Whaddya Mean, Mormons Are Not Christians? Shedding Light on a Hot Topic
Someone recently asked Richard Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention and an apparent supporter of Mitt Romney’s run for U.S. president, if he believed that Mormons were Christians. He answered, “No, I do not.â€
For some people—including many Mormons, of course—such a statement is an instance of religious bigotry. Who does he think he is, saying that Mormons are not Christians? Mormons certainly profess to be Christians; wouldn’t they know?
In almost every discussion I have with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this question comes up. If I’m trying to have a conversation about whether Jesus really did deliver the Sermon on the Mount to the Nephites almost verbatim as it appears in the Gospel of Matthew, I’m likely to hear, “You think we’re not Christians, don’t you?†I encounter many Mormons who bitterly resent anyone who denies that Mormons are Christians.
What I propose to do here is to take a fresh look at this question. I wish to bring some clarity and focus to the issue. My purpose is not to denigrate Mormons but to help them to understand what evangelicals typically mean when they assert that Mormonism is not Christian. I would also like to make some suggestions to my fellow evangelicals that may help us to present our point of view on this subject in a clearer way.
Christianity—The Two-Billion Member, Five-Ring Circus
From a comparative religions perspective, Christianity is the largest world religion, numbering a little over two billion members. (The next largest world religion, Islam, numbers perhaps as many as 1.5 billion adherents. Don’t be smug, friends—Islam is growing faster worldwide than Christianity.) Hereafter, when I use the term “Christianity†in this piece, I am referring to this mega-sized world religion.
Christianity includes an incredible diversity of belief and practice. (The numbers I use here are extremely rough approximations for sake of getting the big picture.) (1) About a billion people—about half of all Christianity—are found in the Catholic Church. (2) About a quarter of a billion people belong to one of the Orthodox or Eastern churches (which includes Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc., and also the Coptics and other groups). (3) Nearly a third of a billion people are associated with some conservative Protestant church or movement, either evangelical Protestant or Pentecostal. (4) Another quarter of a billion people belong to mainline, mostly moderate to liberal, Protestant denominations.
(5) This leaves roughly a quarter of a billion people whose forms of Christianity do not fit into any of the aforementioned categories. Within this none-of-the-above category is a wildly diverse assortment of religious communities. If each major type of Christianity represented in this fifth category were its own species, it would look like the Mos Eisley Cantina on Tatooine or an assemblage of delegates to a parliamentary meeting of the United Federation of Planets (take your pick!). It includes (deep breath) Adventism, British-Israelite groups, Christian Science, the Family, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Latter-day Saints, Messianic Judaism, Metropolitan Community Churches, New Thought, Oneness Pentecostalism, Rosicrucianism, the Sacred Name movement, Swedenborgianism, the Unification Church, Unitarian Universalism, The Way International, and many, many others.
Now, please note that I put Latter-day Saints, or Mormons, in this fifth catch-all category of “none of the above†forms of Christianity. I do not think anyone who is LDS would object. They certainly do not consider themselves Catholic or Eastern Orthodox; they do not consider themselves liberal, evangelical, or Pentecostal varieties of Protestantism. They might wish to create a sixth category and place themselves alone in it—and that’s fine—but my point is that we agree that Mormonism belongs to the larger world-religions classification of “Christianity†and that it does not belong to any of the major branches or religious traditions of Christianity as they are conventionally distinguished from one another.
What a lot of these religious groups have in common is a radical belief in restorationism. The largest and most influential types of Christianity that do not fit into the four major categories purport to represent the restoration of original, pristine, or full Christianity to the earth. This is clearly true of Adventism, Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Latter-day Saints, Messianic Judaism, Oneness Pentecostalism, the Sacred Name groups, The Way International, and quite a few others. Even within this category of restorationist Christianity, the specific religious groups differ markedly in their doctrines, rituals, and practices. Nevertheless, from a historical, sociological, and comparative religions approach, we are on safe ground in classifying the Latter-day Saints as a type of restorationist Christianity. On this point, see, for example, Grant Underwood, The Millenarian World of Early Mormonism (University of Illinois Press, 1999).
Let’s be clear. Mormonism does not belong in the world-religions classification of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Shinto, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, or Neo-Paganism. (Admittedly, some evangelicals have on occasion described Mormon theology as “pagan†or as teaching something more akin to Hinduism than to Christianity. Whatever legitimate point these critics might have been making, it remains an objective fact that Mormonism is neither pagan nor Hindu.) Mormonism arose from the Christian “tree†and retains obvious elements of Christianity as its religious orientation, not the least of which is its emphasis on Jesus Christ, both in its official name and in its literature and speech. From this perspective, in this context of world religions classification, the LDS Church belongs under the heading of Christianity, and more narrowly within that fifth “none of the above†category of types of Christianity that are neither Catholic, Orthodox, conservative Protestant, nor liberal Protestant.
If we use the term Christian to mean any and every adherent to any of these various types of Christianity, regardless of their beliefs or practices, then of course Mormons are Christians. (Note: anyone quoting only the last clause of the preceding sentence in order to misrepresent me will be guilty of intellectual malpractice!) I can’t imagine any evangelical disagreeing. This doesn’t tell us very much, though—and it tells us nothing about the validity or soundness of Mormonism as an expression of Christian faith.
According to Daniel Peterson and Stephen Ricks, “If anyone claims to see in Jesus of Nazareth a personage of unique and preeminent authority, that individual should be considered Christian†(Offenders for a Word: How Anti-Mormons Play Word Games to Attack the Latter-day Saints [Salt Lake City: Aspen Books, 1992], 185). By this definition, the vast majority of individuals in the world religion of Christianity are Christians. If this is all one means in affirming that Mormons are Christians, evangelicals should have no objection.
When Is a Christian Not a Christian?
If speakers used the term Christian uniformly to mean any and every person who affirms the centrality of Christ to their belief, there would be no confusion on the question of whether Mormons are Christians. In fact, though, the term does not always carry this sense.
In particular, evangelicals tend to affirm that someone is a “Christian†only if that person gives credible evidence of believing in Jesus Christ according to certain minimal standards of faithfulness to the biblical teaching. Now, please understand something right here: no evangelical has the competency to make an infallible judgment in this matter. Nevertheless, it is not unreasonable to maintain that some individuals, and some groups, are credibly viewed as Christian in this narrower sense while others are not.
Let me give some examples that ought to cool some of the heated emotions this issue tends to evoke. Suppose Mr. Smith over here is a Southern Baptist. He accepts the Southern Baptist doctrinal statement (the Baptist Faith and Message 2000) in its entirety. He attends church weekly. He tithes. In fact, he’s the pastor of the church. He attended a Baptist college and a Baptist seminary. Is he a Christian? Well, you would think so! Yet I know a man who fit the above description entirely (although I have changed his name) and who one day realized—while he was the pastor of a Baptist church!—that he was not himself a Christian. Those are his words, not mine. He went before his congregation, confessed to them that he had never personally trusted in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord, told them that he had just become a Christian, and offered to step down as their pastor. (The church reaffirmed him as their pastor.) By this man’s own testimony, he had not been a Christian all those years. He had an experience not unlike that of John Wesley, who went to America to convert the Indians and then realized that he needed to be converted himself. This is how evangelicals think when they talk about whether someone is a Christian. They are ultimately concerned about whether people actually know Christ as Savior.
Now imagine running into a man who also professes to be a Christian. He affirms emphatically that he has personally trusted in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. He claims to have been born again. However, he insists that only those people who have spoken in tongues are really saved. This man has started his own religious group organized around his idiosyncratic views. He has developed a course that all of his church’s members are expected to take that will teach them how to be saved and speak in tongues. (Yes, it costs money.) Is this fellow a Christian? Evangelicals would confidently answer No. Such a person is not really a Christian (in the narrower sense). People who follow him and accept his teachings cannot be considered Christians, either, as long as they subscribe to his views. This isn’t hypothetical, either; I am referring in this case to Victor Paul Wierwille, the late founder of The Way International. He sounded evangelical (more specifically Pentecostal), and a lot of people from evangelical churches bought into his claims, but The Way International is not, by evangelical standards, an authentically Christian church.
My third example is the bishop of a major Christian denomination, yet he denies every line of the Apostles Creed (which is part of that denomination’s official liturgy). He does not believe that Jesus Christ is a divine person, or that he was born of a virgin, or that he atoned for our sins on the cross, or that he rose from the grave. Is he a Christian? Well, in the broad, world-religions classification sense of the word, he is. After all, he claims to be one, and he is a member of a Christian denomination. He would affirm that he is a follower of Jesus. But really—is this man’s profession of Christian faith credible? Obviously not. I refer here to John Shelby Spong, the former bishop of the Episcopal Church in Newark, New Jersey. When evangelicals (including many in his own denomination!) assert that Spong is not a Christian, their meaning is not hard to grasp. They are taking the position that anyone who rejects the essential elements of the Christian faith is not a Christian, even though he may be a leader in a Christian denomination.
The point is that it makes perfectly good sense to use the term Christian in a narrower sense to mean someone who genuinely espouses the beliefs and values that are essential to the Christian faith. Now, admittedly, there is widespread disagreement about what those essentials are. I don’t deny for a moment that there exists considerable disagreement on that question. But the usage is perfectly understandable and legitimate. I think Mormons can even agree with evangelicals on this point to a considerable extent. For example, surely Mormons can agree that there is something odd about calling a person a Christian if he denies the resurrection of Jesus. We therefore ought to be able to agree that there are some essential truths and values that all Christians ought to accept and follow, even though we don’t agree entirely on what those essentials are.
No Recent Innovation
Mormons sometimes claim that the evangelical practice of using the term Christian in a narrower sense to refer to people accepting the essentials of the faith is a recent innovation, a novel polemical ploy introduced by “anti-Mormons†or “anti-cultists†to denigrate those with whom they disagree theologically. This is a historical claim, and it turns out to be mistaken. There is a long and venerable history in Christianity of denying the designation “Christian†to those who deviate from what are deemed essentials of the faith. Let me cite just two examples:
Justin Martyr (early to mid-second century church father): “Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. . . . For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians. . .†(Dialogue with Trypho 80).
John Calvin (sixteenth-century Protestant reformer and theologian): “This is the place to address those who, having nothing of Christ but the name and sign, would yet be called Christians. How dare they boast of this sacred name? None have intercourse with Christ but those who have acquired the true knowledge of him from the Gospel†(Institutes of the Christian Religion III).
Say what you will about these men, the point is made. Denying that professing believers are properly called Christians if they do not believe specific doctrinal essentials, if they do not really know Christ in truth, is not an innovation of twentieth-century anti-cultists. Christian leaders have been making this distinction since the second century.
“Mormons Never Say that Others Are Not Christiansâ€
Mormons often make such assertions as that “no LDS publication has ever denied the title Christian to anyone professing a belief in Christ.†Or, “LDS Christians have never made the accusation that orthodox Christians are not Christian, and we never will.†Perhaps this is correct in the narrow sense of actually stating explicitly that certain people who profess a belief in Christ are “not Christians.†However, LDS publications have at times spoken of some people professing belief in Christ as if they were not Christians. Consider the following statements:
“Hence, true and acceptable Christianity is found among the saints who have the fullness of the gospel, and a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom…. As the day of the great apostasy set in, the term Christian continued to be applied to the supposed followers of Christ, even though in reality they had departed from the true doctrines. Today those who purport to believe in Christ though they may not actually accept him as the Son of God, are called Christians.â€â€”Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), 132.
That McConkie did not consider members of “apostate Christendom†to be genuine Christians is evident from his reference to them as “so-called Christians.†They may be “called Christians,†but in McConkie’s usage, they were not really, because the true Christians are Mormons, as he clearly stated:
“Mormonism is Christianity; Christianity is Mormonism; they are one and the same, and they are not to be distinguished from each other in the minutest detail…. Mormons are true Christians; their worship is the pure, unadulterated Christianity authored by Christ and accepted by Peter, James, and John and all the ancient saints†(513, emphasis in original).
Now, Mormons will likely argue that McConkie does not speak for all Mormons. Of course he doesn’t. (Please, no comments or emails accusing me of making such a claim.) But they will have a difficult time making a plausible case for the claim that McConkie’s opinion is unacceptable in Mormonism. I have yet to see Mormons make the same sorts of charges against McConkie that they make against evangelicals who take a similarly dim view of Mormonism. I doubt I will ever see Mormons make such criticisms of McConkie.
In any case, the claim made by some Mormons that such opinions have never been expressed in an LDS publication appears to be rather undermined by the above example.
Please notice also that McConkie stated that some people “who purport to believe in Christ…may not actually accept him as the Son of God.†In his view, the orthodox Christ is not the real Christ at all. He stated elsewhere, “virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal, uncreated, immaterial, and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit†(269). McConkie was prepared to bite the bullet and to say that the Christ of orthodox Christianity was a myth. If Mormonism is true, McConkie surely had a legitimate point.
Or consider, from yet another angle, the following quotation from Peterson and Ricks. Referring to an evangelical effort denying that Mormons are Christians, Peterson and Ricks quote with approval a statement from Teddy Kollek, then mayor of Jerusalem, that the “attitude†of the evangelical opponents of Mormonism was “less than Christian†(Offenders for a Word, 4). How can an “attitude†be “less than Christian� Here “Christian†seems to mean something like “consistent with the values and teachings of Christianity†(according to some unspecified standard).
The fact is that even Mormons use the word “Christian†in more than one way. I’m perfectly comfortable with that. In one sense, many Mormons use the word “Christian†in a broad sense to refer to anyone and everyone who professes to follow Jesus and who wants to be called a Christian, irrespective of their beliefs or behavior. In another sense, at least some Mormons use the word “Christian†in a narrower sense, that of fidelity to what Mormons consider the values and beliefs of the true Christian church as defined by their own standards. All I have suggested is that non-Mormons be accorded the same privilege. I have repeatedly agreed that in the broad sense of the term, Mormons are Christians. I have then repeatedly suggested that it is not idiosyncratic for evangelicals and other orthodox Christians to use the term in the narrower sense and to import to that sense their own understanding of the standards by which fidelity to the core values and teachings of Christianity is to be judged.
Light, Not Heat
In closing, I’d like to offer some suggestions to my fellow evangelicals for ways to do a better job in handling this subject.
First, we ought to make the distinction between the broader and narrower use of the term Christian whenever we can. That is, when Mormons ask if we think they are Christians, we ought to respond by explaining that it depends on the definition of the word. We can then help them to understand what we mean, rather than simply make a statement that will anger or offend them. Admittedly, our view that Mormonism is not a sound, authentic form of Christianity will not be heard gladly by any Mormon. Nevertheless, I have found that Mormons take less offense, and sometimes take no offense at all, once they understand the distinction I have defended here.
Second, those evangelicals who have been saying that Mormons are “posing†or “pretending†to be Christians should stop using this inflammatory rhetoric. Most Mormons are not engaged in any sort of deliberate or intentional effort to pretend to be something they are not. They sincerely, though from our view mistakenly, think they are genuinely following Christ. Are there Mormons who are intentionally glossing over the differences between Mormonism and historic Christianity for polemical or public-relations gain? Yes, I think so. Is this true of most Mormons? I don’t think so.
Third, rather than state baldly that “Mormons are not Christians,†it would be more constructive to offer more qualified statements that communicate more clearly what we mean. For example, we could say, “Mormons are not theologically orthodox Christians,†or, “Mormons are not Christians in the traditional, historic understanding,†or, “Mormonism is not a sound, authentic form of Christianity.â€
Fourth, where possible it would be advantageous if we were to make disarming statements that demonstrate that our disapproval of Mormonism is not peculiar to them. For example, a Presbyterian could say, “No, I don’t consider Mormons to be authentic Christians, but then, I have the same opinion of a good number of my fellow Presbyterians.†Such statements can be both disarming and provocative, allowing us to engage our Mormon friends in a constructive discussion of what really is essential to biblical Christian faith.
In interreligious discussions, it is vital that we understand each other (cf. Prov. 18:13). When evangelicals say that Mormons are not Christians, they simply mean that Mormons do not adhere to the essentials of the Christian faith as evangelicals understand them. When Mormons say that they are Christians, they simply mean that they disagree with the evangelical criteria for what constitutes acceptable, authentic, genuine Christian faith. Evangelicals are not necessarily being mean-spirited when they say that Mormons are not Christians (although some evangelicals may in fact be mean-spirited in the way they say it). Mormons are not necessarily being duplicitous when they claim to be Christians (although some Mormons may in fact be duplicitous in the way they present this claim). Eliminating these generally unjustified, prejudicial misunderstandings of what each other is saying would help clear the air and allow meaningful, constructive discussion of our differences to go forward. It’s a step.
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- In What Sense Are Jesus and the Father One? Part III: One in Purpose? C: John 17:21-23

shane magee on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:32 am #
very informative article rob. thanks for taking the time with this. the term ‘christian’ is so very broad that it almost always needs defining in discussion with anyone. mixing it up with luke’s “followers of the way” or even the broader “disciple” and other terms (used much more frequently in scripture than “christian”) can be a provocative and useful conversation starter as well.
Vitali Zagorodnov on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:48 am #
Wow, you must have spent a lot of time on this. Very comprehensive. Answered all my questions.
Josh Gelatt on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:59 am #
Excellent article. One point: why do we care how the Religion departments define Christianity? Since when did the “history of religion” vein of science become the group which gets to make the rules and categorize various faiths?
The issue isn’t whether Mormons, or Religion professors, think of Mormonism as being a subset of Christianity. The greater issue is whether such a claim is internally consistent within Christianity itself.
When Machen wrote his (still) valuable book called “Christianity and Liberalism”, he was under much pressure by his publisher to title it “Fundamentalism and Liberalism” (or was it “Conservatism and Liberalism”….I can’t remember). He forcefully declined, maintaining that Liberalism was not Christianity in the true sense of the term. By departing from the faith “once for all delivered”, they were departing from the Christianity and he was calling them to intellectual honesty (thus, his refusal to title the book in such a way as to admit different ‘factions’ of Christianity).
We do ourselves (nor the Mormons) no favors when we dance around the word “Christian”. I have a friend in the B’hai faith that also likes to call himself a “Christian”. I have several universalist-unitarian friends who likewise use the term Christian. We are dear, life-long friends. I do not “disarm” them by saying things like “well, in a broad sense of the term you are indeed a Christian, but not the narrow sense”. Instead, I firmly maintain that they are certainly not Christians in any legitimate sense of the term.
If we play by the rules and definitions of an unbelieving world, they will always win the game. I don’t define Mormonism, but certainly Christians have the right to define Christianity.
Paul Owen on 12 Dec 2007 at 9:09 am #
Rob,
This is very nicely done. A great article, that really helps the discussion. Thank you for the time you put into this!
Rob Bowman on 12 Dec 2007 at 9:55 am #
Paul,
Thanks for the encouragement. It means a lot to me, especially after we “butted heads” earlier.
Rob Bowman on 12 Dec 2007 at 10:04 am #
Josh,
I understand your point of view. However, it isn’t just unbelieving professors of religion who sometimes use the term “Christian” to refer to anyone who professes to follow Christ. Most words have more than one meaning, and this is an example of that phenomenon.
I will say that there are some people who claim to be Christians who really are not, even in the broad sense of the term. Your example of the Baha’is is a case in point. Baha’i views Jesus as one of a series of prophets, not even the last or greatest of the prophets, and historically and theologically is a sect originating from Islam. I have also had Baha’is tell me that one can be a Christian and a Baha’i at the same time, but this is simply false, on any legitimate definition of the word “Christian.”
Finally, I emphatically agree with you that Christians have the right, and the responsibility, to define what they mean by Christian. (Machen is one of my heroes, too.) Thus, we have every right to say that a particular heresy is not genuinely or truly Christian. There are ways to say this without being unnecessarily inflammatory or confusing. That’s the thrust of my post.
kolabok21 on 12 Dec 2007 at 11:51 am #
Very informative article, I appreciate the concerted effort to explore this often multifaceted topic.
I wonder why we have departed from the originality of the Apostolic Church Fathers.
In their time it was the simple practice of teaching the Didache & preaching the kerygma.
Where have turned too! The numbers you expanded upon, some 2 Billion Christians world wide with the various breaks along traditional roots is a wake up called for defining the term Christian in its deepest meaning.
You seem to have softly approached the subject with the greatest care, yet you leave it open for greater discussion.
Is this a product of our culture and the quintessential norm in our 21st century mindest?
Is it to bring a tolerant view into an ever increasing lack of truth in definition?
Do we have to redefine what the essentials and non-essentials are before we decide who meets the following criteria to being called a Christian?
IMO left to it’s (the word Christian) own device, I firmly would hold to the word REMANT. That is what will be the end result of the returning King for his people.
It almost seems circular in brief redemptive history, meaning it is running its course and will return to its simplest form.
Matthew 18:3
Chris Brady on 12 Dec 2007 at 12:26 pm #
While I appreciate your thoughtful ideas on this subject, I think that you are creating a bit of revisionist history in the process.
First of all, it must be remembered that Mormonism is related to and sprang directly from Protestantism in many of the same ways that Lutheranism, Calvinism, Evangelicalism, etc. are related to the Catholic church. This is very different than the example of the Baha’i faith.
Also, this argument that Mormons aren’t Christians was created by Evangelicals within the last 40 years to be specifically used in a contemptible manner towards doctrine they disagree with. Commonly the pejorative word “cult” is thrown into these same discussions. In my opinion, it usually is either mean spirited at worst, or thoughtless at best. Frankly, I believe no matter how you look at it, it is an un-Christlike argument.
Mormons believe in the Bible just as thoroughly and strongly as any Evangelical Christian does, even though they do interpret it differently. Yes, Mormons do disagree with the Catholic and Protestant concept of the Trinity.
In a nutshell, Mormons don’t believe that Jesus prayed to himself throughout the New Testament.
The Catholic Church itself was split on this interpretation of scripture until Constantine imposed his opinion with the weight of a Roman Emperor. The Nycene Creed, though accepted tradition in most of Christianity, is not scripture. Most Christians aren’t even aware how this non-biblical history influences their faith.
However, Mormons do emphatically agree with Evangelicals, and most other Christians, in regards to the divinity and mission of Jesus as the only begotten Savior of all mankind.
The argument that Christians have the right to define the term “Christian” is totally circular and devoid of logic. Who’s interpretation of Christian has the right to define? It’s almost silly.
Unless you also state that Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, etc. all worship different Christs, the claim that Mormons worship a different Jesus and a different God is simply ridiculous to me. We all read the same Bible which depicts one person. This is clearly a matter of interpreting the same Christ differently from the the same scriptures.
McConkie, like most Mormons, does believe that the Mormon interpretation of the Bible is true. I assume every other differing Christian sect believes the same, otherwise why would they even exist?
I must also state that many Mormons are uncomfortable with some of McConkie’s writings. His “Mormon Doctrine” is not Mormon Doctrine. The book is not an official church publication and he got in a little hot water over both the title and the strong dogmatic positions he took on opinions which are not doctrinal.
Nevertheless, it’s my opinion that he was stating his faith in the truthfulness of what he believed. I don’t think he was encouraging Mormons to point fingers at others and say, “You’re not a real Christian like I am, and you worship a different Jesus than I do.” Unfortunately, I have been the recipient of this un-Christian-like message from others outside my faith.
Doug Yancey on 12 Dec 2007 at 12:33 pm #
Well said, Rob. As a devout Mormon and an apologist for my faith, I have had many ‘discussions’ with Evangelicals over this issue. I agree with most of what yoy write.
—Doug Yancey
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 1:01 pm #
Fantastic article Rob! Really quite well-done and thorough.
———–
Chris Brady: Commonly the pejorative word “cult†is thrown into these same discussions. In my opinion, it usually is either mean spirited at worst, or thoughtless at best.
When I am among intellectually honest Christians, I use the word “cult” to describe Mormonism. If I’m in a discussion with a Mormon, I do not use the word “cult” as it is unhelpful in assisting them on the path towards becoming a Christian.
Although the word “cult” is not politically correct or Christianly correct, it is an accurate descriptor for the Mormon faith, no matter how much you dislike it.
Similarly, the declaration that Mormons are not Christians is also accurate, even though you may not like it either.
The point is not to be inflammatory and offensive, the point is to be precise in one’s terms and definitions.
Josh on 12 Dec 2007 at 1:15 pm #
Chris,
I appreciate your perspective on this issue; it is always helpful and more interesting to hear from those whose opinion differ from the original author of the article. I agree with you on much of what you are saying, but your equivocation that “Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists etc†worship different Christ’s†is simply false.
Historically the defining characteristics of Christianity have been Christ’s divinity and his equality with God the Father. This is true today in all those different “denominations†you mentioned and has been in Christian thought long before Nicene. If you want to talk about the merits/history of the council of Nicene and its biblical roots that’s one thing, but it seems dishonest to compare Baptists and Catholic beliefs on the trinity when they are clearly the same in regard to the divinity of Jesus.
Aaron Ronetski on 12 Dec 2007 at 1:22 pm #
Rob,
How do you suppose the apostle Paul would have dealt with Mormonism? Is it possible that what you have outlined here has been shaped more by our culture than Scripture? Interesting discussion.
CH on 12 Dec 2007 at 1:27 pm #
Chris,
I’m sure the fact that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and every other so called prophet, taught things clearly in conflict with Scripture, not to mention the problems with the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants, has nothing to do with Mormonism being considered a “cult.”
I find it interesting that the ones who most pronouncely state that Mormonism is a cult are the ones who were once members. Hmm…I wonder why that is?
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 1:35 pm #
Rob:
I, too, appreciate the effort you took to undertake addressing this rather touchy subject.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Chris Brady above, who was spot-on in calling you on your hypocrisy, in that you have ultimately resorted to the same behavior you are attempting to correct.
For instance, in your third point you had an excellent start when you stated “Third, rather than state baldly that “Mormons are not Christians,†it would be more constructive to offer more qualified statements that communicate more clearly what we mean. For example, we could say, “Mormons are not theologically orthodox Christians,†or, “Mormons are not Christians in the traditional, historic understanding,—, but then undermined your own point when you stated “or, “Mormonism is not a sound, authentic form of Christianity.—
Mormonism is not a “sound, authentic form of Christianity” to WHOM? Who gave Evangelical Christians the authority to determine what is, and isn’t, a “sound, authentic form of Christianity”?
Perhaps you would have been wiser to maintain the course you were pursuing, which was much more intellectually honest, and simply define it as a “sound, authentic form of Evangelical (or “traditional”) Christianity.”
If you really want to make a resounding statement in the arena of ecumenical understanding or religious tolerance, Rob, perhaps the first step might be to maintain a bit more consistency in your statements.
Just a thought.
Chris Brady on 12 Dec 2007 at 1:40 pm #
Rob, obviously, I strongly disagree with you.
By Webster’s, Oxford’s or any other non-predjudiced dictionary’s definition of Christian, Mormons fit the bill exactly.
You can claim Mormons aren’t Christian all you want, but other than within the parameters your own biased opinion, you’d be flat out wrong.
I suppose by your “definition” of the word “nonsense”, the sky could be the color “nonsense” too. I guess that just means we speak different languages. I speak the English language, by the way.
As for describing Mormonism as a “cult,” may I ask you in what way is the LDS Church more “cultish” than the original church which Christ established during his ministry on the Earth?
And Josh — my point was that Baptists, Catholics, etc. AND Mormons DO worship the same Jesus from the same Bible. I brought up the Nycene Council to point out that the current concept of the Trinity was not always so universal… catholic, if you will.
And CH — your scriptural conflict is my differing interpretation.
What you’re talking about parallels a lot of the conflict of scriptural interpretations that are described in the New Testament.
It also parallels the creation of nearly every sect in Christiandom.
Again, I would like to ask: in what way is the LDS Church more “cultish” than the original church which Christ established during his ministry on the Earth?
Daniel Eaton on 12 Dec 2007 at 1:53 pm #
I can’t believe the Rob Bowman I know would actually put “Mormons are Christians” in *any* context that could be misquoted! LOL This is a great piece and very needed. Mitt Romney is now campaigning on his similarities and differences with Mike Huckabee. The truth about what those differences are is something that is important to understand if people are going to make an informed decision as to whether or not someone’s beliefs matter. With Huckabee’s comment of “Don’t Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?†expected to hit the Sunday’s New York Times Magazine, I imagine the tempest over this is only going to increase. Hopefully your article can be used to stem some of the madness that is surely to follow.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 1:56 pm #
Josh wrote: “Historically the defining characteristics of Christianity have been Christ’s divinity and his equality with God the Father.”
And here is an excellent example of the problem inherent in this discussion… “History” is not 100% congruent with Biblical truth. For instance, the idea of Christ’s “equality” with God is entirely unBiblical. That idea evolved later. So it begs the question, “If we are using the Bible as the litmus test of ‘Christianity,’ why are we attempting to ’stack the deck’ by using non-canonical standards”?
The answer is jarringly simple. To simply allow one to denounce one religion in favor of another. Perhaps the REAL test of “intellectual honesty” is our willingness to see the bias in our own position.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:00 pm #
Daniel Eaton said “With Huckabee’s comment of “Don’t Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?†expected to hit the Sunday’s New York Times Magazine, I imagine the tempest over this is only going to increase.”
I agree. And it personally is quite sad to see Mr. Huckabee stoop to that level of discourse. I had rather hoped that he would exhibit more integrity than to resort to stale, warmed over anti-Mormon rhetoric.
Josh Gelatt on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:05 pm #
Actually, the logic works against your point. If seems as if you are claiming that because their exists some differences between the major (orthodox) Christian groups (Catholic, Protestant, etc), there are no universals or commonality between them.
You again seem to maintain that since such differences exist, no group has the right to determine the definition of “Christianity”.
What is the end result of this logic? That words have meaning only to the particular person using them.
In that case, I declare myself a “Mormon” (defined as someone who agrees with all the core Evangelical tenants and who completely disagrees with the mormon leaders in Salt Lake City).
No…wait…..I want to be Islamic (defined as a rejecting of the belief in Allah and belief that Jesus is indeed a member of the Trinity).
Ohh….I just changed my mind….I want to be am atheist (defined as someone who actually believes in God).
Actually, I prefer to let Mormons, Atheists, and Muslims define themselves…and I still reserve the right to (along with my brothers and sisters across the denominational spectrum) define what it means to be Christian.
Josh on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:15 pm #
Chris,
Thanks for the reply. I understood what you were saying but I still think you have errored in your statement that Protestants worship the same Jesus as the Mormons do. They may use the same exact words, but the meaning behind those words is clearly distinct and different.
I accept the possibility that Protestants and every other mainline part of Christendom have been wrong in the last 2000 years regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. But for honesties sake you cannot possibly say that Mormons worship the same Jesus as they do. The same words do not equate to equality, rather, it must be the thoughts expressed behind those words that achieves an equality of belief. And the thoughts being expressed behind the Mormon doctrine of the deity of Christ are clearly different from the “traditional†forms of Christianity.
I don’t have a problem respectfully disagreeing with you, but let’s just be honest that the Mormon doctrines regarding Christ’s deity are not compatible with the “traditional†doctrines found throughout the vast majority of Christendom.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:17 pm #
Josh wrote: “Actually, I prefer to let Mormons, Atheists, and Muslims define themselves…and I still reserve the right to (along with my brothers and sisters across the denominational spectrum) define what it means to be Christian.”
Of course, this only works if there were only one flavor of “Christianity.” There isn’t. There are Calvinists and Arminianism proponents. There are Lordship believers, and No-Lordship believers. Heavens, let’s not even broach Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, etc.! Which group has the inherent RIGHT *NOT* to define their particular FLAVOR of Christianity, but according to you, Christianity as a WHOLE?
That is the bottom line here that so many are missing. No one group among the groups that Rob outlined have any right to define what Christianity as a WHOLE believes OTHER than to profess a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, as we have previously noted. Period. Define your SLICE of Christianity however you like. Baptism necessary? Great. Not necessary? Also Great. Knock yourself out. Just don’t assume the arrogance and deceit of deciding that YOUR definition is the “real” one for everyone.
Daniel Eaton on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:20 pm #
@Darryl Barksdale: It is hard to claim that they *aren’t* brothers when the church is full of “Brother Tom” and “Brother Sam” that *also* have the same spiritual father and mother. As with this article on the meanings of “Christian” or, as is mentioned earlier, the meanings of “cult”, it depends on what you mean by “brother”. If someone in my congregation or stake is my “brother” and can be addressed as “Brother Darryl” because we share a spiritual parent (or parents), how is it *not* correct for Christ to call *any* of his spiritual siblings “brother”? Besides, don’t LDS Apostles, such as John A. Widtsoe and Bruce R. McConkie, and President/Prophet Spencer W. Kimball refer to Christ as Lucifer’s “elder brother”? Do I need to provide references? Far from losing his integrity, Huckabee is only shining a light on what makes the Mormon church unique and, in its eyes, necessary. If there *were* no differences, there would be no need for an LDS restoration, would there?
Kaffinator on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:22 pm #
I was Mormon for twenty years. I am now saved by grace through faith in Christ.
I don’t think there is anything to be gained by calling it a “cult” since there’s no agreed-upon definition of the term “cult”. “Are Mormons Christian” is also an unhelpful question. It depends upon a common definition of “Christian” which does not exist. It also assumes that all who carries the label “Mormon” are uniform in belief.
Here are some better framing questions, in my opinion.
Will a person who attends a Mormon Church hear about the good news of salvation extended by faith, and not through works, so that any man might boast?
Does the Mormon Church practice trinitarian baptism? Does it accept trinitarian baptisms performed by other churches?
Do the teachings of the Mormon Church conform to the teachings of Christ and His apostles as received by the church through the ages?
The answer in each case can be clearly, and without bias, shown to be “no”. And this tells us everything we need to know.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:22 pm #
Josh said; “Thanks for the reply. I understood what you were saying but I still think you have errored in your statement that Protestants worship the same Jesus as the Mormons do. They may use the same exact words, but the meaning behind those words is clearly distinct and different.”
And quite honestly, this is simply more logical fallacy. There is only one Jesus Christ. Not 20,000+. This is simply a thinly-veiled semantical game to attempt to paint any other point of view with the dark hues of negativism.
The FACT is that there was only one Jesus Christ. How we UNDERSTAND who He was… and is… may differ. For instance, you cling to the creeds and “tradition” for your definition. Great. We are New Testament Christians, and embrace the Biblical Jesus. That’s our right as well.
The words you use to describe Jesus according to the extra-Biblical Nicean formula may certainly well be different from what we believe the Bible uses to describe Him… but it’s still one Only Begotten Son of Almighty God that we are discussing… it’s just how we see Him that differs.
Josh on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:26 pm #
Darryl,
Do you mean to tell me that the council of Nicene is where the first notion of Christ’s deity came up? To say that it is “entirely unbiblical†is simply devoid of honest inquiry. I accept the notion that there are texts which appear to conflict with the idea of Jesus’ equality with God the Father, but there are clearly a multiplicity of texts that equate Jesus divinity to that of the Father.
I fail to see how you can make such sweeping statements about the deity of Christ as “entirely unbiblical†and then accuse other people of formulating conclusions based on their biases. I am willing to accept conflicts in the text, but if you aren’t even willing to acknowledge their existence how can we even entertain a discussion about them?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:27 pm #
Mormons are Mormons. Christians are Christians. What’s wrong with keeping the two separate?
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:27 pm #
Daniel said; “It is hard to claim that they *aren’t* brothers when the church is full of “Brother Tom†and “Brother Sam†that *also* have the same spiritual father and mother.”
You misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I was not arguing the point that we are all spirit children of God. I was pointing out that instead of focusing on political issues and platforms and ideas, Mike Huckabee is stooping to slinging stale and yellow-journalistic anti-Mormon chestnuts such as attempting to portray Christ as being “related” or equal in some way to Satan.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:29 pm #
Josh said “I fail to see how you can make such sweeping statements about the deity of Christ as “entirely unbiblical†and then accuse other people of formulating conclusions based on their biases.”
First of all, I wasn’t claiming that Christ’s divinity was unBiblical. I said that the notion of Christ’s equality with the Father was unBiblical.
This is a straw man.
C Michael Patton on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:35 pm #
Folks, please keep the comments gracious and constructive toward the subject and primarily directed to the author of this blog. You can interact with one another, but don’t turn this into a discussion that disassociates from the main subject.
For those who refuse to do this, we will mark all your comments as spam. No matter what YOUR definition of spam is, mine is all that matters
Chris Brady on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:43 pm #
Kaffinator,
I understand that you have different beliefs than me, and your criterion makes absolute sense if your merely contrasting your beliefs with mine.
But, your criterion merely says that you differ in your interpretation of the Bible from me.
And I completely disagree that the answer in each case can be clearly, and without bias, shown to be “noâ€.
In your first question, I would answer a very complex, but emphatic yes, followed by a way too long discussion on the nature of faith.
Your second question seems rather “extra biblical” to me, so no.
Your third question I would argue yes, but I also understand that you would differ with me along with every other Christian sect than your own.
Aaron Ronetski on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:44 pm #
Any religious group claiming to be Christian that denies the Trinity is a “cult”. I think this is a nice working definition…
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:55 pm #
Respectfully, for all the Mormons on this thread, what evidence and what sound argumentation would you need to change your hearts and minds to becoming a Christian?
Can I assume that you’ve heard of the Tanners? Sandra Tanner? Solid Mormon lineage and they became ex-Mormon.
Along the same lines as their conversion and other ex-Mormons, what *substance* do you require in a Christian presentation that would cause you to to stop and wonder whether Mormonism is as true as you’d like to think it is? What would cause a paradigm and world-view shift for you?
I ask this seriously and respectfully.
Chris Brady on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:58 pm #
Aaron and Josh,
The doctrine of the Trinity is merely an interpretation of the Bible, it is not actually contained in the Bible. The word “Trinity” never ever appears even once in the Bible.
Mormons absolutely do believe in the divinity of Christ, but when we read about the many times in the Bible that Christ prayed to his Father, we believe that he really was praying to his Father and not to himself.
I understand that you interpret this differently, but we nevertheless worship the same Christ in the same Bible, therefore by any fair definition, Mormons are Christians.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 2:59 pm #
Truth Unites… and Divides wrote “Mormons are Mormons. Christians are Christians. What’s wrong with keeping the two separate?”
That’s a bit like saying “Pontiacs are Pontiacs, and cars are cars.”
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:02 pm #
Aaron writes: “Any religious group claiming to be Christian that denies the Trinity is a “cultâ€. I think this is a nice working definition…”
I’m assuming then that you think that Jesus Christ Himself as well as the apostles were cultists… Neither Christ nor the apostles ever taught the “homoousion” Trinitarian concept, which wasn’t invented until 325AD.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:08 pm #
Truth Unites… and Divides writes “I ask this seriously and respectfully.”
I have no doubt you are serious, although I do have some doubts about the “respectfully” part.
Your assumption is your downfall here. You assume that everyone who accepts the extra-Biblical doctrines of much of modern Evangelical Christianity is “Christian” and “saved” and those who actually embrace God’s Word as it appears in the Bible are not. Such is simply not factually the case. Nor does that definition have a foundation in Biblical truth.
Mormons ARE Christians. They simply aren’t Evangelical or “traditional” Christian, which is the point that Rob was trying to make. You don’t get to define who is, and isn’t a Christian. You don’t even get to define who is, and isn’t YOUR kind of “Christian.” Those of YOUR Christianity AS A GROUP get to define YOUR flavor of Christianity… but you definitely do NOT get to define Christianity as a whole.
Daniel Eaton on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:12 pm #
Darryl said, “Mike Huckabee is stooping to slinging stale and yellow-journalistic anti-Mormon chestnuts such as attempting to portray Christ as being “related†or equal in some way to Satan.”
Mitt may very well get my vote this year. But Huckabee isn’t attacking Mormonism with some mud-slinging yellow journalism. Mitt has just started an ad where he compares and contrasts himself and his beliefs an positions with that of Mike Muckabee (see http://mitt-tv.mittromney.com/?showid=718462). It is seen by many to be his first attack ad. If Mitt didn’t want the conversation going there, he should not have made it an issue.
The truth is that there are a lot of differences in what Baptists and Mormons teach. If we are going to say, “Vote for me because I’m different from Mike Huckabee”, then the differences need to be addressed. If it is going to be an issue, it is important that people understand what those differences are. Rob’s piece does the conversation a lot of good in that he points out that there are a lot of words that both Baptists and LDS use that are not necessarily understood the same. “Christian”, “cult”, “brother”, “trinity”, “heavenly father”, “saved by grace” and so forth quickly come to mind. Whether it is a good thing or not, Mitt’s religion is an issue. His speech on “Faith in America” was a great one. Identifying the belief differences isn’t “yellow journalism”. It is reporting the facts.
It is far too easy to allege motives for pointing out the facts as a reason why they should be ignored. Intellectual honesty requires us to get past the alleged motives or genetic fallacies. As Christians, to use the term in the broadest sense possible, we believe in The Truth. We should stand for The Truth. If you believe “brother” means something different than what I do, that is fair to bring it up. But let’s not challenge someone’s alleged motives for saying something when they possibly have a different definition of “brother” than what you use. That is the whole concept behind Rob’s blog post. If we are going to converse, we need to be on the same page with what we think a word means.
Chris Brady on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:13 pm #
Truth Unites… and Divides,
Mormons are Christian.
Look “Christian” up in the dictionary and tell me how it doesn’t apply to Mormons.
As for the Tanners, they’re career haters. I have no problem with anybody switching religions and believing what they choose. I don’t know what their personal issues are, but I find their rabid and incessant negativity the antithesis of Christlike behavior.
I’m really not trying convince anyone here what’s true and what’s not.
I’m just hoping to spread some understanding to engender a bit more kindness and respect.
And I just think it’s disrespectful and disingenuous to label people according to agendas, even if it’s a well meaning religious agenda.
Aaron Ronetski on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:15 pm #
Darryl,
You know what happens when you “assume”? Your statement is simply a reflection of your errors.
Chris,
We don’t worship the same Christ. The Christ I worship is equal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Christians don’t claim that Jesus prayed to Himself. That is ridiculous and indicatave of your incorrect understanding of Christian doctrine. It’s the same mistake JWs make, and it’s a straw man.
I’m not afraid to say it, for God’s glory and the sake of your never dying souls. You’re not Christians, you’re lost. I won’t pamper you on that front…
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:17 pm #
“Mormons ARE Christians. They simply aren’t Evangelical or “traditional†Christian, which is the point that Rob was trying to make. You don’t get to define who is, and isn’t a Christian. You don’t even get to define who is, and isn’t YOUR kind of “Christian.†Those of YOUR Christianity AS A GROUP get to define YOUR flavor of Christianity… but you definitely do NOT get to define Christianity as a whole.” (Darryl Barksdale)
“I encounter many Mormons who bitterly resent anyone who denies that Mormons are Christians.” (Rob Bowman)
I respectfully deny that Mormons are Christians. Darryl, do you bitterly resent me, Aaron Ronetski, and anyone else who make that same denial?
Aaron Ronetski on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:18 pm #
typo correction, should have been “indicative”. Sorry.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:20 pm #
Daniel wrote: “Intellectual honesty requires us to get past the alleged motives or genetic fallacies.”
The only problem here is that you seem to be saying “IGNORE that straw man behind the curtain!”
True intellectual honesty requires us to not only SEE the straw man behind the curtain, but to identify it as such and remove it from the table of honest discourse.
You said “As Christians, to use the term in the broadest sense possible, we believe in The Truth.”
You were right on when you pointed out that we have differences in the way “words” are defined, or what they mean. Your statement above is an excellent example. As is Rob’s exploration of the word “Christian.”
You claim to stand for “The Truth,” whatever that is. You claim, for instance, that the Bible is the only true, inerrant Word of God. It, and it alone, to you, contains The Truth. And yet you reject much of its’ contents for the extra-Biblical creeds, christologies, theologies, pronouncements, dogmas, etc. of “traditional” Christianity. Suddenly THEY are The Truth. Nearly all are incompatible with The Truth of the Bible. Yet you not only claim to accept both… and dismiss it as a matter of “faith” to do so… but then you want to impose that contradiction on the rest of the entirety of Christianity, implying that if they don’t accept your version of The Truth, they aren’t Christians.
Can you hardly complain when someone objectively looks at this contradiction and says, “WHAT?!”
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:22 pm #
Darryl, and other Mormons,
Can you thoughtfully respond to my post #32?
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:26 pm #
Truth Unites.. and Divides said “I respectfully deny that Mormons are Christians. Darryl, do you bitterly resent me, Aaron Ronetski, and anyone else who make that same denial?”
Not at all.
I do believe that in making that pronouncement your actions are incongruent with Biblical Truth and are logically fatally flawed, however.
I believe that your pronouncement is diametrically opposed to everything Christ taught, and that your attitude and approach of negativity, condemnation and exclusionism is not at all what real Christianity as taught by Christ and the apostles entails.
I find that your pronouncement lacks credibility as it is not based on sound logic and reason, nor is it based on any demonstrable knowledge of how Christ and the apostles defined “Christianity.”
That’s all.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:29 pm #
Aaron said: “You know what happens when you “assumeâ€? Your statement is simply a reflection of your errors.”
Please elaborate. And show all work.
Darryl Barksdale on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:38 pm #
Truth Unites… and Divides writes “Can you thoughtfully respond to my post #32?”
I actually already did.
But for the sake of argument, let’s take another look.
You said, “Respectfully, for all the Mormons on this thread, what evidence and what sound argumentation would you need to change your hearts and minds to becoming a Christian?”
Respectfully, you have nothing of value to offer me. I already know that Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten Son of Almighty God. He is my Savior and Redeemer. It is in Him, and Him alone that I place my faith, and my trust for salvation. He was crucified, died for my sins, and rose again the third day. He is the second member of the Godhead, and is the Mediator between God and man. He is the Great I AM. I know that nothing I can do can earn my way to heaven. He has paid the price for me, on conditions of obedience (Heb 5:9). I accept His Word as inspired scripture, and believe it wholeheartedly.
You, on the other hand, seem to reject the most basic tenets of the Bible in favor of the post-Biblical creeds. You offer no unity in the faith, no unity in doctrine, and no unity in love. You provide no foundation of apostles and prophets as Christ said was necessary for His Church UNTIL it came to a unity of the faith. You denounce core doctrines of the Bible, replacing them with the political machinations of a pagan emporer… and later of a Reformer who thought that even Christ was more ignorant than he, and who made such a mess out of Christianity that he lamented that he ever began to teach.
What, pray tell, do you have to offer me that I don’t already have?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:38 pm #
Dear Darryl, refuting Mormonism as a false teaching is Biblical and ultimately Christ-Glorifying.
Your post of #44 is simply loud rhetoric.
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. (Titus 1:9)
Rob Bowman and his series of posts are carefully and lovingly refuting the unsound doctrine of Mormonism to the Glory of God.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:47 pm #
What, pray tell, do you have to offer me that I don’t already have?
A repudiation of the false doctrines of Mormonism? To become a Christian? The Trinity?
There’s a lot that you don’t have as a die-hard Mormon. Too much to list, really.
Daniel Eaton on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:48 pm #
Darryl said, “You claim to stand for “The Truth,†whatever that is. You claim, for instance, that the Bible is the only true, inerrant Word of God. It, and it alone, to you, contains The Truth. And yet you reject much of its’ contents for the extra-Biblical creeds, christologies, theologies, pronouncements, dogmas, etc. of “traditional†Christianity. Suddenly THEY are The Truth. Nearly all are incompatible with The Truth of the Bible. ”
With all due respect, Darryl, you don’t know me, don’t know what I believe, and don’t know why I believe it. This is the very same straw-man type argument that you seem to so easily see in others. As per Michael’s wishes 20 replies ago, I have limited my comments to those that relate to this discussion about differences and how definitions can help in their discourse. If you want to get into what I believe and why, we can, but this isn’t the place. This *topic* may be appropriate because your assertion is based upon your definition of these terms, but the layout of blog comments isn’t conducive to in-depth conversations such as this. Why don’t we take any in-depth discussions that this seems to be leading to over to the Reclaiming The Mind forum. I created a topic for it at http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/forum/showthread.php?p=2726. If this is stepping over the bounds and pretending to be an admin or something, I apologize. I’m just trying to follow Michael’s directive that we leave these comments for discussions with Rob about his specific post.
Daniel
Aaron Ronetski on 12 Dec 2007 at 3:48 pm #
Darryl,
I’m not going to provide you with an apologetic treatise on the Trinity. The onus is on you, showing up on a Christian web site, to defend your position. It’s easy to claim that the Trinity was “invented”, a lot harder to justify such an assertion though. God the Holy Spirit guides His church into all the truth, so it is hogwash to claim that the ecumenical councils were essentially “doctrine inventors”.
Kaffinator on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:01 pm #
Hi Chris, thanks for responding. I will restate my questions here, and why I think the answer is objectively, definitively no.
1. Will a person who attends a Mormon Church hear about the good news of salvation extended by faith, and not through works, so that any man might boast?
I never heard that message even one time in twenty years in the Mormon faith between 1970 and 1990. I heard about Joseph Smith, I heard about Nephites, I learned that Jesus was crucified to allow me to work my way into heaven, but when it came time to “bear a testimony” I always heard (and was taught to recite): “I know the church is true. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.”
Are you saying things are different now, and that if I show up at an LDS church this Sunday, I am going to be taught to have faith in Christ rather than in the LDS church and its reigning prophet? Nothing I have read or seen suggests that any such change has taken place. Sorry, the answer is still “no”.
2. Does the Mormon Church practice trinitarian baptism? Does it accept trinitarian baptisms performed by other churches?
In other words, you agree with me that the answer is “no”. I would add, Mormons are free to stand alone in their baptism, but they can’t simultaneously argue for inclusion with the larger body of Christianity while retaining such a policy.
3. Do the teachings of the Mormon Church conform to the teachings of Christ and His apostles as received by the church through the ages?
“As received by the church through the ages” was a very deliberate part of my question. If you argue that the LDS church conforms in this way then you go against God himself who claimed through Joseph Smith that the churches of his day were apostate and their creeds abominable.
Josh on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:03 pm #
Darryl,
I assumed that you would understand when I used the word “deity†(relating to Christ) I was referring to the “traditional Christian†perspective of the term based upon all my previous posts. Forgive me for that assumption, I will try and be clearer in talking with you in the future.
The problem remains that you haven’t even acknowledged that those texts claiming that Jesus was equal with Father (in His deity) exist within the Bible. And if you haven’t acknowledged those texts, how can discussion about the nature and deity (again His equality with the Father in his divinity) of Jesus even begin?
Josh on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:03 pm #
Chris,
I completely agree with you that the doctrine of the trinity is an interpretation of the Bible and the word “trinity†is not even contained in its pages, I have no problem with this. But I do not think two distinctively differing ideas and thoughts behind the words “Christ†or “Jesus†can be used in equality from “traditional Christian†and Mormon perspectives.
Let me give a simple illustration:
If “x†, “y†, “z†, are properties of the “traditional Christian†view on the of subject J.
and
“w†, “xâ€, “y†are properties of the Mormon view of the subject J.
Can anyone logically say that the views are equal (not in the sense of their value, but in the sense of their ultimate conclusions about subject J) to each other? They may share similarities, but the differing properties behind those similarities ultimately will lead to a different conclusion about the subject at hand (in our case Jesus).
As I said before I have no problem respectfully disagreeing with you on your interpretation of what you believe the correct interpretation of how the deity of Christ should be understood. But it is extremely difficult for me to see how you can say that both views have the same Jesus. Try and help me understand, I am probably missing something.
Eric W on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:04 pm #
Hmmmm.
You condemn Truth Unites’s “pronouncement” and “attitude” and “approach,” and his “negativity,” “condemnation” and “exclusionism,” yet his statements seem mild compared to what respected Mormon leaders say about non-Mormons and non-Mormon Christianities: The Mormon Church Claims to be the Only True Church
Daniel Eaton on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:11 pm #
HEY EVERYONE!
Michael has asked us to reserve these comments for discussions with Rob about his piece. Can we please move the conversation that we would all like to have with Darryl and our other LDS friends over to the forum at http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/forum/showthread.php?p=2726
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:12 pm #
Dear Darryl,
Would it be alright if a Mormons are seen as “Category 5 Christians” per Rob Bowman’s taxonomy? Where the “Category 5 Christians” are the “none of the above” Christians.
In this way you’re not offended by my denial that Mormons are not Christians (per the restrictive definitional sense). I can just say that Mormons are “Category 5 Christians” or “none-of-the-above Christians.” And you and all other Mormons get to say that you are Christians, albeit of the Category 5 variety.
That’s a reasonable compromise, wouldn’t you agree?
Rob Bowman on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:18 pm #
All,
I hope you understand that I cannot respond to everyone. Forgive the selectivity of my comments.
Chris,
Mormonism’s relationship to Christianity is like neither that of Lutheranism to Catholicism nor that of Baha’i to Christianity. It is more like the relationship of Baha’i to Islam. It is true that Joseph Smith started out as a Protestant, and that his theology was at first predominantly Protestant (specifically Methodist). However, in founding the LDS Church, Joseph Smith was self-consciously separating himself from all other churches, including all Protestant denominations. The LDS Church’s stance toward historic Christianity became overtly that of a radical restorationism, according to which all churches and denominations that had come before Smith were apostate. The LDS Church claims to be the only true church on the earth today. It claims that only those people baptized into the LDS Church is validly baptized for the remission of their sins. It claims that only LDS can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. It claims that only LDS can preach the Gospel. This is all stated quite plainly in the Articles of Faith, part of the LDS scriptures. The Protestants did not make similar claims about the Catholic Church. They sought to reform the church, not to start it over from scratch. They did not abandon its canon or its major theological doctrines (as taught in the creeds).
Here’s something I find odd. How can Mormons view non-Mormons as Christians (in my narrow sense of the word)? Is there such a thing as a Christian who has not been validly baptized, who has not had his sins remitted, who cannot receive the Holy Ghost, and who is not authorized to preach the Gospel? What kind of a Christian is that?
Your assertion that evangelicals only started saying that Mormons are not Christians “within the last 40 years†is factually incorrect. I spent just a few minutes with some old dusty books from the nineteenth and early twentieth century and found similar assessments. Daniel P. Kidder, in his 1842 book _Mormonism and the Mormons_, asserted that Mormonism is “a system opposed to Christianity, and entirely subversive of its principles†(73). “What man in his senses can, for one moment, entertain the comparison of Mormonism with Christianity? For what communion hath Christ with Belial?†(76). In his 1912 book _Mormonism: The Islam of America_, Bruce Kinney wrote: “Untah has twenty-seven counties. Seven of these have a combi
Aaron Ronetski on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:19 pm #
Did any of the apostles provide for a “category 5″? Hmmm.
Aaron Ronetski on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:23 pm #
Guys, why are my comments “awaiting moderation”. Please e-mail me at aaronronetski@aol.com. Thanks!
Josh Gelatt on 12 Dec 2007 at 4:38 pm #
Okay Daryll….
You define the word “Christian”. Or is the word incapable of definition (in which case, then it isn’t technically a “word”)? Words, by their very nature, are exclusive.
Meaning, when i say the word “tree” it cannot include the concept of “machine gun”.
Or, is a machine gun a tree because some one set it against a tree? Or maybe its handle is made out of wood, does that make it a tree?
Just because Mormonism utilized Christian teaches doesn’t make it “Christian”. Islam incorporated Scripture from its very foundation. Is Islam just “another flavor”.
Also, you never addressed the substance of my point. Just because Baptist, Pentecostals, Catholics, etc disagree on any number of points, doesn’t mean that no concept of Christianity can exist.
You said: “Just don’t assume the arrogance and deceit of deciding that YOUR definition is the “real†one for everyone”.
I believing I PLAINLY said the definition should come with the cooperation of my brothers and sisters in Christ, from all denominations.
I also think it is equally arrogant to try to revise history by claiming that there is no such thing as orthodoxy.
You might not like the fact that the church resolved its teachings regarding the Trinity & deity of Christ. In fact, you might even disagree with its conclusions. But the fact remains that the vast majority of church declared these concepts and set the definitions for what can be considered legitimate Christianity.
Plus, the debates among the denominations are in-house debates. All go to Scripture to seek clarification. Mormonism finds its authority in a body of literature no Christian recognizes as authoritative. By appeal to another source, not to mention their redefinition of Christ and God, they are outside of anything resembling Christianity.
In fact, Islam has more in common with Christianity than Mormonism ever did.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 5:11 pm #
I typed up “ex-Mormon” in Google and found the following website:
http://www.exmormon.org/
I don’t know if it’ll be helpful for Darryl and other Mormons since I haven’t explored it, but it looks worthwhile.
Eric W on 12 Dec 2007 at 5:24 pm #
While at least one Jewish author has come out and stated that he believes that “Messianic Jews” are Jewish, the vast majority of Jews say that Jews who believe in Jesus are not Jewish, but are Christians. Why? Because the Jewish religion as believed and practiced by almost all Jews since the 1st or 2nd century has rejected belief in the Messiahship of Jesus as not being Jewish. It doesn’t matter what Jews who believe in Jesus say the Bible means and/or that the original followers of Jesus were all Jewish. The fact of the matter is, to believe in Jesus makes one a Christian, and Judaism parted from Christianity hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
(When I became a Christian, I never felt it right to refer to myself as a “Messianic Jew.” I was/am a Christian. Yes, I know that if one argues that one is either a “Jew” or a “Gentile,” then Jews who believe in Jesus remain “Jews” and don’t become “Gentiles,” but that simply illustrates that one has to define one’s terms, and in this case, I’m using “Christian” to mean one who follows Christianity, and “Jew” to mean one who follows Judaism.)
The same could be said about Christianity and Mormonism. It really doesn’t matter if the word “Trinity” or some of the Creedal statements can or cannot be found in the Scriptures. Christianity and Christians long ago declared certain beliefs about Jesus to be Christian, and certain opposing beliefs to be non-Christian. The nature of the Godhead and the Son as explained by the early Church Councils (i.e., Nicea, Constantinople, Chalcedon) is among those beliefs. If Mormonism rejects those beliefs, it is not Christian, or at least not Christian in any orthodox or historical sense.
Wade Englund on 12 Dec 2007 at 6:00 pm #
May I respectfully ask why certain Evangelicals, unlike members of other more prominate Christian denominations (such as Catholics and Greek Orthodox), have felt the need in the last 40 years or so, to fixate on the categorical label of “Christian” in public religious dialogue, and instead of applying the standard definition of the term, have presumptuously attempted to posited their own biased connotation?
Why is it so important to certain Evangelicals to unathoritatively fashion an otherwise broad term in such an exclusionary and divisive way?
Are these Evangelicals that insecure and impotent in their own Christian faith as to resort to this kind of rhetorical propaganda?
I mean…really…with all the significant moral and spiritual threats facing us in the world (like abortion, pornography, promiscuity, rape, murder, etc.), don’t we all have better things to do than play semantic games?
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Kaffinator on 12 Dec 2007 at 6:30 pm #
That’s a great question, Wade.
Resolving “what does it mean to be Christian” helps us understand more fully what it means to be an authentic follower of the risen Lord, Jesus the Christ. A proper understanding of the answer has enormous implications in every sphere of human activity: religious, political, moral, and otherwise. Given an insufficient answer, we risk misunderstanding the nature of Jesus and by implication God Himself, as well as the fundamentals of the Gospel — the good news, which is the only hope of all mankind.
The solution to moral and spiritual threats is not to beg everyone to “please everybody lets just stop doing bad things” but to fix our eyes on Jesus. And to work out what it means to be ‘Christian’ is one of the many ways to do just that.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 7:25 pm #
“The LDS Church claims to be the only true church on the earth today. It claims that only those people baptized into the LDS Church is validly baptized for the remission of their sins. It claims that only LDS can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. It claims that only LDS can preach the Gospel. This is all stated quite plainly in the Articles of Faith, part of the LDS scriptures.” (Rob Bowman)
“Why is it so important to certain Evangelicals to unathoritatively fashion an otherwise broad term in such an exclusionary and divisive way?” (Wade Englund)
Wade, let me put the same charge back on your lap. Given that the LDS Church claims to be the only true church, then why is Mormonism so extremely exclusionary and divisive?
C Michael Patton on 12 Dec 2007 at 7:28 pm #
Please direct all comments to each other to the thread created on the forum.
Only post interaction with Rob here.
Wade Englund on 12 Dec 2007 at 7:39 pm #
Hi Kaffinator,
While I agree in principle with much of what you said, I think you are confusing generally accepted definitions with denominational-specific doctrines–both of which have to do with “what it means to be ‘Christian’”. Evangelicals have the right to formulate the later for themselves, but not the former for all others–thought this is what I see happening in the afore-mentioned “semantic game”.
How about we all stop quibbling about who, externally, can or cannot be categorized under the definition of “Christian”, and focus instead, internally, on being “Christian”, according to our respective doctrinal understandings?
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:02 pm #
“Only post interaction with Rob here.”
Hi Rob, great post!
In your experience of evangelizing Mormons to become Christians, can you generalize as to what is the one Mormon doctrine that needs to be politely falsified by you so that they can realize that they’ve been believing a lie? And then from that point forward, the Gospel can then take root because you’ve broken through the Mormon indoctrination.
In other words, what’s been most effective from a substantive apologetic in converting Mormons to Christianity?
Wade Englund on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:13 pm #
Hi Truth Unites,
Since I am unable to post on the suggested forum (though I recently registered and activated my account), let me, out of due respect, respond to you here. You asked:
“Wade, let me put the same charge back on your lap. Given that the LDS Church claims to be the only true church, then why is Mormonism so extremely exclusionary and divisive?”
Please see my post above where I differentiate between generally excepted definitions and denominational-specific doctrines. Rob’s article deals with the former (as it relates to the word “Christian”), whereas your question to me deals with the latter (as it relates to “one true Church”).
This distinction is important in determining what any one denomination or segment of religious societies has the right to do in relation to themselves as contrasted in relation to others.
My point wasn’t so much about exclusion and divisiveness as it was about usurption and presumption, as well as frivolity. While members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, like Evangelicals, have the right to make doctrinal distinction for themselves (like what it means to be “Christian” or which is the one true gosple or Church), neither of us have the right to generally define what is “Christian”. To do the latter would be usurption and presumtuous semantic games, if not also frivolous–particularly in relation to significant moral and spiritual issues facing the world today.
Do you understand the difference?
Who Gave You the Authority? « Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:22 pm #
[…] Bowman opened a can of worms with a very, very, very, very, very long post this morning entitled “Whaddya Mean, Mormons Are Not Christians? Shedding Light on a Hot Topicâ€Â – If you have an extra day or two to kill I suggest giving it a read (someones gotta tell […]
Rob Bowman on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:22 pm #
Darryl,
You took issue with my statement that “Mormonism is not a sound, authentic form of Christianity,†commenting:
< < Mormonism is not a “sound, authentic form of Christianity†to WHOM? Who gave Evangelical Christians the authority to determine what is, and isn’t, a “sound, authentic form of Christianity� >>
Evangelicals, like everyone else, have a *responsibility* to reach an informed conclusion as to what the truth is about God and how we are to relate to him. Once we are convinced that some form of Christianity is the truth about God, we have a responsibility to reach a conclusion as to what is essential to that true form of Christianity.
For example, if we conclude (as we obviously should) that belief in Jesus’ resurrection is essential to Christian faith, then any form of Christianity that denies the resurrection of Jesus will have to be viewed as not a sound or authentic form of Christianity.
So, to use one of my examples from my post, when I look at the teachings of John Shelby Spong, I conclude that Spong is not a Christian (in the “narrow†sense of the term) and that what he teaches is not a sound, authentic form of Christianity.
Is that okay with you?
Now, of course, Mormons affirm the resurrection of Jesus, so on this particular point they “pass the test.†However, other tests are possible; and the principle here is that evangelicals have the responsibility, and the right, to examine the teachings of anyone professing to be Christians and to reach a determination as to whether those teachings are acceptably Christian. And yes, everyone else has that responsibility and right as well, including you. We are all responsible for reaching an informed position as to what true Christianity is. This means that I do not have the authority to dictate to you “Believe this is true Christianity because I, Rob Bowman, say so.†It also means that you do not have the authority to dictate to me “Believe this is true Christianity because I, Darryl Barksdale, say so.†We each must reach his own decision in the matter—and we are each free to try to persuade one another to agree with our conclusion.
Kaffinator on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:32 pm #
Wade: reread my post for why I think it is important how we define “Christian” and “Christianity”. Within my tradition it is important to discover the truth of things, in an objective sense, because we believe this is ultimately good for everyone.
I wonder why you feel the need to tell people what their rights are, and what they should or should not “quibble” about? I mean, if we’re really just quibbling, aren’t you now just quibbling about quibbling, and isn’t that, well, even worse?
And: Mr. Patton I just saw your comment and will continue this discussion elsewhere if necessary.
djeaton3162 on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:35 pm #
Rob, will you be joining the forum discussion as your time allows? It would be good to have you there. I just posted a response to some of this there, but It’s nice when you are there in person and no one is forced to speak *for* you.
Rob Bowman on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:40 pm #
Wade,
Apparently there are some “talking points” out there in LDS Land that include the assertion that it has only been in the last forty years that evangelicals have been denying that Mormonism is genuinely “Christian.” That isn’t the case. See my response to Chris (comment #57).
Your protest that we ought to have better things to do in view of the immorality of our time is a diversionary tactic. Suppose I asked you, “In view of these terrible evils in our society, why do Mormons insist on spending time redefining Christian doctrines and adding to the canon of Scripture”? What sort of argument is that? I thank God that you agree with us that abortion, murder, rape, and the like are evil, but we still have a responsibility *also* to think clearly about such questions as who and what God is, who Jesus Christ is, how we can be assured of eternal life in God’s kingdom, and where true Christianity is to be found today.
Rob Bowman on 12 Dec 2007 at 8:43 pm #
Daniel,
I’ll stop by and see what’s being said, but due to time constraints it’s doubtful that I’ll be able to participate much on that forum. But thanks for asking, and thanks for your input!
Wade Englund on 12 Dec 2007 at 9:15 pm #
Hi Rob,
Thanks for responding.
Do you, like some of your fellow Evangelicals, not understand the important distinction between generally accepted definitions and denominational-specific doctrines?
You are essentially arguing semantics here, and doing so unathoritatively. (By that I mean that neither you, nor any other Evangelical, is in a position to define for the rest of Christianity, or the world for that matter, the meaning of the word “Christian”–though you are in a position to formulate doctrines within your own faith-tradition as to what it means to be “Christian”)
Now, try as you might to embue such semantic games with significance, it is a far cry from theology and soteriology (such as determining “who God is, who Jesus Christ is, how we can be assured of eternal life in God’s,” etc.) as well as matters of continuing revelation and devine clarification.
Truth Unites... and Divides on 12 Dec 2007 at 9:19 pm #
Dear Wade,
There’s certainly equivalence in principle between the two questions. Although I can certainly understand your felt need to create an artificial distinction and separation between the two.
Asking “Who is a Christian” and “Who is the true church” is *both* a definitional question and a doctrinal question.
Definitions and doctrines have the inherent property of being exclusive.
So definining who is a Christian and who is the true church is an exclusive and divisive exercise.
In conclusion, if LDS Mormons claim that they are the true church, then they are being exclusive and divisive. As a result, Mormons then don’t have a moral leg to stand on when they complain that Christians don’t regard Mormons as Christians … by definition.
Rob Bowman on 12 Dec 2007 at 10:47 pm #
Wade,
Why don’t you explain it to me, instead of putting forth such a condescending rhetorical question?
There is nothing “denominational-specific” about my understanding of what is essential to Christian faith. What I consider essential to Christianity is affirmed in numerous denominations across the theological spectrum of orthodox Christianity.
I am not playing “semantic games” here. Clarifying language in order to avoid misunderstanding and to facilitate a substantive discussion of the issues is not a game; it is a very serious business.
You made the claim that evangelicals have only been saying that Mormonism is not Christian for the past forty years, and I refuted that claim. You offered no response. You tried to divert attention away from the issue by bringing up the moral evils in the world, and I explained the irrelevancy of that diversion. You offered no response. Instead you tried some more vague criticisms, apparently in the hope that some of them would stick. They didn’t.
six steps + Victoria veritatis est caritas » Are you a Non-Christian? on 13 Dec 2007 at 12:04 am #
[…] an article by Robert M. Bowman Jr. on Mormonism, he begins the article with an insightful overview of […]
Truth Unites... and Divides on 13 Dec 2007 at 3:19 am #
Read how Jesus and the apostles responded to false teachers and those who embraced them:
Jesus said: Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Paul said: If any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Peter said: It has happened to them [false teachers] according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,†and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.â€
John said: If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
Jude said: Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. . . . [They are] clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
No offense intended, although some will take offense: Rob Bowman and others are correct in lovingly stating with conviction and clarity that…
Mormons are NOT Christians
BJ Mora on 13 Dec 2007 at 6:06 am #
Thanks Rob. I apologize if someone above has pointed this out, so:
Your ‘other’ group should equal 1/6 billion, not ‘about’ 1/4 billion…
Nick on 13 Dec 2007 at 8:00 am #
It must be remembered, (I didn’t read all the comments so my apologies if someone said this) that if the Mormon church wishes to complain about not being included under the umbrella, they cast the first stone. According to what Joseph Smith heard, all of the rest of us are apostates and God has rejected us, hence, the need to start Mormonism. It makes me wonder then why if we’re such apostate churches the Mormons would want to identify with us so quickly.
The only point I’m uncertain on though is if Islam is the fastest growing religion. I’ve heard it before, bu