I find no biblical evidence for the OT saints to have any of the NT positional truths:

Crucified with Christ? Gal 2:20
Buried with him in baptism Col 2:12 (i.e. not water but spirit 1 Cor 12:13)
Risen or resurrected with him? Rom 6:1-13
Old man crucified with him and put off Rom 6:6; Col 3:9
Raised to sit in heavenly places Eph 2:6
Having forgiven ALL trespasses Col 2:13
We are adopted predestined to be conformed to the image of his son Rom 8:23 and the adoption as sons Gal 4:5

None of these positional truths are anywhere stated, taught or implied of OT saints.

Even the fact of being regenerated is suspect as how can an OT saint be regenerated by the holy Spirit and then the HS leave them??? We are sealed by the Spirit until the day of redemption Eph 1:13, 14 and Eph 4:30

Lastly, was there a single person prior to the resurrection that was listed as being “in Christ”?

Being IN CHRIST is an almost exclusive Pauline positional truth

I think most theologians debunk Dispensationalism, as been mere 19th century nut cases. However I beg to differ I believe Dispensationalism has an excellent way to explain Eschatology and and Soteriology. It see Israel in light of the biblical revelation of the scared scriptures, It see the body of Christ the church, its place, its goal, this is clearly seen in the NT Testament. However this is not the case with Covenant theology . as it fall shy of really understanding that it is the Nation of Israel that God gave the Covenant of circumcision, this is not the case with the Gentiles, who are the ecclsia the body of Christ.
Patric

Socrates,

I don’t know if you were responding to me or to Michael but I would echo Michael’s sentiments. If it was to me, I think that my question and comments have been misunderstood – if that’s the case, I can try again.

Am I the only one who I sees (or understands my questions -posts #5, #8)? It’s possible it’s all in my head, but for me it’s a glaring question that is nagging at me.

-steve

Who? I never suggested such. Of course God knew. I am not open theist.

So are you saying that God did not know that Adam would sin? Is he not all
knowing and soveriegn? To say that God did not know Adam would sin is to
Limit God’s power. If God knew that Adam would sin doesn’t it mean that
God would have had a plan for redemtion already in place? We need to not
limit the soverienty of God by thinkining that He is there correcting mans
errors by redirecting man with new covenents. The object of creation is for
the glorification of God through His deminstrating His nature. So we need to
see God’s justice and mercy as the deminstration of his Glory. The cross is
solely to glorify God not to save man.

Chad,

He does indeed argue that view. And, though I thoroughly enjoyed the book, I felt the argument for the OT saints was based on scant evidence. (not Dr. Hamilton’s fault, I just don’t think there is much if any.) For example, I still cannot find a single OC saint that is referred to as having a circumcised heart in either the old or new testament. When I went looking through the evidences, it seemed to indicate the contrary in fact.

For example:

The book listed several passages, the first being Jeremiah 9:25-26:

9:25 The Lord says, “Watch out! The time is soon coming when I will punish all those who are circumcised only in the flesh. 9:26 That is, I will punish the Egyptians, the Judeans, the Edomites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, and all the desert people who cut their hair short at the temples. I will do so because none of the people of those nations are really circumcised in the Lord’s sight. Moreover, none of the people of Israel are circumcised when it comes to their hearts.”

http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=jer&chapter=9#n52

In reading this, it would seem that it indicates the opposite – there were no Jews within the Old Covenant that had circumcised hearts.

Now, I’ve not made my mind up about this – I am wanting to let the Biblical evidences drive my conclusions. I’m just having trouble finding any. ;^) The bigger problem then is if I assume the OC saints were not saved in the same manner then it contradicts the reformed view of salvation. I clearly think people were saved by grace through faith under both covenants, but I have problems saying the OC saints were regenerate based on the lack of supporting evidence and the explicit evidences to the contrary. So I cant seem to get out of this contradiction. I also wonder as I’ve asked various people is if I get the “systematic” answer – meaning a CT will answer this one way and a Disp. will answer it another way, merely based on their systems rather than the Scriptural evidence. Thus, I am still trying to get to a better understanding…

-steve

I just finished Hamilton’s book and I thought he argued that OT and NT saints were regenerated in the same way “circumcision of the heart” to allow for faith, but only NT saints were subsequently indwelt by the Spirit

I’m not well educated on the Covenental Theology thing. I just picked up Michael Horton’s “God of Promise, an Introduction to Covenental Theology” I’ll see what happens.

Also Michael will enlighten me with Ecclesiology and Eschatology in the The Theology Program this fall!!

If I may suggest, that it was counted to Abraham for his faith” He believed God and that was if you will an insurance of his salvation. Knowing this was before the law, it begs the question did the other entire OT saints do like wise, believe in gods promises. I can not help to wonder if when Jesus gave up the ghost in John and the spirits (the OT saints) where flowing thru the city, if this has something to do with there release if you will of there belief and thus became saved only to await us of the New Covenant to join them.

Michael,

Thanks for the follow up – you touched on the issue that I’ve been chewing on for some time:

I don’t see evidence in the Scriptures that Old Covenant saints were enabled to live consistently holy lives as compared to their New Covenant counterparts. (Just look at the hero’s of the old testament and see how few of them would even qualify as New Testament leaders). However, to assert that they had faith but were not regenerate is to contradict the reformed ordo salutis. I’m struggling to reconcile the two.

From reading Dr. Hamilton’s book regarding the Holy Spirit, he describes a viewpoint that agrees the OC saints were saved by faith, but would not consider them regenerate (a new, circumcised heart like in the new covenant). (If you’ve read the book, this is viewpoint #4 in chapter 2 and I believe that Dr. Bock holds this view?) What I’m wondering is what would the ordo salutis be for an Old Covenant saint according to this viewpoint? Is it possible for faith to precede regeneration, while still holding to election? Would they view the Old Testament ‘circumcision of the heart’ passages as references to the future New Testament, New Covenant experience of regeneration/new creation, rather than being an Old Covenant parallel to this experience? Did Old Covenant saints have the real, actual ability to “reckon themselves dead to sin” as Paul says is true of NC believers in Romans 6?

I’m trying to work my way through the Old Testament canonically. One of the things that have struck me is the lack of ability to resist sin these Old Covenant saints seemed to have. I’m reminded of Moses in Deut. 29 telling the people that God has still not given them a heart to know or see. Then there is Joshua, telling the next generation that they too won’t keep the covenant (chapter 24). Then Judges, even David, the exiles, and so on. There are some positive exceptions, but not many.

To me the evidence seems to better fit that they did not have circumcised hearts, both from the explicit references in the text and from observing what is recorded about their behavior. Obviously others have come to a different conclusion and I’m looking to understand, where I have gone wrong in my assessment of the Old Covenant saints?

Thanks,

-steve

“stevemoore on 31 Aug 2007 at 3:10 pm #

Michael,

In this view, how were OC saints saved and empowered to live holy lives?

Or, more specifically, what was different about the OC saint and the NC saint? Did the OC saint have all the same spiritual resources as the NC saint within this view?”

I think some of this answer lies here in romans 1:20

“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,”

I believe the oc saints recognized Gods devine nature, His faithfulness, kindness, and graciousness. These things are what lead them to live holy lives.

I don’t believe there is much difference between the oc/nc saint aside from JC Himself, who confirms them with what they already believe.

They both have the same resource in my opinion.

djohn