Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? - Part 5 - Are You Emerging?
Are you an emerger? Is the emerging church heretical? What should my attitude be toward this “movement”? These are the questions that started this series of blog posts and I hope by the end of this post you will be better equipped to answer these questions in an informed and responsible way.
I will now (finally!) attempt to give you five ways in which I believe one can emerge or identify with, at least to some degree, the emerging movement.
Here they are:
- Emerging Ecclesiologically
- Emerging Sociologically
- Emerging Theologically
- Emerging Epistemologically
- Emerging Politically
It is important to keep in mind that being “emerging” in any of these categories does not necessarily mean that one is an emerger, it simply means that one identifies, sympathizes, or finds themselves within this particular characteristic of emerging thought.
The examples provided in each group are not meant to be exhaustive or taken as a unified whole. In other words, some emergers may identify with some of the examples and not others.
Emerging Ecclesiologically
This characterizes an attempt or desire to return to some traditional elements of the Christian faith that draw upon a more experience based worship. Many times this will be evidenced by a less formal structure of gatherings or formal church time, allowing freedom of expression without the traditional restraints of more program oriented gatherings.
Examples:
- Less tendency to have a traditional (post-reformation) church program structure
- Movement toward house churches
- Disdain for “mega” churches
- Lord’s supper/Eucharist practiced every week
- Artwork as expressions of faith
- Candles and incense
- Traditional prayers and creeds
- Prayer walks
More radical Emergent type examples:
- Eastern meditation
- Yoga services
Emerging Epistemologically
A desire for an epistemic humility that recognizes the shortcomings modernistic enlightenment philosophy bent on striving for absolute knowledge and certainty in all things. This humility ranges from radical agnosticism (e.g. a denial of our ability to know anything for certain) to essentials-only mentality (e.g. we only focus on the essentials that are clear and have been held by the historic Christian faith).
Examples:
- Suspicious of all truth claims
- Willingness to question personal traditions at the deepest level
- Doubt and uncertainty concerning an individualistic approach to truth and knowledge—we learn in community
- More desirous to broaden perspectives outside subjective cultural norms
- Recognition that our knowledge is not objective, we all learn in a biased context
- Denial of man’s ability to have absolute certainty (this is reserved only for God)
- More skeptical of traditional sources of information and authority (science, denominational authorities, pastors, theologians, media, etc)
- More apophatic, emphasizing mystery and our inability as finite beings to definitely and conclusively define an infinite God
More radical Emergent type characteristics:
- Denial of the existence of “Truth” with a capital “T” (absolute truth)
- Denial of any claims to certainty
- Denial of the analogy of language (e.g. language is not a sufficient conduit of truth)
Emerging Theologically
Calling into question many traditional Christian doctrines. This questioning can result in agnosticism toward the particular doctrine, marginalization of the issue, or a settled humble conviction concerning the issue. This is closely tied to being emerging epistemologically.
Examples:
- Missional focus concerning the spread of the Gospel (Christians do not go to church, they are the church)
- Less tendency to recognize or give strong credence to traditional theological divisions (e.g. Catholic-Protestant; Reformed-Arminian)
- Not too keen to systematic theology since to “systematize” ones theology usually implies a seemingly forced system of harmonization that is seen to be inconsistent with both human ability and divine revelation
- Hesitancy about taking traditional labels such as Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Liberal, or even Emerger since the labels associate them with a systematized system of beliefs and thought
- 1) Agnostic with regards to the destiny of the unevangelized (e.g. we don’t know the eternal condition of the unevangelized)
- 2) Inclusivistic with regards to destiny of the unevangelized (e.g. Christ’s blood can save those who don’t have the chance to hear the Gospel)
- More agnostic toward the nature of hell
- Willing to see value in multiple theories of the atonement, not just the vicarious substitutionary view
- Traditional Protestant theology of imputation questioned
More radical Emergent type characteristics:
- Universalism (all people will make it to heaven as God will redeem all things)
- Pluralism (all religions are basically the same)
- Denial of hell as a place of eternal judgment
- Complete denial of the vicarious substitutionary view of the atonement
Emerging Sociologically
Engaging in and integration with culture and society in traditionally “unorthodox†ways. The integration has to to with a belief that culture is not necessarily evil, but can be part of God’s common grace. The engagement is purposed on sharing the Gospel in places and ways that are seen as taboo for many in the evangelical or fundamentalist communities. As well, this characteristic is bent upon the belief that loving one’s neighbor and sharing the Gospel is not limited to our words, but is more powerfully expressed through out actions—actions of kindness, mercy, and justice.
Examples:
- Having church service in a brewery
- Looking like the culture (e.g. dress, nose rings, colored hair)
- Talking like the culture (e.g. getting rid of all Christianese language, less sensitive toward vulgarity, etc.)
- Focus on bringing about justice (liberation of the oppressed, sympathy toward aids victims, women’s rights in society and the church, etc).
- Willing to traverse the Christian sub-culture taboos (drinking, smoking, rated “R” movies, etc.)
More radical Emergent type characteristics:
- Denial that homosexuality is sinful
- Social Gospel becomes primary (e.g. Gospel of mercy without preaching of sin, the cross, and forgiveness)
Emerging Politically
Sympathizes with many of the more traditionally liberal political concerns. This is closely connected to being socially emerging.
Examples:
- Do not identify with a political party (e.g. they should not be seen as “the republican party at prayer!”)
- Anti-war or more pacifistic
- Support those with environmental concerns (green peace, global warming, recycling)
More radical Emergent type characteristics:
- Approval of homosexual marriages and unions
- Support of the women’s right to choose
- Definitely identify with more liberal politics
I think that it is important to note that one can be emerging in one category and not so much in another. One might be emerging epistemologically and, to some degree, theologically, but not so politically or ecclesiastically. As well, one might be emerging socially, like Mark Driscoll, but not really too emerging in the other areas. Does this mean that they are still emerging? Yes, but only in those areas. Should they take on the name? I guess if they so choose, but one is always going to have to qualify what they mean.
As I said in previous posts, many of the non-Emergent type characteristics are shared by both traditional Evangelicals and emergers. Therefore, if you are an Evangelical and see yourself in some of these emerging characteristics, this should not surprise you. As I said before, much of the ethos of the emerging movement is simply what I believe to be a revitalization and a “next step” of Evangelicalism as it arose out of Fundamentalism in the 40s and 50s.
As well, there are those leaders in the emerging movement who I would call evangelical-emergers such as Scot McKnight, Robert Webber (deceased), Stanley Grenz (deceased), Dan Kimball, N.T. Wright, Eugene Peterson, Donald Miller, Mark Driscoll, and Dallas Willard (not all of whom would necessarily take the name emerging, but do identify closely with the emerging ethos). In this case, “evangelical” might be used as an adjective rather than a noun. They may be evangelical, not necessarily Evangelical.
So, are you an emerger? As you can see from this series of blogs, that is quite a question.
Will the real emerger please stand up? No, I take that back. Will the non-emergers just sit back down—that seems easier.
I hope this has been a helpful series.
Thoughts? Are you standing or sitting?
There is still time to enroll. The Theology Program online Summer semester begins June 3. Enroll today.
Support Reclaiming the Mind Ministries as we make theology accessible. Donate today.
If you enjoyed this post, make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed!
- Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? - Part 5 - Are You Emerging?
- Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? Part 3 - An Emerging Definition of “Emerging”
- Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? Part 1
- Am I Emerging?
- Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up - Part 4 - Comparing Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Emergers

Jason J on 21 Feb 2008 at 12:20 am #
— Sitting Down—-
I have followed this series eager to learn and obtain a new perspective. I must commend you CMP for your hard work on this topic.
However, I’m disappointed. I’ve failed to see how emergers are anything different than there cousins, secular liberals. The main difference (emerger vs secular liberal) is a profession of faith that they aren’t even all that sure of since they a calling so many foundationals into question.
You have done a great job in putting all this information together. It’s very clear and well organized.
My disappointment is that I was hoping to be convinced that this emerging/emergent crowd wasn’t destroying Christianity and taking many people down with them. But I’m not yet at that point. I will however keep looking at things and wrestling with this as it continues to develope.
Thanks again for a great series!
Luke on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:39 am #
If these characteristics are all emerging (except the more radical characteristics), then sign me up. However, I don’t want the label!!!
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:49 am #
Luke,
Spoken like a true emerger, “if these characteristics . . . ” Reasoned skepticism toward my presentation!
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:50 am #
Thanks Jason. Glad that this has helped.
Que Se Pongan de Pie los Emergentes… « sujetosalaRoca on 21 Feb 2008 at 3:19 am #
[...] Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? Part 5. Are You Emerging? [...]
scott gray on 21 Feb 2008 at 6:55 am #
cmp–
excellent series. the concentric circle model was absolutely superb, and the modified venn diagrams from the earlier posts in the series as well.
how did this whole idea evolve for you? how did you start thinking about such a taxonomy?
who are some of the key players in each of your five categories?
you’ve described, and in the description validated a little, a wide variety of people. perhaps one of the effects of your series is that some folks who are only marginally engaged in church, will become more so when they see there’s others out there who, even if they don’t think the same, at least value each other’s ‘theology’–faith seeking understanding.
peace–
scott
JoanieD on 21 Feb 2008 at 7:40 am #
For the most part, Michael, I’m with Luke, “If these characteristics are all emerging (except the more radical characteristics), then sign me up.” And from bits and pieces I have read from some of the men you describe as evangelical-emergers, I may be most like them. I am sure we won’t all agree on everything, though.
Thank you for this great series. I know it took much studying, thinking, reading, time and energy. I think this #5 section may be the best of all. I bet you would do well with this series in a little booklet format for those who are trying to figure out what this emergent thing is all about.
Joanie D.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 21 Feb 2008 at 8:04 am #
As I said before, much of the ethos of the emerging movement is simply what I believe to be a revitalization and a “next step†of Evangelicalism as it arose out of Fundamentalism in the 40s and 50s.
The “next step” advocated, propagated, and taken by the emerging movement is a MAJOR STEP BACKWARD, generally speaking, and in my humble opinion.
In Scripture, Apostle Paul’s warning to Timothy seems to describe the emerging movement very well:
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,” (2 Tim. 4:3)
That’s not to say that your series wasn’t helpful to some degree, CMP. It was. But I appreciate the moral integrity of the observers of the Emergent Movement and who have taken a stand one way or the other even more. That is to say that if one is an Emerger, I at least respect the fact that they will say that they ARE an Emerger (qualified or unqualified). Conversely, I respect the moral honesty of those who’ve evaluated the Emergent movement and who will say that overall the postmodern Emergent movement is doing damage to the Body of Christ.
Evangelical leaders, who have opposed the Emergent Movement include D.A. Carson, Millard Erickson, David Wells, Carl Henry, Chuck Smith, Charles Colson, Ravi Zacharias, RC Sproul, Os Guiness, John MacArthur, et al.
P.S. Some minor aspects of the various Emerging movement that are okay to me, and in my opinion only:
Emerging ecclesiologically: I’m somewhat indifferent, except for being opposed to the radical emergent types.
Emerging epistemologically: I’m deeply suspicious of the Emerging movement’s approach to epistemology!
Emerging theologically: Missional focus.
Emerging sociologically: Looks like overly conforming to the world. In contrast to Romans 12:2.
Emerging politically: Emergers want to be an independent or don’t vote at all? Fine, that’s their choice.
Personal Conclusion, and in the tradition of the Siskel and Ebert movie reviews, and which should surprise no one:
“Thumbs Down on the Emerging Movement. A major thumbs down.”
(But at least I have the moral integrity to take a clear stand.)
JoanieD on 21 Feb 2008 at 8:15 am #
Oh, the area I least fit in is the Emerging Sociologically section. I don’t like or have piercings (well, one in each ear which I didn’t get until I was over 40!), I don’t like or hang out at bars, I get sick of hearing constant vulgarity, etc., even though I have family and friends who are comfortable with all that. So I would not be a good one to encounter people in those situations. I TRY not to judge people who are comfortable in those situations though. Jesus loves them and died for them.
Joanie D.
Elle (Tracy Simmons) on 21 Feb 2008 at 8:25 am #
–Standing–
You’ve obviously worked really hard on this series and I applaud your efforts. Trying to truly define emerging and emergers is a tricky as trying to catch eels covered in baby oil!
I would love to see you tackle one more question on this topic. The WHY behind all of it. As I’ve read through the comments over the past few posts it occurs to me that the non-emergers may not really understand the why behind the thought process. In other words, what got us started down this path? There are many answers to the why question, and I think they would be great to explore.
My husband and I used to be pastors and walked out of those roles (in the traditionally defined sense, that is!) a decade ago, feeling that there might be a better way for us (not for everyone, just for us!). The last 10 years have been interesting, to say the least, but one thing that I can now put my finger on that has really changed me is realizing how I used to be so sure of so many things….and I turned out to be quite wrong! That has really put a caution in my heart to not be quite so certain on any of what I perceive to be the “nonessentials,” as I’ve learned first-hand just how wrong I can be. It has been a time of wonderful humbling. I am now unwavering in the essentials, but there are only a few of those in my life at this time, with Christ at the center of those few.
I’ll stop now before this gets too long, but thought if you perhaps dug into the “why” it might help non-emergers have more compassion for why we emergers are currently walking the path we are. I don’t expect to stay on this path forever; I am willing to “land” on some points, but the journey is half the fun!
Thanks, CMP, this has been great!
Elle (Tracy Simmons) on 21 Feb 2008 at 8:28 am #
–Standing–
You’ve obviously worked really hard on this series and I applaud your efforts. Trying to truly define emerging and emergers is a tricky as trying to catch eels covered in baby oil!
I would love to see you tackle one more question on this topic. The WHY behind all of it. As I’ve read through the comments over the past few posts it occurs to me that the non-emergers may not really understand the why behind the thought process. In other words, what got us started down this path? There are many answers to the why question, and I think they would be great to explore.
My husband and I used to be pastors and walked out of those roles (in the traditionally defined sense, that is!) a decade ago, feeling that there might be a better way for us (not for everyone, just for us!). The last 10 years have been interesting, to say the least, but one thing that I can now put my finger on that has really changed me is realizing how I used to be so sure of so many things….and it turned out that I was quite wrong! That has really put a caution in my heart to not be quite so certain on any of what I perceive to be the “nonessentials,” as I’ve learned first-hand just how wrong I can be. It has been a time of wonderful humbling. The cost has been very high, the pain level at times quite intense! I am now unwavering in the essentials, but there are only a few of those in my life at this time, with Christ at the center of those few. I’m not a “radical” emerger by any stretch, but am certainly a long way off from the person I used to be: So sure of everything!
I’ll stop now before this gets too long, but thought if you perhaps dug into the “why” it might help non-emergers have more compassion for why we emergers are currently walking the path we are. There are many, many different stories behind each “why” and they all can help bring understanding and compassion to the table, I think. I don’t expect to stay on this path forever; I am willing to “land” on some points, but the journey is half the fun!
Thanks, CMP, this has been great!
Truth Unites... and Divides on 21 Feb 2008 at 8:39 am #
Dear CMP,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you stated that you are “sitting” down as a non-Emerger. From part 1 of this series, you wrote:
“I also write this because I was recently identified as an emerger (which was news to me) by some of the more antagonist anti-emergers at a Bible conference. More importantly, I was placed along side of McLaren and Pagitt as a significant influence in the emerging movement. I did not see the connection at all.â€
Cliff Martin on 21 Feb 2008 at 11:25 am #
CMP,
You correctly identify one aspect of emerging epistemology: “More skeptical of traditional sources of information and authority (science …”
I identify with most aspects of emerging epistemology as you lay them out, but I find myself more receptive to science than most evangelicals, certainly than most fundamentalists. The 20th century saw a huge decline in scientific literacy within the conservative church (at least in the U.S.). Fundamentalism, and to a lesser degree, evangelicalism, in many ways abandoned the entire enterprise of science, to the great impoverishment of the church. Do you agree? And if so, what exactly are emergers emerging from with this even greater skepticism toward science? Or, put another way, does the starting point matter? While emergers are perhaps more skeptical of science than secularists, might they at the same time be more receptive to science than their evangelical brothers?
Even as I “emerge” out of the absolutism of 20th century epistemology, I am seeing an enlarged place for science in my personal epistemology.
Rick on 21 Feb 2008 at 11:43 am #
Michael,
I have one simple question, and don’t mean it to be pejorative in anyway (in fact you may have stated it one of the previous posts, of which I’ve scanned most of them but not thoroughly read):
What was/is your intention in this series? What were you hoping to accomplish?
Ruben on 21 Feb 2008 at 12:24 pm #
Standing, my greatest influence as a Christian is C.S. Lewis and based on the above categories he seems to have emerged way ahead of his time! Personally I consider myself catholic (small “C”) and I think we have carried the above characteristics for some time without being seen as a new movement changing Christianity.
JohnT3 on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:01 pm #
CMP
I appreciate the effort you put into this topic. While I know that denominations suffer from this same problem but Emerging Philosophy seems to be like a buffet line. I will take some of these, none of those and oh yeah a whole lot of those.
While I agree that we see as in a mirror dimly we still have everything we need contained in the pages of the scriptures. What I think we forget is that the Scribes, Saducees and the Pharasees created heir own system of theology and rejected God’s.
It makes no sense at all that we can deny or be supicious of truth claims when the Apostles, the Prophets and the Lord date that we are to know “THE TRUTH” not “A TRUTH” but the truth.
So how do we question these claims? The Lord himself says that it will be evenmore amazing that we will come to that knowledge of the truth because we did not have the advantage of walking with the Lord as the Apostles did.
Again while I appreciate the effort here, The Emerging Community needs to state what they believe. It has to be systematized and spelled out.
So far the only ones to do that are that vocal minority who are responsible for the picture we paint of Emerging Theology.
Again for the record I never thought of you as an Emerger. Even after this series. The fact that you tried to explain it and put into a construct disqualifies you from being one doesn’t it?
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:08 pm #
Truth, thanks for the questions.
First, you said:
“Evangelical leaders, who have opposed the Emergent Movement include D.A. Carson, Millard Erickson, David Wells, Carl Henry, Chuck Smith, Charles Colson, Ravi Zacharias, RC Sproul, Os Guiness, John MacArthur, et al.”
This might be a little misleading. D.A. Carson and MacArthur wrote against the emerging church using Brian McLaren as their representative. At the time when Carson wrote, I don’t think that the Emerging/Emergent separation had begun. Therefore, it is safe to say that they (along with Wells) have spoken out against the Emergent church, even if they broadbrushed the movement (which was more understandable for Carson to do). The rest have spoken out against Postmodernism and a relativistic epistemology, not really the emerging church. Those who are emerging-evangelicals would and have done the same. Check out some of Scot McKnights writings on his blog and you will see this.
As far as myself, I do not identify myself as Emerging (capital E), even though I have many emerging characteristics. As I have said many times, I think the name’s close association with a postmodern worldview has tainted it to such a degree that it is not smart, at least for me, to identify with it.
Generally, I agree with just about everything they are saying epistemologically, however I don’t like the focus on mystery to such a degree that it becomes the center of my theology. God said “the secret things belong to the Lord…” Yes, there are secret things. There is mystery. We need to recognize this and humbly submit to such. Yet God goes on and says “…but, the things reveald” belong to us. There is a lot that has been revealed. Yes, some things are harder to understand than others, but I think we can dishonor God and humanity (who is in his image) when we say that most of those things revealed cannot be understood. It is the nature of revelation to be understood.
As well, while I do appreciate the differing traditions in the Christian faith (Catholic and Orthodox) and think we can learn much from them and they from us, I don’t think those differences should be minimized to the degree that often occurs in the emerging movement. I do not define being a good Protestant as being a good anti-Catholic, but there are some serious differences that need to continue to be recognized.
From a sociological perspective, I understand where they are coming from and share much of the same affinity or disposition toward culture. Culture is amoral, neither good nor bad. It can represent God or the world. We need to recognize this and cease from a separatist mentality.
Politically, I am republican and conservative. They are right, the church is not the republican party at prayer. They are also right to say that liberal agendas are not necessarily evil and republicans need to see this. Yet at the same time I do think that fighting for the poor and social justice (which I believe in) at the same time as supporting a political tradition that approves abortion is a major concern and dichotomy.
The republican party is not perfect, but it does hold up family values and I am for that more than anything else since I believe it is the only way for solve issues.
The best I can say is that I am a sympathic supporter of emergers, and a critic of Emergent. I am part of the emerging conversation. If someone wants to call me emerging, so be it, but they need to understand and qualify such. I am evangelical and I am progressive. This means that I am always ready to reform, but it does not come easy.
Hope that helps Truth.
David on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:12 pm #
Thanks for the GREAT series! I love charts (too bad that marks me as a Modern), and this last article of “How to tell if you are Emerging” helped me to understand what I like about Driscoll and Co., and distrust about McClaren and Co. I guess I are one, too!
#13, I think there has been a Evangelical presence in the sciences, especially considering “Creation Research Institute” and the other Creation Science communities. The problem is when “Science” is interpreted as implying “Evolutionism”. Some Evangelicals do hold to Evolutionism; oddly enough, those types (with some exceptions, like Hugh Ross) aren’t the ones really interested in science; they merely defer to “authority” that Evolutionism is scientific - I think this trend is responsible for that “decline of scientific literacy within the conservative church” that you cite. It is the creationists who tend to be more interested in Science!
Speaking as an creationist engineer, of course!
Kyle on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:13 pm #
Outstanding work. I have been reading books on the emerging movement over the last few months and just stumbled onto your site three days ago. There is such a multitude of resources on this topic in books and websites that it is difficult to find an all-inclusive synopsis.
I am a 45 year old lawyer/youth minister born and raised Church of Christ. Although the Church of Christ is not an Evangelical church, we would probably be considered somewhere to the right of the right on a chart or diagram. Consequenty, I could spend all day writing up disagreements over the beliefs/practices/conduct you mention above. Nevertheless, I am very interested in anything that has the smell of authenticity (whatever that is). The more I read about the “emerging” movement, the more excited I become. Young people finding ways of evangelism that we older folks have either forgotten, or never took the time to explore in the first place. There is MUCH useful information coming from this movement. Radical evangelism, radical change, and most important for me — radically re-examining the message of the Bible with blinders off. My theology has not changed in all of my readings over the past few months, but my attitude has, and my zeal is off the charts! I love reading your work and the many posters to these forums. I also especially loved the section by Dan Wallace on “My favorite scripture NOT in the Bible.” I was well familiar with all of that, but it was a great read. You and your contributors are excellent writers. Thanks for this blog, and this post in particular, and keep up the great work.
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:16 pm #
Rick, I was hoping to help a primarily evangelical audience that does not know much about the emerging movement outside of the criticism of MacArthur and Carson realize that to be emerging is a complex issue that cannot be broadbrushed with a simple critique. I want people to have balance in their understand, realizing that the voices in the emerging movement are real and significant.
I also wanted people to understand that to be emerging does not mean that you have departed from historic Christianity. I want people to know that there are many within the movement who are extremely orthodox such as Dan Kimball, Scot McKnight, and Mark Driscoll. And I want people to see that there are those such as Tony Jones, Brian McLaren, and Doug Pagitt who are stepping outside the bounds of orthodoxy. (If I am not mistaken, Tony Jones just approve the ordination of Lesbian into the ministry at Emergent Village). I sympathize with lesbians as we all have our sins we struggle with, but we cannot compromise the integrity of the ministry in such a way.
Finally, I hope that this distinction between emerging and Emergent becomes widely recognized so that honor will be given to those who are truly soldiers of the cross reaching out with a pure Gospel even if you don’t agree with them on everything (i.e. Dan Kimball).
In the end, I think I just love Dan Kimball so much that you can say that this was simply a polemic in his defense.
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:20 pm #
John,
You said:”Again for the record I never thought of you as an Emerger. Even after this series. The fact that you tried to explain it and put into a construct disqualifies you from being one doesn’t it?”
I say:
“Touche”
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:24 pm #
Cliff, the emerging generation has a distrust in science like they would anything else. Really it is with man’s ability to do science with objectivity and integrity. So this distrust is not absolute, it is just that the emerging generation is more skeptical when someone says this is a “fact” of science, knowing now that the data may change or be reinterpreted later.
Let’s face it, with Pluto no longer being a planet, the food pyramid being turned upside down, and quantam machanics we need to just allow science on for the ride, but let’s not put them in the driver’s seat!
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 1:27 pm #
Kyle, glad you are here. Thanks for reading my friend. Stay strong in the ministry.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:05 pm #
As far as myself, I do not identify myself as Emerging (capital E), even though I have many emerging characteristics.
Thank you for stating that clearly. I appreciate someone who is outside of a movement who can also describe that movement. Analogously, someone doesn’t have to be a drug user to write about drug usage. Or someone doesn’t have to be gay or lesbian to write about GLBT issues. Or someone doesn’t have to be in the porn industry to write about the porn industry. Or someone doesn’t have to be an evangelical protestant to write about the multi-faceted evangelical church.
I’m glad that you’re a sitting-down non-Emerger who wrote a nice multi-part analysis about the Emerging movement.
“At the time when Carson wrote, I don’t think that the Emerging/Emergent separation had begun.”
A separation, huh? Why was there a separation? What do the “Emergings” say and think about the “Emergents”? Visa versa, what do the “Emergents” say and think about the “Emergings”?
Perhaps a multi-part series explaining the fracture between “Emergings” and “Emergents” would be helpful.
“Politically, I am republican and conservative. I am evangelical and I am progressive.”
Okay! A progressive conservative Republican evangelical!
Alyssa on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:10 pm #
Do we really need the labels? Is a definition with this much controversy really necessary?
Oh my gosh. I’m totally emerging, aren’t I? I’m going to go have a cup of tea and do some yoga to figure this out!
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:17 pm #
Alyssa, we don’t need labels, but they do help. I don’t need a name, a job title, or to be called a “father” or “husband,” but it does help define me. We do need to be defined and to define ourselves. Labels may not last and can get distorted, but it is impossible to live life and make responsible decisions without some type of label. Remember, follows of Christ were labeled “the Way” and “Christians” early on. “The Way” is no longer any good and Christian for 4 billion people is simply synonomous with American. Therefore we are always going to be defining ourselves. This is sometimes petty, but it will always be necessary. If you don’t label yourself, someone else will, I promise.
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:22 pm #
Truth
“A separation, huh? Why was there a separation? What do the “Emergings” say and think about the “Emergents”? Visa versa, what do the “Emergents” say and think about the “Emergings.”
That is what I have been talking about for the entire series. There is a distinction that is made between emerging and Emergent. See here where emerging evangelical Scot McKnight distinguishes between the two: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/11.35.html
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:26 pm #
BTW: My thoughts are that in the next couple of years, this distinction will be more evident as the more orthodox emergers cut ties with the less orthodox.
Cliff Martin on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:27 pm #
The problem is that I am finding that a disciple of Jesus just cannot fit into political label boxes, at least not as I understand our mandate. The Scriptures place a high priority on matters of Justice. To be faithful to that priority, I must support many progressive and/or Democratic party positions. Many issues of personal morality make me lean right, and Republican. Issues related to individual responsibility put me squarely in the Republican camp, but issues related to responsibility of large corporations line me up with the Dems. I am totally convinced that Jesus, today, were he to engage himself politically (which is another question altogether) would be a Democrat/Republican/Independent/Conservative/Progressive/ Liberal/Moderate/Green.
Alyssa on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:48 pm #
Michael,
I totally understand. I was actually laughing at myself because that was my first reaction. It was a perfect example of your point!
I talked with my mom yesterday and she said, “Well, that emerging thing is already pase” and I’ve really hardly heard a thing about it! And when I lived in LA I even went to Mosaic (Erwin McManus’s church). I was clueless. To me it was just a Southern Baptist church with bean bag chairs and a couple candles….
Jugulum on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:51 pm #
TUaD,
“That’s not to say that your series wasn’t helpful to some degree, CMP. It was. But I appreciate the moral integrity of the observers of the Emergent Movement and who have taken a stand one way or the other even more.”
Ah, but what if that’s like taking a stand on the Evangelical Movement, with John MacArthur, D.A. Carson, Joel Osteen, C. Michael Patton, John Piper, Kirk Cameron, Eugene Peterson, Amy Grant, James R. White, J.I. Packer, and Joyce Meyer?
Or like taking a stand that vegetables are tasty?
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:58 pm #
Don’t forget Sean Hannity.
Jugulum on 21 Feb 2008 at 3:01 pm #
And those girls from Sister Sister, Tia and Tamera Mowry.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 21 Feb 2008 at 3:06 pm #
This author assesses Scot McKnight’s analysis in his article:
Are Emerging Church Critics Too Critical?
http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c62.shtml
kyle on 21 Feb 2008 at 3:41 pm #
Thanks for the link to the Scot McKnight article. I hate to interrupt the stream, but if you have any other reading suggestions or helpful links for me (you have my e-mail) I would appreciate it.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 21 Feb 2008 at 4:11 pm #
Here’s excerpts from another pastor’s evaluation of Scot McKnight and the Emerging Movement:
“Scot McKnight grossly understates the influence of postmodern thinking in the Emerging Church movement.
For whatever reason, McKnight hates it when the question of postmodern epistemology comes up in the emerging Conversation—regardless of whether friends or critics are the ones raising the issue.
But most (if not all) of the typical Emerging innovations in ecclesiology and methodology are in fact rooted in the postmodern epistemological shift, and McKnight is simply wrong if he seriously wants to deny that. In fact (and here’s something you will rarely hear me say), on this point, McKnight is wrong and McLaren is right.
Practically everything that makes the Emerging movement distinctive is closely related to postmodernism’s cynical attitude about knowledge and truth—and that includes all five “streams” identified by McKnight.”
From: http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/07/if-lyotard-fits-wear-it.html
Michael DeFazio on 21 Feb 2008 at 5:05 pm #
CMP,
I have found this series supremely helpful. It is one of the best descriptions of the emerging movement that I’ve ever read (another notable one being the work of Ryan Bolger and Eddie Gibbs). I plan on pointing many people to this post when they inquire about the nature of the emerging and Emergent movements (or non-movements, as the case may be). For my part, I must admit that I resonate with certain aspects of all of your descriptive categories. I don’t know whether to be happy or scared! I do find it interesting that those who most openly and strongly oppose the movement seem to refuse to understand it on its own terms. E.g. to evaluate a typically postmodern epistemology as deficient because it doesn’t bode well from the perspective of a typically modern one, or to talk about “truth” (or “TRUTH”) as if we can all automatically understand what that words means to each other, much less Jesus or the apostles. I’m not saying those who use these lines of thinking are wrong, just that they aren’t positioning themselves to really understand or learn from emerging folks.
One thing that I have noticed about emerging folk is something you have talked about some but something to which your models (as helpful as they are) don’t seem to draw attention. Emergers (perhaps I should say we emergers) prefer to hold orthopraxy in equally high regard with orthodoxy. Without recognizing this, it is easy to think of emergers as wishy-washy. Broadly speaking, throughout much of the church’s history questions of what defines the essentials of Christianity have revolved more around belief than practice. This seems out of balance to many of us, and in many cases the marginalization of certain belief-questions is accompanied by a renewed interest in certain practice-questions. This is where, for instance, nonviolence comes in for many of us. We (or a small percentage of us) are pacifists, but our commitment to nonviolence (and subsequent critique of much Christian thinking about politics) is not rooted in a return to secular liberal political ideals, but rather in our reading of what the Scriptures claim it necessarily means to take up our cross, follow Jesus faithfully, and life a life of cross-shaped and resurrection-empowered faith, hope, and love.
Anyhow, those are my thoughts. Once again, I am very grateful for how you have presented these issues!
…
Truth Unites... and Divides on 21 Feb 2008 at 5:34 pm #
Emergers (perhaps I should say we emergers) prefer to hold orthopraxy in equally high regard with orthodoxy. (Michael DeFazio)
(1) So do other historically orthodox Christians.
(2) Scot McKnight refers to ortho-praxis as one of his 5 identifiable streams in the Emerging Movement.
Q: How do you know what is orthopraxy if you don’t know what ortho is, or if you are uncertain what Ortho is? Doesn’t the “ortho” in orthopraxy depend on knowledge of the truth?
As this author writes:
“Practically everything that makes the Emerging movement distinctive is closely related to postmodernism’s cynical attitude about knowledge and truth—and that includes all five “streams†identified by McKnight.â€
From: http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/07/if-lyotard-fits-wear-it.html
Jeffrey on 21 Feb 2008 at 5:36 pm #
On the issue of science, I consider fundamentalists to be more post-modern than emergers.
The typical fundamentalist is a young-earth creationist who thinks that bias and presuppositions are what causes different scientists to think the evidence says different things. In Answers in Genesis’ own words:
“The argument is not about science or about facts – ultimately, the argument is about how you interpret the facts – and this depends upon your belief about history. … We need to understand that there are no such things as brute facts – all facts are interpreted.†(emphasis not added)
In other words, physical evidence is not a sufficient conduit the truth about physical reality. Mainstream scientists react to this in much the same way that fundamentalists react to a claim that there is no Biblical truth, only interpretations of the Bible.
Rick on 21 Feb 2008 at 5:51 pm #
Here are some other helpful links on the emerging church from DJ Chuang:
http://www.djchuang.com/2008/many-kinds-of-emerging-church/
Michael DeFazio on 21 Feb 2008 at 7:36 pm #
Truth…
Thanks for responding. A few thoughts…
(1) I’m not saying non-emergers don’t care about proper Christian behavior; that would be silly. But in traditional circles, the question of who gets to be “in” in terms of essential Christianity more often revolves around questions like “What’s your doctrine of hell?” than “Do you always love your enemies to the point of sacrificing your own life rather than theirs?” And “we emergers” have a problem with this. I’ll speak for myself. While I hold questions of doctrine and truth in high regard in terms of who’s a “Christian”, I hold in equally high regard the question of actual obedience to Jesus’ teachings. And to be honest, I think I do this more than many in traditional camps (at least in theory - I am certainly not perfect!). For instance, is John Calvin a hero or a heretic? Well, he openly supported the live burning of Michael Cervetus. Even if he did say lots of true things, how should we evaluate his quasi-saintly status? Consider that Jesus said the most important teachings were loving God and people, even our enemies. As Greg Boyd wrote here (see also here, “Now follow me: If love is to be placed above all else, if everything else is to be considered worthless apart from love and if everything hangs on fulfilling this one law, how can we avoid the conclusion that refusing to love even our enemies is the worst heresy imaginable? To miss this all important point renders whatever other truth we may possess worthless.” I’m by no means trying to say Calvin was all bad. My overall point is that categorizing emergers on a chart of “orthodoxy” tells only part of the story (even if CMP tells that part extremely well). One last thing: if anyone thinks I’m crazy for even suggesting that Calvin might be rightly termed a “heretic,” that merely reinforces my point.
(2) Good to know.
A: No one is denying what you’re affirming. It’s redundant to point out that I must believe we can know something before knowing what we should do. What I am saying is that in light of what we know, our practices matter every bit as much as our beliefs in terms of authentic allegiance to Christ.
As for your quote, that very well may be, though I’m not sure how it affects the point I’m making.
Again, thanks for the dialogue!
…
Truth Unites... and Divides on 21 Feb 2008 at 7:59 pm #
Michael DeFazio,
You’re welcome.
As for your quote, that very well may be, though I’m not sure how it affects the point I’m making.
My quote was addressing what I may have mistakenly thought was your point. I thought you were stating directly or indirectly that orthopraxy could be separated from orthodoxy.
I’m saying that orthodoxy and orthopraxy are inseparable.
Error in doctrine leads to error in practice. And sound doctrine is based and founded on biblical truth. Postmodernism, and the Emerging Movement’s embrace of postmodernist epistemology, is antithetical and inimical to biblical truth and biblical practice. Why? Because it obscures and obfuscates biblical doctrine.
3 Q’s.
(1) To Emergers: Why is uncertainty and doubt so important to you?
(2) To Non-Emergers: Why is certainty and conviction so important to you?
(3) What is certainty? How do you define certainty? Is there a strawman definition of certainty? If so, how is it employed?
kyle on 21 Feb 2008 at 8:14 pm #
Rick, thanks for the link to D. J. Chuang. I don’t know if it was for me but I greatly appreciate it.
Michael Operacz on 21 Feb 2008 at 8:19 pm #
Michael,
Since you feel that the Emerging “Label” needs so much qualification, maybe you should define your own so that it can start out with a clean slate.
I liked the “Progressive Covenentalist(sm)”.
How about “Progressive Evangelical”?
or better yet… “Emerging Fundamentalist”?
I have been defending you lately and saying that you are really not an emerger, I think your theology is to well grounded for that, but I am beginning to think that maybe you like the “idea” of being an emerger…
Just a thought from a simple layman.
Oh yeah one more thing, don’t forget to fill in the new label on your chart!
C Michael Patton on 21 Feb 2008 at 8:45 pm #
Michael, lol, thanks much. You may be right. I have argued for “historic evangelical” before. I still like it. Maybe it will emerge. You can see it here.
Luke on 22 Feb 2008 at 12:48 am #
TUAD,
I agree that orthodoxy and orthopraxy should be inseparable. However, I don’t believe it is a black and white as you make it out to be. Take, for example, Mother Theresa. We could say her orthodoxy was a little out of whack, but she perhaps had the best orthopraxy of anybody in the last 100 years! In fact, some of the most Christian people as far as how they live their lives that I have known would be considered to be on line of bordering orthodoxy.
Loving God and neighbor are the most important commandments. Also, I agree that a doctrine such as the Trinity or the hypostatic union are important orthodox issues, but honestly, if one doesn’t ascribe to them or teach them does it really make a difference in their orthopraxy? I don’t think so. I think they are important doctrinal issues, but when it comes to living life, they honestly don’t stir people to action.
I only write this to you because every time I bring up how much more important it is that we live right than believe right, I’m always pounded with the same arguments. Let me be clear, I do agree that both are important. Hence, the person who does good deeds but not in the name of Jesus would be considered almost worthless (not completely). However, they do not go hand in hand like most others think. The most orthodox Christians should be the most orthoprax Christians, but in my experience and looking at the lives of others, sadly, this is just not how it is most of the time. It should be, but it’s not.
Also, I don’t think the epistemological structure Michael outlines above is antithetical to biblical truth. I don’t understand how you’re seeing this. Some traits might tend to lean towards relativism, but to outright call it “antithetical” is a bit of a stretch. I could say the same thing of modern or pre-modern epistemology. I think there are many wonderful epistemological methods that Michael describes…some great, and some not so great, but it’s certainly not antithetical.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Feb 2008 at 1:21 am #
Much thanks for the response Luke! I hope you don’t mind me engaging you a bit.
o “…she perhaps had the best orthopraxy of anybody in the last 100 years!.”
How can you “judge” someone’s orthopraxy without some grounding in orthodoxy?
o “Loving God and neighbor are the most important commandments. Also, I agree that a doctrine such as the Trinity or the hypostatic union are important orthodox issues, but honestly, if one doesn’t ascribe to them or teach them does it really make a difference in their orthopraxy?”
Honestly, it may. We are to love God with all our heart, all our MIND, all our soul, and all our strength. If we are to love God TRULY, then we have to know the truths revealed in the Bible.
If we want to worship God from our own distorted misrepresentations of what “love” really means, then we won’t read the Bible, or we’ll ignore what the Bible says because we’re uncertain of Its truth-claims, and then we’ll just worship Him with our own culturally-influenced ideas of what love is and what love means.
Ditto with loving our neighbor.
Doesn’t sound like orthopraxy to me Luke.
o “I think they are important doctrinal issues, but when it comes to living life, they honestly don’t stir people to action.”
Yeah, you’re probably right.
o “I only write this to you because every time I bring up how much more important it is that we live right than believe right, I’m always pounded with the same arguments.”
“I’m always pounded with the same arguments.”
ROTFLOL! Hmmmmm, think there might be an implicit message there?
o “The most orthodox Christians should be the most orthoprax Christians, but in my experience and looking at the lives of others, sadly, this is just not how it is most of the time.”
Are you admitting that you’re being judgmental towards Christians?
Finally, with regards to your last paragraph, I do think postmodern epistemology should not be used to approach Scriptural Truth. It’s rather insulting to the Holy Spirit and His Divine Inspiration of God’s Written Word.
scott gray on 22 Feb 2008 at 5:34 am #
luke–
a fundamentalist and an atheist are working side by side in a soup kitchen, feeding the poor. which is involved in orthopraxy?
–the fundamentalist
–the atheist
–neither
–both
two teenage girls have made the choice to abstain from premarital sex. one is a fundamentalist, and abstains because the church tells her this is the right choice. the other is an atheist, and abstains because she’s analytically done a risk assessment and has concluded through reason that abstention is the smartest choice. which is involved in orthopraxy?
–the fundamentalist
–the atheist
–both
–neither
a fundamentalist and an atheist are friends, and are in the fundamentalist’s church together. the fundamentalist participates in the service by singing becuase he is praising god; the atheist participates in the service by singing out of love and respect for his friend. which is involved in orthopraxy?
–the fundamentalist
-the atheist
–both
–neither
peace–
scott
Eric Stephens on 22 Feb 2008 at 7:02 am #
I wonder if one were to take each of the bullet points above and use them in a survey of sorts how folks would fall out. I tend to lean on the conservative side of theology yet some of the things emphasized in the emerging/emergent movement appeal to me. I think some of the listed items end up in the category of preferences that don’t have doctrinal implications and some might. For example, the meditation/yoga thing can be within the framework of Christianity or it could slip into an idolatry of sorts. Disdain for mega churches may be nothing more than an appreciation for the persecuted state of our earliest brothers and sisters.
And where can I find a church that meets in a brewery? I could probably get ALL my teammates from the office to attend
JoanieD on 22 Feb 2008 at 7:37 am #
First off, I guess the way I would like to be seen is as a disciple of Jesus. I want to learn from, love, know Jesus and do his will. But if pressed for more “labels” I guess I am an emerging evangelical with Catholic leanings. Remember, I was brought up in a loving, Catholic community and though I no longer attend church and I don’t agree with all the Catholic teachings, I am a Catholic “tempermentally.” What I mean by that is that how I grew up, we didn’t wear our religion “on our sleeve” so to speak. If someone was to say “Praise the Lord!” that would have been in bad taste. I think about that and think, “Were we ashamed of our religion, our faith?” and I decide “no.” Instead, we professed our faith in the way we lived our lives, helping one another, loving one another, praying in private and on Sunday we did our public worship during mass. And I have good feelings about the mass too. I liked seeing all the little children trying to play just a little in the pews. And seeing the very much in love, newly married couples. And the old ladies with their rosary beads. And the teens trying not to get caught watching each other. And the nuns trying to keep the teens from watching each other. I liked the readings, the music, the homily, the communion. I am willing to bet that if you took 1000 random Catholics you would find that they only agree with maybe 80 to 90 percent of what the church teaches. I think it is wise that the church hierarchy not look too closely at what its people believe and base letting them stay in the church on those beliefs. And, there may be as many ways of being Catholic as there are Protestant. The groups a Catholic could be a part of could be social justice, comtemplative, Charismatic, teaching, Marriage Encounter, Right To Life, and many more. I don’t know if the church is as filled with people as when I attended, but there were always several hundred people in attendance. Not too many, but not too few. You felt like a family of sorts even if you didn’t really know the others well and maybe didn’t even know the names of some of them. I felt sad for some of my Baptist friends who were not allowed to dance or do some other fun things. I thought it was great that my Congregational Church friends had such a great youth group. I don’t remember feeling like I had to try to make any of my friends be Catholics. They were Christian. That’s what mattered. From looking around the internet, I may fit in with some Episcopalian groups pretty well. So, that’s me.
Joanie D.
JoanieD on 22 Feb 2008 at 8:29 am #
I read McKnight’s article in the online Christianity today and respect and liked what I read.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/11.35.html?start=5
Things I liked best were:
“Unless you proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ, there is no good news at all—and if there is no Good News, then there is no Christianity, emerging or evangelical.”
“So I offer here a warning to the emerging movement: Any movement that is not evangelistic is failing the Lord.”
“I ask my fellow emerging Christians to maintain their missional and ecclesial focus, just as I urge my fellow evangelicals to engage in the social as well. (page 6)”
I think I am an emerger in the way of McKnight and Kimball, but I will read more. And if Moreland is somewhere within the emerging group, I am with him too.
Joanie D.
T on 22 Feb 2008 at 10:27 am #
Divides,
I don’t know if you really caught some of the very significant distinctions that M. Patton has made, especially as it pertains to issues of certainty in general and theology in particular. Many (most?) emergers, particularly those Michael has described as evangelical emergers, are certain about many things (certain enough to act upon them and encourage others to do so), usually all the things included in all the “orthodox” beliefs lists and even additional things. That’s a big point. Most emergers: certain about many things, even theological things, even “orthodox” things.
In fact, much of the movement comes out of what they are certain about. For example, most emergers are convinced that Jesus’ own “essentials” included the commands to love God, neighbor and enemy. We honestly wonder why this teaching is not generally included in lists of “essential right teaching” of Christianity. Not seeing it in such lists makes us wonder what other critical bits have been overlooked. We think some questioning of our own “belief” priorities and even our traditional systematics need review given the teachings that Jesus himself prioritized. We think we’ve lost important bits of what God is offering through Jesus, even what he was offering in the Reformation. So there you have it–certainty on one Jesus-centered thing led to questioning other things.
I hope that there are at least some things, even theological things, that you honestly aren’t totally sure about. If you do have some honest questions about some matters of the faith or about how we’ve prioritized and practiced it, then you can relate to many emergers. If you have total certainty about everything in your knowledge of God (and everything else), then you will have a hard time relating to emergers. Ironically, one could argue emergers have a stronger belief in the depravity of man than non-emergers.
As M. Patton has pointed out above, there many examples of things that some ‘radical’ emergers really question, that more ‘typical’ emergers don’t question. And not all emergers are uncertain about the same things, just as the people of your church vary in what they are certain about and to what degree and when.
To answer your question about “doubt”, I wouldn’t say that “doubt” is all that important to me (or to most emergers), but I would say that it’s very important to me to realize that my ability to know (and yours, and John MacArthur’s, etc.) is both real and limited. That fact prods me to keep learning what’s real and discard what’s false. It convinces me I’m better off with a multitude of counselors. And again, I will still pursue learning, but do so reminding myself that knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
Everyone, even extreme emergers, accept (and practice) that truth, reality, exists, and that we’re all in it. But for a variety of reasons, we’ve gone back to the Man himself and decided to see what, if anything, in the 2000 year history of trusting and implementing his ways, has been distorted, lost, etc., just by inherent human limitations.
Luke on 22 Feb 2008 at 11:02 am #
Scott,
A pastor preaches to his church every Sunday. He tells them the Gospel, preaches the Bible, and gives the altar call. However, he doesn’t do anything outside of the church walls. He never does anything humanitarian, and never loves his neighbor. He never helps a brother in need. Orthodox?
2 men go down to a bar, one a Christian, the other one an atheist. The Christian believes and affirms the substitutionary atonement, inerrancy, hypostatic union, and sovereignty of God. They both get drunk at the bar and the Christian doesn’t tell anybody about Jesus. Orthodox?
Seriously bro, we can come up with stories and scenarios all day. And most of the time it’s just to justify our actions
Peace,
Luke
JoanieD on 22 Feb 2008 at 11:10 am #
T, I like your post #52 very much. You make very good points, especially, “I will still pursue learning, but do so reminding myself that knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.”
Joanie D.
T on 22 Feb 2008 at 11:40 am #
Joanie,
Thank you. I think M. Patton has done a great job with this series, though there’s more to be discussed. If more people look at these things with the same patience, grace and intelligence, there will be a lot less confusion.
Elle (Tracy Simmons) on 22 Feb 2008 at 11:40 am #
Wow, T! You said it all so beautifully in comment #52. Thanks for taking the time to write it!
Tracy
scott gray on 22 Feb 2008 at 12:05 pm #
luke–
my point is, orthopraxy does not flow from, or go hand in hand with, orthodoxy. but a lot of people would like to think they do.
many times, orthopraxy is in spite of orthodoxy. or perhaps, by a different definition, any belief which results in orthopraxy is orthodox.
scott
tscott on 22 Feb 2008 at 2:01 pm #
parchment and pen is a new read for me, since the february 19, 2008 “mapping emerging” appeared on the “Jesus Creed” blog.
definitely standing by this definition…
and it seems our Lord has been working in me in these regards for quite a while
may my reponses to Him be appropriate… not religious, but from true love.
rick on 22 Feb 2008 at 2:03 pm #
Scott #57:
With your statement, “any belief which results in orthopraxy is orthodox”, the word orthopraxy would need to be defined.
I lean more towards Dan Kimball’s take on the orthodoxy/orthopraxy topic:
“But only having right doctrines doesn’t mean that it will always produce Spirit-filled Christians. There are those who have great ORTHODOXY but it never seems to move to their heart and some become legalists and can become very mean Christians. Right beliefs (ORTHODOXY) without the Spirit changing us with those beliefs (even the devil believed there is one God - James 2:19) doesn’t mean we will be a Spirit-filled Christian demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5).
But then the other extreme is having good ORTHOPRAXY (straight or right living/action/practice) but losing ORTHODOXY. We can live good lives, be kind, gentle, help the poor - but we can have that if we join the Peace Corps or even be athiest and have good practice of living. So it has to be both. The Spirit should use ORTHODOXY to produce ORTHOPRAXY. One without the other is not good. I quoted Jesus and how He said “If you love Me, you will obey my commands” and I shared how we have to know what His commands are in order to obey them.”
Michael DeFazio on 22 Feb 2008 at 2:04 pm #
Truth,
I apologize for the confusion. I am not saying that orthodoxy and orthopraxy can be separated at all. In fact, what I am trying to say (perhaps not very well) is that because they indeed cannot, questions of praxis should play a significant if not central role in the debate about the orthodox-ness of emergers. Thanks for helping me clarify.
Postmodern epistemologies are in no way the only thing that leads to the questioning of long-held traditional doctrines. Luther and Calvin certainly weren’t postmodernists, and yet they found the need and the resources to do exactly that. So I guess I dispute the quote, at least as it pertains to our discussion. For many of us, this whole quest begins when we read our Bible and wonder to ourselves how these texts have become those doctrines, or how they have been used to support certain doctrines. Only after this to we come to see that postmodernism has something friendly to offer us. For instance, take the teaching about hell. We read the Gospels in their historical context and wonder how Jesus’ statements about a trash heap outside Jerusalem and his threats to second-temple Jews concerning their impending doom at the hands of the Romans should/can relate to our beliefs about “final judgment.” From this we have to acknowledge that the church has failed to take into account such important questions as these in ordering her doctrines, which makes us suspicious of what exactly was going on in said ordering. I don’t speak for all, but I know that my wrestlings have mostly come out of serious engagement with Scripture.
Uncertainty and doubt are important to me because I care about truth, not because I don’t, and because I recognize that at best we know in part, as if we were looking only at a reflection as in a (first-century) mirror. We should thus be careful to claim that we have the Truth, considering all the other factors that play into our perception. Uncertainty and doubt are also important to me because of where I happened to fall within history. I have inherited an intellectual and theological tradition that aimed for absolute certainty in an all-encompassing system of belief and practice, one that tried to be universal in all respects. I perceive this as arrogance, so uncertainty and doubt are the tools with which I am for appropriate intellectual humility. And uncertainty and doubt are important to me because in the name of this system, and more broadly in the name of the Truth “we” possess, all sorts of ungodly and unchristlike things have been done to those who disagree or don’t fit into the system. Honestly, we’re just trying to reflect the image of God as manifested in his one and only Son, Jesus Christ, and we feel that traditional ways of perceiving and attempting to accomplish this task have hurt as much as helped, and we are convinced that without uncertainty and doubt we will very likely repeat the same mistakes. Sorry for the mental explosion, but that is a very disconnected apologia for why I, for one, value uncertainty and doubt.
I think your questions are very good and extremely important. I would love to hear your answers to the last two, particularly the second.
…
JohnO on 22 Feb 2008 at 3:10 pm #
As a relative newcomer to this blog (a matter or weeks) and as one coming from the UK, I find the fixation on labels fascinating (not that it doesn’t happen here either, I have to say, just that people seem less bothered about it). Many of the labels you (in the US) seem to adopt are found over here but seem to mean quite different things - or at least aren’t quite so delineated as they appear there.
As for sitting or standing, I find myself hovering. I would find myself agreeing with much of what you would ascribe to emergers, yet wouldn’t accept the label. It seems to me that it’s just another way of describing a church which seeks to honour God in as many accessible ways as possible. If I were to accept a label it might be something like a “moderate evangelical with liberal tendencies and charismatic yearnings”. Which, arguably, simply goes to show the nonsense of labels.
I think it’s important to remember that the vocal minority (for any given ‘label’) are just that - a minority. The vast majority of ministers/pastors/leaders are almost certainly a pick-n-mix variety of every label. As for the average congregational member - that’s simply even more diversity. Ministers (certainly in the UK) are much too busy simply trying to shepherd a diverse flock with limited resources to spend time ‘buying-in’ to the latest label. They will use whatever means is at their disposal, within their ministerial integrity, to ensure that that flock understands even a little of what the label (and the only one that counts) Christian actually means.
Great series of articles though and plenty of food for thought.
Thank you.
John
Minnowspeaks on 22 Feb 2008 at 3:21 pm #
T–# 52 well said. # 55 AMEN!
scott gray on 22 Feb 2008 at 3:53 pm #
rick#59–
why would you think an atheist couldn’t have right beliefs, if right beliefs lead to right practice? by your definition, right beliefs can only happen within the context of your religious paradigm. yet right practice goes on outside your religious paradigm all the time. how can this be, if right practice can only happen from right beliefs?
scott
Luke on 22 Feb 2008 at 4:01 pm #
Scott,
I agree, that was actually the point I was making in my first post that you reacted to. I thought you were making the opposite statement which is why I said the things I did.
It sounds nice to say that we can’t have right praxis without right belief, but experientially, this is just not the case. Like I said before, it should be, but it’s not. In fact, probably the most charitable, hospitable, humanitarian people I know are not Christians…or at least not orthodox ones. Is there a problem with this? Yeah. I actually think we can blame part of it on the reformation with it’s cry against works. Hence, Evangelicals are so scared of works salvation that all we do now is evangelize, read our Bibles, or listen to sermons. Sad sad sad.
scott gray on 22 Feb 2008 at 4:28 pm #
luke–
sorry we got it wrong. i often come out of the gate strong, and in a confusing direction…
as you can see from my next comment, the answer to all three of my scenarios, in my world view, is ‘both.’
i work side by side in a soup kitchen with several atheists, and i consider their behavior right behavior. their motivation is not congruent with mine, but obviously overlaps enough with mine to share time together on the soup kitchen. if what i do in the soup kitchen is motivated by right belief, i must believe theirs is, too–just not the same belief as mine. i won’t belittle, discard, or assume less worthy, their motivation to mine. if my motivation is in response to orthodoxy is working in the soup kitchen, i have to assume their motivation is also rooted in some kind of othrodoxy, even if it has nothing to do with jesus. god is much bigger than my expectations and lists of rules.
that’s what i meant…
peace–
scott
Truth Unites... and Divides on 22 Feb 2008 at 6:13 pm #
JoanieD,
That was a very powerful and instructive post in #50. Thanks for sharing. Although you probably didn’t intend it so, it rather saddened me on some points.
Some feedback:
First off, I guess the way I would like to be seen is as a disciple of Jesus.
Great! Now do you think Jesus and the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent would want their disciples to be uncertain on how to be a follower and disciple of Jesus? Tentative disciples because they were uncertain about the truths and doctrines as revealed by the Inspired Book of God.
Look at the history of disciples all over the world. Many of them have suffered and died for the glory of God. They did so because they had sufficient certainty in the Living and Written Word of God.
Does an uncertain, doubting disciple who propagates and teaches others to be uncertain and doubting in their faith too glorify and honor Jesus?
I am willing to bet that if you took 1000 random Catholics you would find that they only agree with maybe 80 to 90 percent of what the church teaches. I think it is wise that the church hierarchy not look too closely at what its people believe and base letting them stay in the church on those beliefs.
I don’t think your example is limited to just the Catholic church. This is the part that saddens me somewhat. Two reasons for my lament over what I think is an accurate observation on your part. One, I believe that Scripture does command and call His undershepherds to care and love their flock enough to look at what the sheep under his pastoral care believe and do. An undershepherd cares about each one of the sheep in his charge. If a sheep starts wandering off to where it’s dangerous or if a sheep is getting to close to where wolves are, then the undershepherd has to know this if he truly loves and cares and wants to protect his sheep. The second reason I’m saddened is because you and probably many others too think it’s wise for the undershepherd not to look to closely at what the sheep believe and do. The type of pastoral practice that you admire for not looking closely at what the flock believes seems to be worldly wisdom. I do not see it as wisdom from the Bible.
That’s what mattered. From looking around the internet, I may fit in with some Episcopalian groups pretty well. So, that’s me.
Cool. Be you. Take it for what it’s worth… I do have some knowledge of TEC and the Anglican Communion and they are going through some tremendous internal turmoil. So please be careful. My lightly-held impression is that you’re into “inclusivism” and that you’re exploring and flirting with Universal Reconciliation or some form of Universalism. Again, be careful.
Please bear in mind that the Father of Lies can counterfeit love and that the Lord of Darkness loves to “love” people into Hell. (That is, if you happen to believe in Hell.)
P.S. Jesus spoke on the topic of Hell more than any other person in the New Testament.
Pax.
JoanieD on 22 Feb 2008 at 7:29 pm #
Thanks for your response, TU&D. My use of the word “wise” in my post was a poor choice of words. I should have said something more like, “If the leaders of the Catholic Church made 100% adherence to their teachings a requirement to be Catholic and then asked all their parishioners if they agreed 100%, their churches and their coffers would be much emptier.” I could leave it to the reader whether that would be a “wise” choice or not. And they could decide whether it was wise in “God’s eyes” or in “men’s eyes” or both.
And yes, I do know about the turmoil in the Anglican Communion. And I do actually appreciate your warning. It is a danger that we will find the “group” that we want to find to support the errors that we are making. But, believe it or not, I DO use the scriptures to guide me in deciding what is true, who is teaching truth, etc. That’s why I have not committed to the idea of Christian Reconciliation. I see that lots of passages in the Bible would have to be understood in a different light than I was originally taught. But I am willing to listen to and read the folks who think Christian Reconcilation is possible. Even if I don’t end up agreeing with them, I will at least understand where they are coming from.
Joanie D.
Rick on 23 Feb 2008 at 9:53 am #
Scott #63-
But the atheist does not do those actions because he loves the Lord his God with all his heart, soul, strength, and mind. Not to mention Christ said in John 15:4-5:
“Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5″I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing ”
Again, one would have to define orthopraxy. Apparently motivation is a factor and it seems to be more than just doing good/nice things.
Hell! | OrrWhat? on 25 Feb 2008 at 7:04 am #
[...] reading the Parchment and Pen Blog. They’ve recently been running a series on how one might characterise ‘emergent/emerging church’. One of the series of articles took a bit of a tangent in the comments section and it was here that [...]
Scott S on 25 Feb 2008 at 11:09 pm #
Michael Patton,
Thank you for this most helpful series. The categorization and defining of emerging/emergent characteristics provides excellent tools to think about emergers and to dialog with them.
I was surprised to see that according to your definitions, that I have some slightly emerging characteristics in each of the five ways of emerging (from Part 5). For example: a willingness to be flexible in forms of worship, willingness to question personal traditions at the deepest level, missional focus, and focus on bringing about justice.
I see these as contending for the freedom and the responsibility we have in Christ, and not getting stuck in some old denomination based restrictions.
Is it really the case that most evangelicals don’t hold at least a few of these slightly emerging characteristics? For instance, I bet Donald Carson believes that the church is us, the body, and not primarily a building we go to.
Michael, you identify yourself in the chart as partially emerging. What emerging characteristics do you have that put you there?
Also, what emerging characteristics do you see in Dallas Willard? Are they only slightly emerging?
Finally, do you see Spiritual Formation, Willard/Boa style, as a way of being emerging?
Thanks in advance,
Scott
C Michael Patton on 25 Feb 2008 at 11:20 pm #
Scott, you are exactly right. Much of the “emerging” ethos is shared with Evangelicalism. I would say that I agree, at least to some degree, with almost all of the characteristics of emerging, while standing far away from the characteristics of Emergent.
As for D.A. Carson, I think that he would agree with many of these characteristics too.
I think most non-emerging or anti-emerging types are just worried that the focus on these issues eventually leads to the relativising of truth all-togther. I don’t see why this is necessary.
Dallas Willard would fit in with those characteristics that emphasize the spiritual formation (listed under ecclesiology) as would Boa. But I would not see Boa fitting well either epistomologically or theologically, but I could be wrong.
Thanks for commenting.
Guillaume Smit on 04 Apr 2008 at 10:45 pm #
Hi Michael
I liked your post so much I posted it on my own blog (with credit and links, of course).
i hope you don’t mind.
Sincerely
Guillaume Smit