Comments on: What happened to the twelve apostles? http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/ Just another WordPress weblog Tue, 02 Dec 2008 04:08:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-4191 C Michael Patton Sat, 16 Aug 2008 01:44:18 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-4191 Thanks Ryan! Thanks Ryan!

]]> By: Ryan http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-4173 Ryan Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:37:35 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-4173 Man, this is excellent work. May God bless you for putting together not just a good compilation of the facts, but with an unbiased view, as well. I thoroughly enjoyed it and I hope that you will continue to release more scholarly writings like this! Also, your response to objections was not just welcome, but embellished! I'm no authority on biblical history, but from my humble view, awesome job. Man, this is excellent work. May God bless you for putting together not just a good compilation of the facts, but with an unbiased view, as well. I thoroughly enjoyed it and I hope that you will continue to release more scholarly writings like this!

Also, your response to objections was not just welcome, but embellished! I’m no authority on biblical history, but from my humble view, awesome job.

]]> By: Glenn Shrom http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-4080 Glenn Shrom Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:15:35 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-4080 I have been discussing this with Paul Tobin, who has a website with information relevant to the martyrdom of the disciples. ("Rejection of Pascal's Wager") He says that the most reliable accounts of the disciples' deaths (Peter and James?) involve charges of arson, which even if the disciples denied the charges, they were found guilty anyway, and were executed. What are the ratings on the accounts that say the disciples were executed for crimes against the state, instead of for their testimony about Christ, and instead of for their profession as followers of Christ? I have been discussing this with Paul Tobin, who has a website with information relevant to the martyrdom of the disciples. (”Rejection of Pascal’s Wager”)

He says that the most reliable accounts of the disciples’ deaths (Peter and James?) involve charges of arson, which even if the disciples denied the charges, they were found guilty anyway, and were executed.

What are the ratings on the accounts that say the disciples were executed for crimes against the state, instead of for their testimony about Christ, and instead of for their profession as followers of Christ?

]]> By: Paul http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-4050 Paul Wed, 13 Aug 2008 02:17:37 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-4050 1. You would have to conclude that they died for a lie and knew it (unsustainable do to lack of any motive). 2. They were all delusional and crazy (but this would take more faith than any option since you would have to explain how they all had the same delusion and craziness, many being at different places and different times). 3. What they said was true. Christ did rise from the grave and is who He said He was.  or 4. None of this ever happened and it was all made up after the fact. I vote 4. 1. You would have to conclude that they died for a lie and knew it (unsustainable do to lack of any motive).
2. They were all delusional and crazy (but this would take more faith than any option since you would have to explain how they all had the same delusion and craziness, many being at different places and different times).
3. What they said was true. Christ did rise from the grave and is who He said He was. Â

or

4. None of this ever happened and it was all made up after the fact.

I vote 4.

]]> By: Quick Takes - 9/15/2007 at Ray Fowler .org http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-3000 Quick Takes - 9/15/2007 at Ray Fowler .org Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:09:40 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-3000 [...] Michael Patton gives a comprehensive answer to the question, “What happened to the twelve apostles?” “They died because they proclaimed to have seen Christ die and then to have seen Him alive. [...] [...] Michael Patton gives a comprehensive answer to the question, “What happened to the twelve apostles?” “They died because they proclaimed to have seen Christ die and then to have seen Him alive. [...]

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2998 C Michael Patton Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:54:03 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2998 Joe, good comments, but that would take us in a different direction! :) Joe, good comments, but that would take us in a different direction! :)

]]> By: Joe Cameron http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2999 Joe Cameron Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:33:30 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2999 In light of His Resurrection and the several appearances of The Lord shortly thereafter,I believe that it is an incontrovertible fact that the early church expected a soon return of The Lord Jesus, and soon in the sense that man reckons time. Further, John quotes Jesus in Rev.22:20 "Yes, I am coming soon". BUT, Peter reminds his readers(2Peter3:8) : But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. Therefore in God's scheme of reckoning time, approximately only 1.974 days have elapsed since The Resurrection. I'm certain that not all believers agree with me on this issue, but if you don't, I would like to read your refutation of it. In light of His Resurrection and the several appearances of The Lord shortly thereafter,I believe that it is an incontrovertible fact that the early church expected a soon return of The Lord Jesus, and soon in the sense that man reckons time.
Further, John quotes Jesus in Rev.22:20 “Yes, I am coming soon”.
BUT, Peter reminds his readers(2Peter3:8) : But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Therefore in God’s scheme of reckoning time, approximately only 1.974 days have elapsed since The Resurrection.
I’m certain that not all believers agree with me on this issue, but if you don’t, I would like to read your refutation of it.

]]> By: Vance http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2997 Vance Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:14:58 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2997 I am an attorney and I would love to have that evidence going into court. Of course, the 500 eyewitnesses would be nice to have as a back up! :) I am an attorney and I would love to have that evidence going into court. Of course, the 500 eyewitnesses would be nice to have as a back up! :)

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2996 C Michael Patton Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:09:59 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2996 Joe, you are right. I am not trial lawyer, but it make sense to me. How could you deny the strength of their testimony? Sir Simon Greenleaf made a similar argument in his The Testimony of the Four Evangelists. He basically wrote the book on Harvard law from what I understand. Joe, you are right. I am not trial lawyer, but it make sense to me. How could you deny the strength of their testimony?

Sir Simon Greenleaf made a similar argument in his The Testimony of the Four Evangelists. He basically wrote the book on Harvard law from what I understand.

]]> By: Joe Cameron http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2995 Joe Cameron Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:00:02 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2995 I read a statement made by a trial lawyer that the eye witness testimony given by the apostles makes the crucfixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ the two best attested facts in human history. Further, the writer asserted that the recorded eye witness testimony is unassailable, and would stand up in any court of law. JPC I read a statement made by a trial lawyer that the eye witness testimony given by the apostles makes the crucfixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ the two best attested facts in human history. Further, the writer asserted that the recorded eye witness testimony is unassailable, and would stand up in any court of law.
JPC

]]> By: Qué le sucedió a los Apóstoles? « sujetosalaRoca http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2991 Qué le sucedió a los Apóstoles? « sujetosalaRoca Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:30:50 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2991 [...] Si desean leer todo el artículo lo pueden hacer aquí… [...] [...] Si desean leer todo el artículo lo pueden hacer aquí… [...]

]]> By: Enterprise24 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2988 Enterprise24 Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:13:31 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2988 Nice quotes, Nick :-) Nice quotes, Nick :-)

]]> By: Nick N. http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2989 Nick N. Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:46:32 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2989 . . . rant continued: Some scholars seem to think that the more skeptical they are, the more critical they are. But adopting an excessive and unwarranted stance is no more critical than gullibly accepting whatever comes along. In my view, a lot of what passes for critical is not critical at all; it is nothing more than skepticism masking itself as scholarship. [Craig A. Evans. <i>Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels</i>, (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), 46.] But on a positive note: "Today, scholars are more open to talking about the miracles of Jesus because they rightly recognize that the task of the historian is to describe what people reported and recorded. It isn’t the historian’s task to engage in science and metaphysics. In other words, it is enough that historians acknowledge that Jesus’ contemporaries observed what they believed were miracles; historians should not try to explain exactly what Jesus did or how he did it." [Ibid. 139] ;) . . . rant continued:

Some scholars seem to think that the more skeptical they are, the more critical they are. But adopting an excessive and unwarranted stance is no more critical than gullibly accepting whatever comes along. In my view, a lot of what passes for critical is not critical at all; it is nothing more than skepticism masking itself as scholarship. [Craig A. Evans. Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels, (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), 46.]

But on a positive note:

“Today, scholars are more open to talking about the miracles of Jesus because they rightly recognize that the task of the historian is to describe what people reported and recorded. It isn’t the historian’s task to engage in science and metaphysics. In other words, it is enough that historians acknowledge that Jesus’ contemporaries observed what they believed were miracles; historians should not try to explain exactly what Jesus did or how he did it.” [Ibid. 139]
;)

]]> By: Bullet Points 09/10/07 at PastorBlog http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2990 Bullet Points 09/10/07 at PastorBlog Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:26:06 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2990 [...] What happened to the twelve apostles?: C. Michael Patton has a helpful article where he discusses how each of the disciples died. I [...] [...] What happened to the twelve apostles?: C. Michael Patton has a helpful article where he discusses how each of the disciples died. I [...]

]]> By: Vance http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2994 Vance Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:24:01 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2994 At each point reading through this article, I was saying "exactly, and don't forget . . ." and there it would be in the next paragraph! I think you are right that the primary objection is based on the worldview that the supernatural does not happen. Absent that presupposition, the evidence from purely historical terms would be overwhelming. Even absent the best evidence for some of these deaths, we do have sufficient evidence from credible sources for enough of these deaths to get there. As someone with historical training, it really irks me when the NT documents themselves are not given their historical due. Rather than being treated with the same degree of objectivity and analysis as other first century texts, they are shoved out of the arena of historical analysis because of their "bias". Yet, these same historians can take other documents written by people with significant biases and, by applying proper standards and filters, glean much historical data that, when compared with other sources, adds to the collective knowledge base. But some refuse to do this for the NT texts. I cry foul! Rant over. At each point reading through this article, I was saying “exactly, and don’t forget . . .” and there it would be in the next paragraph!

I think you are right that the primary objection is based on the worldview that the supernatural does not happen. Absent that presupposition, the evidence from purely historical terms would be overwhelming. Even absent the best evidence for some of these deaths, we do have sufficient evidence from credible sources for enough of these deaths to get there.

As someone with historical training, it really irks me when the NT documents themselves are not given their historical due. Rather than being treated with the same degree of objectivity and analysis as other first century texts, they are shoved out of the arena of historical analysis because of their “bias”. Yet, these same historians can take other documents written by people with significant biases and, by applying proper standards and filters, glean much historical data that, when compared with other sources, adds to the collective knowledge base. But some refuse to do this for the NT texts. I cry foul!

Rant over.

]]> By: NCApologist http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2993 NCApologist Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:06:50 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2993 You are 100% correct; the martyrdom of the disciples/apostles is by far one of the greatest apologetics for the Resurrection of Jesus. As stated above, no one dies for what they know to be a lie. Comparing their deaths to those of the attacks on 9/11 is foolish. Ravi Zacharias has mentioned before that there is a memorial in his home town in India that honors the Apostle Thomas. What is your opinion on Fox’s Book of Martyr’s ? You are 100% correct; the martyrdom of the disciples/apostles is by far one of the greatest apologetics for the Resurrection of Jesus. As stated above, no one dies for what they know to be a lie. Comparing their deaths to those of the attacks on 9/11 is foolish.
Ravi Zacharias has mentioned before that there is a memorial in his home town in India that honors the Apostle Thomas.

What is your opinion on Fox’s Book of Martyr’s ?

]]> By: Joanie D http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2992 Joanie D Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:48:32 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2007/01/10/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles/#comment-2992 This is great, Michael! Thank you for all your work and study and for sharing it with us. Maybe this should be put in some kind of "brochure" mode and shared with the whole world somehow. But hey, putting it out here on the internet IS sharing it with the whole world, isn't it. We just need to get the whole world to come here and read it. (Thomas' death sounds particularly brutal IF, in fact, it occurred that way.) Joanie D. This is great, Michael! Thank you for all your work and study and for sharing it with us. Maybe this should be put in some kind of “brochure” mode and shared with the whole world somehow. But hey, putting it out here on the internet IS sharing it with the whole world, isn’t it. We just need to get the whole world to come here and read it.

(Thomas’ death sounds particularly brutal IF, in fact, it occurred that way.)

Joanie D.

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