Thanks – glad you liked the comments . ;^)

Here’s something that I want to toss out to you in regards to one of your comments:

‘seems to make me want to say “Well God should have sent his Son, he used Adam to represent all of us, He needs to give us an ‘out’ from Adam’s screwup.” ‘

This is something I’m still chewing on, so take this in that manner please ;^) – what is it about God that would _require_ Him to extend grace to us regardless of His choice about imputed sin? Would it be against some aspect of His character to declare His creation sinful? By who’s criteria is sin determined in the first place? If so, which one and how? Would He even need to do this if He wanted to wipe everything out and start from scratch? To me, this does not seem to diminish grace at all, but rather puts it in a much greater perspective.

I think as humans we tend to think that we are owed something with respect to how God treats us. By definition, however He treats us is fair which is where the rub comes in I think – what we think of as fair and what God does is fair and they dont necessarily match. The play-doh creature my son makes does not stand a chance – he’s gonna squash it. And, it isnt owed anything from my son either. Now, dont get me wrong – I’m really, really, really glad that God has given us a way through Christ. I’m just trying to think of this in perspective. And I’m not trying to discount the fact that we are made in God’s image. That does mean that we should treat each other with dignity, but it does not, I dont think, obligate God to do something for us because we think it’s fair from our fallible and fallen and created perspective.

Thoughts?

-steve

Steve,

I like your analogy, I think that is a good picture. I also liked your belly button comment the other day…

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Michael,

Maybe I’m misunderstanding it, but based on how I’m reading the federal viewpoint, could we not change this statement: “Thank God for His grace, saving us from our depravity”; to this: “Thank God for His grace, saving us from the depravity that we inherited from Adam without our consent”? This viewpoint seems to make me want to say “Well God should have sent his Son, he used Adam to represent all of us, He needs to give us an ‘out’ from Adam’s screwup.” It seems to diminish grace…

Palatability does not determine veracity… Palatability does not determine veracity… Palatability does not…

Michael,

Well presented, thank you.

I have one question that I was hoping you could clarify a point you made regarding the Augustinian view:

“then we would also have to concede that we all actually and realistically were righteous in Christ.”

I understand the words, but I’m not sure exactly what this means or or how it would play out. Can you clarify this statement a bit perhaps? What’s throwing me is that I have thought we were made righteous in Christ (justified) and so I’m not sure how to differentiate the two statements or ideas. Or are you saying this is our righteousness and not Christ’s righteousness imputed to us?

A second comment:

I probably fall into the federal camp on this point for the reasons you’ve noted. I’ve heard it explained that we can think of humanity as a family tree, as a whole. Adam, is at the trunk and when he sinned the trunk of the tree died. Even though the leaves may look green for a while, the whole tree is dead and there is no hope for it to live. As leaves or twigs or whatever out from the trunk, our only hope is a living tree. Christ is the trunk of the only other tree, a living tree, and he rescues us by grafting us onto himself. Maybe not a perfect example of the federal view, but I think it fits ok and may help some see how this lines up with scripture as well.

I think is hard for us as humans not to be humanistic with respect to how a Just and Fair God deals with us. Our definition of fair is far from His and honestly will fall far very short. I think part of the hesitancy of all (including myself) in looking at some of these views is we fall into that trap. We think as humans that we have some special right to exist and be treated a in certain way but I just don’t see any proof of that anywhere, other than the Love of God being gracious to create us and gracious to save us. He’s the potter, we’re the clay. It’s a hard pill to swallow, but I think it is a correct perspective according to Scripture.

Thanks,

-steve