Vhttp://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Philippians+2

but do not stop there go to Proverbs, fear is the beginning of wisdom, yet wisdom is the #1 thing to get.

What if someone who is a believer suffers for wrong doing does it fit Hebrews 12 and mastigoo. You do not whip a law keeper, but a law breaker. And since 1 John 1:8 makes it clear that we all sin, then Philippians is spot on.

Beyond that Hebrews 12 also speaks of persecution.

Then there is Philippians 2:13, which follows on the heals of the fear passage. It is one of the clearest sovereignty passages. It is he who wills in us both the willingness and the power to carry it out for his purpose. Yet this does not stand alone. Galatians 5:17; For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. The word want is thelo, to will. Which dovetails perfectly with Romans 7 culminating in why we have assurance. Perserverence is not passive. Like all of salvation it is a monergistic work in which we are active. I describe it as passive/participation because what he wills we will do. That is the essence of faith and the knowledge of the One who carries out all things according to his own council. In the end there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ, because there is no one who can bring a charge against God’s anointed.

Back to Saul- I do not know what God’s disposition of the soul of Saul was, but David would not bring a charge against him and rebuked those who touched God’s anointed. The anointed in Isaiah, is first Christ, but he is the firstfruit and we are the anointed ones of God, the firstfruits.

The true appreciation of the Deity must begin with fear. At his appearance the flesh falls face down, undone. But, to those like Isaiah who God calls, he sends forth the cherubim, which can mean flaming sword, and cleanses them of all unrighteousness so that even though the body remains dead because of tresspasses the spirit is made alive. It is the cleansing of the Lord that makes us to stand even in our weaknesses. As long as we exist in the flesh we will be subject to the wrath of God against our sins. Not to the judgement of wrath that is to condemnation, but to put to death the sin remaining in us. Beyond that, there is God’s awesomeness. He being the Almighty who gives breath to life and takes it back, it is to him we must turn and bow, knowing that he is able to destroy both the body and the soul in hell. He in us, is both our trembling and our comfort, for he has sworn, and because he cannot lie, we have his Word, that he will never leave us nor forsake us, even if we sin, for we have an advocate with the Father who intercedes on our behalf, for ever a priest. This perserverence then is our sanctification progressively according for each man according to God’s purpose to transform them into the likeness of God’s own Son, in is in the end to our glorification, no matter where we might be lead by his Spirit. And, yes, though I walk through the valley of death…God prepares a table for me….my sins are ever before me…but you have tried me….now destroy my enemies…. One of the things that we hear from Jesus’ lips to Peter is “What is that to you?” This was in response to Pete’s question of the disposition of John. Later we find this same Peter denying the Lord’s grace again, Galatians.

The righteous perish and no man considers it. Being a Christian is to acknowledge that as Saul, God can do with you as he pleases. Remember he was the anointed of God and what befell him was at God’s bidding, for it was God who was working in him both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Pray therefore that God would grant you a life of peace and understanding what the will of the Lord means.

I’ll be very candid. I want to retain “P”. I’m first and foremost a Christian. So I’m not beholden or wedded to being a 5-Pointer. But I really like the “cleanness” or “elegant truthfulness” of TULIP…. except for the empirical difficulties of “P”.

You know the well-worn phrase by Paul about working out your salvation with fear and trembling. And how it needs to be translated and understood properly.

I fully agree with you when you write: “Serves as an example to me of what not to do, and what attitudes I should not have in obeying (or not obeying) commands from the Lord.”

Yet this statement also seems to me that you are not experiencing the peace of mind that’s supposed to come from “P” and the felt reassurance of “eternal security”.

I thought “P” was supposed to reassure those fretting, nail-biting Christians that they are truly saved, once and for all!!!

Yup, I’m still tracking this thread.

The Scriptures to say that God changed Saul’s inmost being (or “God turned for him another heart”). I do find it interesting that at the end of Saul’s life, God had stopped listening to him. In fact, the Bible says that the Lord’s Spirit had come out of Saul and an evil spirit was there tormenting him. In 1 Sam 18, it says than an evil spirit rushed upon Saul and he prophesied by trying to kill David with a spear.

I’m finding it difficult to believe one way or another on the status of Saul’s salvation. O.T. salvation was still by God’s grace, as in the N.T. It seems like the O.T. saints weren’t indwelt by the Spirit as N.T. believers are; it also seems like God’s grace and favor was administered through obedience to the Law, not merely going through the actions of the Law, but with a contrite and humble heart, obeying the commands of the Lord.

Stark disobedience to the Law and to God’s commands would bring judgment. With Adam, his disobedience to God’s clear command brought about the judgment of death. With Saul, his disobedience brought about God’s judgment. Look at 1 Sam 12:15. The covenant was there: If the people and the king obey the Lord in what he says, they will do well. If the people and the king disobey the Lord in what he says, rebelling against the Lord, his hand will be against both the people and the king. Then look at Samuel’s discourse in 12:20-25. The Lord’s favor comes upon anyone who serves him with all their heart. Saul did not serve the Lord with all his heart, so judgment came upon him and Israel. (Look also at 1 Chron 10:13-14.)

If this man was saved, then God sure dealt with him harshly. Serves as an example to me of what not to do, and what attitudes I should not have in obeying (or not obeying) commands from the Lord.

Dear Enterprise24 (if you are still tracking this thread),

I have thought a lot about your “disciplining until death” remark as a way to still retain “P” within the TULIP framework. I hope that that is true.

In my quiet time and re-reading Samuel’s account of Saul… the Holy Spirit did come upon Saul in the beginning. Saul was elected by God to serve as king, even though having a king was not what God recommended.

But Saul did not end well. I hope Saul is a case, an exemplar of being disciplined until death, but still a member of the elect.

Thanks for dialoguing with me. Pax.

P.S. It would have been helpful if the blog owner, CMP, had the time to address my hypothetical in comment #95.

It is not satire at all. It is a testimony about my first exposure to unconditional election (not so much Calvinism).

“The Day I Became and Unconditional Electionist” did not sound to interesting. So I just used Calvinist. It does however show that this day was the day I began to move toward Calvinism.

It might just be that i have settled these issues to the point of my own satisfaction, which is such that it enables me to effectively minister. Beyond that, it is foolishness (Deuteronomy 29:29) to try to make God’s infinite wisdom ans sovereignty fit into a system devised by out finite and depraved minds.

Becoming a Calvinist does classify as a tragedy.