Pauline Scatology
No, it’s not a misprint. I meant Pauline scatology. Pauline eschatology—a topic that everyone assumes a Dallas Seminary prof could wax eloquent on—has to do with Paul’s view of the future, of prophecy, of end times. Pauline scatology has to do with Paul’s use of salty language, the kind of language that turns the air blue, four-letter words. We know that James and John were not averse to using this sort of language. Jesus nicknamed them the ‘sons of thunder.’ They were volatile, hotheaded, reactionary, and they could cuss like a sailor. After all, they were fishermen! So was Peter. His language was strongest when he denied the Lord.
But Paul was different from these other apostles. He used strong language too, but most often when he was affirming the Lord. Although Paul could instruct the churches in Asia Minor, “there should not be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting†among Christians (Eph 5.4), he either thought that what he did on occasion did not fall under such proscriptions or that there were times in which it was acceptable to violate his own instructions.
So, what did Paul say that would qualify as colorful speech? I’ll give three or four illustrations. In Galatians 1.8, he says that if anyone preaches a false gospel, “let him be anathema!†This is often translated, “Let him go to hell!†But just to make sure that his readers didn’t miss the point, Paul says it again in v. 9. He even includes angels in his curse. Paul obviously was ticked at the Galatians for being duped with a gospel that did not find its origin in Christ.
In Philippians 3.2-3, he says, “Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! For we are the circumcision, the ones who worship by the Spirit of God, exult in Christ Jesus, and do not rely on human credentials….†(NET). Not only does he call his enemies ‘dogs’ (a word that was much more derogatory in the ancient world than it is today), he also speaks of them as those who mutilate the flesh. In v. 4 he says, “we are the [true] circumcision,†distinguishing his message from that of his opponents. In Greek, there is a word-play between ‘those who mutilate the flesh’ and ‘circumcision.’ The Greek is katatome (‘mutilation’) and peritome (‘circumcision’). Tome (tow-may) means ‘cutting,’ and peri means ‘around.’ Thus, etymologically, circumcision is a cutting around the penis to get rid of the foreskin. Kata means ‘down’; katatome is a rare word that, etymologically, had the force of ‘cutting down,’ ‘cutting off.’ When Paul speaks of the mutilation he really means that these folks botch the job and whack off precious body parts! In Galatians 5.12, he urges his opponents to castrate themselves. The meaning is not meant to be taken literally, but it is meant to show how ticked off Paul was at a false gospel. By contrast, in Philippians 3, he doesn’t urge his opponents to do this; rather, he says that they already have been mutilating the job of circumcision. The meaning again is not literal, but suggests that Paul thought of his opponents as those who hacked up the gospel with their works-righteousness.
It is in this context that Paul contrasts his own former life as a Pharisee with his present life in Christ. In Philippians 3.8, he declares, “More than that, I now regard all things as liabilities compared to the far greater value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things—indeed, I regard them as dung!—that I may gain Christ†(NET). Many modern translations have ‘rubbish’ (e.g., ESV, NRSV, NKJV, NIV, NAB, REB), or ‘garbage’ (TEV, NJB, TNIV), instead of ‘dung’ here. But the Greek word has strong overtones of slang, and it would have had a certain shock value to the readers. In Greek literature, it is stronger than ‘crap.’ Let’s just leave it at that. Although it often had a metaphorical meaning of ‘garbage’ (much like ‘crap,’ etc. do today), in this context it is particularly fitting to see it as having to do with human fecal matter. The argument that Paul has given thus far shows that the ‘flesh’ is not able to produce anything of lasting value before God. In v. 3 Paul said, “we do not rely on the fleshâ€; in v. 4 he says, “I have good reason to rely on the flesh [if anyone did].†And, as we saw, in vv. 2-3, he spoke metaphorically of the flesh when he spoke of the mutilation and the circumcision. Paul’s fundamental point is summed up in v. 7 when he says, “Whatever things were gain to me—these things I have come to regard as loss for the sake of Christ.†He underscores this even further in v. 8, with an emphatic statement that not only his life as a Pharisee was worthless, it was worse than worthless. Skubala (the word for ‘dung’) emphasizes this pointedly, shockingly, and accurately: human fecal matter is worse than worthless. It’s not even any good for fertilizer for it produces disease. It can only stink up the place. And this is what the flesh produces. To translate skubala as ‘rubbish’ or ‘garbage’ misses the point, since garbage is not a product of the flesh. Dung is.
Obviously, I have been euphemistic in my descriptions of Paul’s scatological language, for the sake of readers who cannot handle the full discussion. But you can use your imagination. Yet I need to point out one important principle: Paul did not use such colorful language gratuitously. He had a purpose in mind, and he was ticked off because of the dung produced by the enemies of the gospel. In these contexts, Paul only used such language when the purity of the gospel was at stake. Like General Patton (not Michael, even though he thinks of himself as a general), he gave it to them ‘loud and dirty… that way they’ll remember it!’ And he came to the conviction that his own life apart from Christ was a foul stench that had no real value.
When do we think it is appropriate to use this sort of language? Never? Always? Only when we’re angry about our own rights? What principles can we draw from Paul’s letters that might be able to guide us? How do these texts fit in with his injunction in Ephesians 5.4? And, most importantly, how do we regard our life before we met Christ?
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- Pauline Scatology
- Did Christ have a Physical Body?
- In What Sense Are Jesus and the Father One? Part III: One in Purpose? Calvin’s View
- In What Sense Are Jesus and the Father One? Part III: One in Purpose? B: The Father Is Greater than All
- Paul and Justification by Faith
C Michael Patton on 25 Sep 2007 at 1:02 am #
So, Dan, how would you translate hagia skubala? BTW: I will reserve that blog name on Wordpress for you
hagiaskubala.wordpress.com
Dan Wallace on 25 Sep 2007 at 1:47 am #
You’re just trying to get me in trouble, aren’t you General Patton?
Sean on 25 Sep 2007 at 1:51 am #
OTOH some people get entirely too excited when they discover the real meaning of the vocabulary in these passages.
1st linky for a good laugh: http://tinyurl.com/2cc6cz
Then the main page for some more:
http://www.spurgeon.org/%7Ephil/posters.htm
Although at this point I think they’re starting to move beyond fun to nastiness.
Pauline Scatology: the Dirty Words of Paul « Seminarian on 25 Sep 2007 at 1:57 am #
[...] had some of the same thoughts that I did when I read the title of Dan Wallace’s new post at Parchment and Pen. As a professor at Dallas Seminary and the author of the textbook I’m currently using, it [...]
Lisa R on 25 Sep 2007 at 5:34 am #
Jesus got angry and turned over the money tables. Paul is sarcastic, too (I Cor 4:10). I think it is the motive behind the language. Is it used because it’s a regular part of vocabulary or is it driven by a passion to defend what’s precious and disprove that which contradicts? There have been occassion where I have thought the words “fool” and “idiot” when confronted with a christian who has misinterpreted some passage of scripture and when I have walked that person through scriptures that clearly demonstrate that their conclusion cannot be the case, and sometimes more than once, they are still determined to believe what they want to believe. I would feel bad for thinking that about a brother or sister, too.
Lisa R on 25 Sep 2007 at 6:21 am #
Also, look at how Jesus was to the Pharisees. He called them hyprocrites and a brood of vipers and like whitewashed tombs….Ouch. He might as well have used a four letter word. But then there’s only so far you can infringe on our fundamentalistic sensibilities before we cry “foul”.
stevemoore on 25 Sep 2007 at 6:26 am #
Dr Wallace,
You asked when/if it is appropriate for us to use this language. I think this is a difficult question, since we have a few descriptive examples but the only prescription we have seems to counter them - as you noted.
The specifics of the issue aside, in general how is the reader supposed to determine when an author prescribes one set of behavior, but appears to do something different?
-it’s ok, they were apostles/inspired authors?
-it really isnt a conflict?
-we can go for it, any time, any place
-other options?
For this case, I think it would be fair (but maybe not accurate!) to say that general use of coarse language isn’t appropriate from Paul’s prescription. I think there are times and places when it would be though - defending the gospel perhaps, as you noted. But once we determine if it is ok, we also must determine what that really should look like and not look like dont we? Are all words and phrases in the clear, or are only some of them ok for selective use?
I think it might be hard to nail down any specific principles with what little we’re given. Am I being too cautious about overstating things?
Clearly though, when I hit my thumb with a hammer it is ok. Isnt it? ;^) (Was that out loud?)
-steve
Vance on 25 Sep 2007 at 10:52 am #
I think we have to look for consistency in Paul’s words whenever possible (and I agree it is not always possible!). He says not to use “vulgar” and “course” language, then he goes right ahead and uses what we would consider just that on occasion. How can these be reconciled? A “do as I say, not as I do” approach? Or, is he saying that it should not be part of our normal vocabulary, but that the words themselves are not the problem, just the intent, etc?
One thing I have always considered is whether the words are just the natural expression I would use or whether they are calculated for a particular effect. I think that if I found myself using vulgar language as a matter of course, just my natural way of talking, it would worry me. If I choose to use it for a particular effect in a given setting and it is intentional and purposeful, that is very different.
Of course, we have that whole “stumbling-block” stuff that has to be part of every such conversation.
A Linking Day « εν εφÎσω: Thoughts and Meditations on 25 Sep 2007 at 11:01 am #
[...] Dan Wallace: Contra Mundane -Â Pauline Scatology [...]
Steve Moore on 25 Sep 2007 at 11:52 am #
Vance,
I would basically agree and echo your sentiments. That’s the same line I was taking up above.
One interesting question, since clearly this issue is a stumbling block for some. Why then would it be allowed by Paul? Was it not an issue back then but it is now? Are their people who are somehow not offended if Paul swears, but if I do? … even if it is with the same motive, intent, word selection, and same general situation?
I do think we need to be sensitive to our audience and wise in our choice of language. But I think the whole point that Paul was making by his choice of words was to absolutely offend/smack in the face those to whom he was correcting. My guess is that he intended for what he said to be offensive, to try and shake these people out of their bewitchment. and wake them up to the seriousness of their errors.
-steve
Enterprise24 on 25 Sep 2007 at 12:28 pm #
Perhaps we can consider another possibility…that Paul lost his temper? Consider Acts 23:1-5.
“23:1 Paul looked directly at the council and said, “Brothers, I have lived my life with a clear conscience before God to this day.†23:2 At that the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. 23:3 Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Do you sit there judging me according to the law, and in violation of the law you order me to be struck?†23:4 Those standing near him said, “Do you dare insult God’s high priest?†23:5 Paul replied, “I did not realize, brothers, that he was the high priest, for it is written, ‘You must not speak evil about a ruler of your people.’—
Among other things, I suggest that Paul, having bad eye sight, didn’t know who had ordered him to be struck - he didn’t recognize the high priest. Paul was not stupid - he knew who the high priest was, and most assuredly, wouldn’t curse at him. However, Paul said he didn’t recognize the high priest. What is going on here? I suggest that in this instance, Paul, in his bad eye sight, with him not knowing precisely who was there or who said what, lost his temper for a moment and cursed the person who ordered him struck. That person happened to be the high priest, and when he found out, apologized for stepping out of line.
Paul was not sinless; he messed up too, even after being saved by Christ. Perhaps the examples in his letters of cursing are part of his personality, part of how he operates. Paul is an excitable person, so I wouldn’t be surprised, if in moments of heat, he used vulgar language. I don’t think he taught the churches that it was necessarily OK to use vulgar language. It seems to me that he used vulgar language on occasion because he was a human being, like the rest of us, he used off-color language at times because he couldn’t think of any other way to express himself.
Our Lord also used very strong language. If he wasn’t sinning in the use of those words and in the motive behind using those words, then when we match Christ’s motives, we won’t be sinning. However, I don’t see any actual passage that teaches us to use vulgar language in such-and-such a circumstance. All we have, really, are stories of other people using vulgar language, and Paul himself writing with vulgar language. Does Scripture teach us to use that sort of language? I would say no, it doesn’t. But, are there examples of godly people using vulgar language? Yes, there is. So here’s how I conclude this matter: if there isn’t any real teaching, and Paul himself said not to use vulgar language (even though he used it himself), then its probably safer to refrain from using that sort of language, although its not necessarily sinful if it is used in certain circumstances.
Lisa R on 25 Sep 2007 at 1:50 pm #
Enterprise, consider Paul’s struggle in Romans 7. Perhaps one of his issues was with a loss of temper.
I’m also considering this passage (aghhh…no bible and I can’t remember where it is): Be angry and sin not. Considering the references made above to righteous indignation, could that provide support? Not that we would ever be instructed to use vulgar language but there may be cases where it is warranted.
Enterprise24 on 25 Sep 2007 at 2:01 pm #
Lisa R,
You’re thinking Ephesians 4:
“Therefore, having laid aside falsehood, each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 4:26 Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on the cause of your anger. 4:27 Do not give the devil an opportunity. 4:28 The one who steals must steal no longer; rather he must labor, doing good with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with the one who has need. 4:29 You must let no unwholesome word come out of your mouth, but only what is beneficial for the building up of the one in need, that it may give grace to those who hear. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 4:31 You must put away every kind of bitterness, anger, wrath, quarreling, and evil, slanderous talk. 4:32 Instead, be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you.”
Lisa R on 25 Sep 2007 at 2:06 pm #
Thanks. I thought it was but then it was bugging me and I just looked it up on Biblegateway. I had a brain freeze…too much multi-tasking
Dan Wallace on 25 Sep 2007 at 2:34 pm #
This is a lot of fun seeing all of you wrestle with this. I’m not so sure that there’s one answer that fits all situations as to when we should use vulgar language. This means that we’re probably dealing with a gray area in which one person’s answer is fine for him or her but not for another. I tend to see that what Paul is referring to in Eph 5 are gratuitous vulgarities. But he had a serious theological point to make in Philippians, so it would be outside the scope of his injunction.
On the thought that Paul could lose his temper, this is true enough. Especially when it concerned the gospel. But I would take what’s going on in the letters as different from Acts 23. Romans 7 might not help much because there is a great deal of debate as to who and when Paul is talking about.
If there is any place in the letters in which Paul could be charged with losing it, Galatians fits the bill. The language reveals that he is distraught. It’s filled with emotion. Or, as A. T. Robertson once said, in this letter we see Paul’s “vehemence of spirit” coming through in the grammatical solecisms all the time.
But Philippians is different. That’s a letter that, although it sternly addresses his opponents, is more carefully crafted. It was done when Paul was in prison in Rome, and its focus is on thanksgiving for the Philippians. The opponents are a sidelight. The language doesn’t seem to be overly tortured at all. It’s good koine Greek. I take it that here Paul is intentionally using shock value on his readers to get them to come to grips with the importance of Christ.
A similar tactic has been used in seminary and Bible college chapels, not to mention churches, for some time. An old apocryphal story that has been attributed to many different speakers (I’d be grateful for any eyewitness testimony on this one!) is this: A guest speaker uses “S***” in his opening remarks, but he does so as a pretty accurate translation of Phil 3.8. Then, he pauses for a moment and says, “Most of you are more concerned that I used a four-letter word than you are about your life in Christ.” Something to that effect.
Joanie D on 25 Sep 2007 at 5:21 pm #
Enterprise24 wrote in #11, “…if there isn’t any real teaching, and Paul himself said not to use vulgar language (even though he used it himself), then its probably safer to refrain from using that sort of language, although its not necessarily sinful if it is used in certain circumstances.”
I like that.
Joanie D.
M. Jay Bennett on 25 Sep 2007 at 10:42 pm #
I always like to raise this issue whenever I’m accused of being insensitive in argumentation.
C Michael Patton on 25 Sep 2007 at 11:43 pm #
Dan, I am pretty sure that it is Tony Campolo who said that.
According to a profile in Christianity Today entitled “The Positive Prophet,” Campolo would often begin a speech this way: “I have three things I’d like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don’t give a shit. What’s worse is that you’re more upset with the fact that I said shit than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
Source
Dan Wallace on 26 Sep 2007 at 12:34 am #
Michael, you’re the second person to confirm that for me. I think you’re right: Campolo has been using that shock-device in his messages for a long time.
Oh σκá½»βαλα – sanitising the Bible » Metacatholic on 26 Sep 2007 at 4:01 am #
[...] Wallace, on Parchment and Pen has an interesting post on Pauline Scatology, in which he can’t quite bring himself to say [...]
David Graves on 26 Sep 2007 at 4:27 am #
One option is that what we consider vulgar Paul did not. I don’t say this to justify a broadening of acceptable speech, but rather as an illustration of a linguistic shift in languages. For instance if you look at the speech of late 18th Century and early 19th Century Brits it was much more colorful than what was acceptable during and after the Victorian era.
A family member tells of his relatives who are Mennonites who use words like shit for dung and for the crusties in their eyes, and it has none of the vulgarity, which I attach to the word. So there is the issue of community standards for a word…I say this as a reminder that just because we think something is dirty word does not mean that a foreign linguistic community does.
Biblical Scatology « Heat and Light on 26 Sep 2007 at 8:34 am #
[...] 26, 2007 in Bloggers, Doctrine, John Piper, Theology Be sure not to miss Dan Wallace’s excellent blog on Scatology. Refreshing, [...]
Mason on 26 Sep 2007 at 10:29 am #
It seems Grudem would take issue with some of these things you are teaching…
Bennett on 26 Sep 2007 at 11:47 am #
I have a secret theory that I’m not sure about. What are the chances that Paul’s admonition “I don’t allow women to teach” was a joke between him and Timothy. “They earn their salvation through childbirthing.” I mean, I laughed the first time I heard it. But then again, I suppose it is dangerous to assume anything in the Bible is a joke. I’ve never heard another explanation of this passage that satisfied me.
Matt Reimer on 26 Sep 2007 at 12:39 pm #
I would argue that it is not profane or vulgar for Paul to say “anathema” the way he did because he is not diluting (profaning) the true meaning of the word but using it with its proper meaning, context, and gravity. That is the fitting consequence of rejecting the gospel–damnation. But to say, “damn it!” when I smash my thumb with a hammer trivializes damnation.
Similarly with skubula. What is more repulsive–excrement, or to prefer (count as gain) anything to God? His language gropes to describe the hideousness of such a choice, but even skubula falls short of depicting the reality.
Matt
jntowers on 26 Sep 2007 at 1:08 pm #
Shock effect seems to make the most sense to me, whether emotionally charged or not. As in those examples, audiences need to be shaken up sometimes to really get a point across. If we go with the idea that the motive or intent is the key, then I could maybe reconcile Paul condemning vulgar words in one place while using them in other…??
Most “bad” words are so subjective in their effect, anyway, (is there really any difference in the words “poop” or “sh%t” when said after you hit your thumb with a hammer? besides just feeling a need to be sensitive to those around you?), I tend to put them in the category of 1 Cor. 8 (eating food sacrificed to idols) - the idea that’s already been commented on about being a stumbling block, etc.
We need (maybe already have?) a scatalogical biblical commentary - could really add some spice to some already good stuff!
CharlesM on 26 Sep 2007 at 1:55 pm #
I would have to say that there are a lot of people who would be very disappointed in me if I said “sh#t” audibly.
While the lexical meaning of “poop” and “sh#t” are the same there is a great deal of difference in the semantic effect. If someone says “sh#t” he/she is intending to display something. It may be that the individual is attempting to display anger or perhaps trying to display an “uninhibited manner”, as might be expected among a group of teens.
Either way there is a certain semantic markedness associated with certain words - like “sh#t”. The listerner recognizes this when he/she hears them. The “vulgarity” of the words is certainly well known - and this will be contextualized by those who hear them - and the whole utterance will be seen in that light. And I think that light might be more irreverence than anger. Certainly in SPOKEN speech it is possible to convey anger without using verbage that others might find offensive - and as such I don’t think these words have much of a place in our mouths.
But the Campolo quote is a good example of good perspective.
This reminds me of my days in catholic high school when we would get a kick out of saying things like, “edi stercus et moriere!”. Hah!
Matt on 26 Sep 2007 at 3:17 pm #
Dan,
Now you know why Luther uses so much scatological language towards the Pope (and Rome). It’s interesting to compare that speech to his rhetoric aimed at Erasmus. Quite different, I think, and possibly even instructive for us in our disagreements.
I’ve always taken those texts exactly like you argue — Paul seems to reserve such language for enemies of the Gospel!! If anything, it demonstrates the severity of the stakes.
I’ve always seen Phil. 1:15ff. as filling out the context of Phil 3. — namely, for Paul, what counts most is the *truthfulness* of Christ preached. It’s not that motives are unimportant…but (for Paul) it’s worse to preach the wrong Gospel with right motives, than the right Gospel with wrong motives. At issue is the content of the Gospel!
I’ve wondered too about using such language in the pulpit for rhetorical effect. I think if we weren’t so influenced by our fundamentalist baggage, we could pull it off. But unfortunately, I think dropping an ‘S’ bomb at the beginning of your sermon on Phil. 3 could so startle people….that they won’t hear anything else you have to say. It reminds me of that clip that went around a few years ago — a minister was preaching on Abraham and attempted to say, “And Abraham pitched his tent,” but what came out was, “Abraham pinched his tits.” Unfortunately, people just don’t have the attention span to get over that kind of language — I wonder if anyone really heard anything in that guy’s message after that!
BTW, the same sort of discussion comes up in the OT — ground I’m a little more familiar with — in Judges 19 and the rape of the Levite’s concumbine. Vs. 26 — And they knew (yada) her and abused (’alal) her. Most everyone recognizes yada’s sexual usage….but the extremely rare hitpael verb that follows seems to suggest something more. Hence, translations often use something like ‘raped’ or ‘abused’! There was a JSOT article a number of years ago that suggested the word might well have sounded more like, ‘f****ed’! An intriguing proposal, though perhaps not as convincing at Paul’s use of ’skubala’!
Enjoy reading your blog. Peace!
Dan Wallace on 26 Sep 2007 at 10:31 pm #
Very perceptive comments. Thanks, folks. This is good interaction. As for Luther, I like his street talk. But I don’t think he used it exclusively for opponents of his gospel. Some of his saltiest language is found in Table Talk. One of his students once asked him in all seriousness, “Dr. Luther, how do you get rid of the devil?” To this Luther responded, “Oh, I just send him away with a fart!” The man knew how to joke with the best of them, and he used memorable language to do it. Luther did not speak with a stained-glass voice. For a variety of reasons (his language being one of them), Luther is one of my favorite personalities in the history of the church.
I think perhaps we do need to think a bit more about using somewhat colorful speech. In the least, we wouldn’t be boring! And we may connect with people a bit better because we would be seen as real. My sense is that generation Xers and beyond don’t have nearly the trouble with four-letter words that us old fogies do. Is this due in part to the postmodern emphasis on authenticity?
Finally, for a master’s thesis title for anyone who’s in seminary: “Paul’s Use of Dung in his Letter to the Philippians.” Maybe ‘dung should be in quotes…
Whitney on 27 Sep 2007 at 10:31 am #
I think the proper use of such language is entirely appropriate, though not always advisable.
After all, men are depraved - we really are such cuss words before God. The Bible isn’t nice language, but speaks truth.
Aaron Smith on 27 Sep 2007 at 6:37 pm #
My scattered thoughts:
Eph 4.25-5.21 seems as a whole to be pointing us away from the things that drive us apart and toward living as the unified people of Christ. In that context, I don’t think Paul is saying “Don’t cuss.” Rather, I hear him calling the body to use its words and actions to imitate god and to live in love with each other as Christ has loved us.
So, words that some might find low brow or course can (and should) be used as one of the many tools of language for the sole purpose of calling people to the truth of the gospel and binding us to one another.
Also, Andrew Jones did a great post on Offensive language that is relevant to this discussion. http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/tallskinnykiwi/2007/06/offensive_langu.html
Dan Wallace on 27 Sep 2007 at 8:04 pm #
I just read Andrew Jones’ blog. Wow! That has a lot of great insights. Thanks for mentioning the link, Aaron. And to think, Andrew’s my cousin… (Too bad I can’t claim any blood relation, though; he married my wife’s cousin, so we’re hardly from the same planet.)
drew@jonah on 28 Sep 2007 at 4:02 pm #
I really have enjoyed this article and found a lot of great insight. One observation. For the Campolo example to work, wouldn’t one have to agree that social justice issues are equal in importance to doctrinal proclamation?
I think it would fit the context Dr. Wallace lays out better if it went something like this:
Fake Tony Campolo: “I have three things I’d like to say today. First, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been perverted, marginalized and watered-down in our society. Second, most of you don’t give a &%*@. What’s worse is that you’re more upset with the fact that I said shit than the fact that the Gospel has been treated like that.”
I am not trying to turn the convo to social justice issues or Tony Campolo, but that seems to fit the premise better to me. Any thoughts?
-d
Aaron Shafovaloff on 30 Sep 2007 at 2:17 pm #
There’s a good book on this subject by Douglas Wilson called, “A Serrated Edge: A Brief Defense of Biblical Satire and Trinitarian Skylarking”. I recommend it!
http://www.amazon.com/Serrated-Edge-Biblical-Trinitarian-Skylarking/dp/1591280109
Rob Reid on 30 Sep 2007 at 3:06 pm #
I have a new and profound respect for Campolo suddenly. And if social justice “issues” (as though they could be bifurcated from “doctrine”) are not as important as so-called doctrine, then “doctrine” as such has no content. Praxis and cognitive premises (or as some say “propositional truth”), from a biblical perspective, probably cannot be separated (Cf. James[!]).
the evangelical outpost on 30 Sep 2007 at 11:55 pm #
Thirty Three Things (v. 32)
1. Is There Sex in Heaven? Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft says “yes.” (HT: CounterCulture) °°°°°° 2. The 4 Boneheaded Biases of Stupid Voters °°°°°° 3. Dan Wallace on Pauline Scatology °°°…
Carrie Hunter on 01 Oct 2007 at 7:35 am #
Not really commenting, just saying hiya Dan.
drew@jonah on 01 Oct 2007 at 3:52 pm #
Rob,
Let me attempt to clarify.
The examples Dr. Wallace gave from Paul were specifically tied to the Gospel. Not ‘doctrine’ in general as you seem to want to read it. I agree that right belief cannot be separated from right action. But that was not my point.
The action of feeding starving children should be a natural out-working of our lives as Christians, but it is not the means of Salvation. Paul in Philippians 3:8 regards all things (these very things included) as *dung* without knowing Christ.
I hope that helps clarify what I said earlier.
-d
Dan Wallace on 01 Oct 2007 at 4:49 pm #
Hey, Carrie! Glad to see you’re still alive!
Dan Wallace on 09 Oct 2007 at 3:48 pm #
Friends, I’ve written a diachronic word study on skubala in Phil 3.8. Some of you have wondered whether that really simply means garbage or rubbish. There are ways to examine the data. The word study is posted on bible.org. Here’s the link:
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=5318
Denise on 16 Oct 2007 at 10:27 am #
“We know that James and John were not averse to using this sort of language. Jesus nicknamed them the ‘sons of thunder.’ They were volatile, hotheaded, reactionary, and they could cuss like a sailor. After all, they were fishermen!” –Wallace
How do you “know” this? James and John cussed because they were called by God “Sons of Thunder” and were fishermen? Where is your Scripture for this?
Being given a NEW name by the Master, “Sons of Thunder,” does not necessitate their language use at all. Nor does being a fisherman. Using your reasoning, Peter would alsso have used foul language, but again we have no idication of that. I’m not sure why you use those as reasons for something that isn’t in Scripture…seems to presume upon the text, don’t you think?
Don’t forget that as new creations, the Master Creator changes us and bears fruit in our lives. This is certainly true in John and James’ lives (as well as Paul’s and Peter’s) as we see them years later in their letters, the transformation the Spirit of God made in them.
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
bethyada on 18 Oct 2007 at 6:11 am #
Bit late to the game, but have read most of the comments. Unless I missed it, I think focusing on words is missing the point. It is not whether the word “s%#t” is a filthy word, rather what is filthy speech. You mention Ephesians 5:
Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
Is this not speaking about context? I think one can tell abhorrent stories that should not be spoken without mentioning a single coarse word.
Using a taboo word in context is of far less importance than describing a homosexual tryst in excessive detail with anatomically correct terms.
However people may choose to curb their speech for the sensibilities of others, and I can envisage others using swear words unnecessarily because of their new found “liberty” with this information.
mark jr. on 16 Jan 2008 at 6:43 pm #
“whack off precious body parts”
Somewhere in this world, Beavis and Butthead are snickering…
Bro, you just GOTTA be more careful….either that or I’m just retarded and it’s my issue. Totally possible.
I think a good dose of Romans 14 would solve most of the hang ups folks have about stuff like this. I find it hard to believe that it’s cool for us to just walk around “cussing” because we believe Paul did. But did he?
Well, when I think of stuff I hear coming from Rob Bell and Doug Paggett, the first thing that goes through my head is a reference to male bovine feces. What else is it?
Yeah, it can be a slippery slope. I have to personally say that when I get more lax with “little” words, the big one’s are easier to come by. Then all of a sudden the “F” bomb comes and I’m like, “what the crap? Why did I say that?”. Seems like a slow, steady erosion or something. Or not, I don’t know. I don’t have it figured out, so I just really make sure I don’t give someone liberty that God hasn’t given to their conscience. I’m not going to destroy someone for the sake of what I think is okay, at times. I also don’t want to condemn myself for what I believe, or make my kids grow up with foul mouths.
You see how tricky this is? I have to do the same thing with beer….which sucks cuz I dig a Guiness, Bass or Negra Modelo once in a blue moon. But it’s just not all that Kosher in my little universe, so it’s not worth fighting for. Sometimes in the effort you spend fighting for the legitimacy of something you end up sounding like an excuse maker for sin….even though you really aren’t trying to be.
Ecchhh….anyway, it’s hard to deal with….that tension of not having something like this perfectly nailed down.
Welp, it’s time to get ready for family bible time and stuff…
By the way, has anyone here ever written on the doctrine of Hell? I’m running into these nutt case annihilationists and I want to choke them until they die and get incinerated instantly because God loves everyone too much to hurt them forever…
…that was sarcasm.
mark jr.