Comments on: The Evangelical Epidemic of Theological Accountability and Discipline http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/ Just another WordPress weblog Tue, 02 Dec 2008 04:28:57 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: David http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-9600 David Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:53:01 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-9600 I have just stumbled over this blog (I know it's more than a year old) and have thoroughly enjoyed the discusssion. I have followed some of the other blogs and really appreciate the comments of many of your regulars. They show much insight and thought about the subject at hand. I just wanted to mention a point I picked up recently while reading Emil Brunner's, The Mediator. In the introductory material you states a case for the purpose of theology in the church. He places theology as a fence or a hedge around what can legitimately be called Christian teaching. While we attempt to fence in the least amount of territory, there is always a degree of uncertainty, at least this side of heaven. With a correct understanding of biblical truth we can include both Calvinists and Armenians while excluding the new Messiah seen on the Today Show. I have just stumbled over this blog (I know it’s more than a year old) and have thoroughly enjoyed the discusssion. I have followed some of the other blogs and really appreciate the comments of many of your regulars. They show much insight and thought about the subject at hand.

I just wanted to mention a point I picked up recently while reading Emil Brunner’s, The Mediator. In the introductory material you states a case for the purpose of theology in the church. He places theology as a fence or a hedge around what can legitimately be called Christian teaching. While we attempt to fence in the least amount of territory, there is always a degree of uncertainty, at least this side of heaven. With a correct understanding of biblical truth we can include both Calvinists and Armenians while excluding the new Messiah seen on the Today Show.

]]> By: Blue Collar Theology 9: C. Michael Patton on Theological Accountability « Provocations & Pantings http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2948 Blue Collar Theology 9: C. Michael Patton on Theological Accountability « Provocations & Pantings Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:23:49 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2948 [...] the Parchment and Pen blog, C. Michael Patton recently wrote an excellent article entitled, “The Evangelical Epidemic of Theological Accountability and Discipline” in which he makes an excellent case why (albeit tacitly) theological education must [...] [...] the Parchment and Pen blog, C. Michael Patton recently wrote an excellent article entitled, “The Evangelical Epidemic of Theological Accountability and Discipline” in which he makes an excellent case why (albeit tacitly) theological education must [...]

]]> By: Lisa R http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2947 Lisa R Fri, 07 Sep 2007 18:26:43 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2947 PS - that was not a paid advertisement : - ) PS - that was not a paid advertisement : - )

]]> By: Lisa R http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2946 Lisa R Fri, 07 Sep 2007 18:23:37 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2946 Mike K, This is where I would put my plug in for the Theology Program because it really is designed with the average Joe in mind. Some people run or tune out, when they think "theology" but I think, no hope, you would find it quite user-friendly. I would encourage you and your wife to check it out. Mike K,

This is where I would put my plug in for the Theology Program because it really is designed with the average Joe in mind. Some people run or tune out, when they think “theology” but I think, no hope, you would find it quite user-friendly. I would encourage you and your wife to check it out.

]]> By: Michael K http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2945 Michael K Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:02:48 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2945 Vance - I was specifically responding your Post# 14. Like - From the Balcony I too was blown away with some of the ideas in this post. Humor aside I agree with your last paragraph. For my wife sitting in a theology class would be like sitting in a class room with the Peanuts gang. All she'd hear from the teacher would be "waa waa waa", and this is a woman who is an HR Director for a large international firm. I've asked her numerous times if the issue for her is one of not really wanting to understand or an inability to understand. She's responded every time that theological discussions simply fly over her head. Sigh As someone who's done years of Sr. High Sunday School teaching I believe it to be absolutely essential for a Christian to have a basic level of theological understanding. I believe we've achieved that basic level in our church be doing an exhaustive study of the Westminster Catechism. But I have to say the courses offered from this ministry are intriguing. (btw I just came across this site for the first time today so I'm still soaking in all the possibilities) Vance - I was specifically responding your Post# 14.
Like - From the Balcony I too was blown away with some of the ideas in this post.

Humor aside I agree with your last paragraph. For my wife sitting in a theology class would be like sitting in a class room with the Peanuts gang. All she’d hear from the teacher would be “waa waa waa”, and this is a woman who is an HR Director for a large international firm. I’ve asked her numerous times if the issue for her is one of not really wanting to understand or an inability to understand. She’s responded every time that theological discussions simply fly over her head. Sigh

As someone who’s done years of Sr. High Sunday School
teaching I believe it to be absolutely essential for a Christian to have a basic level of theological understanding. I believe we’ve achieved that basic level in our church be doing an exhaustive study of the Westminster Catechism. But I have to say the courses offered from this ministry are intriguing.

(btw I just came across this site for the first time today so I’m still soaking in all the possibilities)

]]> By: Vance http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2944 Vance Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:27:55 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2944 Ah, Michael K, you give the lie to your claim to "dullness" in your very post. You are merely impersonating joe six-pack! :) Seriously, though, I think about my grandmother, who is 83 now and does not know ecclesiology from epistemology and I don't really know that her spiritual life would be much improved by that enlightenment. I think we all should move forward toward the highest level of knowledge and understanding as we can (and have been advocating such study for years, so it is hard to even play devil's advocate here), but for some, that level will not be very far along. As a thought experiment, put your church congregation in your mental eye and let it wander over the various folks you know in the pew. Now, for each, ask yourself how they would react to the type of training involved in, say, seminary level courses. Many would respond wonderfully and should be encouraged to seek out programs like the Theology Program. Others would react better to solid teaching in an adult Sunday School class. Ah, Michael K, you give the lie to your claim to “dullness” in your very post. You are merely impersonating joe six-pack! :)
Seriously, though, I think about my grandmother, who is 83 now and does not know ecclesiology from epistemology and I don’t really know that her spiritual life would be much improved by that enlightenment. I think we all should move forward toward the highest level of knowledge and understanding as we can (and have been advocating such study for years, so it is hard to even play devil’s advocate here), but for some, that level will not be very far along.

As a thought experiment, put your church congregation in your mental eye and let it wander over the various folks you know in the pew. Now, for each, ask yourself how they would react to the type of training involved in, say, seminary level courses.

Many would respond wonderfully and should be encouraged to seek out programs like the Theology Program. Others would react better to solid teaching in an adult Sunday School class.

]]> By: From The Balcony http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2943 From The Balcony Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:17:53 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2943 Michael This blog post blew me away and brought out the deepest concerns of my heart for the church in our day and age. Thank you for expressing it so beautifully. Michael
This blog post blew me away and brought out the deepest concerns of my heart for the church in our day and age. Thank you for expressing it so beautifully.

]]> By: Michael K http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2942 Michael K Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:38:52 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2942 As one of the duller knives in the drawer I wanted to comment about the level of theological study Joe six-pack should be expected to comprehend as opposed to pastoral staff. While theological vocabulary may be a burden and escape me at times, the concepts and the exegesis used to formulate them are usually understood. I may ask a question or two for clarification but that's all it usually takes. For the believer, I'm convinced that the Holy Spirit is extremely active in expanding ones level of discernment; as needed. Subjects and ideas that were meaningless to me 5 years ago can now seem obviously apparent. Please keep in mind that the dullest knife in the drawer sometimes simply requires a little polishing. :-) As one of the duller knives in the drawer I wanted to comment about the level of theological study Joe six-pack should be expected to comprehend as opposed to pastoral staff.

While theological vocabulary may be a burden and escape me at times, the concepts and the exegesis used to formulate them are usually understood. I may ask a question or two for clarification but that’s all it usually takes. For the believer, I’m convinced that the Holy Spirit is extremely active in expanding ones level of discernment; as needed. Subjects and ideas that were meaningless to me 5 years ago can now seem obviously apparent.

Please keep in mind that the dullest knife in the drawer sometimes simply requires a little polishing. :-)

]]> By: Lisa R http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2941 Lisa R Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:44:21 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2941 Sorry Nick, I should have read your comments a little more carefully since you were talking about others and not yourself. I do encounter that as well and sometimes its just downright tough to convince a person that has put so much weight on experience that disciplined study has to be there as well. When I was really wrestling with the continuation of sign gifts, I wanted to hear the perspective of friend of mine who has an M.Div and serves on the pastoral staff at a pentacostal based church. I wanted to hear her exegesis but what I got was a discussion on experience. Go figure! I will also add to this mix, how important training is for discernment against distorted teaching. Jude tells us it creeps in unnoticed. And it will do so as long as the Joe six-pack in the pew is taught that it’s ok for him to just love God. There’s a whole lot of funny stuff mixed in with some truth but a little leaven leavens the whole lump. And being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine does not bring credibility to our faith or honors Christ. Just my 2 cents. Sorry Nick, I should have read your comments a little more carefully since you were talking about others and not yourself. I do encounter that as well and sometimes its just downright tough to convince a person that has put so much weight on experience that disciplined study has to be there as well. When I was really wrestling with the continuation of sign gifts, I wanted to hear the perspective of friend of mine who has an M.Div and serves on the pastoral staff at a pentacostal based church. I wanted to hear her exegesis but what I got was a discussion on experience. Go figure!

I will also add to this mix, how important training is for discernment against distorted teaching. Jude tells us it creeps in unnoticed. And it will do so as long as the Joe six-pack in the pew is taught that it’s ok for him to just love God. There’s a whole lot of funny stuff mixed in with some truth but a little leaven leavens the whole lump. And being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine does not bring credibility to our faith or honors Christ. Just my 2 cents.

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2920 C Michael Patton Fri, 07 Sep 2007 02:53:02 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2920 Well, such is the state of the religious way of thinking. I blame Kant. Well, such is the state of the religious way of thinking. I blame Kant.

]]> By: Joanie D http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2921 Joanie D Fri, 07 Sep 2007 02:34:29 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2921 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037HvQ1TyGM Michael, it AMAZES me when intelligent people choose to follow a guy like that and give him their wealth and complete loyalty. I feel sad for their families as well. Joanie D. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037HvQ1TyGM
Michael, it AMAZES me when intelligent people choose to follow a guy like that and give him their wealth and complete loyalty. I feel sad for their families as well.

Joanie D.

]]> By: Vance http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2940 Vance Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:46:58 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2940 Nick, I have a client for whom English is a second language and she is in the habit of mangling her metaphors, my favorite is "I am at the edge of my rope!". It has become such an inside joke around the office that we routinely create such mixes for our own amusement and now I am doing it automatically! I guess it gives some credence to our moms when they used to say "if you keep making that silly face, it is going to stick like that!" Nick, I have a client for whom English is a second language and she is in the habit of mangling her metaphors, my favorite is “I am at the edge of my rope!”. It has become such an inside joke around the office that we routinely create such mixes for our own amusement and now I am doing it automatically!

I guess it gives some credence to our moms when they used to say “if you keep making that silly face, it is going to stick like that!”

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2939 C Michael Patton Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:18:29 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2939 Josh, that last post was for you! Josh, that last post was for you!

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2938 C Michael Patton Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:17:25 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2938 The sources for the three year study were primary sources. You can get these through the internet. Clinton Arnold wrote a nice peice for this in JETS in 2004. I will ask him if I can send that out or post it soon. The sources for the three year study were primary sources. You can get these through the internet. Clinton Arnold wrote a nice peice for this in JETS in 2004. I will ask him if I can send that out or post it soon.

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2937 C Michael Patton Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:04:27 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2937 Vance, I would say that while there would be a greater responsibility among those who teach and lead, we need to re-examine the low bar that we have become too used to. I am sending my kids to school for 6 hours a day for nearly 20 years. If we value the knowledge that they are getting in school in such a way, why not make the theological knowledge at least meet this standard? Why to we allow for such ignorance in theology in the church? I think that a new Christian should go through an extensive three year program of discipleship. I think that children need to have a similar program. :) Vance, I would say that while there would be a greater responsibility among those who teach and lead, we need to re-examine the low bar that we have become too used to.

I am sending my kids to school for 6 hours a day for nearly 20 years. If we value the knowledge that they are getting in school in such a way, why not make the theological knowledge at least meet this standard? Why to we allow for such ignorance in theology in the church?

I think that a new Christian should go through an extensive three year program of discipleship. I think that children need to have a similar program.
:)

]]> By: Nick N. http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2936 Nick N. Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:25:18 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2936 <i>"brightest knife in the drawer"</i>... Now that's funny! Almost as funny as <i>"sharpest bulb in the circuit"</i> -- LOL :-P Mixed metaphors aside, I have to agree with Vance -- the clergy require more training than the laity (IMHO). “brightest knife in the drawer”… Now that’s funny!

Almost as funny as “sharpest bulb in the circuit” — LOL :-P
Mixed metaphors aside, I have to agree with Vance — the clergy require more training than the laity (IMHO).

]]> By: Mark Hunsaker http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2935 Mark Hunsaker Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:16:04 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2935 Michael, Great post. I'm nearing the time when I'll enter seminary though, and now you've got me a little scared! ;-) Seriously, I loved the post. I'm convinced that God is raising up servants in His kingdom along the very lines that you speak about here. Keep up the great work... Michael,

Great post. I’m nearing the time when I’ll enter seminary though, and now you’ve got me a little scared! ;-)
Seriously, I loved the post. I’m convinced that God is raising up servants in His kingdom along the very lines that you speak about here.

Keep up the great work…

]]> By: Lisa R http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2934 Lisa R Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:10:14 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2934 Joe six-pack in the pew...that's funny. I think we all have an obligation to study to show ourselves approved but I agree with you that it will vary. Joe six-pack in the pew…that’s funny.

I think we all have an obligation to study to show ourselves approved but I agree with you that it will vary.

]]> By: Vance http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2933 Vance Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:56:23 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2933 Hey, if I can find a proof-text, I am goin' for it! :) Seriously, though, let's keep in mind the degree of knowledge, study and understanding that would be required for various types of people. Those who are Church leaders and "teachers" (as one of the described gifts of the Spirit), and will thus be responsible for passing doctrine along, would there not be a higher degree of in-depth study involved? If you are joe six-pack in the pew, who (let's face it) is not the brightest knife in the drawer, but sincerely loves God, what level of theological study would be appropriate? *hint*, michael, here is where you plug the theology program . . .:) Hey, if I can find a proof-text, I am goin’ for it! :)
Seriously, though, let’s keep in mind the degree of knowledge, study and understanding that would be required for various types of people. Those who are Church leaders and “teachers” (as one of the described gifts of the Spirit), and will thus be responsible for passing doctrine along, would there not be a higher degree of in-depth study involved? If you are joe six-pack in the pew, who (let’s face it) is not the brightest knife in the drawer, but sincerely loves God, what level of theological study would be appropriate?

*hint*, michael, here is where you plug the theology program . . .:)

]]> By: Lisa R http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/09/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2932 Lisa R Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:02:38 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/09/06/the-evangelical-epidemic-of-theological-accountability-and-discipline/#comment-2932 Nick, I understand your dilemma well. Like you, I was of the mind that our Christian experience was summed up in experiencing God and that academic, systematic study was non-spiritual. However, I would like for you to consider one word, which the greek word Epignosis. A few places this is used is Eph 1:17, 4:13; Col 1:9,10; II Pet 1:2,3 and II Pet 3:18. (There are more and I’m sure the bible scholars can chime in). The english word is knowledge but epignosis is different from gnosis also translated as knowledge, which is a theoretical understanding. Epignosis, however, is an experiential knowledge that has a foundation in gnosis. Take skiing for example. In order to ski you have to actually get out there and do it. But it is not a haphazard activity because it should be built on the foundation of basic principles, a theoretical framework of “how to ski”. And safety concerns should make the foundation more solid to include “how to ski properly and safely”. So in other words, the experience is supported by the knowledge. And the partnership of learning and doing work in concert for us to have the full benefit of skiing. I contend it is the same way with our spiritual walk. Paul exhorts us to have an epignosis of our Lord. But is that not supported by the knowledge of who God is and who we are in Him? And this does require a disciplined and systematic approach to scripture, understanding scriptures in context and relative to what the whole of the bible says about a particular topic. Otherwise, what is the foundation for our experience? Nick,

I understand your dilemma well. Like you, I was of the mind that our Christian experience was summed up in experiencing God and that academic, systematic study was non-spiritual.

However, I would like for you to consider one word, which the greek word Epignosis. A few places this is used is Eph 1:17, 4:13; Col 1:9,10; II Pet 1:2,3 and II Pet 3:18. (There are more and I’m sure the bible scholars can chime in). The english word is knowledge but epignosis is different from gnosis also translated as knowledge, which is a theoretical understanding. Epignosis, however, is an experiential knowledge that has a foundation in gnosis. Take skiing for example. In order to ski you have to actually get out there and do it. But it is not a haphazard activity because it should be built on the foundation of basic principles, a theoretical framework of “how to ski”. And safety concerns should make the foundation more solid to include “how to ski properly and safely”. So in other words, the experience is supported by the knowledge. And the partnership of learning and doing work in concert for us to have the full benefit of skiing.

I contend it is the same way with our spiritual walk. Paul exhorts us to have an epignosis of our Lord. But is that not supported by the knowledge of who God is and who we are in Him? And this does require a disciplined and systematic approach to scripture, understanding scriptures in context and relative to what the whole of the bible says about a particular topic. Otherwise, what is the foundation for our experience?

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