Comments on: The Rise of the Intellectual Charismatics http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/ Making Theology Accessible Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:24:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Clint http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-27509 Clint Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:03:20 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-27509 I appreciate your care in this post and your honesty. I am a continuationist and have experienced a little of the miraculous. I have come to the conclusion that the gifts are still for today because I don't have a reason from Scripture to believe otherwise. It seems to me that Scripture would have taken great care to prepare believers for the transition rather than leave us to infer it from personal experience and church history. But the sign gifts certainly don't seem a fraction as normative as some of our more charismatic brothers claim. But, I will mention this. Brother, it is far more miraculous for you to endure through the struggles that you have than for a man to jump out of a wheelchair or for the dead to rise. Your experience of sustaining grace in the midst of intense suffering ranks pretty high as a sign-gift to me. I would rather see that kind of miracle than a thousand physical healings. May our God in Christ show you the riches of His love and mercy. 1 Cor. 2:2, Clint I appreciate your care in this post and your honesty. I am a continuationist and have experienced a little of the miraculous. I have come to the conclusion that the gifts are still for today because I don’t have a reason from Scripture to believe otherwise. It seems to me that Scripture would have taken great care to prepare believers for the transition rather than leave us to infer it from personal experience and church history. But the sign gifts certainly don’t seem a fraction as normative as some of our more charismatic brothers claim.

But, I will mention this. Brother, it is far more miraculous for you to endure through the struggles that you have than for a man to jump out of a wheelchair or for the dead to rise. Your experience of sustaining grace in the midst of intense suffering ranks pretty high as a sign-gift to me. I would rather see that kind of miracle than a thousand physical healings.

May our God in Christ show you the riches of His love and mercy.

1 Cor. 2:2,
Clint

]]> By: Alfonso Alvarez http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-24006 Alfonso Alvarez Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:17:25 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-24006 A Charismatic Calvinist! Now there's an oxymoron if you want one. But then again, who would have thought that cessationists would ever take a second look at the power of the Kingdom back in the 1980's? The miracles of the Kingdom were documented to be continuing well into the 4th century, long after the last apostle died. And they continue to this day, specially to those whose worldview has not foreclosed on the possibilities of them happening. Remember, even the Lord Yeshua had a partial healing experience with the blind man who could only see shadows. A Charismatic Calvinist! Now there’s an oxymoron if you want one.

But then again, who would have thought that cessationists would ever take a second look at the power of the Kingdom back in the 1980’s?

The miracles of the Kingdom were documented to be continuing well into the 4th century, long after the last apostle died. And they continue to this day, specially to those whose worldview has not foreclosed on the possibilities of them happening.

Remember, even the Lord Yeshua had a partial healing experience with the blind man who could only see shadows.

]]> By: JRoach http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-3764 JRoach Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:33:40 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-3764 I know I am being too simplistic but I would really like to see someone who has been blind or have some type of serious physical impairment to be healed instantly. Better yet, see a modern prophet raise someone from the dead. If the gifts of Acts continue then these should be expected. I know I am being too simplistic but I would really like to see someone who has been blind or have some type of serious physical impairment to be healed instantly. Better yet, see a modern prophet raise someone from the dead. If the gifts of Acts continue then these should be expected.

]]> By: Cheryl Ford http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-3763 Cheryl Ford Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:27:00 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-3763 #2. I really must apologize to you. I completely missed the paragraph about your mom. I have been physically healed of some things -- one time instantly -- but not of others. My daughter is used in healing ministry yet suffers with migraines, for one thing. There are many mysteries related to suffering, and there are definitely no pat answers. We shouldn't try to force God into a mold, nor in a box. He is God, and His ways are definitely higher. I humbly hope you will accept my apology for missing the paragraph about your family. I know how difficult this can be. We do know that He will work it for good and even for some higher glory. Keep hoping, keep believing, keep seeking. His promises are eternal, and He's got amazing discoveries ahead. Many blessings to you and to your loved ones! In Christ's love, Cheryl #2. I really must apologize to you. I completely missed the paragraph about your mom. I have been physically healed of some things — one time instantly — but not of others. My daughter is used in healing ministry yet suffers with migraines, for one thing. There are many mysteries related to suffering, and there are definitely no pat answers. We shouldn’t try to force God into a mold, nor in a box. He is God, and His ways are definitely higher. I humbly hope you will accept my apology for missing the paragraph about your family. I know how difficult this can be. We do know that He will work it for good and even for some higher glory. Keep hoping, keep believing, keep seeking. His promises are eternal, and He’s got amazing discoveries ahead. Many blessings to you and to your loved ones!
In Christ’s love,
Cheryl

]]> By: Cheryl Ford http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-3762 Cheryl Ford Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:49:38 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-3762 Hi there, I just bumped into your website. I don't remember exactly how I got there. Not 10 minutes ago I wrote the message below to a friend. You said you are still a cessationist because you haven't experienced certain things. Isn't this criteria of experience the one that so many have proudly decried through the years as illegitimate? ("You can't go by experience," "They are too much into experience.") Here's the message I wrote to a Facebook friend whose husband is sick: I pray you will touch our beloved Wayne with your divine hand and heal his body for your glory and all of the _____ joy. Thank you for your amazing love for your servant. Amen! My daughter Hannah went to Disneyland this week with friends. They prayed for a person to be healed, and she was. They prayed for a medical doctor's son, a star basketball player with a shoulder injury, out for the season. He was healed. He started texting friends (all 8th graders from a secular charter school). Curious, they started coming from all over the park. They were utterly amazed to see what God was doing and to experience His touch on their lives. My daughter had about 30 of them excitedly praying en masse to receive Jesus Christ. It's all on video. It was like a NT revival story -- "and there was great joy in that city." This demonstrates that God WANTS to send revival and "waits to be gracious." Is He saying, "Hey, I'm no cessationist"? Hi there,
I just bumped into your website. I don’t remember exactly how I got there. Not 10 minutes ago I wrote the message below to a friend. You said you are still a cessationist because you haven’t experienced certain things. Isn’t this criteria of experience the one that so many have proudly decried through the years as illegitimate? (“You can’t go by experience,” “They are too much into experience.”)
Here’s the message I wrote to a Facebook friend whose husband is sick: I pray you will touch our beloved Wayne with your divine hand and heal his body for your glory and all of the _____ joy. Thank you for your amazing love for your servant. Amen! My daughter Hannah went to Disneyland this week with friends. They prayed for a person to be healed, and she was. They prayed for a medical doctor’s son, a star basketball player with a shoulder injury, out for the season. He was healed. He started texting friends (all 8th graders from a secular charter school). Curious, they started coming from all over the park. They were utterly amazed to see what God was doing and to experience His touch on their lives. My daughter had about 30 of them excitedly praying en masse to receive Jesus Christ. It’s all on video. It was like a NT revival story — “and there was great joy in that city.” This demonstrates that God WANTS to send revival and “waits to be gracious.” Is He saying, “Hey, I’m no cessationist”?

]]> By: Overbevisende karismatik | Apologetik.dk http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-3761 Overbevisende karismatik | Apologetik.dk Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:37:36 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-3761 [...] til reformationens doktriner er forbi. C. Michael Patton fra Reclaimingthemind har skrevet en genial artikel om det. Selv er han en blød cessationist og mener altså at Åndens gaver ophørte med den sidste apostels [...] [...] til reformationens doktriner er forbi. C. Michael Patton fra Reclaimingthemind har skrevet en genial artikel om det. Selv er han en blød cessationist og mener altså at Åndens gaver ophørte med den sidste apostels [...]

]]> By: Kara Kittle http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-3760 Kara Kittle Wed, 04 Mar 2009 23:00:41 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-3760 You mean Pentecostal/Charismatics should be excluded from the realm of intellect and intelligencia...? Is this a new concept? LOL....you know I am being snarky here...but all my life I have never heard that we were even placed into the same category as thinkers...this is new and I need to get on the train before I miss out on the great intellectual awakening of the Charismatic... I can say this because as I said the other day...."me are one". Why does it seem this is something strange? The appeal to Charismatic/Pentecostal has always been to include the poor, the "lower" class and the disenfranchised in some manner. You don't have to be a genius to be Charismatic, but it seems in most churches that are viewed as more "qualified" you almost do have to be an intellectual giant to be able to speak or do anything aside from being a janitor. I would prefer to be in a church that threw intellectualism out the door and simply worshipped God. But that's just me. If anyone from any of the greatest theology universities were to just go and sit for half an hour and ask any one of the people I know from the small, ignored churches about how they love God, they would be surprised to find that these people really do have a genuine love. I prefer to use my mind to study as much as I can but never would I want to think I could ever learn so much there is no more for me to learn. I think it is ok to believe Charismatics and Pentecostals can be as intelligent as any one else. You mean Pentecostal/Charismatics should be excluded from the realm of intellect and intelligencia…? Is this a new concept? LOL….you know I am being snarky here…but all my life I have never heard that we were even placed into the same category as thinkers…this is new and I need to get on the train before I miss out on the great intellectual awakening of the Charismatic…

I can say this because as I said the other day….”me are one”. Why does it seem this is something strange? The appeal to Charismatic/Pentecostal has always been to include the poor, the “lower” class and the disenfranchised in some manner. You don’t have to be a genius to be Charismatic, but it seems in most churches that are viewed as more “qualified” you almost do have to be an intellectual giant to be able to speak or do anything aside from being a janitor. I would prefer to be in a church that threw intellectualism out the door and simply worshipped God. But that’s just me.

If anyone from any of the greatest theology universities were to just go and sit for half an hour and ask any one of the people I know from the small, ignored churches about how they love God, they would be surprised to find that these people really do have a genuine love. I prefer to use my mind to study as much as I can but never would I want to think I could ever learn so much there is no more for me to learn. I think it is ok to believe Charismatics and Pentecostals can be as intelligent as any one else.

]]> By: Brian http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-3759 Brian Thu, 08 Jan 2009 04:15:35 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-3759 You are forgetting a leading NT Scholar, Gordon Fee whose work on 1 Corinthians is standard. Also, his work God's Empowering Presence is a must read for a theology of the Holy Spirit in Paul (or his condensed version Paul, the Spirit and the People of God). I am with John - go with Keener over Grudem for serious pentecostal/charismatic scholarship or to see that pentecostal/charismatics can produce serious scholarship - case in point is Keeners massive two volume work on John, which Richard Bauckham thinks rivals if not exceeds Raymond Browns two volume AB commentary on John. Consider too Keener book Gift and Giver: The Holy Spirit for Today. You are forgetting a leading NT Scholar, Gordon Fee whose work on 1 Corinthians is standard. Also, his work God’s Empowering Presence is a must read for a theology of the Holy Spirit in Paul (or his condensed version Paul, the Spirit and the People of God).

I am with John – go with Keener over Grudem for serious pentecostal/charismatic scholarship or to see that pentecostal/charismatics can produce serious scholarship – case in point is Keeners massive two volume work on John, which Richard Bauckham thinks rivals if not exceeds Raymond Browns two volume AB commentary on John.

Consider too Keener book Gift and Giver: The Holy Spirit for Today.

]]> By: John C. Poirier http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-3758 John C. Poirier Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:07:07 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-3758 This is an odd set of "intellectual" charismatics that you have listed. They seem to be merely teh ones that a Westminster-style Reformed type might encounter. As a Pentecostal myself, the only one I would personally give any mind to is Keener. (I've never met anyone who cares for Grudems *Systematic Theology*.) If you want a more diverse picture of the intellectual side of modern Pentecostalism/charismatics, check out a few years' worth of copies of *Pneuma*, or the *Journal of Pentecostal Theology*. Mind you--there are aspects to this "intellectual" side of Pentecostalism that I don't like. E.g.,k Pentcostal scholars tend to be very trendy, probably because of their desire to have Pentecostalism taken more seriously in the academy. All I'm saying is that the landscape looks very different from within the movement. This is an odd set of “intellectual” charismatics that you have listed. They seem to be merely teh ones that a Westminster-style Reformed type might encounter. As a Pentecostal myself, the only one I would personally give any mind to is Keener. (I’ve never met anyone who cares for Grudems *Systematic Theology*.)

If you want a more diverse picture of the intellectual side of modern Pentecostalism/charismatics, check out a few years’ worth of copies of *Pneuma*, or the *Journal of Pentecostal Theology*.

Mind you–there are aspects to this “intellectual” side of Pentecostalism that I don’t like. E.g.,k Pentcostal scholars tend to be very trendy, probably because of their desire to have Pentecostalism taken more seriously in the academy.

All I’m saying is that the landscape looks very different from within the movement.

]]> By: Ray Ciervo http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/10/the-intellectual-rise-of-the-charismatics/comment-page-1/#comment-3757 Ray Ciervo Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:20:39 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/?p=1227#comment-3757 The landscape has surely changed. If Charismatics were guilty of anything it would be having "full hearts" and "empty heads." If Cessationists were guilty of anything it would be lumping all Charismatic or "continuationists" into the same lump. Charismatics, and I am one, are not all of the same ilk, i.e., Benny Hinn. Many Charismatics were concerned that "character" was not governing gifts, but vice versa. Divisions were further caused when the "lumping" ruled out any significant dialogue between the two camps. The recognition that there are Charismatic scholars has been a long time coming. Assemblies have had scholars for some time. The Charismatic movement affected more traditional denominations and hence, Wayne Grudem. Christianity today called Jack Hayford the "Gold Standard" of Pentecostals, who were the first to speak in tongues and in many ways are the fastest growing group in many parts of the world, set the stage over one hundred years ago. Pentecostals have had many fine scholars. Perhaps the way forward is to continue this dialogue and learn from the overstating and pigeon-holing one another. I have learned from some of the best non-charismatic theologians who could not present an argument that would make me change my beliefs (or experience). I've also learned from those who are Charismatic and been enriched by their humility and knowledge of the Word. Perhaps we must learn this is a false dichotomy of choosing either or. Is there a third alternative, or a refining of beliefs, historically, biblically and theologically The landscape has surely changed. If Charismatics were guilty of anything it would be having “full hearts” and “empty heads.” If Cessationists were guilty of anything it would be lumping all Charismatic or “continuationists” into the same lump.

Charismatics, and I am one, are not all of the same ilk, i.e., Benny Hinn. Many Charismatics were concerned that “character” was not governing gifts, but vice versa. Divisions were further caused when the “lumping” ruled out any significant dialogue between the two camps.

The recognition that there are Charismatic scholars has been a long time coming. Assemblies have had scholars for some time. The Charismatic movement affected more traditional denominations and hence, Wayne Grudem.

Christianity today called Jack Hayford the “Gold Standard” of Pentecostals, who were the first to speak in tongues and in many ways are the fastest growing group in many parts of the world, set the stage over one hundred years ago. Pentecostals have had many fine scholars. Perhaps the way forward is to continue this dialogue and learn from the overstating and pigeon-holing one another.

I have learned from some of the best non-charismatic theologians who could not present an argument that would make me change my beliefs (or experience). I’ve also learned from those who are Charismatic and been enriched by their humility and knowledge of the Word.

Perhaps we must learn this is a false dichotomy of choosing either or. Is there a third alternative, or a refining of beliefs, historically, biblically and theologically

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