The Significance of Scribal Corruptions to the New Testament

Ancient scribes who copied the handwritten texts of the New Testament frequently changed the text intentionally. Although unintentional changes account for the vast majority of textual corruption, intentional alterations also account for thousands of corruptions. In some cases, to be sure, it does seem that the scribes were being malicious. But these instances are few and far between. The majority of the intentional changes to the text were done by scribes who either thought that the text they were copying had errors in it or by scribes who were clarifying the meaning, especially for liturgical reasons.
Some of the commonest intentional changes involve parallel passages. This is where the passage that the scribe is copying out has a parallel to it of which the scribe is aware. For example, about 90% of the pericopes in Mark’s Gospel are found in Matthew. When a scribe was copying Mark, after he had just finished copying Matthew, he would frequently remember the parallel in Matthew and make adjustments to the wording of Mark so that it would conform to the wording of Matthew. This alteration is known as harmonization. Occasionally, the wording in Matthew would be conformed to that of Mark or Luke. Or when the New Testament quotes from the Old Testament, especially when the quotation is from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament abbreviated LXX), scribes tended to conform the wording in the NT to the LXX. Parallels between letters of Paul also suffer from this kind of alteration. But when certain manuscripts disagree with such parallels, they are usually considered to reflect the wording of the original text better. A part of the reason for this is that virtually all manuscripts harmonize passages. This shows that there was a concern for the wording of the text and the historical reliability of the text. Consequently, when a manuscript does not harmonize while most others do, it is usually considered to reflect the original wording.
Scribes also were prone to clarify passages, especially for liturgical reasons. As we mentioned earlier, 89 successive verses in Mark do not mention the name of Jesus once nor refer to him by any noun at all. But in the lectionary cycle, a portion of Mark’s Gospel would be read for the assigned day. It would be a bit confusing if the passage began with, “And he went out from Galilee.†Who is the ‘he’? The lectionaries would add the name of Jesus (and they did so in three well-placed locations in these 89 verses) to give a little context to the reader. The lectionaries exercised a great influence on the later manuscripts especially. What was part of the prescribed reading of scripture became so ingrained in the scribes’ minds that they naturally added the words that they knew from such recitations.
Scribes also were prone to clarify what they thought the text meant. Sometimes they were right, sometimes they were wrong. There could be theological issues involved, or issues of mere orthopraxy (proper conduct in the church). An understanding of early church history helps us to get a better grasp on which reading is most likely to be authentic and which is not. But we can’t always be sure, and one of the great problems with this kind of approach is pinpointing when a reading arose and matching it to a theological agenda. Some have attempted this as a primary explanation for the apparent theological changes in the NT, but what they haven’t done is sufficiently anchor a particular reading to a particular time and place in which such a reading would probably arise. Thus, the theological argument must give way to the textual evidence, since the textual variants are capable of being explained by several different factors.
Two or three examples are in order to illustrate the above points. In Mark 3.21 most manuscripts (including early and important ones) read, “When his family heard this they went out to restrain him, for they were saying, ‘he is out of his mind.’†The ‘they’ here is ambiguous: it might refer back to ‘his family,’ in which case Jesus’ family was calling him nuts; or it might refer to a general ‘they.’ Manuscripts of the Western text-type changed ‘his family’ to ‘the scribes and the rest’ to remove the potential embarrassment. Yet this is precisely why ‘his family’ is probably authentic: what scribe would change the text to make it more ambiguous, and capable of embarrassment?
In John 4.17, Jesus quotes the Samaritan woman’s words back to her: “Correctly you have said, ‘I don’t have a husband.’†However, in the Greek text, he didn’t quote her exactly. The word order is reversed: “A husband I don’t have.†The emphasis seems to be that she had someone at home but he was not her husband, a point Jesus will make explicit in the next verse. However, a few manuscripts change the word order to make both statements conform to each other—however, they don’t change Jesus’ word order but the woman’s! It’s as if the scribes were thinking, “He quoted her correctly; she just didn’t say it right in the first place so we need to adjust her wordsâ€! Other manuscripts both changed the word order of what the woman had to say and turned Jesus’ statement into an indirect statement (“Correctly you have said that you don’t have a husbandâ€), to safeguard the Lord’s speech. Here is an instance in which the parallel is in the same verse rather than between two Gospels.
In Mark 9.31 and 10.34, most manuscripts change the wording of Jesus’ prediction of his own death and resurrection to say that he would rise from the dead ‘on the third day’ instead of ‘after three days.’ However, several important and diverse witnesses read ‘after three days’ in these verses. Why the change? Because Matthew and Luke spoke of Jesus’ resurrection as occurring on the third day, not after three days. Mark consistently referred to Jesus’ resurrection as occurring after three days, while Matthew and Luke almost consistently speak of it as occurring on the third day. There is but one instance in Matthew in which ‘after three days’ is used, and that on the lips of would-be witnesses against Jesus (Matt 27.63). Without getting into the details of these parallels, suffice it to say that both Matthew and Luke seemed to want to clarify that ‘after three days’ meant ‘on the third day’; and most later scribes, not recognizing the Jewish idiom, also changed the wording in Mark to reflect the wording in Matthew and Luke.
It is remarkable, however, that the scribes seemed to be more concerned with harmonizations, both literary and historical, than in protecting Jesus’ divine status—even if they embraced his full deity. A classic example of this is the parallel between Matthew 19.17 and Mark 10.18. In Mark 10.17, the rich young ruler says to Jesus, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?†To this Jesus responds, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.†The answer must have startled the young man—and certainly would have startled the readers of this gospel! Was Jesus here declaring that he was not divine? That certainly seems to be the implication—at least on the surface. Most likely, however, Jesus was attempting to get the young man to recognize that by calling Jesus good he was saying something about him that was ontological, intrinsic to his nature. Was he really prepared to call Jesus divine? If so, then he should definitely do whatever the Lord told him because this man from Nazareth was God in the flesh.
In characteristic fashion, Matthew softens this line of thought because his goal is not so much to get his readers to wrestle with who Jesus is as it is to instruct them who he is. While Mark is attempting to get his readers to come to their own conclusions about Jesus, Matthew is attempting to get them to come to his conclusions. (This, by the way, explains why Mark ends his gospel at 16.8 rather than at 16.20: the reader is invited to think through the death and resurrection and consider whether he should embrace Jesus as both the suffering servant and the resurrected Lord. Mark, however, does not give him the option of just accepting Jesus in his glory. This is what Peter and the disciples originally wanted, and for this reason Mark leaves off any resurrection appearance to Peter and the disciples.) Hence, in Matt 19.16, the young man says, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to gain eternal life?†To this Jesus responds, Why do you ask me about the good? There is only one who is good.†The full response here is almost a non sequitur. The man, in Matthew, did not call Jesus good, so ‘there is only one who is good’ does not seem to directly answer his question. However, it does reveal a seam, a vestige of Mark’s wording that has carried over into Matthew’s gospel. What is most remarkable about this parallel, however, is this: Scribes changed the wording in Matthew rather than in Mark. In fact, the majority of scribes changed Matthew’s wording to conform to Mark. Well after orthodoxy was established, these scribes continued to fix the text of Matthew and leave Mark untouched. Now, to be sure, the wording in Mark is the same as the wording in Luke. But since Matthew was the most copied and read gospel in the ancient church, one would especially expect Mark’s gospel to be changed to conform to Matthew. Further, concerning Christology, where Mark asks a question, Matthew gives an answer. It may have been the near non sequitur in Matt 19.17 that tipped the scales, or the parallel in Luke, but regardless of the reason the fact that later scribes changed the text of Matthew to conform to Mark shows at least that they were more concerned about verbal harmonization than about any implications this might have for Christology. And this is something we see frequently in the synoptic gospels: harmonizations simply for the sake of smoothing out historical and literary parallels, regardless of the consequences for other theological issues.
Nevertheless, such harmonizations are easy to spot. And scribes were not entirely consistent. Thus, the ‘after three days’ in Mark 8.31 is virtually untouched. Even this strong motive to alter the text was never done systematically and was never done completely. For this reason, we can have a great deal of confidence that the essential message of the original text can be recovered, for there is always a witness to it.
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- The Significance of Scribal Corruptions to the New Testament
- Textual Variants: What Issues Are At Stake? Part 2
- Why Did Scribes Make Mistakes when Copying Scripture? Part 2
- New Testament Textual Criticism 101
- Why Did Scribes Make Mistakes when Copying Scripture? Part 1
C Michael Patton on 08 Jan 2008 at 11:56 am #
Dan, that was an awesome post. I loved the story of the woman at the well. Great illustration to help us understand the tendencies of the scribes. Very interesting indeed.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 08 Jan 2008 at 12:51 pm #
The Significance of Scribal Corruptions to the New Testament
I agree with CMP that this is a significant and interesting post. I recommend all to read it.
I should like to ask whether the chosen term “Corruptions” is the best word choice. In much the same manner as the ancient scribes made decisions about word selection, I should like to ask whether “corruptions” is the best word to use in the title of your blog post. I was wondering whether you had considered the word “Alterations” as another possible term so that the title would read: “The Significance of Scribal Alterations to the New Testament.”
Michael Reichwein on 08 Jan 2008 at 1:22 pm #
Ok! I give up! Is this article supposed to be fact? Where are the footnotes filled with historic documentation? “Some of the commonest intentional changes involve parallel passages.†Where are the side-by-side copies; you know the older version without the parallel section compared to the newer version with the inserted parallel. The inerrancy of scriptures is at stake! Are we to say that God can order the universe, yet He is unable to keep some scribes in line?
Imagine that you are the scribe. You have devoted your entire life and service to the Lord! You have been given the task of coping the Holy Scriptures; not a calling for just anyone! So you pray that the Lord will be with you in your endeavors; guiding your mind and hands as you work. Dan writes; “It is remarkable, however, that the scribes seemed to be more concerned with harmonization, both literary and historical, than in protecting Jesus’ divine status.†I can almost see scribe thinking to himself… “I can write it better that God can write it!â€
My personal opinion is that the scribe would rather die before intentionally altering the Holy Scriptures.
I purpose is not to bash Dan. I am sure that he is a cool person on fire for the Lord! Nevertheless, I was hopping that we could get past subjective fiction to reporting the historical facts.
C Michael Patton on 08 Jan 2008 at 3:04 pm #
Michael, that is exactly what Dan is attempting to do. This stuff is not imagined nor is it a subjective enterprise of attempting to discredit inerrancy, but an attempt to understand and deal with the evidence.
There are thousands of ancient New Testament manuscripts that are in play along with lectionaries, translations, and other mediums of transmitting the New Testament. When compared, side by side, there are over 300,000 differences (variants). We have to deal with these variants in an intellectually honest and viable way if we are going to honor the Lord. We cannot just take the one that we think is the best. That would be a subjective methodology that ignores the historical facts. It would amount to sticking our head in the sand. This is something that Christianity need not do.
I don’t think that this study needs to call into question inerrancy, but a belief in inerrancy makes such a study very important to our faith.
Jugulum on 08 Jan 2008 at 3:20 pm #
Michael R.,
Since we’re telling stories, here’s another:
“Cornelius the scribe sat down for his day’s work of copying the Gospel according to Mark. ‘What a great honor it is,’ he thought, ‘to take part in the preservation of God’s word by copying it for future generations and wider distribution.’
After copying a few paragraphs, Cornelius discovered a mistake in the manuscript! ‘Oh dear,’ he thought, ‘this copy is corrupted. It says ‘after three days’ instead of ‘on the third day’, which I know is correct from Matthew. Thanks to God that I was able to repair the corruption!’”
i.e. No element of “I can write it better that God can write it!” is being proposed.
Jugulum on 08 Jan 2008 at 3:36 pm #
P.S. Michael R. asked, “Is this article supposed to be fact? Where are the footnotes filled with historic documentation?”
Well…Yes, it’s supposed to be discussing things that are facts–or at least very confident conclusions. No, it’s not supposed to be a scholarly proof of those conclusions. It’s an introduction to some of the issues, for lay-people. That’s why it doesn’t have footnotes filled with historical documentation. If you read Dan Wallace’s published articles, you will find that sort of documentation.
I do agree that showing side-by-side copies of a couple manuscripts would be a neat illustration.
Also, if you’re interested in seeing exact variants, you could always pick up a critical edition of the Greek NT, like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Greek-New-Testament-Bonded-Leather/dp/1598561715/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199824500&sr=8-1
For each variant, it lists a lot of information about which manuscripts have which version of the wording.
Michael Reichwein on 08 Jan 2008 at 4:35 pm #
Cool………pen to death! hahahha! I think i need a healing!
Please, point by point! What about the scribes? Could use a reference that shows intent to change scripture. From an historic source.
thanks and again God Bless!
Michael Reichwein
Jugulum on 08 Jan 2008 at 5:09 pm #
Michael,
When two manuscripts are different, it was either intentional, or it was unintentional–accidental. When you see a difference, you can ask, “Is it possible that this was accidental?”
———-
Example:
Suppose one manuscript says “where” instead of “were”.
It’s probably a misspelling. It’s pretty easy to see how someone would have left off a letter. Slip of the pen.
———-
———-
Example:
Suppose most copies say “on the third day”, and one says “after three days”.
It’s a lot harder for it to be accidental. A slip of the pen won’t do it.
(1) One possibility: Intentional. The scribe maliciously changes the wording. (That doesn’t make any sense here–we can imagine a villainous scribe, but why would he make this change?)
(2) Another possibility: Intentional. The scribe changed the wording because he thought it was supposed to be “after three days”. (Maybe he’s copying from two manuscripts, and each says a different thing–so he has to pick one. Or maybe he looks at Matthew, and sees that it says “after three days”, so he thinks that Mark is supposed to say that, too. He thinks he’s restoring the original.)
(3) Another possibility: Accidental. He’s really used to reading Matthew–maybe he has some verses from Matthew memorized. When he copies out the sentence, he accidentally fills in “after three days” because that’s how he’s used to hearing it. (Comparison: Suppose you’re copying Luke, and you’re at the Lord’s prayer. You might accidentally add “but deliver us from evil”, because you have the longer version in Matthew memorized.)
Michael Reichwein on 08 Jan 2008 at 7:26 pm #
Nothing like dialog to workout the brain cells! Yet, this is not the point-by-point discussion I had intended. If I could persuade one the populace out there to provide an external link that would contain the following:
A list dealing with the many (claimed by Dan) scriptural errors contained in the N.T.:
1. The number pertaining to essential theology.
2. The number pertaining to typographical errors.
3. The number of proven outright lies.
4. The number of sections that were proven to be coped from one section to another section.
5. ETC…
Has the core of Christianity been tainted by injected humanistic theology?
Has there been an impact study? In addition, what were the findings of such a study?
Thanks
TAG-you’re it!
steve moore on 08 Jan 2008 at 7:38 pm #
Michael,
Actually most if not all of what you seek is already on this site in the other blog entries, mostly by Dr Wallace. We’re trying to teach you to fish, you know that old saying… we wouldn’t want you to go hungry after a day. ;^)
Ummm… tagsies, no tagbacks?
-steve
Dan Wallace on 08 Jan 2008 at 8:03 pm #
Dear Michael R.,
Thanks for your engagement in this issue. I hope you realize that what the scribes do when they alter the text has nothing to do with inerrancy, because inerrancy has to do with the original wording. The question we’re raising is to what extent the scribes actually changed the text intentionally. I gave some examples of that and discussed them. That is real, concrete evidence. I did not discuss the 300,000 to 400,000 textual variants because neither you nor I have the time to do so–especially for a blog. Not to mention that this is an estimate; no one has counted them all.
But if you want real evidence of what the scribes did, I would suggest two or three sources of information for you. First, the Nestle-Aland 27 Greek New Testament. That lists about 10,000 textual problems, giving almost all of the important ones (and a lot that are not important). If you know Greek, you can look at them yourself and see what the issues are. A little “p)” at the beginning of an entry indicates that certain scribes had changed the text in one gospel to conform to the wording in another.
Second, you could also look at Kurt Aland’s Synopsis Quattuor Evangeliorum. This gives more details than the NA27, but is restricted to the gospels.
Third, you could color-code the Synopsis AND the textual variants to show where there are agreements and disagreements. It takes a few hundred hours to do so, but it’s a profitable exercise. Of course, if you don’t know Greek, you’ll have to learn it first before you can do this. But I can’t think of a better way to see the differences among the manuscripts in the gospels. I can assure you that my opinions are not from secondary sources; I have done the work myself.
Fourth, you could read Bruce Metzger’s Textual Commentary for a discussion of about 2000 places in the text where there are significant variants. This book is a companion volume to the United Bible Societies’ Greek New Testament; thus, it presupposes that you know Greek.
Fifth, assuming you do not know any Greek, you could still access many of the more important textual problems by an examination of the “tc” notes in the NET Bible. We list about 800 or so there. Individual manuscripts are also listed, so you can track the discussion with real, concrete evidence.
Now, to be sure, none of these sources or even all of them together gives all the evidence. But that is precisely what the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts (www.csntm.org) is working on. Our ultimate goal is to create a database with all the known textual variants of all the known manuscripts so that we can trace the genealogical relations among the manuscripts and work back through the family tree to the original text. But we’ve got a long way to go before we can get that done.
Please understand that in a blog I don’t intend to use footnotes, nor back up what I’m saying. Jugulum is right that I do back up these kinds of comments elsewhere; you can especially see my writings posted on bible.org for some discussion. BTW, Jugulum has given excellent responses to your questions. I don’t know who he or she is, but I like what s/he has to say!
Finally, remember the last sentence in the blog: ” we can have a great deal of confidence that the essential message of the original text can be recovered, for there is always a witness to it.” That is based on about thirty years of investigating the data. You can see some discussion that moves in this direction in two books that I co-authored: Reinventing Jesus and Dethroning Jesus.
dbw
Jugulum on 08 Jan 2008 at 8:24 pm #
Ah!
First: “Scriptural errors” is ambiguous…and sometimes misleading. A more clear term would be “variant”–which means (roughly) a difference in the biblical manuscripts. (If some manuscripts say “Jesus Christ” and others say “Christ Jesus” in a particular verse, that would be two variants. But it would seem odd to me to call those “errors”–the difference really doesn’t matter.)
Second: As for links…I don’t know if I have any handy that match your request. You can check out this link for all the posts that Dan has made to this blog on the subject of text criticism:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/category/text-criticism/
It includes some numbers & discussion of the various issues.
More broadly, I can recommend some books if you’re looking for further reading.
Books
Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus — Ehrman is an apostate. Literally–he’s a former evangelical, now an agnostic or atheist. Some of his book involves a fairly good introduction to the subject of the biblical manuscripts. A lot of it is him trying to argue (badly) that the variants destroy our ability to know what the Bible says.
Dan Wallace has a review of Ehrman’s book, pointing out major flaws.
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=3452
Dan Wallace’s Reinventing Jesus — This includes a discussion of textual transmission–the manuscripts, the variants, etc. It’s sort of a response to Misquoting Jesus and The Da Vinci Code. (I haven’t read it yet, but I’m sure it’s good.)
James R. White’s The King James Only Controversy — Some people claim that the King James translation is the only true English Bible. That partly has to do with variants. White’s book deals with some good specific examples of variants, and why they do not cast doubt on essential theology.
Have fun.
Edited to add: Oh, good. Dan Wallace replied.
I started writing this comment before he posted.
Dan said, “BTW, Jugulum has given excellent responses to your questions. I don’t know who he or she is, but I like what s/he has to say!”
Thank you! Coming from you, that’s a tremendous compliment. FYI, I’m a “he”, but I’m no one in particular–just an interested layman. I’ve gotten my education from White’s material, a bit from The Theology Program, from D.A. Carson’s book on the KJVOnly debate, from Ehrman’s book, and from your excellent reviews of the last (at Bible.org) and from your articles here. Thank you so much for the ministry of your rigorous scholarship made clear to laypeople like us!
Jugulum on 08 Jan 2008 at 9:28 pm #
Dr. Wallace,
I was thinking about your response to Michael R.
Was there any particular reason that you recommended the Nestle-Aland 27 Greek New Testament (NA27), instead of the United Bible Society’s 4th edition of the Greek NT (UBS4)?
My understanding of the difference is this: Both of them show variants in the Greek text, with information about the manuscripts that support each option. (That is, “This manuscript and the other one contain reading A, while these other manuscripts contain reading B.”) NA27 talks about more variants than UBS4 does, but NA27 has less information about each one.
So do you recommend NA27 for laymen?
Dan Wallace on 08 Jan 2008 at 11:13 pm #
Jugulum, NA27 is really a Greek Testament for working in the manuscript data. The UBS text was originally meant for field translators, missionaries, etc. The Nestle apparatus discusses far more textual problems than the UBS, and that’s the main reason why it’s so valuable. However, even when it looks like it’s giving less data, that may not be the case. The apparatus compacts the data so that one symbol can stand for several manuscripts. And it is more accurately done. A lot of the data in the UBS apparatus is not necessary for making a textual decision. As for deciphering the data in gothic M in the Nestle apparatus (a most time-consuming task), there is a new program out that one of my sons and I spent six years on. It’s called the “TC Chart Timesaver” and is available at http://www.nttextualcriticism.com. It’s really nifty and helps cut down hours of work.
historic salve on 09 Jan 2008 at 5:14 am #
Dr. Wallace, could you explain in greater detail what you mean when you say:
“While Mark is attempting to get his readers to come to their own conclusions about Jesus, Matthew is attempting to get them to come to his conclusions. (This, by the way, explains why Mark ends his gospel at 16.8 rather than at 16.20: the reader is invited to think through the death and resurrection and consider whether he should embrace Jesus as both the suffering servant and the resurrected Lord. Mark, however, does not give him the option of just accepting Jesus in his glory. This is what Peter and the disciples originally wanted, and for this reason Mark leaves off any resurrection appearance to Peter and the disciples.)”
I haven’t heard this view of Mark’s intent before.
Dan Wallace on 09 Jan 2008 at 5:35 am #
It’s actually a pretty common view for those who hold that Mark intentionally ended his gospel at 16.8. What I’m saying is that his gospel is open-ended, dialogical, and it invites the reader to participate in the same call to discipleship that the apostles underwent. Mark is essentially saying, “What are you going to do with Jesus? If you don’t accept him in his suffering, you won’t get to see him in his glory.” He effectively leaves the reader hanging, having to make a decision about truly following Jesus or not.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 09 Jan 2008 at 3:24 pm #
Hi Professor Wallace, why did you choose the word “corruptions” in the title of this blog post? Is it preferable to the word “alterations”?
Dan Wallace on 09 Jan 2008 at 3:45 pm #
Dear Truth:
‘corruptions’ is an accurate description of what the scribes did, since they altered the wording of the text away from the original. An alteration is a neutral term, while a corruption indicates that what was corrupted was better. In this regard, I would consider the original wording to be the uncorrupted text precisely because it was the original text, and any alterations to it are therefore corruptions.
Michael Reichwein on 09 Jan 2008 at 3:57 pm #
Dan, thank you for taking your time to respond to my post. Yet I would ask that you consider my position as a Christian apologist. I have debated many atheists over the last ten years; and I am sure that they would love to use your article to support their worldview. Atheists would quote you as expert on scriptures and then declare; “Listen to what Dan has to say; the Christian’s Holy scriptures are full of errors and are unreliable.†Your article can leave your readers feeling disconcerted. Yes, I read a little Greek, and understand the problem of converting text from one language to another. I also know of the typographical errors that has crop up over time. However, your article speaks of the willful copying of one section of scripture into another section of section of scripture. Then altering the text a little as if this is an ever day event. Therefore, I do have a question for you:
Are you trying to tell the readers that the essential theology in scripture is in question?
Thanks again for your time
TAG-you’re it!
T. - Transcendental
A. - Argument
G. - for the existence of God
Truth Unites... and Divides on 09 Jan 2008 at 4:17 pm #
Professor Wallace, I want to thank you for your gracious response. Given how you’ve defined the terms, I can clearly see, understand, and (kinda shakily) support your choice of the word “corruptions”.
I’m kinda in the same boat as Michael Reichwein as far as trying to understand some key issues. Doctrine of inerrancy is tied to the original autographs (which we no longer have). Hence the field of text criticism.
What I’m trying to understand is the interface and relationship between Inerrancy and Text Criticism, especially given scribal corruptions. It’s been a while since I read your support of inerrancy over at Bible.org.
Can you help clear this up for me or post a helpful link to a previous article of yours?
Thanks in advance.
Vance on 09 Jan 2008 at 5:24 pm #
Michael R, the worst thing you can do in apologetics is ignore the facts when there are, indeed, facts.
I think if you want to start with your conclusion (Bible is inerrant) and then review the evidence in that light (rather than the other way around), then you will be required to take the facts on board and determine how that fits with your conclusion rather than just ignoring the evidence (and Dan does, indeed, have his evidence correct).
What most of us who are inerrantists have come to accept is that our definition of “inerrancy” has simply been too restrictive.
If you click in Dan’s other articles here:
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/category/dan-wallace-contra-mundane/
you can get a better feel for where he is coming from.
Dan Wallace on 09 Jan 2008 at 7:41 pm #
Thanks, Vance. Michael R., I’ll just add my two cents to this. Here’s the fact: there are hundreds of thousands of changes to the text of the New Testament in the existing manuscripts that we have today. This is undeniable. Fact 2: although a significantly smaller number of the changes were intentional than unintentional, there are still thousands that were done consciously by scribes. Fact 3: any manuscript of any substantial length has mistakes in it. Thus, assuming that a later scribe was copying scripture and he noted in his exemplar that there were mistakes in some places, he may well assume that there were mistakes in others. Indeed, this is most natural to assume. But the issue is, can he separate out the mistakes from the faithful copying? The evidence suggests that he cannot, but in fact adopts the reading that is smoother, has fewer theological problems, harmonizes to another passage, etc. However, since not all the scribes did the same thing, it is not too difficult to determine the wording of the original text in at least 99% of the places.
As far as apologetics are concerned, I think the very best apologetic is to always tell the truth. I know you know this. And that’s why I noted above that these were the facts that we must all deal with.
As for the impact of textual variants on theology, I think I’ve made it clear more than once in this thread that I do not believe that any essential doctrine is affected by viable variants.
Jugulum on 09 Jan 2008 at 7:44 pm #
Michael R.,
Regarding your interaction with skeptics:
First, I would echo what Vance said about ignoring facts. I realize you don’t want to ignore facts–you’re questioning whether they really are facts. That’s fair–you should probe these claims. If we just say “Dan has his facts correct,” that can’t persuade you. So, take it as an expression of our confidence that if you do carefully check the evidence, it will bear out what Dan is saying.
Second, you’re right, there are skeptics who will point to something like Dan’s article and say, “See!!!”
Well, we should listen to their arguments, of course. But I’m fairly sure they’re being idiots.
That kind of knee-jerk response comes from people who aren’t paying attention. Either they’re grabbing at excuses for disbelief, or they’re not listening carefully to what’s being said–and they’re clinging to preconceived ideas.
As I said, Bart Ehrman is a scholar on the skeptics’ side, and his book Misquoting Jesus tries to make the case that we can’t rely on the Greek text. He made his case, and it’s about the best anyone’s going to be able to make. His book wasn’t all bad, but in his main conclusion–his attempt to weaken confidence in the text–he fails. His arguments are bad. If you want to understand where Dan’s coming from better, I encourage you to read his critique of Ehrman’s book.
Third, you asked Dan if he was saying that essential theology is in doubt. He answered no. (Sometimes we may lose one verse that we like to use to prove a doctrine–but that doctrine is still taught elsewhere.) If you look in the link I just gave, you can see how he responds to Ehrman’s poor attempt to say “Yes, essential theology is in doubt.”
I also want to recommend again James White’s book on the KJV controversy. It’s got a good example of how the variants don’t affect doctrine. See, KJVOnly people will try to say that the variants attack the deity of Christ. Why? Because there are some places in the NT where one reading (one version of the variant) has a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ–and the other reading doesn’t. But they’re being silly, because all we lose are a few extra proofs. The NT still teaches that Jesus was God! (If we only read the verses where there are no variants, the Bible still clearly teaches that Jesus was God.) White’s book looks at specific evidence–what the variants are, and why they don’t matter.
So, if you want strong evidence to disprove what those skeptics are trying to say, read all these materials. This stuff doesn’t destroy our confidence in Scripture–it bolsters it.
Michael Reichwein on 09 Jan 2008 at 8:17 pm #
Fact: there are hundreds of thousands of changes to the text of the New Testament in the existing manuscripts that we have today
Fact 2: although a significantly smaller number of the changes were intentional than unintentional, there are still thousands that were done consciously by scribes
Fact 3: any manuscript of any substantial length has mistakes in it. Thus, assuming that a later scribe was copying scripture and he noted in his exemplar that there were mistakes in some places, he may well assume that there were mistakes in others.
About your fact #1: I agree that there have been typographical errors; but you have not really expounded on the extent of the “changes to the text†you proposed.
You know … examples!
About your fact #2: Since there are none that know the mind or intentionally of the scribe; it meaningless to speculate on their purpose. It become pure linguistic fantasy.
About your fact #3: Well, fact #3 is the pinnacle of subjective insertions. Its one lone assumption on your part; without fact or foundation.
Dr. Walter Martin came from a long line of lawyers; thou he did not follow on, in the family tradition. However, what he says has prominence at this juncture. Men presenting cases before the bench, either great or small; both need to present the facts.
This is why I asked for example of deliberate tampering with scripture. And the easy way, to my mind is to compare an earlier version with a newer version highlighting the damage.
This would be a very simple way for you to prove your case!
Ps. I am still waiting with raped attention for facts to show damage to the essential theology.
Thanks Dan for your time
Michael Reichwein (TAG-you’re it!)
Dan Wallace on 10 Jan 2008 at 6:34 am #
Michael R., I’m going to assume that you were writing your comment while I was posting mine (comment #22) and Jugulum was posting his (comment #23). Because, otherwise I can’t for the life of me figure out why you wrote “I am still waiting with raped [sic] attention for facts to show damage to the essential theology.” How you ever got the idea that I believe that that’s what happened is beyond me. Not only have I posted and published against such a notion multiple times—on bible.org, on RMM, in Reinventing Jesus, Dethroning Jesus, and in Lee Strobel’s interview of me in The Case for the Real Jesus—but I’ve said it more than once in this very blog and the comments that I wrote afterward.
I wrote in that last comment, “As for the impact of textual variants on theology, I think I’ve made it clear more than once in this thread that I do not believe that any essential doctrine is affected by viable variants.”
But I’m beginning to think that you’re not paying much attention to what any of us is saying. You ask for examples after we already gave some; you ask for sources, and we supply numerous sources.
Nevertheless, I will try one more time. You said, “This is why I asked for example of deliberate tampering with scripture. And the easy way, to my mind[,] is to compare an earlier version with a newer version highlighting the damage.” Yep, that would be a good way to do it.
Mark 1.2: Some manuscripts say ‘Isaiah the prophet’ while most of the later ones say ‘the prophets.’ The quotation that follows is both from Malachi and Isaiah. Most scholars think that the later scribes changed the wording so that it would not impugn Mark’s character by making his introductory comments generic enough to incorporate the quotation from Malachi. That’s one view. Another is that ‘the prophets’ is original and ‘Isaiah the prophet’ was put in its place because of the pull of Isaiah as the lead major prophet. Either way, a deliberate change seems to have occurred.
Matthew 27.16-17: Most manuscripts speak of Barabbas as the one whom Jesus Christ became a substitute for on the cross. However, an important group of manuscripts have ‘Jesus’ before the name Barabbas. It’s exceedingly difficult to find an accidental reason why scribes would add such a name before that of a known criminal. Further, Origen, the third century Christian scholar, argued against the ‘Jesus Barabbas’ reading on this basis: no criminal in the Bible is ever named Jesus. Admittedly, this is pretty bad logic, but because of Origen’s authority concerning the manuscripts, scribes no doubt bought into his argument and deleted the name ‘Jesus’ before ‘Barabbas.’
Mark 16.9-20: No stretch of the imagination can explain how these twelve verses were ADDED to the text accidentally! Now, it is barely possible that they are original and were deleted accidentally, but that is so remote as to be negligible.
John 7.53-8.11: same situation as Mark 16.9-20.
Mark 1.41: Most manuscripts say that Jesus showed compassion when he healed the leper, but the Western manuscripts say that he was angry when he healed him. I am inclined to think that the Western text is correct here. But the two words do not at all look alike in Greek, meaning that if one was the original wording, the other was put in there intentionally as a substitute.
John 5.3b-4: the stirring of the waters of the pool of Bethesda by the angel of the Lord is mentioned in this verse, a verse that is missing in the oldest and best manuscripts. Could it be that these older manuscripts deleted the text accidentally? Not likely. Either they intentionally suppressed it or later scribes added it because John’s story seemed to assume too much and needed this verse to clarify its meaning. Most scholars think that 5.3b-4 is not authentic.
These are but a few of the illustrations I could give. You can check the NET Bible notes for hundreds more.
melcartera on 10 Jan 2008 at 8:54 am #
Hi, Michael R.
I had wanted to give Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53–8:11, but I see that Dr. Wallace has already given them.
Here’s another one:
Mark 1:1—some manuscripts do not have “the Son of God”.
Other than the variation in Mark 1:41, all of the examples given by Dr. Wallace, and Mark 1:1, are noted in modern language versions of the Bible (or New Testament) with footnotes.
The Mark 1:1 variation really blew the mind of one of my classmates in seminary. He exploded, “How could any manuscript not have the words ‘Son of God’?” But that’s the fact: some manuscripts have those words. some don’t.
Vance on 10 Jan 2008 at 10:35 am #
One extra factor to throw in when we all are reading our favorite translation: they are put together by scholars who are all aware of what Dan is talking about and do their best not just to translate correctly, but to choose the best manuscripts to translate from in the first place. Sometimes they have to choose among CONFLICTING early manuscripts and that is what Dan and his colleagues are there for: to tell them which ones are MOST LIKELY to contain the original texts as written by the Apostles.
That is why some will even say in the notes “some texts say X” just to cover their bases.
There is no attack on essential theology here, unless a particular flavor of “inerrancy” has risen to “essential”, which would be unfortunate.
vinny on 10 Jan 2008 at 11:59 am #
I don’t think that Ehrman’s work is being fairly characterized. I don’t think he is arguing that the “variants destroy our ability to know what the Bible says.†I think he would argue that some of the variants were intentional changes by scribes for theological reasons. He acknowledges that these are an extremely small portion of the known variants. However, it raises the question of unknown variants and it raises the question of what intentional changes might have been made for theological reasons between the autographs and the copies we have now. It also raises the question of how the stories about Jesus might have been altered for theological purposes between the time of Jesus’ death and the time they were first recorded.
As far as I can tell, there does not seem to be much dispute about the degree of corruption. The disagreement is over the implications of that corruption for the doctrines of inerrancy, infallibility, and inspiration. Ehrman “began seeing the New Testament as a very human book.†I agree with him.
I often see comparisons between the reliability of the New Testament and the reliability of other ancient texts and they have always struck me as unimpressive. If forty pages of the Illiad are wrong, who cares? But if forty lines of the New Testament are wrong, that could be huge. Change one verse in 2 Peter and you lose the primary pillar for the argument that the New Testament is inspired scripture on a par with the Old Testament. If a few lines in the Gospel of John are wrong then our understanding of Christ’s divinity might be radically different. If a few lines in Romans are wrong, there might be real problems with our understanding of the relationship between faith and works.
Vance on 10 Jan 2008 at 12:39 pm #
I have listened to hours upon hours of lectures from Ehrman, basically most of his college courses, available through The Teaching Company. Two things become very evident when you spend that much time with him:
1. he knows his stuff.
2. he definitely has an agenda and is not above spinning the evidence to support that agenda.
He seems to get all the facts right (a good strategy when you have an agenda), but some of his presumptions, and thus his conclusions, are based on his faulty concepts of inspiration, inerrancy and theology he absorbed in a fundamentalist upbringing.
He grew up being taught such a rigid and simplistic view of what these concepts are all about that when faced with the stark facts which contradict those rigidly held views, he had no option, he believed, but to abandon his faith (rather than abandon or at least modify his incorrect theological presumptions). It was easier to keep the inerrancy and infallibility issues “black and white” and just dismiss them than to realize that it is much more complex and nuanced and retain both faith AND the facts.
Having done so, he seems now on a mission to justify his abandonment of the faith in some way.
Jugulum on 10 Jan 2008 at 1:04 pm #
vinny,
I just have a moment to post, so I won’t get into arguments you raised. But I want to comment on whether I fairly characterized Ehrman’s work.
I’ll grant that I worded it poorly when I said that Ehrman argues, “variants destroy our ability to know what the Bible says.” That’s not precisely right–destroy is too strong.
But it doesn’t require much of a correction. If I changed it to, “The variants damage or eliminate our confidence in our ability to know what the Bible says,” it would match pretty closely with what you yourself are arguing.
Really, I don’t see any significant points of mischaracterization. Perhaps you can point out something I’m missing, but it looks rather nitpicky to me.
P.S. On your recognizing that the Bible is a human document: Good! I’m glad you can see that. The Bible is a very human document. No one should think otherwise. The Christian view of inspiration is not that God dictates the Scripture to the writers, but that God works through the writers. Their personality comes out in the writing, and Paul’s letter include various greetings (and a request for someone to bring his cloak when they visit!)
Calling it a human document is very different from saying that people changed it and we don’t know where and we don’t know if our theology is all wrong because of it.
Vance on 10 Jan 2008 at 1:35 pm #
Jugulum, this gets back to a little bone I picked with Dr. Wallace a few months ago, and which he clarified.
My point was that if God was intending the Scriptures to be a communication to all Christians, even unto today, and if God can be considered an effective communicator, then He would ensure that the text we have received effectively conveyed His message to us. This doesn’t mean that there would be no “errors” of any type slip into the various texts along the way, but that none of those variants would result in significant theological impact.
Mr. Wallace pointed out that this does not do away with the need to drill down to get the most “pure” form of the text, since that could lead to deeper and clearer understanding of many things, even if the essential theology is intact either way.
I hope I am not mischaracterizing Dr. Wallace, but that is my understanding of where he is coming from.
Jugulum on 10 Jan 2008 at 2:00 pm #
Vance,
I think you gave a fair description of the doctrine of preservation. It does not mean, as some think, that we must know with 100% certainty every word of the original inspired text. I don’t care whether a particular verse says “Christ Jesus” or “Jesus Christ” or just “Jesus” or just “Christ”. (That’s a very basic kind of variant.) Nor do I care too much that I’m not sure whether the story of the adulteress belongs in John’s gospel–it doesn’t affect my understanding of sin and forgiveness.
Isaiah 55:11 is a good backbone for this doctrine:
“so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”
Now, that doesn’t answer the question of how much variation is acceptable. That would have to be worked out–you might allow too much, I might not allow enough. But the basic idea seems sound.
We should clarify, though: We’re not saying, “We have this doctrine of preservation, so the variants can’t be too bad.” that is, we’re not just basing our confidence on our theological need for it. Rather, we’re saying, “The variants aren’t bad; this fits with our beliefs.”
Vance on 10 Jan 2008 at 2:21 pm #
I would take that one step further, maybe one step you may not be able to take along with me. Since I DO believe that God is a good communicator, and that Scripture is God’s message (these are admittedly pre-existing theological presumptions, based on faith, not through some logical deductive process), that I feel perfectly comfortable saying that if there are significant defects which have led to us having a particular flawed word, phrase or even passage, then these words or phrases, BY DEFINITION, can not have significant theological impact regarding any essentials.
In short (to oversimplify), if there is a text that someone THOUGHT was dramatically important to their theology, then finds out that the text was not correct, then that should inform them that the text was not an “essential” after all. This is why I think it is dangerous to base dogmatic theological positions on a single expression or phrase. I don’t think essential theology is found in the fine subtle details, but in the clear broad scope of the Scripture wholly considered.
BTW, as a Gideon, I always love hearing that verse in Isaiah, since it is one we quote in our basic messages to the churches!
vinny on 10 Jan 2008 at 2:41 pm #
Jugulum
I am reluctant to go too far in asserting what Ehrman might argue, but I personally think we probably have a very good idea of what the Bible says. However, I believe that what it says reflects in part the theological understandings of the scribes who copied it. I believe it reflects in part the theological understanding of early Christians who decided which writings would be deemed suitable for liturgical use. I believe it reflects the varied theological understandings of the original authors of the various books as well as many others who contributed to transmitting the books we have today.
Jugulum on 10 Jan 2008 at 2:58 pm #
Hmm…
I’ll have to mull it over.
At first glance, I agree with this: “it is dangerous to base dogmatic theological positions on a single expression or phrase. I don’t think essential theology is found in the fine subtle details, but in the clear broad scope of the Scripture wholly considered.”
So, essential theology does not come from the details of a single verse.
And I agree that if the doctrine of preservation is true, then variants will never have significant theological impact regarding any essentials. That’s what the doctrine says (as I articulated it)–God will prevent bad variants from happening. (Or, rather, there might be a manuscript somewhere with a bad variant, but he’ll make sure the evidence shows it’s obviously not the original.)
But I can’t see myself arguing that “BY DEFINITION,” variants can’t have significant impact on essentials. I don’t want to assume preservation when I look at the evidence, I want to look at the evidence and conclude preservation is legitimate.
Do you disagree, or did I misunderstand you?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 10 Jan 2008 at 3:17 pm #
So, essential theology does not come from the details of a single verse.
Ha, ha, ha, ha. That’s a good one, Jugulum. You and I would like to think so, but I can tell you that you’re badly mistaken.
Take a look at this verse from Matthew 16:
“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”
From that one verse the Roman Catholic Church justifies its ecclesiology and theology and … you name it.
Professor Wallace directed an excellent master’s thesis by a young woman at DTS on this one verse. I gave the paper to a friend who was (and probably still is) one of the leading Greek scholars in Canada. She scrutinized it and said that there were a few errors, but that the M.Div. student was essentially correct.
I then consulted with others. They said give it up. It’s a hopeless endeavor. Rome, the Vatican, the Curia, the Magisterium, you name it, they’ve had centuries of scholarship on this ONE verse.
I give you this background Jugulum so that you can understand my laughter at your comment that essential theology does not come from the details of a single verse.
Vance on 10 Jan 2008 at 4:05 pm #
Jugulum:
Your last point comes down to whether we insist that our Christian position be able to be established entirely objectively, without any presumptions based on faith. Michael and I have a bit of a running minor disagreement of emphasis on this point. He leans much more toward the idea that our Christian beliefs must be objectively supportable, meaning that an entirely objective review of the evidence would lead to the conclusion that Christianity is the best explanation.
My general leaning is that an entirely objective review of the evidence would be inconclusive, but that the evidence would not contradict sound Christian belief. I think that a devout faith ultimately is based on the “evidence of things not seen”, or as professor Nassif described in his Simply Orthodox podcast number 5, a conviction or certitude of the heart. That is a bit too wishy-washy for Michael!!
As I have often said (and I think many will disagree) I don’t think you can logic your way to God.
So, for me, I have no problem with starting with some basic faith-based presumptions, such as “God created everything”, etc. These I can hold absent any objective evidence, and in some cases I can say that the objective evidence would not lead conclusively to that conclusion. One of these is that “Scripture is God’s message to humanity”, which comes with the concept of preservation.
I think that the pendulum swings too far between Modernism and Post-modernism in such things. I think that a scholarly review of the evidence is important to show that it is not contradictory, properly viewed, with Christianity. But I think that this “Modern” approach goes to far when it pushes for the concept that Christian belief needs to be “provable” by such evidence. Not only is this approach unnecessary, in my opinion, it can be dangerous. If we argue such a standard, but then can’t meet it, we have damaged the Gospel message (thus my disagreement with “creation science”).
Sorry, Dan, for taking this thread off in a different direction!
Jugulum on 10 Jan 2008 at 4:38 pm #
TUaD:
Well, sure, but they’re Catholics. They do all sorts of silly things.
But seriously. In their minds they’re not getting essential theology from the details of a single verse. They’re getting it from that verse plus the great nebulous beast “tradition”, which carries equal authority.
Theoretically, a Catholic could agree with what I said, with one small change: “We don’t get essential theology from the details of a single infallibly authoritative statement.” The difference is, we Protestants only recognize one kind of infallibly authoritative statement–a verse from the Bible.
Vance:
Hmm, I recall this discussion from another recent entry here, but I don’t think it’s quite what I was saying. I didn’t mean we should “insist that our Christian position be able to be established entirely objectively, without any presumptions based on faith.” I wasn’t addressing that question.
I meant, we should be able to show that Preservation is consistent with the evidence. We should be able to approach the variants and say, “That doesn’t affect essential theology. Here’s why.” We shouldn’t have to retreat from the variants and say, “Oh, I guess that point wasn’t essential theology, after all.” If we ever have to retreat from “Jesus is God” because of variants, it would be a big problem. We couldn’t just say, “I guess that wasn’t as important as we thought.”
That’s not enough to establish our position. It’s enough to counter a particular claim that our position is absurd.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 10 Jan 2008 at 4:58 pm #
In their minds they’re not getting essential theology from the details of a single verse. They’re getting it from that verse plus the great nebulous beast “traditionâ€, which carries equal authority.
Jugulum, that one verse is the linchpin, the underlying foundation for the great nebulous beasts “Tradition” and “Church” which when combined with RCC’s Scripture (which includes the apocrypha), they proclaim what is “essential theology”.
There is no way to minimize the importance of that single verse. It is major. It divides the RCC from the EO. And it divides the RCC from all the Protestant churches.
Jugulum on 10 Jan 2008 at 5:15 pm #
I don’t want to minimize the importance of that single verse. But I’m not sure it’s correct to call it the “underlying foundation” for their concepts of “Tradition” and “Church”. In one sense, sure, of course you’re right. But there’s more to it. I think that if we didn’t have that verse…We would still have the Roman Catholic Church exactly as it is.
Yeah, it’s the only (or primary) verse they appeal to, so it’s very important to the debate.
But ask yourself this: How many Catholic apologists think that they even need a Bible verse to prove their position? If Matt. 16:18 never existed, how many Catholic apologists would still say, “The Magisterium & apostolic tradition tells us that Peter was the first Pope, and tradition is authoritative”?
Vance is right, though. This is pretty off-topic. We could continue in the forum, if you want. Or you could email me. I have a gmail.com account with my username (jugulum). Or there’s a contact form on my blog.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 10 Jan 2008 at 5:23 pm #
We’re in full agreement on the majors, and merely quibbling over the minors.
As to your hypothetical, I don’t know. Undercutting Matt. 16:18 would take a lot of wind and hot air out of their sails.
Incidentally, and somewhat off-topic, I’m a bit dismayed that some really wonderful Protestant scholars swam the Tiber. I’m thinking of Peter Kreeft, Francis Beckwith, and J. Budzisewski (sp?).
But at least they didn’t become atheist/agnostic like Ehrman and John Loftus.
Vance on 10 Jan 2008 at 5:33 pm #
Jugulum, yes, I would agree with that in general. I think we are basically reaching the same end point. I think it is a matter of emphasis and leaning.
If there is a seeming conflict between a conclusion from the evidence and a particular Christian belief, there are only so many possibilities.
1. The conclusion is not, even objectively, the best one from the evidence.
2. The conclusion might be objectively logical and the “best” answer, but it is not conclusive one way or the other (which requires faith presumptions to conclude against the most logical answer).
3. The conclusion is correct, and our particular belief is wrong, but that belief was not essential, so our Christian faith is still valid.
4. The conclusion is correct, and the particular belief IS essential (and wrong) and so our Christian faith also wrong.
The more “Modernistic” the Christian is, the more they tend to insist that if it is not 1, it will end up being 4. So, some will tend to hammer away at establishing 1, rather than conceding that it might be 2 or 3. Ironically, the ones who insist the most on 1 are the most likely to end up concluding 4 and losing their faith (like Ehrman).
I agree with your “Jesus is God” as a good example of the extreme, where we can not just say it was not essential after all. But Modern Christians tend to assign much more to their “essential” category than I tend to do, so I am much more likely to be landing in 2 or 3 on a given point.
In short, I am more willing to accept more things as non-essential in the face of strong evidence to the contrary, whereas others are more likely to hold fast to their doctrine and dispute the evidence. It is all sliding scale of tendency.
Luckily, very few of the variants Dr. Wallace has discussed in these articles even comes close to an “essential”, unless of course you make an essential out of a particular view of inerrancy.
Jugulum on 10 Jan 2008 at 7:05 pm #
TUaD,
Yeah, “quibbling” seems like a fair label. I’m willing to let it lie.
Vance,
Well, shall we talk about the impeccability of Jesus next, or perhaps open theism?
(I hear that managing a combox is like herding cats.)
Vance on 10 Jan 2008 at 7:21 pm #
Usually all such discussion seem to slide into the origins questions!
A certain leeway is allowed, but I think we maintained just enough of a link to the OP that we can be forgiven!
Michael Reichwein on 10 Jan 2008 at 9:32 pm #
I would like to take the time to thanks all for those who have responded to my posts. As far as reading all of the posts; there is simple not enough time for me to do so. However, I would like to thank Dan personally for his efforts in setting the record straight. I am sorry that I had questioned your remarks on a position that you had already confirmed in an earlier post. I am sure that to others you are well known; yet to me I do not know anything about you or of the worldview, you espouse to be true. As for me, I have learned presuppositional apologetics from Dr. Greg Bahnsen. Hermeneutics from Dr. Walter Martin. Questioning everybody and everything from Chuck Missler. Persistence from Ian Paisley. And humility from reading Fox’s Book of the Martyrs.
Please take care! In addition, May God use you greatly!
Michael Reichwein
Michael Reichwein on 11 Jan 2008 at 5:19 am #
I would like to take the time to thanks all for those who have responded to my posts. As far as reading all of the posts; there is simple not enough time for me to do so. However, I would like to thank Dan personally for his efforts in setting the record straight. I am sorry that I had questioned your remarks on a position that you had already confirmed in an earlier post. I am sure that you are well known; yet to me I do not know anything about you or of the worldview, you espouse to be true. I have learned presuppositional apologetics from Dr. Greg Bahnsen. Hermeneutics from Dr. Walter Martin. Questioning everybody and everything from Chuck Missler. Persistence from Ian Paisley. And humility from reading Fox’s Book of the Martyrs.
Again Thanks a lot for your time; In addition, May God use you greatly!
TAG-you’re it!
Michael Reichwein on 11 Jan 2008 at 5:23 am #
I would like to take the time to thanks all for those who have responded to my posts. As far as reading all of the posts; there is simple not enough time for me to do so. However, I would like to thank Dan personally for his efforts in setting the record straight. I am sorry that I had questioned your remarks on a position that you had already confirmed in an earlier post. I am sure that you are well known; yet to me I do not know anything about you or of the worldview, you espouse to be true. For my part; the educational influences have been:
Presuppositional apologetics from Dr. Greg Bahnsen.
Hermeneutics from Dr. Walter Martin.
Questioning everybody and everything from Chuck Missler.
Persistence from Ian Paisley.
And humility from reading Fox’s Book of the Martyrs.
Again Thanks a lot for your time; In addition, May God use you greatly!
TAG-you’re it!
steve moore on 11 Jan 2008 at 7:27 am #
Where did all of Michael R’s posts go?
(btw, moderators dont need to post this message)
C Michael Patton on 11 Jan 2008 at 9:53 am #
Steve and Michael,
I don’t know what happened. It looks like they all got transferred to the spam and I don’t know why. This sometimes happens where all the comments of a certian person goes to the spam filter. I restored them.
I guess the spam does not like Michael’s comments. Maybe it is satanic
Michael Reichwein on 11 Jan 2008 at 4:47 pm #
Ok! I will pretend that I am “TAG-you’re it!†pretending that I am not “Tag-you’re it!†pretending I am “Tag-you’re it!†so I do not end up in Spam Heaven! Hahahah! I think I even fooled me…OH! Wait, who am I?
I am truly sorry for the double post. The first post did not seem to go anywhere so I tried posting again!
Dan, I am very sorry for the trouble I caused you. I chalk it up, in part to my many years of debating atheists. You know how it is in logic debates to wait for the opponent to slip in his chain of reasoning. Well, I sometimes use the same in tactic while talking to others. Chuck Missler taught me to compare “what people say to be trueâ€, against “that which we know to be trueâ€. Therefore, when I first read your article, I had walked away with the impression that you were soft on critical issues within the scriptures. That is not the case! Thank you!
I was not meaning to be offensive when I said that I did not know anything about you. I would assume that you are not a writer of apologetics.
TAG-you’re it! ( I think! HaHa!)
Michael Reichwein on 12 Jan 2008 at 11:21 am #
and again
Christopher Ignatius on 12 Jan 2008 at 2:09 pm #
There seems to be a fundamental problem with this post. It does not account for the fact that often the “Corruptions” are MORE authentic than the originals. Specifically, the story of the woman caught in adultery is something that I believe we would all agree to be canonical, but it does not find its way into the Gospel of John until well after the original dissemination of the work. We find similar pseudepigraphia (by both traditional and biblical standards) throughout the New Testament. Many would consider the Pastoral Epistles as works which were, at least in part, written by a later disciple of Paul. The discourse to the Hebrews was almost definitely not Paul and has more in common with the letter from the Church of Rome to Corinth (commonly called I Clement) or the apocryphal Epistle of Barnabus.
It also seems prudent to correct one thing which has been mentioned above regarding Roman Catholic (and indeed, all apostolic Churches). There is no belief in two authorities. To say that we draw a dichotomy between scripture and tradition is erroneous at best. To the Catholic, the Orthodox, and the Oriental, there is one Authority, Christ. That one authority has a body, and that body is His Church. As this body is united to Christ and is pure and virginal, she will never doctrinally err. Rather, instead of the dichotomy which has been erroneously asserted, there is the view that the Church’s tradition and the Bible are one in the same.
Dan Wallace on 12 Jan 2008 at 10:56 pm #
Folks, I was speaking at the University of Michigan the last two days and just got back. Sorry for not engaging in the discussion that has taken some intriguing turns in 48 hours! I’d just like to address the last post, the one by Christopher Ignatius:
Ignatius, that’s a curious argument of yours: ‘the corruptions are more authentic that the originals.’ ‘Authentic’ means ‘original,’ so how can a coruption be more original than the original? You also said that all of us would agree that the story of the woman caught in adultery is canonical. Not true. I don’t think it is. I don’t believe it is literarily authentic (that is, not written by the evangelist) nor is it exactly historically authentic. It was added to the Gospel of John much later and really should not have a place in the Bible, as much as I would like it to! See my earlier blog on this very topic, “My Favorite Passage that’s Not in the Bible.†As for Hebrews being pseudepigrapha, that’s not technically correct. A pseudepigraph is a document that ascribes the authorship to someone who was not the author. Hebrews is an anonymous work, so by definition it can’t be pseudepigraphical. The other example you give, the pastoral epistles, also is problematic. Although it is true that many would regard these books as pseudepigraphical, by no means would all hold to this view. There is an increasing amount of evidence that shows that the early Christians were decidedly against pseudepigraphical writings and would not tolerate accepting such writings as scripture. If the early church was led by the Holy Spirit to discover what was canonical, and if the methods they used were also in line with the Spirit’s guidance, then your view has a problem. First, because you are arguing for canonical status on a basis that is entirely different from what the early church saw as valid. Second, because you are at the same time elevating tradition to a role that most Protestants would feel uncomfortable with, yet are eschewing the very tradition that had a role in discovering what belonged in the canon. It seems that you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too.
C Michael Patton on 13 Jan 2008 at 9:16 pm #
Friends, there is a reason why the posts are limited in size. Please read the rules. Keep the posts short.
Christopher Ignatius on 13 Jan 2008 at 9:20 pm #
Did you just delete the entire comment?
C Michael Patton on 13 Jan 2008 at 9:24 pm #
Yes, but I sent you a copy of both so that you could modify them.
Christopher Ignatius on 13 Jan 2008 at 9:33 pm #
*Aside — While “original” and “authentic” can be synonymic, they were not used as such in my post.
As to your assertion that I am eschewing tradition, I must wonder on that. There is value in using the texts promulgated by the ancient Church as authentic. “If the early church was led by the Holy Spirit to discover what was canonical, and if the methods they used were also in line with the Spirit’s guidance,” then we should likewise include what was included and reject that which was rejected. Our standard be, “What was brought into the canon?” instead of, “What was originally written?” If these men were endowed by the Spirit with the authority and wisdom to discern the canon, then their testimony becomes paramount.
If, on the other hand, your standard is that only the original sources should be included, then the difficulty comes in reconciling the different sources of many of the books, in both Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Most immediately, from the Greek scriptures, is the fairly common belief that there is a, quite probably, Jewish author who wrote much of Revelation. And Hebrew scriptures make the task even easier — Isaiah has three authors, Genesis has at least the same.
We must acknowledge the fact that often the early Christians would cite things which we now know could not possibly be what they claim to be. Isaiah, to continue from above, only wrote the first 40 or so chapters of the text attributed to him (see the Oxford Annotated NRSV, John Collins’ Introduction to the Hebrew Bible or New Jerome Bible Commentary). This means that those who quote the Servant Songs, like Paul (Rom. 3:15-17), are quoting things which are clearly apocryphal. So then, what should we take from this? I see two positions one can take. Either God uses the redaction process and Paul is quoting something which is scripture, or he is quoting something which is not scripture as scripture. It seems that the latter causes logical difficulties which are not easily reconciled.
Dan Wallace on 13 Jan 2008 at 9:42 pm #
Christopher, it’s plain that you’re not familiar with evangelical views on many things, including authorship. You are assuming things as part of the foundation of your argument that I would not buy. As to authentic vs. original, since you are entering into a discussion about textual criticism, you need to use your terminology in a way that is consistent with that discipline. You can quote definitions that mean something different, and you can cite sources that speak of three Isaiahs, but neither is a compelling argument, or even an argument at all. And when you speak about tradition, it seems that you are suggesting that we should adopt the results of what the early church embraced but not the methods by which they embraced them. In fact, you are claiming that we should wholeheartedly reject those methods. I would say that you are definitely eschewing tradition when you do that.
vinny on 13 Jan 2008 at 10:05 pm #
Dan,
Could you define “early church?” Since the establishment of the canon took several hundred years and a variety of books with disparate pedigrees were considered, how much can we say definitively about the methods as opposed to the results?
Dan Wallace on 13 Jan 2008 at 11:44 pm #
Vinny, that’s an excellent question. What I mean by the early church is the second century through the fourth century church. As far as the methods that the early church used to discover the canon, however, I think it’s an overgeneralization to say that it took several hundred years. On the one hand, there never was a universal counsel that acknowledged all 27 books of the NT. This shows both that the early church was not orchestrating or conspiring to put some books in and leave some out and that the definition of canon is a collection of authoritative books rather than an authoritative collection of books.
On the other hand, it’s quite misleading to say that it took ’several hundred years’ to establish the canon because (a) at least 20 of the 27 books were recognized by the end of the second century in the Muratorian fragment, (b) by the early fourth century Eusebius spoke of all 27, though waffling on some, and (c) by 367 all 27 books were considered canonical in the eastern branch of Christendom. Indeed, there was never a time, as far as the records reveal, when any of the gospels or Paul’s letters were considered uncanonical by the orthodox community. Now, I don’t believe that we have enough evidence to say that all 17 of these books were immediately accepted as canonical, especially since notions of canonicity cannot easily be found in the first half of the second century. But notions of authority can, and these books were considered authoritative for the life and beliefs of the church very early on. Quite a bit of research has been done on that front, and the best evidence suggests that the gospels were considered authoritative in the first decade or two of the second century, and Paul’s letters not much later than that. So, it really is misleading to speak of several hundred years before the establishment of the canon. As well, the methods were consistent across the board on three fronts: apostolicity (or antiquity), catholicity (or usage in most churches), and orthodoxy. These three principles guided the church in making their decisions. How are you seeing the methods as different from that?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 14 Jan 2008 at 6:35 am #
“As far as the methods that the early church used to discover the canon, however, I think it’s an overgeneralization to say that it took several hundred years.” (Prof. Wallace)
At the risk of making an obvious point to those already in the know, it might be helpful for others to know that Professor Wallace’s choice of the verb “discover” in the quote above highlights one of the key and enduring divisions between Protestants on one hand and Roman Catholics (and I believe Eastern Orthodox too) on the other.
I believe that the RC/EO’s would assert that the Church determined the canon rather than discovering the canon. I.e., that the Church gave us the Word.
The Reformers would claim that this is exactly backwards.
This tension in the underlying presupposition then manifests itself in the discussion btw Professor Wallace and Christopher Ignatius.
The presupposition may be Sola Scriptura, or more broadly, all 5 Solas. Versus Roman Catholic theology. (I’m waiting til heaven to see that one resolved.
Christopher Ignatius on 14 Jan 2008 at 6:42 am #
“As to authentic vs. original, since you are entering into a discussion about textual criticism, you need to use your terminology in a way that is consistent with that discipline.”
My apologies. That said, contextually it does not seem to be particularly difficult to read that the two words were not being used synonymously.
“You can quote definitions that mean something different”
This was never intended as an argument. (Citing Websters rarely is). It was simply correcting the problem of communication which we arrived at.
“you can cite sources that speak of three Isaiahs,”
The citation is to prevent a counter-statement, “Not everyone holds this view”. The argument was that the Church has endorsed redacted works in the past as scripture.
“it seems that you are suggesting that we should adopt the results of what the early church embraced but not the methods by which they embraced them.”
I am suggesting that if the Spirit guided the process, then the results are good. The early church attributed the first Gospel to Matthew. It also said that the Gospel of Matthew was originally in Aramaic or Hebrew (If memory serves, “The language of the Jews” is the quote.). It is unlikely that our Matthew was the same text (though it is definitely Jewish). If this is true, then ought we remove Matthew because it does not, in fact, have apostolic auhtorship? (Actually, on this point, I’m hoping Q (if it is real and it is eventually discovered) will turn out to be an Aramaic proto-Matthew… That would be fun).
I quoted the sources which asserted Deutero-Isaiah for much the same reason. Even though most scholars will say that Isaiah 40 and following was not by Isaiah, IT IS STILL SCRIPTURE.
“In fact, you are claiming that we should wholeheartedly reject those methods.”
I am saying that redaction happens, it is not always a bad thing, and it is more likely than not that the additions are endorced by the Spirit.
vinny on 14 Jan 2008 at 10:59 am #
Dan,
My statement may not be a detailed account of the process, but I don’t think it is at all “misleading.†I think you are only looking at half the process. Establishing the canon involved issues of exclusion as well as inclusion. Twenty of the twenty-seven books might have been recognized by the end of the second century, but books beyond the twenty-seven were still being considered well into the fourth century. I don’t think we can say the canon was “established†until books like Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermes were definitively rejected.
Part of my question about methods has to do with when the church first became concerned with notions of canonicity. During the second century, the Apostolic Fathers like Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp were respected as authoritative even though they did not ultimately meet the criteria for inclusion in the canon. Prior to the point when canonicity was recognized as an issue for the church, it would seem to make more sense to talk about methods and principles in terms of authority rather than canonicity.
This leads me into the question of how much evidence the church really had when they started to think in terms of canonicity rather than authority. Most of the arguments for the traditional authorship of the gospels seem rely heavily on Irenaeus around 180 A.D. However, Irenaeus is the guy who makes the argument that there must be exactly four Gospels because there are “four zones of the world†and “four principal winds.†His reliance on an argument like this makes me wonder what kind of evidence he might have had for apostolicity that a historian might consider reliable or whether he would have been daunted by the lack of such evidence. A similar question is raised by Hebrews which seems to have made it into the canon without much evidence of apostolicity.
It seems to me that the principles and methods contain so much wiggle room that it would be hard to be sure of the extent to which they were applied as criteria and the extent to which they might simply have been post hoc justifications. Although we can discuss the concepts of principles and methods, we are not really in a position to apply them ourselves. In the end, it seems like we are mostly left simply adopting the results.
M Reichwein on 14 Jan 2008 at 5:46 pm #
I do not normally discuss the historical, cultural impact, or moral driven agendas behind the different denominations in the canonization of the Holy Scriptures; that is, I do not discuss them with an atheist. Therefore, after reading the posts from all of my most learned friends, here at http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/; I find myself becoming very interested in the topic.
It seems to my mind that the historicity of the multiplicity of writings considered for canonization is not in question; but rather the views express within a particular writing that either excludes such writings or warrants a hearing for its elevation as a revelation of God to mankind. Since no one in the room has argued that some of the Books already contained within the Bible are not valid and should be dismissed; I have a question. Since the Bible we have is a foundation for truth. Is there a comparative study of what all other cannon “hopefuls†claim to be truths from God, against what we already know to be true? That is, the Bible!
Thanks and God Bless
TAG-you’re it!
Could you please post it!!
Ps. Please get a new spam filter
vinny on 14 Jan 2008 at 6:30 pm #
Do you discuss them with agnostics?