the views of the historic Christian faith.
To these the phrase “historic Christian faith” is a power play that may confine truth to the consensus of the masses. Therefore, terms like “orthodoxy,” “traditional,” and “heretic” are not only unhelpful, but quite destructive. They believe themselves not to be searching for “orthodox” Christianity, but biblical Christianity. They would claim the lineage of Martin Luther who went against the “orthodoxy” of his day to reclaim a lost Christianity. As well, although they would be less comfortable with the association, they would be in the line of the Anabaptists and restorationist churches of the nineteenth century such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Disciples of Christ.
For what it is worth, these renegades, revolutionaries, and reformers are those in the both the heroes and villains section of Christianity.
This, again, speaks to my presupposition in answering the questions above—the importance of the Church as a regulating body that defines Christianity by regulating how the Bible is to be understood. When we talk about the “historic Christian faith” do we mean that this undefined body—this errant spiritual entity—has the ability to define the boundaries of Christianity?
Most ill-informed Protestants have a catch 22. They feel that they are supposed to approach these and other issues shod with only the Bible. Yet others appeal to the Bible and find beliefs that are against historic Christianity, these ill-informed Protestants end up appealing to tradition. Maybe not consciously, but subconsciously they say “The church has never had such a belief.” “The Church has never allowed the ordaining of homosexuals.” “The church has always stood against abortion.”
Yet, historic magisterial Protestantism has always had a great respect for tradition. No, it is not just that we like tradition or are fond of its beauty, but we actually see the hand of God regulating the church. We see the hand of God establishing orthodoxy. When people begin to abandon traditional Christianity in favor of novel ideas, we say you can’t do this because the Bible does not allow. How do we know the Bible does not allow it? Because the history of the church, the body of Christ, those to whom the Gospel was entrusted, those from whom we receive our lineage, those upon whose shoulders we stand have not allowed it.
Yes, this regulation is an imperfect regulation. The Bible is the only perfect regulator. It is the norma mormans sed non normata (”norm that norms by is not normed”). But, at the same time, this norm must be read by imperfect people.
“Evangelicals have historical amnesia.” This is what Eastern Orthodox theologian Dr. Bradley Nassif said when I asked him what he believed to be the biggest problem in the evangelical church to be. I believe he may be right. I think that this historical amnesia is not so much that Evangelicals do not know history (although these is a lot of that), but that Evangelicals do not respect history. This is not something that we should be proud of.
Therefore, the question How many beliefs can one abandon and still be called Christian? must be answered Biblically and historically. For we cannot expect to answer it biblically until we have confided in those who have gone before us. Right or wrong, they must be respected and feared as part of the body of Christ. To fail to do so is not only unbiblical, but, from my point of view, evidences the influence of the modern ideal of individualism and resulting arrogance.
This does not answer all the questions, but it may give us a starting place to justify our approach.
 How would you answer this reader’s question?
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- How Many Beliefs Can One Abandon and Still be Called Christian?
- An Emerging Understanding of “Orthodox” - Part 3: The Maturing of Orthodoxy
- Are You Orthodox or Heretic?
- Would the Real Emerging Please Stand Up? Part 2 - What is Orthodoxy?
- An Emerging Understanding of “Orthodox” - Part 2: Six Views of Orthodoxy

Jugulum on 11 Mar 2008 at 5:36 pm #
“How many orthodox beliefs/doctrines can you abandon and still call yourself a Christian?”
42?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 11 Mar 2008 at 6:10 pm #
“How Many Beliefs Can One Abandon and Still be Called Christian?â€
On a related note, what if people who profess to be Christians simply state that they are humbly uncertain about many dogmatic, “historically orthodox” assertions, and as such, any previous dogma that was previously held was arrogantly presumptuous and over-reaching?
I asked Dan Wallace on a prior thread: “What do you think of postmodern/emergent teaching that either directly or indirectly obscures, obfuscates, and/or creates doubt and uncertainty about your non-negotiable biblical doctrines (whatever they may be)?
Would you consider that to be true teaching or to be false teaching since this postmodern/emerging movement could and probably does affect the genuine acceptance of your chosen non-negotiable doctrines (whatever they may be)?
Jugulum on 11 Mar 2008 at 6:35 pm #
“On a related note, what if people who profess to be Christians simply state that they are humbly uncertain”
Remember to distinguish between those who are uncertain-but-studying, and those who are intractably insistent that answers are unachievable.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 11 Mar 2008 at 7:03 pm #
Thanks for the clarification Jugulum.
Restating: “On a related note, what if people who profess to be Christians simply state that they are humbly uncertain, yet who are also intractably insistent that answers are unachievable with respect to many dogmatic, “historically orthodox†assertions, and as such, any previous dogma that was previously held was arrogantly presumptuous and over-reaching?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 11 Mar 2008 at 7:10 pm #
CMP: “To be Christian means that Christ is your savior and God and you have called upon him to have mercy on you based upon what he did on the cross.“
Hmmmmmm……….
Well, we’ll all find out on Judgment Day, won’t we!
Tim with a latin "I" on 11 Mar 2008 at 7:12 pm #
Wow, upon first reading the comments on the blog, I think I came close to misreading. It was mainly in the points where you explain your position on those first questions you ask. Upon a second read however, I think I see what you are getting at. For example, when you say about a homosexual church could not be considered Christian, for the mere practice of homosexuality is not a grey issue in the Bible and to continue living and practicing sin is not a characteristic of a Son of God. But you say that the NON-PRACTICING person that merely says others can be homosexual Christians would simply have bad ecclesiology, but would still be saved. I agree.
This is actually a topic me and my wife stared talking about over lunch, and I don’t even think we scratched the surface. I think the big dividing line is between those who practice, and those who, not practicing, simply have not studied enough to have an informed view of the issue. Also, not having studied while practicing (which I would say constitute the majority of cases) (i.e. homosexuality) is not excusable either, as the practice of sin in ignorance describes the majority of Christians before they trusted in Christ.
I don’t know if that cleared anything up, but that was definitely a big discovery for me!
Just my personal opinion over the question posted at the beginning, I think a common (and popular) thing to do today is to lick your finger and stick it in the wind doctrinally. Churches, for fear of being accepted or being too judgemental and having dividing lines do just what was described above, and go with what the masses want. The masses are not always correct. Nor are the masses always wrong, but the masses are not our guide! The Bible is our guide. With stuff like homosexuality, I don’t know how unstudied you would have to be to come to that conclusion (and I don’t say that to be mean, but that is one of the things that is very clear in the Bible), but personally, I would stay away from a Church like that, not because I think the people that believe that (that do not practice) cannot be Christians, but I want to align myself with the most correct church I can find.
I know I have not answered the question of what doctrines are necesarry to be considered a Christian, but honestly that is more than I want to write, and I need to study some more on it first. I am interested to hear what everyone else has to say!
C Michael Patton on 11 Mar 2008 at 7:12 pm #
Those are good questions. There may be three types:
Type 1:
I am uncertian about Christ’s deity…I am still looking into it.
I have not decided about the Trinity.
Type 2:
We cannot be certian if Christ was God.
We cannot know whether God exists in Trinity.
Type 3:
I am struggling with Christ’s divinity.
I have lingering doubts about the doctrine of the Trinity.
Jugulum on 11 Mar 2008 at 7:19 pm #
And the implications of being each of the three types would be different for new/immature Christians and for older/ostensibly-mature Christians.
cf. Heb. 5:11-14
There’s an expectation that we move on from milk to solid food–”though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God.”
Rick C. on 11 Mar 2008 at 9:27 pm #
A church, such as the ECUSA, that teaches “homosexual marriage” is marriage, and blesses these (so-called) “marriages” and same-sex unions, is promoting immorality and going against the Law, the Prophets, Jesus, and the Apostles.
The ordination of active homosexuals reveals the primary fault of their ecclesiology—people living in sin are not to be leaders in the church. Paul wrote about those who “not only continue to do these very [sinful] things but also approve of those who practice them” (Romans 1:32b, NIV).
This isn’t to say that members of such a denomination are not Christians as defined by the Bible. Micheal’s reader has shown him-or-herself to be a biblical Christian by the discernment revealed in their statements. Whether or not to continue in such a denomination has been the question for Bible-believing (”theologically conservative”) Christians who have been in these denominations since before these acts of apostasy. Many have left for other denominations, while others are staying in the hope that some kind of resolution or reversal will happen. Personally, if I were in this situation I would find it very difficult, if not impossible, to “stay under a leadership” that openly and blatantly rejects biblical teaching.
No one who approves of, and promotes, homosexual practice, can be called a “Christian” in the biblical sense of meaning (Christians, as defined by the Bible, do none of these things).
Whether they, as individuals, have become reprobate is something only God knows. This is why I try to teach them what the Scriptures say on these things, and pray that God may grant them a change of mind (”repentance”).
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Mar 2008 at 12:26 am #
“How Many Beliefs Can One Abandon and Still be Called Christian?â€
It matters who’s calling you a “Christian”. Is it yourself? Is it others? Or is it God?
Let’s turn to Scripture to see what the Author of our Salvation says.
Old Testament
Exodus 15:26, “And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.”
Exodus 24:3, “And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.”
Leviticus 19:37, “Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.”
Leviticus 20:22, “Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.”
Leviticus 26:16, 17, “And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.”
Deuteronomy 5:31, “But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.”
Deuteronomy 6:2, “That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.”
Deuteronomy 11:32 And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day.
Deuteronomy 12:32, “What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”
Deuteronomy 17:19, “And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them.”
Deuteronomy 28:15. “But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee.”
Deuteronomy 29:29, “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.”
Deuteronomy 30:8, “And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.”
Deuteronomy 31:5, “And the LORD shall give them up before your face, that ye may do unto them according unto all the commandments which I have commanded you.”
Deuteronomy 31:12, “Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:”
Joshua 22:5, “But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
1 Kings 8:58, “That he may incline our hearts unto him, to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and his statutes, and his judgments, which he commanded our fathers.”
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Mar 2008 at 12:27 am #
1 Kings 9:4, “And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments.”
1 Kings 11:38, “And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.”
2 Kings 17:13, “Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.”
2 Chronicles 7:17, “And as for thee, if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments.”
Ezra 7:23, “Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?”
Nehemiah 10:29, “They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God’s law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes.”
Psalm 119:6, “Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.”
Ezekiel 18:21, “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”
New Testament
Matthew 4:4, “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”
Matthew 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.”
Luke 1:6, “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.”
Galatians 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
Leslie on 12 Mar 2008 at 6:39 am #
Hi Michael:
Thank you for the post. I enjoyed it … it got me thinking more seriously on the subject.
Now, if I may ask you, what is your take on the inclusive/exclusive issue of the Gopsel message? I personally believe that one has to have conscious knowledge of Christ/atonement to be a Christian. Of course, some Christians think otherwise. Even Dr. Billy Graham at one time said that man do not need to consciously know Christ to be in God’s family. (Of course, he retracted his statement sometime later). I have read Dr. Ramesh Richard’s strong rebuttal on Inclusivism. What is your take, Michael?
Thanks!
kyle on 12 Mar 2008 at 8:08 am #
Michael,
Very thought provoking. I am not sure, however, I understand what you are saying when you proclaim “the church itself cannot be called Christian, while the members who believe such can still be called Christian.” I just do not know what this means. Are you saying that engaging in the act of homosexuality causes one not to be a Christian, but condoning it is ok? I am lost here.
Describing “abortion” and “homosexuality” as a “traditional Christian belief” I think is a misnomer. Matters of tradition (order or worship, where to worship, etc. etc.) are different from matters over which God has plainly provided for in his Word. I can see the problem on abortion simply because some people quibble with when life actually begins. I don’t think issue is taken with the plain biblical teaching that killing is wrong — but rather a debate over the traditional belief of when life starts. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is not subject to debate (and I am talking about the open practice of it — seeing it as an available lifestyle; not one who has homosexual desires, who sees such conduct as sin, but falls back in over and over. I have my own sins that I cannot conquer. Slipping does not cause you to “not be” a Christian. Falling probably does). Nevertheless, I do not think we can say that the sin of homosexuality is a matter of traditional belief (assuming that is what you are saying).
In the end, I am really not smart enough to follow your post. If you say that you can engage in, or even countenance (in your church) practicing homosexual conduct — persons who deny it is sin — and still be a Christian, then I wonder what in this world would ever stop you from being a Christian. Maybe all of this stems from a Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist theology. If I am the only one that just doesn’t get it (and I truly do not), then do not waste your time answering this. But I would like to know a little more clearly what you are advocating. Can you be a practicing homosexual and be a Christian? Can you support active homosexuality within the church, and be a Christian? Thanks Michael or anyone else who can speak to this.
Tim with a latin "I" on 12 Mar 2008 at 11:45 am #
Kyle,
I don’t know if this is the direction that CMP was going, but this is what I understood from his writing in reguard to you questions:
1.Can you be a practicing homosexual and be a Christian?
2.Can you support active homosexuality within the church, and be a Christian?
As to the first, no, I don’t think you can be a practicing homosexual and be a Christian. That is NOT a grey or mysterious topic in the Bible. Our personal practice and actions are very necesarry in justification (though not in salvation) and is necesary as a result of a saving faith. See James. I do not advocate that works are necessary for salvation. One cannot continue actively enjoying in sin as a Christian. There should be a struggle against that homosexual tendency.
The second is more what the blog was about in my opinion. I would say, yes, you could support (erroneously) homosexuality within the church and not be practicing homosexuality yourself. While I would not attend such a church, someone who does I don’t think (and the way I read, the blog agrees) could be classified as a non-christian based on that. That is to say, our salvation is NOT dependent on our opinion of homosexuality.
Well, that is my take on what CMP wrote. I would, however, like to hear what CMP himself has to say…..
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Mar 2008 at 11:59 am #
How Many Beliefs Can One Abandon and Still be Called Christian?
This question sends alarm bells ringing in my theological fire station. The question suggests to me that the questioner is asking: “What’s the absolute bare minimum of “beliefs” that I must hold and still be heavenly-safe?”
A question which basically says, “Once I know the bare minimum, then I don’t have to concern myself so much with these other “secondary” matters. Those other “secondary” beliefs, commandments, and doctrines can now be a matter of practical and spiritual indifference for me.”
And this person’s attitude is something that a faithful disciple of Christ would say in bearing his/her cross????
Puh-leeeze. Who are you kidding?
Jugulum on 12 Mar 2008 at 12:08 pm #
Tim,
“Practicing homosexual” might not be the best way to say it. There’s a lot of room for confusion. If we say, “a practicing homosexual cannot be a Christian,” someone will ask, “Can a practicing pornography user be a Christian?” Simply changing the sin being asked about shouldn’t change the answer.
As you say, the important point is that there will be a struggle there, if the person is really a Christian. “Practicing” quite doesn’t capture that. (Someone struggling with pornography might be “practicing”.)
Perhaps say, “An unrepentant, contented, practicing homosexual is not a Christian.” Because if you have the Holy Spirit in you, he will convict you of sin–you can’t be contentedly unrepentant in your sin.
rick on 12 Mar 2008 at 12:22 pm #
This brought to mind the Christianity Today article discussing a study in regards to 5 types of “Christians”:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2007/004/1.19.html
Rick C. on 12 Mar 2008 at 12:47 pm #
History has something to show us here: Before the 1960s no group or denomination had questioned if homosexual practice and abortion are sinful. In the 70s, with Roe V. Wade (the legalization of abortion) and the American Psychological Association’s de-classifying homosexuality as a mental disorder, churches that had held traditional values up to this point began to change their beliefs on morality. Denominations that have, since, abandoned the traditional beliefs of historic Christianity on these matters of morality (sin) have become “unorthodox” in that they have left the Scriptures behind as the sole guide for moral standards. In this sense, have separated themselves from the larger Body of Christ (the historic Church). So they have a kind of “dual unorthodoxy” by rejecting biblical teaching and by severing themselves from the rest of Christianity.
If I read them right, Michael’s P&P reader was asking: What historic beliefs can individuals abandon with regard to (1) salvation, and (2) “orthodoxy” and still be a Christian?
If “orthodoxy” is understood as “having correct opinion(s)” on doctrinal matters, further clarification is needed on what doctrines we are talking about. But actually, since soteriology is the doctrine of salvation, we can probably fuse the P&P reader’s questions into one: “What correct opinions must one retain in order to be Christian?” This question, of course, presumes that correct opinions were held at one time. And it would be another question to ask about those who haven’t, as of yet, developed opinions on doctrines and who, perhaps, are simply unfamiliar with them.
“The essentials and non-essentials” of Christian beliefs is a phrase we immediately recognize. But how these are defined differs among Christian groups and can get very tricky and confusing. Sometimes it’s like “having the correct opinion taken from a various amount differing opinions” which brings me to my next thought: How can we sort all of this out?
The “essentials,” as I see it, have two sources and, thus, are of two kinds and are different in their scope. The first source, or kind of essential teachings, are given in the Scriptures themselves: What was actually taught by the Apostles in their historical setting. This was the kergma or proclamation of the gospel along with all of the other essential Apostolic teachings they gave in their context or setting.
The second type of “essentials” are Post-Apostolic. I immediately think of the doctrine of the trinity here. Though the New Testament can be said to be compatible with this doctrine, it wasn’t explicity taught by the Apostles. In their time, there didn’t appear to be a need to explain the godhead further than what we find in
their writings. But by the fourth century, the nature of Christ had long been debated in a series of mini-debates on quite a few controversial topics. This being so, the Early Fathers were put into a position of having to define who Christ was within their more philosophical Gentile context (as contrasted with the Apostles, were who Jews that didn’t see “God” in these more philosophical ways).
Tim with a latin "I" on 12 Mar 2008 at 12:51 pm #
Thank you for clarifying that Jugulum. I didn’t realize that was unclear. In effect and context, that is what I meant by practicing - unrepentant and contented.
Rick C. on 12 Mar 2008 at 1:02 pm #
(I’ve exceeded my word limit, sorry. Here’s the rest of my post).
Before the Council of Nicaea (325), “the talk of the town,” so to speak was: Does Christ have the same-essence or a similar-essence as God the Father? And though some had strong opinions on this before the Council made its decisions, one question to ask is: Who was “orthodox” before the Council? “The victors write the history,” as we’ve heard it said. Some interpret the Council’s verdict to mean the Arians were never truly Christians. While this is one possibility, I doubt that people who otherwise loved the Lord (such as Arius himself), and who were not taught Athanatius’ views can be deemed as eternally lost. Whole regions believed Arian doctrine up till the Council and many of the people living there probably didn’t know that an alternative belief existed till the Council was over. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not saying Arian belief is correct. I’m just pointing out the historical differences on what was considered essential orthodox doctrine (keeping in mind the Apostles never faced the issue about Christ’s nature in terms of its ’similarity or sameness’ to God the Father. If it were an issue for them during their times, they certainly would have written about it).
I believe a person can hear the gospel, believe (become a Christian), while not knowing what the doctrine of the trinity is: They may have never heard of it. Yet within the gospel message itself, the divinity of Jesus is pointed to—even when the gospel is presented in its most easy to understand and basic ways. If “God has raised him from the dead” and Christ is now in heaven with Him, Jesus is divine (cf. Romans 10:9-10). Believing this is essential to come into salvation in accordance with “Apostolic essentials.” But a knowledge about the trinity doctrine isn’t essential to come into salvation.
It’s another question to ask about: If one becomes a Christian, learns about and accepts the doctrine of the trinity, and then, rejects it. We would have to ask: What were their reasons for abandoning it? And what other belief do they now have? They may be confused. Or they may have joined a sect that is not only against the doctrine trinity, but believes they are the only true church! Confusion or “searching for the right beliefs” is one thing. Sectarianism and condemnation of all groups outside of the home-group is quite another…(which links-back to my first paragraphs on how some groups have separated themselves from the larger Church).
I may have more on “non-essentials” later. Sorry about the very long post…I wasn’t paying attention!
Jugulum on 12 Mar 2008 at 1:38 pm #
Tim,
Perhaps it wasn’t unclear to most people.
I thought clarification would help because I can imagine a “practicing” homosexual who’s internally wrestling…Beginning to experience conviction…But still with an external appearance of “practicing”. (A new believer in particular might look like that.) So I wanted to ensure that anyone reading “practicing homosexual” would properly connect your words with the internal conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Mar 2008 at 1:45 pm #
1.Can you be a practicing, unrepentant homosexual and be a Christian?
What does Scripture say?
2.Can you support active homosexuality within the church, and be a Christian?
James 3:1 speaks to church leaders and teachers.
The Book of Revelations speaks to churches that tacitly affirm and tolerate sin in their community of believers.
JFrances on 12 Mar 2008 at 2:04 pm #
“‘What correct opinions must one retain in order to be Christian?’†This question, of course, presumes that correct opinions were held at one time. And it would be another question to ask about those who haven’t, as of yet, developed opinions on doctrines and who, perhaps, are simply unfamiliar with them.”
These questions and the whole topic of this post make me think of the oft-controversial Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. Essentially, we are considering the same issues. How far can one get from right opinions/orthodoxy/visible, articulated doctrines before one is apart from Christianity, and thusly Christ?
This a really good line of thought! In fact, the extensions of these questions on orthodoxy and inclusion/exclusion are pointedly addressed, with much discussion and controversy, in the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium (especially Chapter 2: The People of God http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html ).
In this document, there is particular interest in how we, as the people of God (that is, all Christians), consider those who we would identify as holding opinions other than orthodox. Apart from being part of a Roman Catholic doctrinal pronouncemnt, I wonder how these particular assessements would be accepted within the Evangelical/Emergent community at large?
“The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. . .They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. . . Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. . .”
kyle on 12 Mar 2008 at 3:26 pm #
Tim with a Latin “I”,
Thanks for the response. I was afraid this is what the post was saying. I have a hard time believing that it is ok to support sin in someone’s life. Nevertheless, I did go back and read I Corinthians 5 and can point to no absolute passage defending my belief, however, it does appear that the congregation was being called upon to right a wrong. In other words, I am not certain that if an individual continued to support that conduct, he or she would continue to be a Christian. TUAD wrote James 3:1, but my question was not simply referring to teachers or church leaders.
If you take the position that one can remain a Christian while at the same time supporting (and I say support because when you do nothing, then you enable and support such conduct) knowing and willful sin, what is the justification for that position? Is there a point at which you will no longer be a Christian? Do you have an obligation to your willfully sinning brother, the abrogation of which will lead to your own fall (or prove that you were never one of the elect)?
Thanks for the exchange. This is a hard one for me.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Mar 2008 at 3:59 pm #
Kyle thoughtfully asks: “If you take the position that one can remain a Christian while at the same time supporting (and I say support because when you do nothing, then you enable and support such conduct) knowing and willful sin, what is the justification for that position?”
I honestly don’t see any justification.
Good question.
Of course, people will disagree on what constitutes a sin. For example, I think that in the overwhelming majority of cases, abortion is a sin.
But then I run into comments like this, from a fellow named Dan who wrote: “I am a Christian and I support abortion.”
I believe he wrote that because he doesn’t think abortion is a sin.
Likewise, there are some Christians who don’t think same-sex behavior is a sin. Since they don’t think it’s a sin, then that’s how they affirm same-sex behavior in their church.
I think your questions are tangentially touching upon the topic of 2 degrees of separation. One degree is separating from active, unrepentant Same-Sex Christians. The second degree is separating from those who advocate, endorse, or affirm that same-sex behavior is not a sin for Christians. The second degree is separating from false teachers.
These false teachers may not practice the sin in question, but they teach and affirm the behavior, and will say that the behavior is not a sin contra the clear teachings of Scripture.
Robert Jimenez on 12 Mar 2008 at 4:41 pm #
Hello Michael,
Great topic! This is one of the very subjects that I am planning on doing a one day seminar at my church. I am glad that you have started the topic.
I just started to do research on this. Do you have any book recommendations that deal with this topic? I would greatly appreciate any recommendation you can make.
God Bless!
C Michael Patton on 12 Mar 2008 at 4:47 pm #
Robert, thanks. What specific topic are you referring to. This thread has morphed into other topics that are related to the post, but this post has more to do with how we define orthodoxy.
Rick C. on 12 Mar 2008 at 6:30 pm #
JFrances,
Since you quoted me and asked what evangelical/emergent opinions are (though I don’t identify myself as emergent or emerging, and am always careful to qualify I’m a “theologically conservative evangelical” any time I say I’m evangelical, which is rare due to the confusion about what the term really means), I’d say:
The first paragraph reveals that Vatican II recognized that even non-Catholics can be genuinely Christian (which was a good thing). I found this somewhat humorous as it reminded me of when Peter saw that salvation had been “granted to even to the Gentiles” (Acts 10:34-35, 47; 15:8-9) Gentiles? and Protestants? are Christians? Who’d a thunk it?
The second paragraph speaks accurately about the ‘Fatherhood of God over all humanity’ in a general way. The rest, which seemed to hint at the possibility of salvation for those who have not heard the gospel, while interesting, goes beyond what is stated in Scripture. Why I say this is, none of the Apostles are on record as entertaining the idea that salvation is possible to those who haven’t heard the gospel. First, had they believed in some type of universal salvation, they would have taught it. Secondly, if they didn’t believe that having faith in the One True God was a necessity, they wouldn’t have died trying to let the whole world know about Him, and we may have never heard of the Lord Jesus Christ….
Otherwise, I think we may be trailing off topic, and I’m waiting to see if the discussion “gets narrowed down” to something more specific. Thanks.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Mar 2008 at 6:54 pm #
JFrances,
I really appreciate you upholding natural family planning as a viable alternative on a previous thread. That was wonderful.
Regarding extra ecclesiam nulla salus I am roughly familiar with this doctrine although I am outside the Roman Catholic Church.
What is your opinion about this essay by Cardinal Avery Dulles who happens to be a highly regarded Catholic theologian? The title is “Who can be saved?”
Here’s an excerpt:
“Who, then, can be saved? Catholics can be saved if they believe the Word of God as taught by the Church and if they obey the commandments. Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found. Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled. Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will. Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice. God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted. But that same grace brings obligations to all who receive it. They must not receive the grace of God in vain. Much will be demanded of those to whom much is given.”
From: http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=6126
JFrances, would you agree with Cardinal Dulles’s concluding paragraph? If so, how does that cohere with extra ecclesiam nulla salus, since he is stating that folks can be saved outside of the Holy Roman Catholic Church?
This puzzles me.
JOHN on 12 Mar 2008 at 7:54 pm #
Truth Unites…and divides:
RE: comment #15
I was the reader who started this. Just to clarify. I was’nt looking for the “bare minumum” of beliefs in order to avoid/ignore other issues.
As I indicated with my question I go to an Episcopal Church which I have gone to for about 10 years. The whole issue of dealing with the blessing of same sex marriages came to a head last year, when all the parishes in my home state were asked by the Head Bishop of our diocese to discuss this issue. The Bishop is leaving it up to the individual Parishes as to how to handle the issue.
We had our discussion and I was in the minority of those who participated. Having grown up in an Evangelical Church I was opposed to doing this. Anyway we had our discussion and since we did’nt have an overwhelming concensus of the “whole” Parish they decided to not do anything. So for the time being they are not going to bless these relationships. In essence they left the issue hanging out there with no resolution.
A few months prior to this meeting I became aware that this
was even an issue. It seems that the Episcopal Church has been divided for the past 20-30 years over issues of orthodoxy such as this. Our Rector never mentioned the controversy so I did’nt know about it. (He never preached anything that raised my concern.) I only became aware of this in December 2006 when two large Episcopal Parishes in Virginia left the Episcopal Church USA and aligned themselves with the Convocation of Anglicans in North America, which is aligned with the Anglican Church of Kenya, which is Orthodox. I was curious about this so I researched it online and found out about whats been going on. I found a website called (www.virtueonline.org a website for orthodox Anglicans) which has commentary on the coming split between orthodox and non-orthodox Epicopalians. (Long Story, enough for another whole blog.)
Anyway to get to the point of all this I have been struggling as to how to deal with this. For the time being I continue to go to this church and probably will until they “cross the line”.
What I’ve been struggling with is deciding when (what issue/issues) that line has been crossed. I have been going through the Theology Program to learn about the Church and what constitutes Orthodox beliefs and essential beliefs. As Michael said in the Blog response he comes to the table with his own presuppositions as do I. I don’t know if my views are right or not or orthodox enough or not so I’m trying to get to the bottom of this question. Hope this clarifys my position.
Robert Jimenez on 12 Mar 2008 at 8:09 pm #
Michael,
Yes on the subject of how we define Orthodoxy. The title of the lecture that I am planning on doing at my church is “Historic Christian Doctrine & the Creeds - Why do they matter?”
Your original post actually serves as a nice outline, and introduction.
If you have any books that you can recommend that will guide thorough this process that would greatly appreciated.
Michael Clary on 12 Mar 2008 at 8:22 pm #
This is the wrong question to ask. Becoming a Christian is a work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate the non-believer. The non believer is then capable of seeing the light of the gospel in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4:6).
Being a Christian is not reducible to how many propositions one believes or rejects. The person who is regenerated by the Holy Spirit will always recognize his or her Savior and place faith in Christ. Belief in propositions is the *result* of being a Christian, not the means.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Mar 2008 at 9:19 pm #
#30 John,
I’m somewhat familiar with TEc and the Anglican Communion. Of all the mainline liberal denominations that one is experiencing the most turmoil.
I do not use the words heresy and apostasy lightly. But they apply to TEc overall as a denomination. Your own parish might be “okay”, but please do realize that your tithes and offerings are being used to fund the propagation of heresy and apostasy within TEc.
For example, why don’t you read the Presiding Bishopess’s Easter message for this year?
C Michael Patton on 12 Mar 2008 at 10:05 pm #
Robert, I have yet to purchase it, but The Faith by Chuck Colson just came out. I would also make sure you pick up Roger Olson’s Mosaic of Christian Belief. Not a better book out there than this for understanding orthodoxy in such a way.
JFrances on 12 Mar 2008 at 10:12 pm #
“I found this somewhat humorous as it reminded me of when Peter saw that salvation had been “granted to even to the Gentiles†(Acts 10:34-35, 47; 15:8-9) Gentiles? and Protestants? are Christians? Who’d a thunk it?”
Hey Rick. . .Ha! This is such a great point. I suppose it’s not so surprising that the successor of Peter would continue to echo this early revelation!
“The rest, which seemed to hint at the possibility of salvation for those who have not heard the gospel, while interesting, goes beyond what is stated in Scripture.â€
I appreciate your adherence to Sacred Scripture and I share it! However, I offer that it could be argued that the full divinity of Christ, the Trinity, etc. also “go beyond what is stated in Scripture.†There are truths that we hold as orthodox Christians which are not fully expounded and explicit within Scripture.
“First, had they believed in some type of universal salvation, they would have taught it.â€
I agree. And I would offer that the Apostles did not, nor does the Church, promulgate “some type of universal salvation.†This was not the message of LG. Instead, the idea was one of possibility, not certainty, that those who seek and serve Christ even without knowing Him could be afforded grace unto salvation. Without a doubt, this is a doctrinal development, but within the scope of salvation history such a possibility of God doing something unprecedented is not unprecedented.
“Secondly, if they didn’t believe that having faith in the One True God was a necessity, they wouldn’t have died trying to let the whole world know about Him, and we may have never heard of the Lord Jesus Christ…â€
Again, I agree. Admittedly, I—along with many others—recognize the consequences of asserting a possibility of salvation apart from explicit faith in Christ. However, I think assuming that special exceptions would preclude the faithful from their missional call to evangelize is overstating it. We are meant to be obedient children, not score keepers. It is entirely God’s prerogative to call whomever He chooses, however He chooses. For us as Christians, our faith in Christ and knowledge of the gospel is pure grace. Just as you pointed out above, the early Church was amazed by Peter’s “even the Gentiles†pronouncement. I think leaving open the possibility that non-Christians outside the fold could hear the voice of the Shepherd is not Scripturally unfounded.
JFrances on 12 Mar 2008 at 11:04 pm #
Thank you, TUAD, for your encouragement. I truly appreicate your kindness!
You write: “Regarding extra ecclesiam nulla salus I am roughly familiar with this doctrine although I am outside the Roman Catholic Church.â€
Not so fast, TUAD, didn’t you read Lumen Gentium?!?
“What is your opinion about this essay by Cardinal Avery Dulles who happens to be a highly regarded Catholic theologian? The title is ‘Who can be saved?’â€
Cardinal Dulles’ continued contributions to First Things is a highlight of my online endeavors!
Regarding last month’s “Who can be saved?†article: I found it very helpful.
I know you are asking for my opinion on the last paragraph, which you quoted. But I would first offer one of his central paragraphs as a good place to start. . .
Cardinal Dulles writes: “From these and many other texts, I draw the conclusion that, according to the primary Christian documents, salvation comes through personal faith in Jesus Christ, followed and signified by sacramental baptism.â€
I think that if this is where we begin, as Christians, we are on good footing.
So, now onto the last paragraph. . .Within the context of this discussion, I think it is helpful to mention another group. This group, by some estimations, could be considered non-Christian in that they may have never heard of Christ. They may have never heard the gospel proclaimed. And if they have heard of Christ and His message, there is an almost certainty that they were not wholly receptive or cognizant of that encounter. They are infants, small children, the severely mentally impaired. Now, I fully realize that there are varying traditions which would exclude or include this group as part of “the Church” or part of the “saved” based on several systems of thought. However, it is certain that there is no way that we could expect an infant, a small child, or a severely mentally impaired human being to receive the gospel and know Christ in the same way many Christians expect the greater body to do so. How an infant, a small child, or a severely mentally impaired person is saved, we can not possibly know. . .but most of us (some Calvinists excluded, of course) would argue for the possiblity.
I think Cardinal Dulles’ point is that we can not specifically exclude any particular individual from the possible and even unprecedented movements of grace which would allow an unbeliever to hear the voice of the Savior and follow Him wherever He leads.
I think Cardinal Dulles’ opinion in the last paragraph is thoughtful, if not comprehensive. How could any of us know the depths and measures of grace? Cardinal Dulles also writes: “We may conclude with certitude that God makes it possible for the unevangelized to attain the goal of their searching. How that happens is known to God alone. . .â€
Truth Unites... and Divides on 13 Mar 2008 at 4:39 am #
“They are infants, small children, the severely mentally impaired.”
JFrances, Cardinal Dulles didn’t write about them in his concluding paragraph. He wrote:
o “Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled.”
o “Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will.”
o “Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice.”
JFrances, there are Jews who have heard of Christ. There are Hindus, Buddhists, etc… who have heard of Christ. There are atheists who have heard of Christ. And these are people who are not infants, small children, and not severely mentally impaired. And they are all outside the visible Roman Catholic Church.
Cardinal Dulles is saying that all those folks he wrote above can be saved through “the idea of possibility, not certainty, that those who seek and serve Christ even without knowing Him could be afforded grace unto salvation.”
My question still remains: “How does the long-held Catholic dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus logically and intellectually cohere with what Cardinal Dulles and Lumen Gentium have written?”
It really looks to me as if extra ecclesiam nulla salus has been changed to extra ecclesiam salus. Wouldn’t you agree?
Jason on 13 Mar 2008 at 5:51 am #
If I may be slightly tongue-in-cheek the acceptance of post-modernism is a definite sign of someone outside the congregation of Christ.
The God who said “come, let us reason together,” obviously believed there was something to be found in intellectual pursuits.
Robert Jimenez on 13 Mar 2008 at 10:02 am #
Wow it’s amazing how many topics being discussed here are important and would merit a dialog all on their own.
However, I do have some questions that I think are being missed other than Rick in post 18, and JFrances post 23 started to get back on track. Well I say this in the most humblest way. On track as I see it
Michael in his original post only listed some of the current issues that the church is dealing with today. The question that I think he is asking (IMHO), is how do we deal with this heterodox views? Maybe the title was misleading, or maybe not, and I just gravitated to what I am dealing with today at my church. These issues are not going away, and the Historic Christian position is going to continued to be challenged.
Are we correct in saying that Historic Christianity matters today? Should we care or not care? What significance does it have for us today?
Michael did a fine job of summarizing what a Christian is:
“To be Christian means that Christ is your savior and God and you have called upon him to have mercy on you based upon what he did on the cross.”
Today we are facing various groups that are redefining what we have historically embraced (recent issues that have challenged the church such as abortion, open theisms, preterism, etc) as historic Christianity.
According to these different groups as Michael said “In their mind, they are restoring the true intent and teachings of Scripture by abandoning the views of the historic Christian faith.”
How do we deal with this? How do we defend Historic Christianity? I think the BIG question is what Michael asked initially:
“When we talk about the “historic Christian faith†do we mean that this undefined body—this errant spiritual entity—has the ability to define the boundaries of Christianity?”
Well do we?
Does Historic Christianity Matter? « Weird Thinkers on 13 Mar 2008 at 11:35 am #
[...] Posted on March 13, 2008 by Robert There is some great dialog going on at Parachment and Pen on the topic of Historic Christianity. I think it has jump around a bit, as most blog responses [...]
JohnT3 on 13 Mar 2008 at 12:13 pm #
One of the problems with an issue like this that it is not a small matter. Even the subjects you are using to illusrtate your point are very serious matters.
They go to the core of who you think God is and if you trust what he has revealed and told us in his word.
Remember that one of the First things Satan said to Eve was “Did God really say?”
Down playing what God says or even calling it into doubt was one of the first attacks Satan used against us (humanity) and we fell for it hook line and sinker.
Also to disregard what God says is to put ourselves in a position of equality with God.
JFrances on 13 Mar 2008 at 2:23 pm #
TUAD,
Yes, I am keenly aware that Cardinal Dulles didn’t mention the groups I mentioned. That was my point, actually. The groups I mentioned somehow seem less obtrusive to our understanding of possible “exception clauses.†So, my mention of them was to suggest that if we can conceive of any possibility that God would save anyone outside of our Scriptural/historical rubric of explicit faith in Christ, acceptance of the gospel, or sacramental baptism, then where can we really draw the line?
I think this is the thrust of this whole post. CMP asked, “How many beliefs can one abandon and still be called Christian?†The honest answer is we simply don’t know. But, hopefully, our goal isn’t to test the varied hypotheses.
The truth is that we have Scriptural precedent for God including “outsiders†and pursuing certain souls who would otherwise be considered beyond the fold. And, again, as Cardinal Dulles states: “How that happens is known to God alone. . .†This is the basis for the teaching found in LG and, I think, for Cardinal Dulles’ position.
TUAD asks: “My question still remains: ‘How does the long-held Catholic dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus logically and intellectually cohere with what Cardinal Dulles and Lumen Gentium have written?’”
The doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, though clearly a development from St. Cyprian’s first coining, remains relevant because it requires people, Christians especially, to constantly seek truth and unity in doctrine and practice. It is a doctrine closely tied to the Incarnation. It recognizes God’s own plan for His Body, the Church, in being set apart with one Lord, one faith, one baptism, unified, as St. Paul writes, possessing the one love, united in spirit and purpose. And it provides a strong witness to the importance of orthodoxy. This is precisely why I mentioned it in the first place. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, as it has been formally proclaimed, does not preclude God’s sovereignty and prerogative in saving whomever He chooses, in any manner He chooses. Instead, it emphatically points to God’s eternal plan for unity as a mark of the Church, the role the Church plays in salvation, and the fact that we have a responsibility to pursue truth regardless of our personal preferences or inclinations.
The fact that we consistently find ourselves asking “how far can I walk away before I’m not home anymore†is less about the boundaries for orthodoxy and the necessity of the Church towards salvation and more about our own proclivity for sin and autonomy.
TUAD: “It really looks to me as if extra ecclesiam nulla salus has been changed to extra ecclesiam salus. Wouldn’t you agree?”
Um, no I wouldn’t agree. But it’s cute! The teaching of LG (and Cardinal Dulles, for that matter) isn’t an “all good people go to heaven†sort of a deal. Instead, it challenges us, as Christians, to realize the Scriptural mandate for unity within the Body of Christ. It beckons our wayward souls back into the fold and is meant to keep us tuned into the Shepherd’s voice. Instead of saying that anyone who lives a good life, with imperfect knowledge and/or faith in Christ will go to heaven, it recognizes the possibility—especially in the case of Jews and Muslims— that a person (inculpably ignorant of full Christian revelation) who adheres to the Truth as they have received it could, in fact, be moved by some unspecified initiating grace which leads them to Christ, who alone is the cause of our salvation. Again, such an openness to possibility is not a proclamation of certainty, but it is maintained as orthodox as it is respectful of God’s prerogative.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 13 Mar 2008 at 2:57 pm #
JFrances,
We may be talking past each other. If so, let’s try to be cognizant of that, and try to be more mindful of each other.
From wikipedia: “The Latin phrase Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, means: “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. This expression comes from the writings of Saint Cyprian of Carthage, a bishop of the third century. The axiom is often used as short-hand for the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church or Roman Catholic Church which both assert that the Church is absolutely necessary for salvation.”
From Cardinal Dulles:
o “Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled.â€
o “Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will.â€
o “Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice.â€
Cardinal Dulles is clearly stating that people can be saved outside the visible Roman Catholic Church. Therefore, the Roman Catholic Church is not necessary for salvation.
Which is contrary to the long-held magisterial doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Robert Jimenez on 13 Mar 2008 at 3:11 pm #
Michael,
Thanks for the book recommendations, I just purchased them today, looking forward to reading them.
JFrances on 13 Mar 2008 at 3:46 pm #
TUAD,
First, perhaps the Catechism can help explain what you were looking for on wikipedia:
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848
“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338
I think the issue that you are trying to flesh out has to do with a phrase you are reading in wikipedia, but which neither the Catechism nor Cardinal Dulles uses. That phrase is “the Church is absolutely necessary for salvation.†I think a more accurate, and perhaps, more clarifying and coherent assessment would be that the Church is necessary for salvation. The word “absolutely†is absent. That is, in all ordinary and normative senses, Christ, reveals Himself through the Church. Exceptions would be, as the Catechism elaborates, in cases of invincible ignorance, in which case we have faith that God may, by His own prerogative, extend grace toward salvation through extraordinary means.
I do not mean to speak past you. Instead, I am hopeful that I am clearly communicating to you the Church’s stand against absolutism, as it pertains to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Neither the Catechism nor Cardinal Dulles’ statement refuses the historical Christian doctrine that Christ has given His Body, the Church, as a reliable, primary, and the ordinary source for truth and, thusly, salvation. Neither the Catechism nor Cardinal Dulles are suggesting that the Church is, in fact, absolutely unnecessary. Instead, both, in a tradition of speculative theology, offer an openness to the possibility that God may choose to save whomever he chooses, beyond our own understanding and knowledge.
What we DO know, and hopefully, on something that we CAN agree is that God certainly does not will disunity. And, though He may achieve His purpose even outside of the Christian tradition, we are no less bound to the intentional, Scriptural, and theological mandates of extra ecclesiam nulla salus which call us to unity in the Body of Christ, the very Incarnational reality which is the cause of our salvation.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 13 Mar 2008 at 4:28 pm #
JFrances,
Thanks for your response. I’d like to look at this part of the catechism:
“Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
Let’s apply this declaration from the catechism to all non-Catholic Christians, including myself.
Am I saved or not saved? I am not a part of the RCC, nor have I ever been. I don’t believe that the RCC is necessary for me to be saved and a follower of Christ.
There are lots of folks like that, including the Eastern Orthodox who are also not part of the Roman Catholic Church.
We all would disagree with that sentence in the RCC catechism. Yet the bulk of us non-Catholic Christians would regard ourselves as being saved. Never having stepped into a RC parish, never partaking of RC sacraments, etc….
Yet we’re all saved. Isn’t that wonderful?
Tony Scialdone on 13 Mar 2008 at 5:47 pm #
Maybe a better way to arrive at some sort of answer would be to ask a different question:
“Which point(s) of doctrine MUST we have ABSOLUTELY CORRECT to go to heaven?”.
I’m sure that lots of people I’ll meet in heaven really didn’t understand the trinity, for example…and they’ll be able to say that about me. Were we to list some of the historically-held doctrines that Christians generally agree on, and ask “could someone be wrong about this one or that one and still be saved?”…well, I think most people would say YES: many points of doctrine are unessential for salvation.
Note that I’m not suggesting that one can be both completely orthodox and utterly ignorant…nor is ignorance preferable. I’m asking about the essential doctrines without which one cannot possibly become a Christian.
Obviously, soteriology can be complicated. Simplifying it can be complicated as well…but if we start with what MUST be accurately understood and believed and work outward, we may arrive at something that’s both Scriptural and logical.
What do you think?
JFrances on 14 Mar 2008 at 2:47 pm #
TUAD asks: “Am I saved or not saved?”
I respond: That’s hardly a question I am qualified to answer.
TUAD states: I’d like to look at this part of the catechism:
“Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.â€
I think this is a perfectly good place to look at, especially as it pertains to the broader topic of orthodoxy and how far from it you can go before you are no longer called a Christian.
I offer: Suppose the sentence said Church, not specifying the Roman Catholic Church as you understand it, would it still be as offensive to you? Suppose the sentence replaced any indication of any Church organization and solely indicated a some sort of construct of orthodoxy that you affirm. Is the sentence really all that different from the question we are doing business with here in this blog post?
I would argue, no. It isn’t all that different.
By asking the question, “how many beliefs can one abandon before you can no longer be called a Christian†is, in my mind, equivalent to asking “how many steps can I take away from the Church before I’m not in it anymore?â€
The fact that the Catholic Church has defined for her faithful the very parameters that we are considering really shouldn’t be so scandalous. These simply aren’t new ideas.
If you believed by faith, as I do, that Christ founded a Church, physically and spiritually unified, and that Church is responsible for maintaining right teaching and regulating the behavior of the faithful, yet knowing this, you decided to refuse it or walk away from it, do you really think that wouldn’t affect your salvation?
Perhaps your answer would be no. Perhaps you don’t think that any choice you make is particularly relevant to your standing before God. That’s another theological discussion in and of itself.
But, if indeed you believe that faith in and obedience to Christ through His Church, the pillar and bulwark of truth, is necessary—absolutely or normatively—then, I would expect your answer, regardless of your faith tradition, to be quite similar to the statement you quoted from the Catechism.
In other words, read the statement like this: “Hence they could not be saved, who knowing that obedience was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse to enter into it or to remain in it.â€
Do you disagree? Is it okay to refuse orthodoxy, as you have been instructed and convicted? Does this refusal really have no affect on your standing before God or inclusion within His Body, the Church?
These are the questions I was trying to elicit.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 14 Mar 2008 at 3:52 pm #
Hi JFrances,
When I asked about being saved or not saved, I was asking in the context of someone who’s outside the visible Roman Catholic Church, and as a representative of the millions of others who are also outside the visible Roman Catholic Church.
I was asking about the salvific status of non-Catholic Christians (as well as non-Catholics in general) as it pertains to the magisterial doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Actually, extra ecclesiam nulla salus doesn’t bother me at all. What’s peculiar and not fully coherent to me is when RCC’s say that there’s “no salvation outside the church” and yet they’ll simultaneously say the same thing that Cardinal Dulles says:
o “Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled.â€
o “Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will.â€
o “Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice.â€
Honestly, he’s saying that folks can be saved outside the RCC. That’s a fairly straightforward contradiction to EENS.
And honestly, I don’t think the RCC is the one true church. That’s really a foundational premise that you hold to, and one that the RCC teaches. I know the RCC proclaims it and I don’t mind the RCC proclaiming it. I just don’t believe it.
How about this? You’re a faithful, inclusive Catholic who holds to “a tradition of speculative theology, offer[ing] an openness to the possibility that God may choose to save whomever he chooses, beyond our own understanding and knowledge.”
As a separated brethren, I can appreciate that.
JFrances on 14 Mar 2008 at 5:31 pm #
Hi TUAD. . .Thank you for the respectful way in which you are probing and prodding on this discussion.
You explain: “I was asking about the salvific status of non-Catholic Christians (as well as non-Catholics in general) as it pertains to the magisterial doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.”
Yes, I understand that this was your line of thought. This is precisely why I pointed to the official doctrinal statements from Lumen Gentium and the Catechism, as opposed to a wikipedia article or some other source which goes further than the actual doctrinal statements themselves.
To be clear, the official “salvific status of non-Catholic Christians,” “non-Catholics in general,” and, in fact, all baptized Catholics is quite particular to each individual, known perfectly to God alone. This is made clear especially as the official doctrine itself recognizes certain mitigating circumstances which could weigh in on the “salvific status” of any given person.
The doctrinal statement is less one of particular judgment and more of a treatise on the effects of schism, willful disobedience, culpablity.
You clarify: “What’s peculiar and not fully coherent to me is when RCC’s say that there’s “no salvation outside the church†and yet they’ll simultaneously say the same thing that Cardinal Dulles saysâ€
I think the problem you are having is that you are comparing your own preconceived notion and rough familiarity of what extra ecclesiam nulla salus means with what the Church actually and officially teaches it means.
You say: “Honestly, he’s saying that folks can be saved outside the RCC. That’s a fairly straightforward contradiction to EENS.â€
I understand your frustration. I really do. But, again, you are imposing what you think the Church should mean on what it actually is saying it means. This is not uncommon in various interpretive discussions.
Quick example (somewhat trailing off topic. . .but in terms of a discussion on “what doctrines can we abandon,†perhaps not off topic at all):
When some Christians read Christ’s words “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you,” these same Christians would say, “obviously, Jesus is saying that we must actually eat his flesh and drink his blood.†Other Christians, however, would object, “no, no, you are not understanding it properly. . .Jesus doesn’t mean we must actually eat his flesh and drink his blood.†The former group would respond, “But, he says it so clearly.†The latter group, “But that’s not how we interpret it.â€
It’s a common problem, no matter which side you find yourself on. How many Christians accept “sola fide†or “sola scriptura†and yet differ (to varying degrees, of course) on what that doctrine actually means? Some go too far. Some not far enough. No matter your faith tradition, we all come to the table with loaded interpretive arsenals. I think our job of ecumenicism towards unity is to accept the foundational truth that a Church (or a person) has the right to say something AND define what they mean by that statement.
My whole purpose in mentioning extra ecclesiam nulla salus in the first place, and consistently throughout this tangential discussion, has been to offer it up for consideration and comparison within the context of the original post on “how many beliefs can one abandon. . .?†I never intended (begging the pardon of the hosting party) to attempt a systematic defense of the doctrine itself.
The question I meant to elicit was one of obedience. If we are considering “how many beliefs can one abandon. . .,†I think it is fair to consider how far from the measure of orthodoxy can you get before you are no longer orthodox—if, indeed, you recognize such a measure at all.
tc on 14 Mar 2008 at 8:08 pm #
I’ll venture yet another question: What are the essential doctrines that define biblical Christianity?
minnowspeaks on 15 Mar 2008 at 7:50 am #
TC–
That ought to be good for a whole other blog post.
Jeremy on 01 Apr 2008 at 8:10 am #
Great post.
The next question in my head is (and forgive me if it’s somewhere amidst the 52 previous comments):
-When do we (or should we ever) separate ourselves from these groups of (assumed) believers for their unorthodox beliefs?