Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? Part 1
How does one define the emerging church? This is not an easy question to answer. Are you emerging? Maybe you are and you just don’t know it. It is very difficult to define exactly what it means to “emerge.” Sometimes its characteristics sound a lot like what “Evangelical” used to mean. Other times it sounds just like “Liberal.” Often it is hard to distinguish from neo-orthodox or even Eastern Orthodox. Many would just say that emergers are Christian Democrats!
If you compare yourself to a personality to determine whether you are emerging, it is no better. To whom do you choose to compare yourself? Brian McLaren? Doug Pagitt? Dan Kimball? Mark Driscoll?
1. If you go with Brian McLaren, then you may view “emerging” as somewhat of a political revolution.
2. If you go with Doug Pagitt, then you may see “emerging” as the hope of God’s redemption through a sort of quasi-universalism.
3. If you go with Dan Kimball, then you see “emerging” as a mission to win the lost with the essential message of the Gospel through kindness and understanding (sounds a bit like evangelicalism).
4. If you go with Mark Driscoll, then you may find it hard to distinguish “emerging” from a missional minded reformed evangelicalism.
Maybe its not that simple, but my point is that most of these fellows don’t seem like bed-fellows. In other words, it is hard to find the least common denominator with regards to their emerging distinction. They all call themselves emergers, but I don’t think that Driscoll would be too fond of being identified with Pagitt or McLaren. Kimball and Driscoll maybe, Pagitt and McLaren maybe, but not all of them together. It is hard to find the connection. If all of these guys are emerging, then what does emerging mean? Would the real emerger please stand up?
Part of the reason I write this post is because I just finished John MacArthur’s Truth War. While I really appreciate much of MacArthur’s work, I did not find this book helpful with regards to the emerging issue. In fact, I found it very unbalanced and ill-informed. He simply focused on one thought of one strand of the emerging “movement.” He did not distinguish between those who were guilty of his charges from those who were not. In this he mischaracterized many people and the movement as a whole. He choose one strand of emerging and presumed to attack the entire ununited movement as if it were united.
I also write this because I was recently identified as an emerger (which was news to me) by some of the more antagonist anti-emergers at a Bible conference. More importantly, I was placed along side of McLaren and Pagitt as a significant influence in the emerging movement. I did not see the connection at all.
I think it is important for us to recognize that there are many types of emergers. Let me attempt to give some perspective.
First, I think that it is important to distinguish between two meta-strands of emergers. Some would separate those that are emerging and those that are Emergent. I think this works well and is becoming more and more accepted. Emergent would be the more theologically liberal minded group of emergers. These are those that MacArthur went after with gloves off.
 If you were to graph this out, adding a section for fundamentalism and liberalism, it would look something like this.

Notice there is overlap in many of these areas. There is an overlap of traditional evangelicalism and emerging. There is an overlap of Emergent and liberal. There is also an overlap between fundamentalism and Evangelicalism. Traditional orthodoxy might be found in a balance between the extremes.
Here is how I would chart many of the popular emergers.
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Notice, I would place many emergers outside the bounds of orthodoxy—at least as it has been seen from a historic Christian standpoint. The reason being is that they deny many aspects of historic Christianity. Among other things, either their doctrine of judgment, the exclusivity of Christ, the atonement, or even theistic worldview is contrary to that of the historic Christian faith. Some would even deny or call into question just about every foundational doctrine to the Christian faith.
Don’t misunderstand the chart. D.A. Carson represents the best of traditional Evangelical scholarship. But being in the middle does not necessarily mean that I believe that he is more orthodox than Dan Kimball. He is just less emerging! John MacArthur is to the far left, not because he is in danger of stepping outside of traditional Evangelicalism into a heterodox form of fundamentalism, but because he is more fundamental and less emerging than the others. McLaren is right on the line between emerging and Emergent.
Well, thus far I have simply meant to communicate the defining “emerging” is not a simple task. The one thing that I would immediately caution people on is this: don’t lump all those who call themselves “emerging” into the same category reserved for heretics. We have to be more responsible than this. It is unfair and could damage people’s reputation. If you were to do this, how is that any less an evil than the evil you may be accusing them of?
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- Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? Part 1
- Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up - Part 4 - Comparing Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, and Emergers
- Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? - Part 5 - Are You Emerging?
- Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? Part 3 - An Emerging Definition of “Emerging”
- Am I Emerging?

C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 12:32 am #
Please understand that I only charted a small representative group of emerging leaders.
Nathan on 15 Feb 2008 at 12:47 am #
Really helpful post with the graph. You could probably break it down further into soteriology, eschatology, ecclesiology, etc and you would have different placements depending on the area.
IMHO I would not put McManus, McLaren, or Miller outside orthodoxy. I think for instance the atonment issue has been controversial…but we have to realize the current theory held by many was not for quite some time in church history.
Cheers.
C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 1:34 am #
Thanks Nathan, I will break it down into four different categories. I look forward to your imput there.
McManus, McLaren, and Miller are all asking good questions. I just think that they have been flying so long that any thought of landing has faded from their agenda. Therefore, it is not simply a denial of doctrines, but the inability to take a stand. As well, staying in their air has become their stand, which, to me, is very problematic.
*Note: I changed where Miller and McManus stand, having been persuaded by others.
bethyada on 15 Feb 2008 at 5:27 am #
Don’t know if I agree with your graph. I consider myself possibly fundamentalist (but a thinking one), and I think that Driscoll (what little I know of him) has some pretty conservative thoughts. Despite my self positioning I would imagine I have much more in common with Driscoll than MacArthur. And where do the Pentcostals fit in?
Driscoll coauthored a book with Pagitt didn’t he (well both wrote a section anyway).
steve martin on 15 Feb 2008 at 6:37 am #
Thanks Michael. Helpful as always.
JoanieD on 15 Feb 2008 at 6:39 am #
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310271355/doupag-20
That book discusses the various “varieties” of emegers. It’s interesting that Driscoll and Pagitt are both authors in the book, because from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Pagitt I read that
“Pagitt has been severely criticized by many conservative Evangelicals, including church planter and pastor Mark Driscoll.”
I will read more about them later. I very likely fit in there somewhere. Not with Driscoll, though. I have listened to a couple of his sermons online and he’s not what I am, I would say.
Nice charts, Michael!
Joanie D.
dac on 15 Feb 2008 at 7:25 am #
Which Bible Conference was that, Mr. P?
As to Dr. M, I think I understand where he is coming from. The far right of the spectrum (love how you put the liberals on the right and the conservatives on the left in you chart!) has gone so far from Christianity as to be heretical and even apostate, that I think it is important to stay clear of association.
I would prefer to defend evangelicalism, and stand there.
terry on 15 Feb 2008 at 7:36 am #
Is it so important to determine who is what and what camp of thought each and everyone might fit into ?are we looking for a magical bullet to stand behind ? I would have thought the Lord’s Church would have cleared up most of the issues in the beginning or at least within the first 100 years .The scripture is silent on certain things and the Church has been wrong on many or so history would suggest …If we have a emerging Church than I suppose that we have a emerging apostate church …can it be defined or recognized and what does it look like ? maybe we should stop or at least slow down long enough to think about what it is we are thinking about ….maybe the emerging Church is developing a touch of A.D.D ..Were the first peoples liberal or conservative ? Do we really need to make or try to put a political description on the Church and then ask what camp we want to divide ourselves into …I think the Lord has given us the foundation on which He is building on and I think it encompasses much …another wedge in the great divide will not bring us closer to unity …sorry if I offend anyone and excuse my rant …terry
Dr Mike on 15 Feb 2008 at 8:49 am #
Terry:
I think Michael’s post is more for the equipping Christians to be discerning than it is to relegate people and groups to certain positions or “camps” on a continuum. As such, it is an informative and therefore edifying way to think about all the different movements and philosophies posing as orthodox Christianity.
Scripture makes it clear that believers cannot be ignorant or naive when it comes to assessing belief systems. The epistles were largely written to refute mistaken notions about what Christianity is and isn’t. The church in our time is threatened by similar error and we need to be as diligent as were the “cloud of witnesses” in their day.
Re “a political description on the Church”: the terms “conservative” and “liberal” lend themselves to far more than just political philosophies. I don’t think Michael was assigning political labels, though his early comment about “Christian democrats” may have led you to think he was.
As far as it being a rant, your comment was mild and almost timid. Little danger exists that you would offend any of the theologically minded focus that wander through this field. Most of us are pretty thick-skinned, on the one hand, or sufficiently humble, on the other, and it thus takes quite a bit to upset us. So while your concern is appreciated, I don’t think you’ve given offense (although some might take offense).
Eric on 15 Feb 2008 at 8:50 am #
Thank you for the graph - very helpful.
It seems disaffected evangelicals are leaving - some swim the Tiber, some walk the Wittenberg trail, and others swim the Bosphorus. However, many are now joining emergent/emerging groups.
I wonder if the emergent/emerging movements are fads or trends. I guess only time will tell.
Drawing Lines » The Upward Way Press on 15 Feb 2008 at 9:20 am #
[...] C. Michael Patton draws some lines: Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? [...]
The Boar’s Head Tavern » Drawing Lines on 15 Feb 2008 at 9:22 am #
[...] Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up?, C Michael Patton Posted by: Randy @ 9:22 am | Trackback | Permalink [...]
Eric W on 15 Feb 2008 at 9:33 am #
You mean like the way he used old and out-of-context quotes to attack and mischaracterize and lump together Charismatics in his book(s) about them? ;^)
Grub on 15 Feb 2008 at 10:19 am #
About three years ago, after recognizing that my own local evangelical church had jumped the missional shark (so to speak), I took a detour into the emerging church. I read a few books, went to some local services, and even wrote a few pieces for the OOZE and ginkworld. What finally made me realize that I couldn’t be a part of that particular strain of the movement was reading Spencer Burke’s book,”The Heretics Guide to Eternity”. It seemed like he was deconstructing all of orthodox chirstianity for the sake of postmodern philosophy. I couldn’t do that. Kudos to those who can do that and come out the other end with their faith in Jesus stronger.
I think what you are arguing for, and making the distinction between, could be catergorized as those who want to be emergent more than they want to be emergent Christians (and I do believe the latter category exists)!
Richard on 15 Feb 2008 at 10:30 am #
Michael - Driscoll, Kimball, and Koukl all distinguish between “emerging” and “emergent”. One is good, the other bad. Note that Spencer Burke published a book questioning the Trinity and McLauren endorsed it. That would put you outside of orthodoxy to be sure.
Driscoll came out of emerg* when he saw them going whack. He now speaks very frankly and openly against Rob Bell and others.
Rob on 15 Feb 2008 at 10:45 am #
I am curious, where would you place Rob Bell on this spectrum?
JohnT3 on 15 Feb 2008 at 10:48 am #
So what are you saying Michael?
MacArthur used quotes from the people he dealt with in the book “The Truth War”, Were they accurate quotes?
Did the people MacArthur quoted say what they are listed as saying?
C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:26 am #
Rob, I don’t really know enough about Rob Bell to put him one place or another. Where would you place him?
richards on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:30 am #
Regarding Bell, there are pastors that I trust very much who place him at the wrong end. See C. J. Mahaney’s recent post (http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Blog/post/Rob-Bell2c-the-Pastore28099s-Task-of-Discernment2c-and-My-Heart.aspx), as well as D. A. Carson, and Mark Dever.
I’ve also seen a couple of his Nooma videos to know that I do agree with CJ/DA/Mark, and not with Bell.
C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:31 am #
John, I am sure that the quotes are accurate, but his broad-brushing of all things emerging was what I believe is irresponsible. He only focused on a couple of people (primarily McLaren) and identified the whole group with particular stances of this one strand of emerging. The emerging movement is not monolithic enough to do such things.
It would be like someone from the outside criticizing Evangelical Christianity and using Joel Osteen as his primary source for this criticism.
Ruben on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:35 am #
I have been attending Mosaic, Erwin Mcmanus’ church here in L.A. for many months and I have yet to hear him say something liberal or denying essential Christian doctrine. If anything the preaching I hear is classic Southern Baptist with a different attitude: mainly a focus on the arts and an emphasis on the Biblical teachings on kindness and compassion. He seems to be reading and teaching the Bible with all his emotions, rather than just his head and that is how he comes across - as passionate and real.
Personally I am not a fan of anyone, only Jesus but these classifications just drive me nuts. I understand the need to identify false teaching and some emergent leaders are about to or have crossed the line, but don’t we ignore Jesus when we classify people like this. I could be right in the middle of classical evangelicalism but have no connection to Jesus at all - only right theology. And I would be worse off for it.
dac on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:37 am #
You attacked the divine Dr. M.
You have just confirmed you are an emergent heretic
(no, not really. But I am willing to bet it will be blogged by others that way)
And I really would like to know which bible conference put you in the “eeevvviiillll” camp
C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:40 am #
Dac, I would rather not say. It was simply a paper that was forwarded on to me. Others heard the paper being read and also informed me of it.
Jugulum on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:45 am #
It would be like someone from the outside criticizing Evangelical Christianity and using Joel Osteen as his primary source for this criticism.
Michael,
I’m not sure that’s the best analogy–McClaren seems to hold more of a position of influence within the emerging movement/conversation/whatever at large than Osteen does within evangelicalism. You’re implicitly minimizing McClaren’s influence more than (as far as I can see) is strictly correct.
But that’s somewhat of a nitpick. You could choose another name and the point of your analogy would hold–maybe John Piper? (A lot of evangelicals look up to him, but others might not want evangelicalism to be characterized by him. Some people don’t like his “Christian hedonism,” for instance. Or maybe Piper is too well-liked to be a good parallel. I don’t know.)
C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:46 am #
Ruben, thanks for the comments and the testimony. I am glad to hear what you had to say.
You said: “I could be right in the middle of classical evangelicalism but have no connection to Jesus at all - only right theology. And I would be worse off for it.”
Amen. We need to have balance. I have seen others doing all the right things for all the wrong reasons as well. We need to be doing the right things (orthopraxy) for the right reasons (orthodoxy). Neglecting either is not exemplifying Christ much. Would you agree?
C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:48 am #
Jug, good point. Thanks.
Ruben on 15 Feb 2008 at 12:25 pm #
Yes, I agree. We have to love God with our hearts as well as our minds. Sometimes theology just becomes a hobby and people only focus on it and forget the main reason for our faith - we believe in a Person and not some facts about that Person. We need the facts to make sure we get Him right.
dac on 15 Feb 2008 at 12:56 pm #
Jug
over 15,000 people attend J.O.’s church - how many attend BMs church?
JO has a weekly TV show watched by millions, How many watch BM’s show? That’s right, he doesn’t have one.
JO’s books have sold far more than BM/s have?
So - just who is more influential?
BM gets more attention from Fundies, sure.
But for the majority of America? JO is clearly the number one, most influential “Christian”
and I want no one to be making JO the poster boy for Evangelical America
Jugulum on 15 Feb 2008 at 1:10 pm #
Michael,
So, with regards to the Orthodox circle in your chart, you’re saying that there are no degrees of orthodoxy within the circle. Anything inside is just “orthodox”. Someone’s relative position inside your circle doesn’t say anything about whether or not they’re close to falling into heresy. Is that right?
Are you intending to say that there’s no such thing as degrees of orthodoxy? No such thing as being in danger of stepping outside into heterodoxy? Or are you just saying that your chart doesn’t classify people that way?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 15 Feb 2008 at 1:15 pm #
I write this post is because I just finished John MacArthur’s Truth War. While I really appreciate much of MacArthur’s work, I did not find this book helpful with regards to the emerging issue. In fact, I found it very unbalanced and ill-informed. He simply focused on one thought of one strand of the emerging “movement.†He did not distinguish between those who were guilty of his charges from those who were not. In this he mischaracterized many people and the movement as a whole. He choose one strand of emerging and presumed to attack the entire ununited movement as if it were united.
I also write this because I was recently identified as an emerger (which was news to me) by some of the more antagonist anti-emergers at a Bible conference. More importantly, I was placed along side of McLaren and Pagitt as a significant influence in the emerging movement. I did not see the connection at all.
FWIW, some observations:
(1) Emergent/Emerging/Emergers make the very same error that you harshly accuse John MacArthur of making. You say that Emergers are not monolithic, and therefore, it’s grossly wrong for MacArthur to criticize the whole movement as if it were.
C’mon dude. Be consistent. I have read McLaren do the same thing, but in the opposite direction. Conservative historic evangelicals are not monolithic either. Yet McLaren criticizes and slams conservative historic evangelicals as a monolithic whole without nuancing and distinguishing the various differences within historic evangelicalism.
You are imbalanced in your criticism towards MacArthur because you have failed to make the same criticism towards McLaren.
(2) MacArthure is judging, constructively criticizing, and/or making discernments about those who would weaken biblical truth.
You are judging, constructively criticizing, and/or making discernments about John MacArthur’s work on “The Truth War”. (Incidentally, I read the book too).
In sum, you are judging John MacArthur’s judging.
(3) With regards to whether you are an Emerger or not… beats me. I don’t know. I’m interested in a different aspect of the question: How does one go about making accurate definitions?
Do you accept someone else’s proclamation and self-definition of who they are? (Eg., Mormons proclaim and define themselves as Christians.)
Or are there some more objective measures that are more useful in establishing a definition?
If I read your post above correctly, you define an Emerger as someone who’s outside the bounds of historic orthodoxy because they deny many aspects of historic Christianity. Let me drill deeper into your use of the verb “deny”.
What if Emergers deny that they deny historical Christian doctrines?
What if they say something like, “We don’t deny, nor affirm many historic Christian doctrines. We simply say we don’t know. We think this is the more humble, Christ-like position to take on these divisive historic Christian doctrines. So it’s a false statement to say that we “deny” these doctrines. Because we don’t technically deny them. We simply say that we’re unsure because Jesus is love. And love wants us to be united to each other. And doctrine divides, while love unites. So CMP, please don’t make the allegation that we “deny” historic Christian doctrine, because we technically don’t.”
C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 1:28 pm #
Truth, not sure what perspective you are coming from, but you seem to have misread the intent of this post. It is not to evaluate individuals in the emerging church necessarily, but to demonstrate that you cannot lump emergers into one monolithic group.
I am sure that people do that with others as well and I know that McLaren does that with Fundamentalist and Evangelicals, but it is not my purpose here to evaluate them. Otherwise the post would be titled “Would the Real Evangelical Please Stand Up.” I am sure that you could write a great post on your blog about such, and I have done so in the past as well, but this is not our purpose here.
Many of the emergers of the Emergent distinction would admit to denying traditional Christianity. It is not my intent to evaluate the traditional view of Scripture, authorial intent hermeneutics, the nature of God, the nature of revelation, the doctrine of the atonement, or the exclusivity of Christ. Simply to show than many of the Emergent thought do not hold to traditional views of such, and they would admit to it.
“In sum, you are judging MacArthur’s judgment.”
I don’t see where I have said I was not. Obviously I am. I think he has handled the issue irresponsibly by broad-brushing the movement and associating all in it with the more radical variety. Again, I really like MacArthur and appreciate all that he has done, I just wish he would have handled this more responsibly. Just my opinion, but if you disagree you will have to deal with my main thesis: “Not all emergers are alike, therefore one should not evaluate the group by the least orthodox representatives.”
If you don’t believe he has, you are welcome to show the evidence. I am open to change. Until then, my judgment of his poor work on the issue stands.
Thanks for contributing.
C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 1:36 pm #
Jug, not at all. I have written about the different levels or types of Orthodoxy here. Hope that helps.
C Michael Patton on 15 Feb 2008 at 1:37 pm #
Got to go for a while. Be back later. Keep the conversation gentle while I am gone
Jugulum on 15 Feb 2008 at 1:38 pm #
TUaD,
Here are some thoughts about your points, in order.
(1) Why do you think Michael doesn’t criticize McLaren for broadbrushing historical evangelicals? Michael didn’t happen to do so in this post, but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t, if he were analyzing McLaren.
(2) Michael is not judging MacArthur for judging. He is judging how John MacArthur judged. (Mind you, I haven’t read Truth War, so I don’t know whether Michael is correct that MacArthur broad-brushed.)
(3) An excellent question. That kind of incipient (and insipid) post-modernism is indeed a (the?) major problem with much of the emerging movement.
FYI, though, Michael partly answered it above, in comment #3:
“McManus, McLaren, and Miller are all asking good questions. I just think that they have been flying so long that any thought of landing has faded from their agenda. Therefore, it is not simply a denial of doctrines, but the inability to take a stand. As well, staying in their air has become their stand, which, to me, is very problematic.”
(Myself, I’m not sure how much I’d agree with the first sentence.
)
Jugulum on 15 Feb 2008 at 1:43 pm #
Michael,
I figured, I just wanted to make sure it was clear to everyone that you weren’t saying there’s no such thing as being close to heresy–instead, you were saying that you just weren’t dealing with it in your chart.
James Diggs on 15 Feb 2008 at 2:08 pm #
I think it is interesting that evangelism is the center of orthodoxy on the chart. Not only is evangelicalism not that old historically speaking but things like catholicism or eastern orthodox churches are not even on the chart.
As long as we use our own evangelical lens as our exclusive measuring stick for historical orthodoxy we may not recognize the areas in which we normally consider off target (whether fundamentalism/ conservative or emergent/ liberal) that may actually in reality be more orthodox.
This article and chart seems to track evangelical orthodoxy more so that historical Christian orthodox. It is not that evangelicalism doesn’t fit within orthodoxy, I just think we need to be careful before we crown ourselves the center of Christian orthodoxy. If we do this our view of the orthodoxy of other Christian beliefs practices and traditions may be skewed.
dac on 15 Feb 2008 at 2:18 pm #
good observation J.D.
I often think those of us in the reformed crowd see all of Christianity within those spheres (reformed = those who faith is rooted in the reformation, Lutherans, protestants, bapdists and the like)
I certainly have that tendency
Truth Unites... and Divides on 15 Feb 2008 at 2:26 pm #
“In sum, you are judging MacArthur’s judgment.†(TUaD)
“Obviously I am.” (CMP)
Cool. Just want to make it explicitly clear that you are being judgmental too.
With regards to your main thesis, I have two observations:
(1) Have you ever considered “space limitations” when reading and critiquing a newspaper or magazine article?
For example, I occasionally read newspaper articles and blog posts that are insufficiently nuanced and differentiated. Do I get unreasonably upset because of it?
NO. I do not. Because I charitably give grace and extend the benefit of the doubt because there may be concerns by the author about writing too long of an article.
Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps John MacArthur was thinking that his book was long enough already. That he may have thought that any additional nuance and differentiation he might add would be considered excessive and boring for many readers of his book?
(2) You’ve got a wild hair bothering you about what you perceive as an unwarranted extrapolation by John MacArthur from Brian McLaren to the entire Emerging movement. Whatever.
For discussion sake, let’s give you the point that you desperately want to make.
My question to you then, would be: “Do you agree with Dr. MacArthur’s critiques of Brian McLaren, as it relates to Brian McLaren only?”
The Boar’s Head Tavern » on 15 Feb 2008 at 2:29 pm #
[...] Patton’s Venn diagram that Randy [...]
Alden on 15 Feb 2008 at 2:37 pm #
It seems that some evangelicals tend to categorize anyone who challenges the status quo of evangelicalism as “emerging.” Technically, I suppose that is true, although the term “emerging” now tends to apply only to a certain segment of American evangelicals who are influenced either by a derivative of post-modernist thought, or by non-American-evangelicals like NT Wright or Eastern Orthodoxy.
As a non-evangelical living among the evangelicals, it seems to me that many of the emerging/emergent folks are firmly rooted in evangelicalism & modernism (in spite of the occasional use of the term “post-modernism”). Some, as you have shown in your diagram, may be swimming in heretical (non-orthodox) waters.
However, there are others who are reaching back (such as Robert Webber) to a pre-modern spirituality. They often have similar criticisms of evangelicalism, which makes them appear to be in the “emerging” camp.
By the way, I think your diagram demonstrates a very narrow, American evangelical outlook. I would replace the label “orthodox Christianity” with “evangelicalism.” I don’t think the whole of orthodoxy is represented in the chart.
James Diggs on 15 Feb 2008 at 2:42 pm #
Thanks Alden, that is what I was trying to say. I also think your Robert Weber example is a good one; which is someone many emergent pastors are gravitating too. I think it would be difficult not to see this emphasis as orthodox- certainly is more orthodox than most American evangelical settings when it comes to having a good theology of worship.
Peace,
James
Jugulum on 15 Feb 2008 at 3:38 pm #
dac,
Oh, sure, Osteen is more influential in America than McLaren is. I wasn’t talking about being influential in America in general–I was talking about how influential Osteen is among evangelicals vs. how influential McLaren is among emergers.
My first thought was this: Among evangelicals, Osteen’s preaching is widely seen as the vacuous, pseudochristian prosperity non-gospel that it is. (*sigh* Sorry, he gets under my skin.) The strength of Osteen’s influence comes less from evangelicals than from pop self-help culture. But among emergers, McLaren really does have more significance.
I might be overly optimistic about Osteen’s lack of influence, I suppose. And I might be wrong about the strength of McLaren’s influence. But that’s what I meant.
Pete Heiniger on 15 Feb 2008 at 5:05 pm #
I have a question. If some of you feel qualified to critique either McArthur or McLaren - or Driscoll or Kimball - etc.
Do you feel qualified to love them?
Do you feel a criticism or critique is a way to bring an erring brother or sister back to where they “need” to be?
You had a commenter make the same point we see in 1 Corinthians 13 - we can have it all down (although I will admit I don’t) and lack love and then we’re just religious noise.
Who were the “right” practicers in Jesus’ earthly ministry? Did he make his ministry more towards them or to those who had heart after him, while their current reputation was sinful?
I’ve come out of two groups of fundamentalists and I can only speak from my experience - I graduated from two vastly different separate fundamentalist schools. So, my perspective is pretty good when being able to identify what is going on - on that side. I’ve also spoken with Dan Kimball and been to the church he works with. I’ve been to Grandville several times to participate in and with the church Rob Bell works with.
What always alarmed me is the categories. In fact, admittedly it made me mad and angry. I’m not proud of the fact that during those moments I fell short of finding my Joy in Christ Jesus - and if I had it to do over again I would try hard not to get worked up.
Does it make you feel good to have categories?
Does it make you feel powerful to say I’m this, but I am in no way “that”?
Does it make you feel good inside to hear someone align themselves with your assessments?
I can’t find one redeeming reason to put that chart up.
When I see your chart, my mind sees the chart enveloped in blood. Because I am confident Jesus’ blood, his mercy, can forgive us all of our hearts that pour out sins.
Rowan Williams made a speech the other day. It caused a huge stir in discussion. I don’t necessarily agree with Rowan’s conclusions - but I know that he got many people to talk about and think about a cliff they were headed straight for. He drew up a flag - and got people talking.
I rather enjoyed Mike Higton’s take on Rowan. I also rather enjoyed Bruce Bawer’s comments. They raise good points on both sides. I learned a lot that I did not know about rape of European non-Muslim women and mistreatment of homosexuals in Islamic European communities. I did not know that. I learned about German 17 year olds and their take on things like Bush, Auschwitz, etc.
One thing I know, I would not know what I know today if Rowan had not started the conversation.
D.A. Carson and a long list of other evangelicals (McArthur included) have had the ability to publish several books framing up their beliefs and talking about Emerging beliefs. In other words, their voice was heard on such topics as fellowship, atonement, worship, etc. Things that really would not have been heard or published had McLaren and others started a conversation.
I’m not here to defend Brian - he’s a big boy. I’m not here to discuss whether Brian has returned the favor to the likes of Carson and McArthur.
I’m here to say that in any way shape or form that we insist on categories as a means to derive worth and value from - we’ve devoided ourselves of the whole point of participating in the life of God!
You see categories and I see God’s Grace. You make judgments and I see ONE judge.
I don’t agree with any of you, and I agree with all of you. If you know what I mean. We’re all learning and we all have a passion for knowing our Savior - not just about him. We all have the goal of being transformed from one degree of glory to the next - into the reflection of Jesus.
But, I’ll be the first one to admit - I don’t have Him framed up just yet. I’m lacking in all categories. But I’m plodding along with my hand on the plow - trying - and I think that’s where we all are. McArthur and McLaren included.
Jugulum on 15 Feb 2008 at 5:24 pm #
Pete,
I’ll be interested to see how Michael will answer your questions. For the moment, I want to ask you something:
Do you believe it is wrong to seek to understand where various people are coming from? To understand what they are teaching? To avoid broadbrushing people, but rather to distinguish between them when they teach different things? To exercise discernment in evaluating what they teach? To seek to teach truth, and avoid error that seems to deny or distort what God has told us? To seek to identify false teaching? To examine everything, cling to what is good, and avoid what is evil?
Kevin DeYoung on 15 Feb 2008 at 5:26 pm #
CMP, this is the first time I’ve been on your blog, but I think you’re Venn diagram is very helpful. I don’t want to be the guy who says “You’re so right because you think what I already thought,” but I guess I’m that guy. In working on a book about the emergent church I found that trying to be fair to the different voices was the hardest part. I came out about where you did. For those critical of the emerging/emergent church, we must try our best (imperfect though it will be) not to play guilt by association. On the other hand, we must also be able to critique people not just by whatever label they prefer (evangelical, emergent, or whatever) but by what they actually say and teach.
Grace,
Kevin
Truth Unites... and Divides on 15 Feb 2008 at 5:46 pm #
“I can’t find one redeeming reason to put that chart up.” (Pete Heiniger)
Not one?
P.S. What if a non-Christian were to say to God and to disciples of Jesus the following:
“I can’t find one redeeming reason why God put that Bible of His up.”
The non-Christian goes on to say (similar to what you do):
“What always alarmed me is the categories in the Bible. Does it make you feel good to have categories?
Does it make you feel powerful to say I’m this, but I am in no way “that�
Do you feel a criticism or critique based on biblical teaching is a way to bring an erring brother or sister back to where they “need†to be?
So I, a non-Christian following in Pete Heiniger’s rhetoric, will repeat this again for your benefit: “I can’t find one redeeming reason why God put that Bible of His up. All it does is create quarreling and divisiveness over categories.”"
Matt Svoboda on 15 Feb 2008 at 5:55 pm #
I love the post and the graphs… But I disagree with McManus. I think he is Evangelical/Emergent. He should not be in the same boat as McLaren. He disagrees with a lot of McLaren, for example: ‘Humble Hermeneutic approach’, what it means to be saved, and how is one saved. I think it really does an injustice to McManus to put him in the same category of McLaren. I have read every McManus book and listened to a lot of his sermons. I am Reformed so I have some obvious disagreements, but he is a lot more solid/evangelical than McLaren.
ElizabethB on 15 Feb 2008 at 9:28 pm #
I’m curious about the white space on the left…do you have in mind any fundamentalists outside of orthodoxy?
JoanieD on 15 Feb 2008 at 9:43 pm #
Ruben said in #21, “I could be right in the middle of classical evangelicalism but have no connection to Jesus at all - only right theology. And I would be worse off for it.”
I like that, Ruben, and I agree. I also like your #27 post.
I understand Michael’s point in that he wants to understand this stuff about emerging and emergent and he wants to understand why some folks would think he is an “emerger.” But I do think we risk losing our sight of the love of Jesus when we focus on categories a lot. I have been spending a lot of time on this blog trying to figure out what I am, in case someone wants to know. I don’t have it all figured out. I just hope I will continue to spend time in prayer and study to learn what Jesus thinks I am. I think he thinks I am a citizen of the Kingdom of God. I hope that I will not be a poor example of what a citizen of the Kingdom of God is like.
I pray for all of us to be smack dab in the middle of God’s love and grace.
Joanie D.
JoanieD on 15 Feb 2008 at 10:26 pm #
From a VERY quick look around the internet, I THINK I would align most with Dan Kimball out of the four men that Michael mentions in his post above. You can see Dan’s blog at http://www.dankimball.com/
I see Dan Kimball is discussing the same things the Michael brings up: What does evangelical mean? What does emergent mean? What do people mean when they say they believe what they believe?
About halfway down his blog page, he has an interesting post about hell. One thing he says is “I specifically stated that only God knows people’s eternal destinies and that we cannot say who is or isn’t going to hell.” But he does not deny hell. You cannot read and believe in the Bible and not believe there is a hell. I think he had a very balanced approach to how he considers hell.
http://www.dankimball.com/vintage_faith/2006/12/saddened_by_joh.html
Oh, I see he has a very long post there about how he was saddened by a radio guy’s portrayal of emergers and how he painted them all with the same brush. Dan ends his post with: “Oh Lord Jesus. Come quickly. What a mess we sin-tainted human beings create. Please forgive us all.”
Joanie D.
Erik Q on 15 Feb 2008 at 10:33 pm #
I wonder where Jesus would fit in the above chart?
Reclaiming the Mind Ministries » What is Orthodoxy? on 16 Feb 2008 at 12:01 am #
[...] argument in the last post on the emerging church is that the emerging ethos does not necessarily give way to heterodoxy as [...]
tc on 16 Feb 2008 at 12:21 am #
Great info, btw.
Thanks for putting the Emergent and Emerging categories into proper perspective.
I too read MacArthur’s Truth War and really thought that he went after guys without making the distinction that you outlined above.
I too find Emergent/Emerging difficult to define. For that reason, I’m looking forward to your next post.
Weekly Roundup « Blog of Dan on 16 Feb 2008 at 1:35 am #
[...] Michael Patton attempts to map the ‘emergers’ HERE. [...]
Scott S. on 16 Feb 2008 at 2:21 am #
Regarding Rob Bell,
He writes in his book, Velvet Elvis, on page 21, “Jesus at one point claimed to be ‘the way, the truth, and the life’. Jesus was not making claims about one religion being better than all other religions. That completely misses the point . . .â€
In context, Bell goes on to make a point that I wouldn’t disagree with. But why deny a plain important meaning of John 14:6? That leads to other questions.
If one obfuscates a foundational part of the “Good Newsâ€, how can one be Evangelical?
Since when isn’t obfuscation a form of denial?
If Christianity isn’t better than other religions, how can that be an Orthodox position?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 16 Feb 2008 at 6:43 am #
Since when isn’t obfuscation a form of denial?
Since when isn’t obfuscation a form of denial?
Indeed. And who among the Emergers does not obfuscate the historic evangelical doctrines?
And isn’t John MacArthur’s book “The Truth War” simply a general polemic against assertions that seek to obfuscate the Truth of and in God’s Word?
And if you enable and tacitly support someone who obfuscates the Truth of and in God’s Word, by doing all that you can to provide safe conduct and passage for their obfuscatory teachings to spread, then will you still claim that you are innocent?
What’s the first obfuscation that we read of in the Bible? It’s Satan asking the question: “Did God really say…?”
Since when isn’t obfuscation a form of denial?
The Truth War. Good book.
Since when isn’t obfuscation a form of denial?
James Diggs on 16 Feb 2008 at 7:20 am #
“who among the Emergers does not obfuscate the historic evangelical doctrines?”
Thus back to the problem of this chart; “historical EVANGELICAL doctrines?†The problem here is that some evangelicals think that the relatively new movement of evangelisms (historically speaking) is at the center of Christian orthodoxy.
As far as emergers obfuscating anything, I think this word villainizes legitimate questions the emergent conversation is asking which are not meant to confuses or deceive (as the word obfuscate implies) but actually meant to further explore what is true.
As long as an evangelical sees evangelicalism, or even the reformation, as the lone center of Christian orthodoxy than in their mind their positions can not be questioned. If a question being asked is seen as a threat, and might reveal that they do not have truth sewn up in their “evangelical orthodoxyâ€, than that question is compared to the devil trying to confuse eve in the garden.
The whole thing is sad and it is even worse that it is done in the name of Christ and truth.
Jesus Creed » Weekly Meanderings on 16 Feb 2008 at 7:46 am #
[...] guessing many will like the mapping of emerging done by Michael [...]
JoanieD on 16 Feb 2008 at 7:48 am #
James, good point, and I agree. I know that some people feel a great need to “defend” the purity of what they see as the orthodox Christian beliefs, but the church has grown in truth as believers come to understand more and more of what God would have us understand. And our faith can surely stand having people question some aspects of it and we can grow from that give and take.
The “joke” about one guy questioning another guy about his Christian beliefs and being impressed by how much they agree and then on one little aspect he finds they disagree so he says “Die, heretic!” and pushes him off the bridge sometimes seems a little too close to the truth of how people feel about disagreements in doctrine or dogma.
Joanie D.
darrin patrick on 16 Feb 2008 at 9:10 am #
Michael,
I found your thoughts and especially the chart very helpful. We need more thoughtful reflection like yours and less broad-brushing on this subject.
darrin patrick
charlie reich on 16 Feb 2008 at 9:58 am #
i just dicovered the hc movement on the internet a week ago, so i’m new to a lot of this. although i am familiar with the term “emerging church” i don’t understand the difference between emerging and emergent is. can anyone help me out?
Jamie Arpin-Ricci on 16 Feb 2008 at 9:59 am #
Great post and helpful launching point for a discussion on understanding the “amorphous” phenomenon that is the emerging church. It is impossible in include every nuance into such a graphing system, but you have done a fairly good job considering that challenge. Far better than most could have accomplished, so hats off!
While don’t necessarily disagree with you in you #3 comment, is it possible that your criteria about taking a public stand on an issue is as much a reflection of where you stand in the spectrum as it does about those you referenced? Just a thought.
The whole emerging/emergent differentiation always frustrates me. For example, I would have called the third arch “emerging” with Emergent (meaning Emergent Village) as a movement/group along side the list of individuals. I am not saying anything in respect to EV’s quality, simply that it is an expression, not a category.
Just my two cents!
Peace,
Jamie
Tim on 16 Feb 2008 at 11:12 am #
In his book “Faith Undone” Roger Oakland nails it all down, ties it up with a bow, and with a sincere heart for the truth delivers a powerful work on the dangers of the whole Emerging/emergent issue. This is a must read if you really care about the church of Christ. Mcmanus and Kimball among others are exposed as the mystics they are.
James Diggs on 16 Feb 2008 at 11:30 am #
I suppose a mystic then is anyone who doesn’t think that divine truth can be “nailed down†and “tied up with a bowâ€; if this is the case then count me in as one who has embraced the mystery of such things as truth personified in the person of Christ (who as truth personified that died on the cross is the only way I am confident truth can be definitively “nailed down”).
Roger Oakland’s book is catholicphobic and denies historical orthodox Christianity existed at all before the reformation. Robert Webber scares the pants off of him for gleaning from the works of the early church fathers long before the reformation. Again this shows another evangelical who has a very poor concept of historical Christian orthodoxy.
Dean on 16 Feb 2008 at 12:38 pm #
For Comment #51, Eric…
Why, Jesus would be right by where my name was positioned, of course.
JoanieD on 16 Feb 2008 at 1:41 pm #
Gee, Tim, I didn’t think that we now needed to watch out for mystics! Mysticism should be something valued and appreciated. I love reading about the great mystics in church history and in current times too. And as I practice centering prayer as taught by Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington, I think I am well within the Christian tradition.
Joanie D.
lee barnes on 16 Feb 2008 at 7:12 pm #
I understand what you are saying but i feel the ‘umbrella’ term of emerging provides the very broadness to which you are seperating. There is no doubt that such current thinking and movements are linked to a post-modern culture and consciousness that is prevalent at the moment. I question whether the task is to di-sect and categorize. Is not the question what is being said here - what may be behind the voices - is God at work. I imagine that within the initial followrs of Jesus, that eccletic subversive community, was many varied view-points which came under the umbrella term later coined ‘Christians’.
BLM on 17 Feb 2008 at 12:39 am #
It’s interesting to think about what the graphs would look like from the perspective that questions the fundamentalist- to-emergent spectrum as one ranging from conservative to liberal.
There are probably many emergers who would say that their views and/or practices are a return to pre-modern ways of being Christian. On this view, fundamentalists are certainly theologically conservative within the context of 19th/20th century mainstream Christianity, but some of the fundamentalist hallmarks, say the literal irrenancy of Scripture, aren’t in and of themselves conservative viewpoints. Indeed, literal inerrancy (just as one example) is a relatively new concept in the greater scope of Christian/Jewish history.
Scott S. on 17 Feb 2008 at 1:29 am #
James Diggs, in comment #57 you wrote: “As far as emergers obfuscating anything, I think this word villainizes legitimate questions the emergent conversation is askingâ€
If you read the example of Bell’s writing I cited (Comment#55), you would see why obfuscation is an accurate description. Bell denies the plain meaning of John 14:6, then finishes his paragraph by hinting partial agreement with vague wording that Jesus is “the way to a depth of realityâ€.
Bell does not explain a hermeneutical basis for handling John 14:6 and others verses in this manner. The reader can only infer that it appears he is using a symbolic approach to the text and doesn’t seem to be bothered whether or not the context supports his interpretation.
I am not confusing Bell’s obfuscation with questions he asks. For the most part his questions are clearly stated and some are constructive. For example: “Perhaps a better question than who’s right, is who’s living rightly?†(page 21)
James Diggs on 17 Feb 2008 at 6:25 am #
Scott,
I am sorry I just don’t see how Bell “denies the plain meaning of John 14:6.” I also don’t see how he was using a “symbolic approach” to this text.
Bell never denies that Jesus himself is the way, the truth and the life; in fact he embraces it. His point was that Jesus came to make himself the way not to just create a new religion.
I also don’t think that saying “the way to a depth of reality†is all that vague. I don’t have the book in front of me at the moment because I have lent it out, but if I recall correctly I think Bell’s point is that Jesus connects us to the reality of God. I don’t see this as inconsistent with John 14 in which Jesus tells his disciples if they have seen him, who is with them in flesh in blood, then they have seen the father. Jesus himself is the reality of God made flesh and he is the only way that we as flesh and blood people can connect with God.
I am sorry Scott, my understanding of the word “obfuscation” is using language that is intended to confuses the point. While Bell uses some language that has the flavor of “mystery” to it (which in itself is consistent with the great mystery being spoken of in the text) I don’t see how he misses or confuses the point of the text. Jesus himself is the way, truth, and life and their is no other way to connect to the deep reality of God than through Jesus.
Tim on 17 Feb 2008 at 5:12 pm #
Actually JoanieD mystics are folks we need to flee from as they are bringing the whole eastern religions as well as the catholic view point into the church. These forms of religion are anti-Biblical in their practices. Whereas the eastern religions try to point to the divine in all of us, and the catholics have a form of religion based upon a works salvation these are foreign to the gospel of the Scriptures. And the ECM is a way of bringing these viewpoints together under the guise of Christianity.
Shane Vander Hart on 17 Feb 2008 at 5:33 pm #
The chart was very helpful. I’m looking forward to the future posts.
JoanieD on 17 Feb 2008 at 5:59 pm #
Thanks for your time in replying, TIm, in #71. I think we will just have to disagree though. I am not going to be fleeing the Christian mystics. And I was brought up as a Catholic and I was never taught that I “earned” my way to heaven through my works. I was taught as I think you were that Jesus is the reason we are “saved.” Good works would naturally follow and if they didn’t, we would have to take a good look at whether we were really following Jesus. Jesus said that we would know his followers by their deeds, by their love. He said that he would say he never knew us if we didn’t follow his commandment to love one another even if we had claimed we were followers.
Joanie D.
Greg Long on 17 Feb 2008 at 8:59 pm #
Michael,
Enjoyed your podcasts on the emerging church as well as these helpful charts.
Although I would definitely place Brian McClaren outside the bounds of historic orthodox Christianity.
C Michael Patton on 17 Feb 2008 at 11:09 pm #
Greg, that is what most people are saying. Maybe you all are right. I think that McLaren might even place himself outside these days. One of the emerging characteristics of many emergers is that they don’t really care if people label them as outside the bounds of orthodoxy—at least in the traditional sense.
James Diggs on 17 Feb 2008 at 11:17 pm #
Tim, your comments in #71 are hilarious! You said, “They are bringing the whole eastern religions as well as the catholic view point into the church.” Very funny indeed; especially when you recognize the fact that the the oldest Christian traditions from which all other traditions emerged from are either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Also, keep in mind that the Christian faith, and Judaism before it , did not originate in the west.
What are we supposed to do with comments that fear influences from the oldest Christian traditions in the world will somehow pollute historical Christian orthodoxy? I am sorry Tim, this just seems incredibly ignorant to me.
James Diggs on 17 Feb 2008 at 11:20 pm #
Wow, I never noticed that comments were being monitored for approval before they were posted on this blog before. What’s the reason for tightening up the control?
Reclaiming the Mind Ministries » An Emerging Definition of “Emerging” on 18 Feb 2008 at 1:33 am #
[...] the last post (”Will the Real Emerger Please Stand Up?“), I discussed the difficulty in finding a one-size-fits-all category for emergers as [...]
Tim on 18 Feb 2008 at 6:30 am #
Allow me to clarify the “eastern religions” I was speaking of. Islam, Buddhism,Hinduism these religions along with their practices of meditation and looking inward are contrary to Scripture.
JoanieD on 18 Feb 2008 at 8:13 am #
Tim, would you negate the teachings of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila?
Also, we read at
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10663b.htm that,
“St. Augustine teaches indeed that we know the essences of things in rationibus aeternis, but this knowledge has its starting point in the data of sense (cf. Quæstiones, LXXXIII, c. xlvi). ”
We also read there, “To some souls, however, even in the present life, God gives a very special grace by which they are enabled to feel His sensible presence; this is true mystical contemplation. In this act, there is no annihilation or absorption of the creature into God, but God becomes intimately present to the created mind and this, enlightened by special illuminations, contemplates with ineffable joy the Divine essence.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers
“Many individuals who spent part of their lives in the Egyptian desert went on to become important figures in the Church and society of the fourth and fifth century, among them Athanasius of Alexandria, John Chrysostom, John Cassian, and Augustine of Hippo. Through the work of these last two, the spirituality of the desert fathers, emphasizing an ascent to God through periods of purgation and illumination that led to unity with the Divine, deeply affected the spirituality of the Western Church. For this reason, the writings and spirituality of the desert fathers are still of interest to many people today.”
In more recent times….Do you know the writings of Henri Norwen, Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating? I recommend them all.
Even J. P. Moreland in _Kingdom Triangle:Recover the Christian Mind, Renovate the Soul, Restore the Spirit’s Power _
http://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Triangle-Recover-Christian-Renovate/dp/031027432X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203338938&sr=1-1
/ recommends a “practice” to help us to connect to God in a “feeling” way, an “experienced” way. On page 155 of his book, he writes, “Grounded in Scripture, from the Desert Fathers to Henri Nouwen and Richard Foster, we have available to us a treasure of deep, rich knowledge of the soul and its proper functioning before God.”
He says the current evangelical community is one in which the visible leaders are white males with Type A personalities who struggle with being cut off from their emotions. He says on page 156 that it is “imperative” that we “develop an inner life with a flourishing emotionality” if we are to live for Jesus. On page 160-161 he gives actual steps for you to practice so that you are “not leaning on your own understanding.”
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/mystic.htm
Near the bottom of that page, check out a huge list of “Famous Mystics Prior to the Nineteenth Century.”
Also, I actually think some of the Eastern religions like Buddhism can indirectly lead a person to Jesus. I know I practiced some forms of Eastern religion for a while and it lead me right back to Jesus. I looked inside myself as you spoke about and saw there that I needed to make a leap of faith and ask Jesus to help me. That’s the best prayer I know of, “Jesus, help me.” I am not advocating that people be Buddhists. I am advocating that people rest in Jesus, learn from Jesus, love Jesus.
Joanie D.
James Diggs on 18 Feb 2008 at 8:36 am #
Tim, “looking inward” is not contrary to scripture. Also, though Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism are distinctly different religions that is not to say that every eastern mindset is anti Christian; especially because Christianity emerged from some of the same overlapping part of the world. There is far more eastern influence in our scripture than you realize; it is just that your western lens tends to filter it out.
James
Scott S. on 18 Feb 2008 at 11:25 am #
James Diggs
Thanks for your replies. I’m new to this blog and having just read the blog rules, I realize that I’m not following them by debating Bell with you. Sorry.
Since you are familiar with Bell’s writings, I would appreciate your feedback on an additonal question or two. I will direct those question via the link you provided.
Scott
Tim on 18 Feb 2008 at 11:32 am #
A Few Quotes:
“Thomas Merton was perhaps the greatest poularizer of interspirituality. He opened the door for Christians to explore other traditions, notably Taoism (Chines witchcraft), Hinduism and Buddhism.â€â€ According to Wayne Teasdale, Catholic Lay Monk.
” I think Christianity is the same as Buddhism and Hinduism.†Erwin McManus in a Relevant Mag. Interview with Al Sergel
Today I personally believe that while Jesus came to open the door to God’s house, all human beings can walk through that door, whether they know about Jesus or not. Today I see it as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God â€From Sabbatical Journey, Henri Nouwen’s last book, page 51, 1998
I see no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity…. I intend to become as good a Buddhist as I can.-Thomas Merton
New Light embodiment means to be “in connection” and “information” with other faiths…. One can be a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ without denying the flickers of the sacred in followers of Yahweh, or Kali, or Krishna.”-Leonard Sweet
You cannot have a personal relationship with Jesus within the confines of a false religion. A person has to leave their religion to follow Jesus, we cannot just add him on. This would contradict Jesus’ own remarks that the road is narrow. This would widen it as an all inclusive concept.
James Diggs on 18 Feb 2008 at 11:40 am #
Thanks Scott, I was not aware that our conversation about that matter was “out of bounds” in anyway on this blog, but you are more than welcome to contact me another way if you like.
Peace,
James
Truth Unites... and Divides on 18 Feb 2008 at 12:41 pm #
Tim, Scott. S.,
Much thanks for your excellent contributions.
JoanieD on 18 Feb 2008 at 5:04 pm #
To Tim on your #83 post. You quoted McManus from one of his interviews, but you only put half of his sentence. The fuller conversation seen at http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god_article.php?id=7241&print=true said, “I think Christianity is the same as Buddhism and Hinduism—whenever a religion begins to say that these are the things you have to do to be loved by God, you have a religion. The defining difference is not that you have to do these things to be loved by God, it’s that God loves you, and if you would just turn around, you’d run right into His love.”
It’s always interesting to find that he is saying he doesn’t consider himself “emergent.” He says, “Just one more thought. Because people don’t know where to put our community they put us in the “emergent†category, and we really are a different animal than emergent. We’re not against emergent, but we are not like them. I’m just saying that it’s just not Mosaic. Our dilemma is that we are trying to create an entire new category and people keep trying to put us in different ones.”
So that we do not “debate” I will now leave this particular line of conversation. Take care!
Joanie D.
Martin Scott’s Blog » Blog Archive » Emerging: definitions and a crisis on 19 Feb 2008 at 1:44 am #
[...] also has put together a diagram in the form of a map and you can see where he places those who have been given the label [...]
Back to the round up | Byrnesys Blabberings on 19 Feb 2008 at 9:36 am #
[...] and orthodoxy, meanwhile parchment and pen have started a series which is attempting to work out who the real emergers are!well…above is all the reading I caught up with from the last week, Im sure its enough to keep [...]
Loose Ends at Phoenix Preacher on 19 Feb 2008 at 12:33 pm #
[...] the emerging church front, Michael Patton over at "Parchment and Pen" has some very interesting observations about where some of the leaders of the movement stand [...]
Loose Ends II at Phoenix Preacher on 19 Feb 2008 at 12:51 pm #
[...] Michael Patton over at Parchment and Pen created these charts on emergent theology and leaders that … [...]
P3T3RK3Y5 on 19 Feb 2008 at 1:23 pm #
looks like someone took a complex multi-dimensional relationship and reduced it to a single dimension. when you do so - you can make any thing fit between any other thing - provided you look from the right perspective.
while the dimension of choice is labeled ( liberal conservative ) I’m not sure this reduction is particularly helpful or accurate as a generalization… primarily because I think this line would actually be a curve through the n-space of useful dialogue.
an equivalent linear reduction of the gospel, the kingdom, orthodoxy, redemption, or theology in general would demonstrate either a overwhelming lack of appreciation for the number of factors (dimensionality) involved… or a false statement. e.g. where does the Bible fit on this chart?
Emergence is rich, complex, phenomena that is bottom up. once this idea is appreciate, it will become clear why graphing our “leaders†is pointless: we don’t follow them anyway. you may as well graph P3T3RK3Y5 on your next go around. and emergent is just a brand name.
Mapping Emerging?!?! | EarlBarnett.com on 19 Feb 2008 at 1:25 pm #
[...] is a chart I that Scott McKnight posted, via Michael Patton for [...]
Emerging defined? | Micah Fries :: Husband Daddy Pastor Learner on 19 Feb 2008 at 6:52 pm #
[...] Well, not exactly, but this is a very good attempt at wading through the various streams of Christian thought from Fundamentalism all the way to beyond Emerging to full blown liberalism. I’d recommend that you take a look at it if you have studied the Emerging church at all. You can read it here. [...]
Learning on 19 Feb 2008 at 11:41 pm #
Michael, I like the chart. This is an interesting post. I have been to Erwin’s church Mosaic. I actually went last Sunday and he spoke on Jesus being the only way, that Jesus is the judge and will eventually judge the world, that Jesus is coming back, that there is a hell, and repentance. And Erwin also mentioned that he held to these beliefs. I find that Erwin’s way of talking about these subjects are different than maybe MacArthur’s way of talking about them. I find Erwin’s way more refreshing and just different.
MacArthur has a dogmatism about himself. And I too have found that in his books he is often times guilty of going on tangents and blasting away at folks while setting up straw man arguments with exagerations. (Charismatic Chaos is a good example).
Oh yeah, J.P. Moreland is the man.
the differing flavors of emerging « faithmaps blog on 20 Feb 2008 at 2:42 am #
[...] discussion is going on around this Michael Patton chart over at Scot McKnight’s Jesus Creed [...]
Que Se Pongan de Pie los Emergentes… « sujetosalaRoca on 20 Feb 2008 at 3:24 am #
[...] Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? Part 1 [...]
Emergent Mapping « my four walls on 21 Feb 2008 at 2:58 pm #
[...] 21, 2008 by lucas Some crazy guy out there has been at it again trying to draw nice diagrams with things like boundaries and solid lines to describe the emerging [...]
TheoBlog » Emerging Church – eine Kartografie on 21 Feb 2008 at 3:41 pm #
[...] Tagen zwei ›Landkarten‹ publiziert, die ein sehr geteiltes Echo finden (vgl. die Diskussion bei Michael Patton, Scot McKnight und dem Emergent [...]
the seperation | themattscott on 21 Feb 2008 at 7:23 pm #
[...] are outside of orthodoxy. The chart was created by C Michael Patton for his series “Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up.” One caveat… I’ve never heard the term Emerger thrown around, emergent/emerging [...]
Orthodoxy…in or out? « Blue like Elvis on 22 Feb 2008 at 2:19 pm #
[...] following is a chart by Michael Patton which attempts to define the emerging church. He goes as far as to place certain names in or [...]
Quick Hits 2/22/08 « My Two Cents on 22 Feb 2008 at 5:40 pm #
[...] this post, C. Michael Patton presents a graph of modern Protestant currents, including fundamentalism, [...]
JoanieD on 23 Feb 2008 at 7:24 am #
This may not even get seen since I am posting it way back on Michael’s part 1 of his emerging series of posts, but Tim, I wanted to point out that the Reclaiming the Mind Ministries bookstore has these books listed as part of their recommended reading:
http://astore.amazon.com/reclaimingthe-20/detail/0486426939/103-6393694-9032657
Dark Night of the Soul
The Life of Saint Teresa of Avila by Herself
The Way of Perfection
By Teresa Of Avila
The Imitation of Christ
By Thomas a Kempis
and more books that would also have a contemplative dimension to them.
Maybe, now that Michael has finished with the “emerging” series, he would consider something on the “contemplative” practices of the church, both in the past and current. Remember, J.P. Moreland, who I THINK is well respected among many in the evangelical world, is proposing practices that may help get us in touch with God in a “feeling” way.
Take care,
Joanie D.
JoanieD on 23 Feb 2008 at 8:09 am #
Oh boy, after reading some more on Moreland’s webpage, I got directed to:
http://www.denverpost.com/lifestyles/ci_7851561
which is an article about Richard Foster’s 30 years old book called “Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth,” which Moreland supports. Richard Foster is a Protestant so I thought I would bring this up since so many of the folks I mention writing about the contemplative dimension of the Gospel are Catholics which I know would turn some of you off. Some of the things in that article say:
“Superficiality is the curse of our age,” he wrote in “Celebration of Discipline,” tapping into the cultural hunger for meaning.
“The desperate need today is not for a greater number of intelligent people or gifted people but for deep people.”
Spiritual disciplines are not just for monks and ascetics, he says, but for real people: husbands and wives, dishwashers and CEOs, mechanics and lawyers.
“He’s definitely the pioneer among Protestants,” says Howard Baker, who teaches spiritual formation at the Denver Seminary, an evangelical institution.
This trend, particularly popular with evangelicals, received a boost earlier this year when a scientific study validated what Foster has said for decades: Being active in church doesn’t necessarily result in spiritual growth.
“There is a lot of agreement (about) a belief system and a good amount of activism,” says Baker, “but in terms of personal transformation in character and in being Christ-like, particularly among evangelicals, we are just sorely lacking in that count.”
“People around my age in the Protestant evangelical movement have done the doctrine thing, the theology thing and the hyperactive ministry thing,” says Baker, 56. “At the end of those journeys, we found, ‘Is this all there is?’
“That ushered me into this inner spiritual journey that’s more contemplative and that draws on a rich heritage.”
Solitude, he believes, is the most needed spiritual discipline in this era of noise, hurry and stress.
But so is community. He and his wife meet regularly with two other couples in a spiritual-formation group.
“The ancient question,” he says, “is, ‘How is it with your soul? How are you doing with this life?’ ”
Joanie D.
Navigating the Emerging/ Emergent Landscape « SoCal Theologica: Theological Musings from the West Coast on 24 Feb 2008 at 1:58 am #
[...] Would The Real Emerger Please Stand Up Part 1 [...]
The Weekend Update « In Proximity on 25 Feb 2008 at 11:17 am #
[...] and cons, which you can find here. If you are more of the visual type, you can find another article here, even with [...]
mapping emergent « finitum non capax infiniti on 25 Feb 2008 at 4:22 pm #
[...] you haven’t seen this graphic yet, it was done by Michael Patton and much discussed on Jesus Creed. It was Patton’s attempt to visually represent where people [...]
Darryl on 25 Feb 2008 at 7:16 pm #
I haven’t read the comments–so if I repeat anything, please overlook!
We so desperately want to label, don’t we? It gives us a feelign of control! I’m a 50 something minister who would probably be labeled emergent in my world view. Yet, what am I?
My tradition is Church of Christ. If you examine our early leaders–especially men like Barton W. Stone, David Lipscomb and James Harding you would discover people who (although influenced by rationalism–hey they lived in the 1800s!) hold very similar views to many emergent folks–(well, they might have some problems with McLaren). But they certainly had a big problem with buying into the culture, especially Americanism.
Check out Kingdom Come by Dr. John Mark Hicks if you have any interest in the Church of Christ experience and the similarities it had with what is now called emergent.
Darryl on 25 Feb 2008 at 7:18 pm #
btw, it was an excellent blog and I enjoyed your perspective. You are so right–emergent is not a unified movement.
Reclaiming the Mind Ministries » Would the Real Emerger Please Stand Up? (Complete) on 25 Feb 2008 at 7:24 pm #
[...] argument in the last post on the emerging church is that the emerging ethos does not necessarily give way to heterodoxy as [...]
Frank Schutzwohl on 26 Feb 2008 at 12:09 am #
As a part of Solomons Porch in Minneapolis and a personal friend of Doug Pagitt and Tony Jones I would highly recommend that anyone interested in the subject of the Emergent movement check out a new book by Tony called” The New Christians:Dispatches From the Emergent Frontier”. It answers a lot of questions regarding history and relationships of the various individuals being being discussed in this blog. It is much more helpful than the chart which is beginning to look like an end-times prophecy chart. Also it might be helpful to actually visit with some of the people being verbally tossed about,and perhaps discover that the labels we try to put on them may not stick. Visiting the groups being discussed may also prove to be enlightening. We really don’t have horns or consume the offspring of Fundamentalists
Frank
C Michael Patton on 26 Feb 2008 at 12:12 am #
Thanks Frank. Good advice. Not sure how accessible many of these personalities are, but it is always better to get straight answers from the horses mouth.
Did you read all the posts in this series?
Discussing Emerging Church Taxonomies « faithmaps blog on 26 Feb 2008 at 5:36 am #
[...] c michael patton has helpfully provided a metapost of blogosphere comment to his recent contribution to discerning the various flavors of emerging. [...]
Mapping the church « Chris Kidd - applied youth ministry on 26 Feb 2008 at 6:00 pm #
[...] Mapping the church Posted on February 26, 2008 by Chris Michael Patton has tried to map the church spectrum and the emergers. [...]
Where is the Emerging Church? Where are You? « Triangular Christianity on 27 Feb 2008 at 2:24 pm #
[...] Michael Patton has written a five-part series on the Emerging Church Movement (here is a link to part one, you can follow the following links from there. By the way, he wouldn’t approve of my use of [...]
Wes Ellis on 27 Feb 2008 at 4:36 pm #
You’ll have to excuse me if I’m repeating the comments of others- I didn’t read every one of the 114 comments up to this point.
I think these charts are helpful (if properly understood) as long as we think of them as training wheels. I always hesitate to chart or label people, especially when it comes to distinguishing orthodox from orthodox. It can make it much easier to write people off if we throw them in or out a particular theological box. We can’t broad-stroke someone’s ideas into one monolithic category. But with that said, it can’t be denied that some people are more of somethings than others are (i.e. “MacArthur is not as ‘emerging’ as McLaren” is an understatement and I think they both would agree). People should be honest about their presuppositions and this should be used to guide us in healthy dialog, not to empower us toward ignorance.
One question: Why no names in the Fundamentalism category outside of orthodoxy? Are there no fundamentalists who are too fundamentalist to fit into orthodoxy?
ThomasW on 28 Feb 2008 at 3:59 pm #
One person asked the question where Pentecostals fit into this and it was ignored.
This is one group that I’ve noticed in the whole Emergent/Emerging scene that either gets ignored or lumped together with Charismatics that that is Pentecostals.
I personally though I do not identify myself any longer as a Pentecostal find that disturbing as I have many dear brothers and systers that genenuinely love god and their neighbor in ways that Emerging say they value.
And I also though I do not agree with all the doctrines or praxis of Pentecostals in many ways I’m closer theologically to them theologically then I am to Driscal though I’m light years closer to Driscoll then Mclaren!
The Digital Sanctuary » Blog Archive » Digital Sanctuary Weekly Wrap Up on 29 Feb 2008 at 12:05 pm #
[...] of the week: Parchment and Pen [...]
Those Emergent Type… « gospel-centered church on 04 Mar 2008 at 6:21 am #
[...] and fundamentalism.  If you would like to read the post in it’s entirety it is here.     [...]
Frank Schutzwohl on 07 Mar 2008 at 12:04 am #
C Michael Patton
Yes I have read the other posts, and found them fascinating. The one that stuck out most was Erik Q’s #51. The best answer I believe comes from Christ’s own mouth. When He asked “who do men say that I am”, I’m sure the graphs were being filled out rapidly. His question to each of us remains “who do you say that I am”. Peter’s response is all the orthodoxy that I need. I have tried to fit myself into the graph based upon my beliefs and come away “unfittable?” I’m an emergent “Elmer Fudd” 4 point Calvinist (TU-IP) I really have trouble with the L. I’m a pacifist,somewhat premillenial,dont care when or if the rapture takes place type of person. I believe that all pastors and other so-called professional leaders would better serve the body of Christ by preparing the “laity”for the work of the ministry,retiring, and then writing books ala Eugene Peterson, or driving a semi ala myself. I like the 66 books we have as scripture but resent a council of agenda-minded “bishops” telling us what is and is not scripture. We have all been given the Holy Spirit of God and are capable of being led into Truth. Ive had 2 years of Greek, 1 year of Hebrew,and a library I’ll put up against John Mac’s. Ive pastored for 15 years and watched the church march backward into the same old Pharisaical attitudes that effectively killed the vibrant NT body. It all brought me to this one conclusion: None of the above mentioned matters if I have not love. So I guess it really doesn’t matter where I fit in the graph. Thanks for letting this emergent heretic rant. Frank. “Go sell everything,etc.”
Fundamental/Evangelical/Emerging/Emergent « My World on 07 Mar 2008 at 9:11 am #
[...] Fundamental/Evangelical/Emerging/Emergent The graphic below has been making its rounds through a few blogs. You can see what Dan Kimball and Scot McKnight had to say about it. It originated here. [...]
relevintage - a blog by brad andrews on 10 Mar 2008 at 10:38 am #
[...] out the series here: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, and Part [...]
FD Patterson on 11 Mar 2008 at 7:47 pm #
I thought we all lived in a big tent.
I suppose that where I get confused at is, I always thought that for one to be a Christian, or the acid test of what a Christian is, was a belief in the divinity of Jesus as the son of God. Profess a committed belief in that and your now part of the big tent, so to speak.
But then I travel down the way an talk with other Christians in the big tent and find that well, you also have to believe this and this and well, the tent gets a little smaller. So I go still a bit further down the road and the next Christians I talk to say, “Well, that’s all nice and good and everything but to be a real Christian, you also have to believe this and also this. So once again, the tent gets a little smaller.
So, I take all that into consideration and go still further down the road and the next Christians I talk to say, why on no! You can’t believe this and that, which the Christians up the road told me I had to have a belive in, but I have to now get rid of