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	<title>Comments on: Why I am Grateful to Liberal Scholars</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/</link>
	<description>Making Theology Accessible</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 01:50:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: JV</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-23972</link>
		<dc:creator>JV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 02:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-23972</guid>
		<description>This article makes it sound like &quot;traditional&quot; scholars are colored with an agenda while liberals are neutral. But Krentz, Eddy &amp; Boyd, Baird, Colin Brown, and Geisler have all proven historical-critical methodologies are rooted in Enlightenment, deistic, anti-supernatural presuppositions. These liberals&#039; methodologies not only seek to undermine Scripture but will and do undermine them. The fruit of research cannot advance beyond its presuppositions. But HC has one advantage to all natural men, it places you as the arbiter of truth - something each of us wants!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article makes it sound like &#8220;traditional&#8221; scholars are colored with an agenda while liberals are neutral. But Krentz, Eddy &amp; Boyd, Baird, Colin Brown, and Geisler have all proven historical-critical methodologies are rooted in Enlightenment, deistic, anti-supernatural presuppositions. These liberals&#8217; methodologies not only seek to undermine Scripture but will and do undermine them. The fruit of research cannot advance beyond its presuppositions. But HC has one advantage to all natural men, it places you as the arbiter of truth &#8211; something each of us wants!</p>
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		<title>By: ChadS</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-2365</link>
		<dc:creator>ChadS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 18:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-2365</guid>
		<description>Michael,

You wrote: &quot;Even Roman Catholics have a series of critical commentaries called Sacra Pagina that takes a critical approach. This type of critical approach normally does not find much support from the Vatican since Roman Catholic scholarship has preset answers that they must arrive at regardless of the data. Nevertheless, these commentaries often deal with issues with integrity, often bringing into  question some of the traditional interpretations of Rome.&quot;

This comment makes it sound like you believe that it is only recently that Catholics have chosen to engage Scripture with a critical and scholarly eye.  According to the editor of the series the title is borrowed from Medieval sources where Sacra Pagina meant the&quot;study of Scripture to which the interpreter brought the tools of grammar, rhetoric, dialectic, and philosophy.&quot;  This sounds a little like old fashioned words
to describe what modern scholars are doing now.  If I may be so bold I would suggest that Evangelicals may have just as much to learn about Scripture from Catholics as they do from liberals.

You say that &quot;these commentaries often deal with issues with integrity.&quot;  Do these scholars have integrity because they disagree with official Church teaching or is it because they agree with Evangelical presuppositions about what the Scriptures say?

One does not have to give up membeship in the Catholic Church to have integrity and to deal with Scripture fully and honestly.  Also one does not have to relinquish scholarly rigor to accept Church teachings.  To have integrity and to deal with Scripture it does not necessarily follow that a person will come to the conclusions that Evangelicals or any other Protestant would accept.

I know Evangelicals have their own sacred cows they have no desire to see slaughtered by Biblical scholars.  For examply how would many react if an Evangelical said that the Bible really does say Peter was the first Pope and that Evangelicals really do need the Papacy or that Jesus never did have any physical brothers or sisters?  These are distinctly Catholic characteristics.  Would you think that this hypothetical Evangelical could remain an evangelical or did he overstep some boundary in his scholarship?  Would others still see him as Evangelical even with no formal separation or would he be chastised for falling in with papists?  Would his integrity as a scholar be questioned?

My response is based upon what I see that paragraph in your post as saying.  I think I&#039;ve probably mis-read it and have done disservice to your actual thoughts on the subject as opposed to what I think you think.  If this has come over as a little harsh I apologize and it wasn&#039;t meant in that tone.

Having said that I agree with what the rest of the post is about.  Liberal scholars aren&#039;t necessarily hindered by a faith tradition or theological presuppositions that other more explicitly faith driven scholars may be.  Unfortunately, as your last paragraph says, they understand the scriptures but don&#039;t accept them.  I suspect that for some of them reading the Gospel of John or Luke or any other Scripture is no different than reading one of Aesop&#039;s fables or Plato&#039;s &quot;Cave&quot;  -- that is a historical document that is more a curiosity and interesting and no more morally compelling than the daily paper.

ChadS</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>You wrote: &#8220;Even Roman Catholics have a series of critical commentaries called Sacra Pagina that takes a critical approach. This type of critical approach normally does not find much support from the Vatican since Roman Catholic scholarship has preset answers that they must arrive at regardless of the data. Nevertheless, these commentaries often deal with issues with integrity, often bringing into  question some of the traditional interpretations of Rome.&#8221;</p>
<p>This comment makes it sound like you believe that it is only recently that Catholics have chosen to engage Scripture with a critical and scholarly eye.  According to the editor of the series the title is borrowed from Medieval sources where Sacra Pagina meant the&#8221;study of Scripture to which the interpreter brought the tools of grammar, rhetoric, dialectic, and philosophy.&#8221;  This sounds a little like old fashioned words<br />
to describe what modern scholars are doing now.  If I may be so bold I would suggest that Evangelicals may have just as much to learn about Scripture from Catholics as they do from liberals.</p>
<p>You say that &#8220;these commentaries often deal with issues with integrity.&#8221;  Do these scholars have integrity because they disagree with official Church teaching or is it because they agree with Evangelical presuppositions about what the Scriptures say?</p>
<p>One does not have to give up membeship in the Catholic Church to have integrity and to deal with Scripture fully and honestly.  Also one does not have to relinquish scholarly rigor to accept Church teachings.  To have integrity and to deal with Scripture it does not necessarily follow that a person will come to the conclusions that Evangelicals or any other Protestant would accept.</p>
<p>I know Evangelicals have their own sacred cows they have no desire to see slaughtered by Biblical scholars.  For examply how would many react if an Evangelical said that the Bible really does say Peter was the first Pope and that Evangelicals really do need the Papacy or that Jesus never did have any physical brothers or sisters?  These are distinctly Catholic characteristics.  Would you think that this hypothetical Evangelical could remain an evangelical or did he overstep some boundary in his scholarship?  Would others still see him as Evangelical even with no formal separation or would he be chastised for falling in with papists?  Would his integrity as a scholar be questioned?</p>
<p>My response is based upon what I see that paragraph in your post as saying.  I think I&#8217;ve probably mis-read it and have done disservice to your actual thoughts on the subject as opposed to what I think you think.  If this has come over as a little harsh I apologize and it wasn&#8217;t meant in that tone.</p>
<p>Having said that I agree with what the rest of the post is about.  Liberal scholars aren&#8217;t necessarily hindered by a faith tradition or theological presuppositions that other more explicitly faith driven scholars may be.  Unfortunately, as your last paragraph says, they understand the scriptures but don&#8217;t accept them.  I suspect that for some of them reading the Gospel of John or Luke or any other Scripture is no different than reading one of Aesop&#8217;s fables or Plato&#8217;s &#8220;Cave&#8221;  &#8212; that is a historical document that is more a curiosity and interesting and no more morally compelling than the daily paper.</p>
<p>ChadS</p>
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		<title>By: Vance</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-2366</link>
		<dc:creator>Vance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-2366</guid>
		<description>Josh and rumblebelly, one source I have found invaluable for keeping up with my passion for history, archeology, etc, is The Teaching Company and The Modern Scholar.  These companies provide university-level lecture series in video and audio from some of the top secular thinkers of the day (and one notable Christian, Luke Timothy Johnson, who is a Catholic).  Whether you agree with their conclusions or not, these professors usually do a great job analyzing the material at hand (although Ehrman can cause you to pull your hair out at times since he DOES overstate his case, having become a zealot in the other direction).  Of course, from our perspective, they are missing out on the great insight of the truth of Christian faith, but they do pretty good with this handicap!  :)  You just have to approach it as &quot;here is what the best scholarship would conclude ABSENT the foundation of faith that we have.&quot;

Warning, the courses are kind of pricey, but if you are interested, and want recommendations, just let me know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh and rumblebelly, one source I have found invaluable for keeping up with my passion for history, archeology, etc, is The Teaching Company and The Modern Scholar.  These companies provide university-level lecture series in video and audio from some of the top secular thinkers of the day (and one notable Christian, Luke Timothy Johnson, who is a Catholic).  Whether you agree with their conclusions or not, these professors usually do a great job analyzing the material at hand (although Ehrman can cause you to pull your hair out at times since he DOES overstate his case, having become a zealot in the other direction).  Of course, from our perspective, they are missing out on the great insight of the truth of Christian faith, but they do pretty good with this handicap!  <img src='http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   You just have to approach it as &#8220;here is what the best scholarship would conclude ABSENT the foundation of faith that we have.&#8221;</p>
<p>Warning, the courses are kind of pricey, but if you are interested, and want recommendations, just let me know.</p>
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		<title>By: rumblebelly</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-2367</link>
		<dc:creator>rumblebelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-2367</guid>
		<description>I second Josh&#039;s comment!

Juan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second Josh&#8217;s comment!</p>
<p>Juan</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-2372</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 13:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-2372</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the post Michael,

Would you or Dr. Wallace mind posting some of the reputable liberal scholars that you found the most helpful? Or that you would recommend reading along side some of the more conservative commentaries? Thanks.

Your brother in Christ,

-Josh</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the post Michael,</p>
<p>Would you or Dr. Wallace mind posting some of the reputable liberal scholars that you found the most helpful? Or that you would recommend reading along side some of the more conservative commentaries? Thanks.</p>
<p>Your brother in Christ,</p>
<p>-Josh</p>
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		<title>By: The Boar&#8217;s Head Tavern &#187; Piper defends the compromise on baptism</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-2373</link>
		<dc:creator>The Boar&#8217;s Head Tavern &#187; Piper defends the compromise on baptism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 12:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-2373</guid>
		<description>[...] Michael Patton writes about why he is grateful to liberal scholars.    Posted by: Michael Spencer @ 8:15 am &#124; Trackback &#124; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Michael Patton writes about why he is grateful to liberal scholars.    Posted by: Michael Spencer @ 8:15 am | Trackback | [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-2374</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 04:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-2374</guid>
		<description>My third line makes no sense. It should read, &quot;The evangelical &lt;b&gt;definition&lt;/b&gt; of a liberal as â€œanyone who &lt;b&gt;denies&lt;/b&gt; inerrancyâ€ leaves a lot to be desired.&quot;

Michael, that old post of your was the one that turned me on to this blog. The position you describe there is fairly close to my own. I hold a basically neo-orthodox view of Scripture, which I view as more nuanced and viable than the Old Princeton standard.

I don&#039;t teach inerrancy, but neither do I teach errancy. I have my own private list of &quot;problem passages,&quot; but I mostly keep them private as discussing them edifies no one. And, I will also contend that none of them are serious problems that in any way endanger Christian belief. But I still couldn&#039;t join the ETS in good conscience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My third line makes no sense. It should read, &#8220;The evangelical <b>definition</b> of a liberal as â€œanyone who <b>denies</b> inerrancyâ€ leaves a lot to be desired.&#8221;</p>
<p>Michael, that old post of your was the one that turned me on to this blog. The position you describe there is fairly close to my own. I hold a basically neo-orthodox view of Scripture, which I view as more nuanced and viable than the Old Princeton standard.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t teach inerrancy, but neither do I teach errancy. I have my own private list of &#8220;problem passages,&#8221; but I mostly keep them private as discussing them edifies no one. And, I will also contend that none of them are serious problems that in any way endanger Christian belief. But I still couldn&#8217;t join the ETS in good conscience.</p>
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		<title>By: Vance</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-2368</link>
		<dc:creator>Vance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-2368</guid>
		<description>Michael, I agree entirely with your post and it basically says what I was getting at in another thread.

Sean, while I have a bit tighter view of Scripture than you (I can still see Scripture as &quot;inerrant&quot; even with those inconsistencies and even &quot;errors&quot; often mentioned, but that is another thread), I agree entirely that it is the rigid fundamentalist approach to what Scripture is meant to be that causes SO many to lose faith.   They are taught too many &quot;either/ors&quot;  EITHER this particular text must be literal historical narrative OR you can&#039;t trust Scripture at all, etc.   I mentioned Bart Ehrman&#039;s loss of faith for this very reason in a recent post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I agree entirely with your post and it basically says what I was getting at in another thread.</p>
<p>Sean, while I have a bit tighter view of Scripture than you (I can still see Scripture as &#8220;inerrant&#8221; even with those inconsistencies and even &#8220;errors&#8221; often mentioned, but that is another thread), I agree entirely that it is the rigid fundamentalist approach to what Scripture is meant to be that causes SO many to lose faith.   They are taught too many &#8220;either/ors&#8221;  EITHER this particular text must be literal historical narrative OR you can&#8217;t trust Scripture at all, etc.   I mentioned Bart Ehrman&#8217;s loss of faith for this very reason in a recent post.</p>
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		<title>By: C Michael Patton</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-2369</link>
		<dc:creator>C Michael Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-2369</guid>
		<description>BTW Sean: Here are some of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/07/14/the-danger-of-inerrancy-2/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my thoughts on inerrancy&lt;/a&gt; in the context of your situation...you might have already read them though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW Sean: Here are some of <a href="http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/07/14/the-danger-of-inerrancy-2/" rel="nofollow">my thoughts on inerrancy</a> in the context of your situation&#8230;you might have already read them though.</p>
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		<title>By: C Michael Patton</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/what-conservatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/comment-page-1/#comment-2370</link>
		<dc:creator>C Michael Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 03:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/08/what-consevatives-have-learned-from-liberals-about-bible-interpretation/#comment-2370</guid>
		<description>Good point Sean. My primary use of the word Liberal here has to do with those who do not necessarily study the Scriptures for the acquisition of a theology or any religious purposes, positive or negative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point Sean. My primary use of the word Liberal here has to do with those who do not necessarily study the Scriptures for the acquisition of a theology or any religious purposes, positive or negative.</p>
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