Comments on: A Near Death Experience? A Theological Evaluation of Don Piper’s “90 Minutes in Heaven” http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/ Just another WordPress weblog Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:20:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: Bruce http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-4047 Bruce Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:56:27 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-4047 To dmcdmc I would say the main point of what I believe the review of the book was trying to convey is that scripture not the testimonies of NDE people should be the final authority on what the after life is like regardless of your particular opinion of NDE in general and whether these are authentic. I think it is right to question a description of the afterlife that is at odds with scripture even if you in principle believe in NDE. If these NDE people later teach doctrines that they supposedly received from God that are not in harmony with scripture, scripture and not there abberant teaching should have authority. To dmcdmc I would say the main point of what I believe the review of the book was trying to convey is that scripture not the testimonies of NDE people should be the final authority on what the after life is like regardless of your particular opinion of NDE in general and whether these are authentic. I think it is right to question a description of the afterlife that is at odds with scripture even if you in principle believe in NDE. If these NDE people later teach doctrines that they supposedly received from God that are not in harmony with scripture, scripture and not there abberant teaching should have authority.

]]> By: Truth is Still Truth http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2036 Truth is Still Truth Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:48:22 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2036 <strong>The Deaths of the Apostles</strong> The Deaths of the Apostles

]]> By: dmcdmc http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2034 dmcdmc Sun, 12 Aug 2007 06:57:09 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2034 Option #4 would eventually lead to the same conclusion as Fracis Crick co-discover of DNA. His believe is that brain produces mind and is the mind. There are several challenges that need to be address before considering that NDE and related phenomena are just illusions or hallucinations of the brain. Throughout history and in many cultures there are documentations of NDE. The earliest report is Plato where he reported a soldier who was thought to be dead and placed on a funeral pyre. The first systematic study was done by Heim (1892-1972). This study for the first time brought together a large number of these experiences where they only thinks that death is imminent. According to neurosciences and psychologists who undertake these researches found some recurring features of NDE: 1) feeling of peace, joy 2) sense of being out of one's body and able to watch events going on around one's body. 3) bright light 4) no pain felt One noteworthy point: NDE generally alters the person's attitudes dramatically and permanently, leading often to increase in spirituality, sense of purpose in life and decrease fear of death. As for theories/ models to explain NDE there are several. A) Psychological and cultural theories. Example: People in different cultures interpret what they expericence like Indian from India would generally say that messenger of death took the wrong person. Westerners would interpret their experience as being sent back to finish what was unfinished and met by deceased loved ones . B) Physiological theories. Blood gases. It is one of the earliest and most persistent theory. It is thought that due to hypoxia ( decrease in O2) and hypercarbia ( increase in CO2) results in hallucinations. Suffice to say there are many problems with this theory. Neurochemical theory. Neuroanatomical theory. All these have major hurdles. All of these theories have one common thread about brain/conscious experience. This conscious experience consist of synchronous high frequency ( gamma band about 30-70 Hz) EEG. However, they do not account for those who had heart attack and under general anesthesia an experience NDE. When a person who has a full cardiac arrest, three things occur no if or buts. 1) EKG goes flat , 2) EEG goes flat or brainwaves are absent. 3) No respiration. Yet there are over 100 cases of NDE documented ( Greyson 2003, Sabom 1982, van Lommel et al 2001) NDE cannot simply be dismissed as misguided, hallucinations from neuroscience, psychological or theological viewpoint as there are dozens of well documented cases by respected authorities. Option #4 would eventually lead to the same conclusion as Fracis Crick co-discover of DNA. His believe is that brain produces mind and is the mind. There are several challenges that need to be address before considering that NDE and related phenomena are just illusions or hallucinations of the brain.
Throughout history and in many cultures there are documentations of NDE. The earliest report is Plato where he reported a soldier who was thought to be dead and placed on a funeral pyre. The first systematic study was done by Heim (1892-1972). This study for the first time brought together a large number of these experiences where they only thinks that death is imminent.
According to neurosciences and psychologists who undertake these researches found some recurring features of NDE:
1) feeling of peace, joy
2) sense of being out of one’s body and able to watch events going on around one’s body.
3) bright light
4) no pain felt
One noteworthy point: NDE generally alters the person’s attitudes dramatically and permanently, leading often to increase in spirituality, sense of purpose in life and decrease fear of death.
As for theories/ models to explain NDE there are several.
A) Psychological and cultural theories. Example: People in different cultures interpret what they expericence like Indian from India would generally say that messenger of death took the wrong person. Westerners would interpret their experience as being sent back to finish what was unfinished and met by deceased loved ones .
B) Physiological theories. Blood gases. It is one of the earliest and most persistent theory. It is thought that due to hypoxia ( decrease in O2) and hypercarbia ( increase in CO2) results in hallucinations. Suffice to say there are many problems with this theory. Neurochemical theory. Neuroanatomical theory. All these have major hurdles.

All of these theories have one common thread about brain/conscious experience. This conscious experience consist of synchronous high frequency ( gamma band about 30-70 Hz) EEG. However, they do not account for those who had heart attack and under general anesthesia an experience NDE. When a person who has a full cardiac arrest, three things occur no if or buts. 1) EKG goes flat , 2) EEG goes flat or brainwaves are absent. 3) No respiration. Yet there are over 100 cases of NDE documented ( Greyson 2003, Sabom 1982, van Lommel et al 2001)
NDE cannot simply be dismissed as misguided, hallucinations from neuroscience, psychological or theological viewpoint as there are dozens of well documented cases by respected authorities.

]]> By: KingdomServant http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2033 KingdomServant Wed, 08 Aug 2007 11:36:46 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2033 It seems to me that our experiences outside our physical bodies would be entirely different than from the inside. For example, our vision and our senses would be somehow different, not limited in the way they are form the inside. The biggest difference being that our interaction with physical objects would be different, i.e., passing through walls and so forth. I recall the movie Ghost with Patrick Swayzee (sp?). In it, he had difficulty moving a penny, but had no trouble standing on the floor. I'm not saying that's what happens. But if someone were to tell their OBE story that way, you'd have to wonder about what actually happened. Do we stand on the floor or do we float. I just see our experiences being somehow different outside these physical bodies. NDE's claim to be viewing things from the outside. My body is over there and I'm over here. if that's the case, there is no (or should not be) the same kinds of experiences as from the inside. And the kind of reporting should reflect that. It seems to me that our experiences outside our physical bodies would be entirely different than from the inside. For example, our vision and our senses would be somehow different, not limited in the way they are form the inside. The biggest difference being that our interaction with physical objects would be different, i.e., passing through walls and so forth.

I recall the movie Ghost with Patrick Swayzee (sp?). In it, he had difficulty moving a penny, but had no trouble standing on the floor. I’m not saying that’s what happens. But if someone were to tell their OBE story that way, you’d have to wonder about what actually happened. Do we stand on the floor or do we float.

I just see our experiences being somehow different outside these physical bodies. NDE’s claim to be viewing things from the outside. My body is over there and I’m over here. if that’s the case, there is no (or should not be) the same kinds of experiences as from the inside. And the kind of reporting should reflect that.

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2035 C Michael Patton Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:48:35 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2035 Thanks Ruth. I just feel it is so unfortunate that stories like these form the basis for people's faith. Pseudo-apologetics and tabloid theology is ruling the day whether it be this or scientific discoveries of the "lost day" of Joshua or the Bible Code. Sigh . . . We have so much more to offer than this. Thanks Ruth. I just feel it is so unfortunate that stories like these form the basis for people’s faith. Pseudo-apologetics and tabloid theology is ruling the day whether it be this or scientific discoveries of the “lost day” of Joshua or the Bible Code. Sigh . . . We have so much more to offer than this.

]]> By: Ruth Tucker http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2026 Ruth Tucker Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:51:08 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2026 Michael, This is the best review of Piper's 90 minutes that I have seen. You're right on when you speak of folk theology. It is found everywhere in popular culture, including the country song of some years ago, "Streets of Heaven." Part of his story even has a familiar ring in the film,"The Apostle." Here Sonny, the preacher, sees an auto accident and reaches inside the car a prays for the one not being attended by law enforcement. Well, one thing we know for sure: Piper is making a trunk-load of money on his 90 minutes. Michael,

This is the best review of Piper’s 90 minutes that I have seen. You’re right on when you speak of folk theology. It is found everywhere in popular culture, including the country song of some years ago, “Streets of Heaven.” Part of his story even has a familiar ring in the film,”The Apostle.” Here Sonny, the preacher, sees an auto accident and reaches inside the car a prays for the one not being attended by law enforcement.

Well, one thing we know for sure: Piper is making a trunk-load of money on his 90 minutes.

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2027 C Michael Patton Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:25:11 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2027 That Gary Habermas video was great. Very interesting and well worth watching. He seems to confirm that many of these NDEs are relevant to the culture of the one who experienced it. That Gary Habermas video was great. Very interesting and well worth watching. He seems to confirm that many of these NDEs are relevant to the culture of the one who experienced it.

]]> By: ChadS http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2028 ChadS Mon, 06 Aug 2007 14:20:25 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2028 A long, long time ago I took a philosophy course in college that dealt almost exclusively with Near Death Experiences. What I remember is that members of different religions and faiths experience heaven or the afterlife in the cultural and religous terms they are most familiar with. This lead many physicians to view Near Death Experiences as a medical experience related more to deprivation of oxygen and the sudden automatic release of numerous hormones and chemicals that induce these experiences in people. Thankfully my faith does not need to rely on the experiences of people who almost died or briefly died -- they have been known to come back feeling they have a "mission." I also suspect that heaven will be far more wonderful than any images we can conjure up in our head from the brief descriptions provided in the Bible. How could we expect something so wonderful to be adequately described in imperfect human language? ChadS A long, long time ago I took a philosophy course in college that dealt almost exclusively with Near Death Experiences. What I remember is that members of different religions and faiths experience heaven or the afterlife in the cultural and religous terms they are most familiar with. This lead many physicians to view Near Death Experiences as a medical experience related more to deprivation of oxygen and the sudden automatic release of numerous hormones and chemicals that induce these experiences in people.

Thankfully my faith does not need to rely on the experiences of people who almost died or briefly died — they have been known to come back feeling they have a “mission.” I also suspect that heaven will be far more wonderful than any images we can conjure up in our head from the brief descriptions provided in the Bible. How could we expect something so wonderful to be adequately described in imperfect human language?

ChadS

]]> By: JoanieD http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2029 JoanieD Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:47:43 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2029 http://www.chabad.org:80/library/article.asp?AID=282508 I ran across this website recently which contains a lot of Jewish teachings. I am sure, that similar to Christianity, not all Jewish people would agree with the teachings there. But that URL I gave above talks about what happens after death. I was interested to see that it teaches about purgatory and about a time when the soul and body will reunite. It also teaches about free will. Of course, there is nothing there that teaches that we need faith in Jesus. It teaches about the effects of our good and bad deeds. It also teaches that a person COULD be reincarnated. Joanie D. http://www.chabad.org:80/library/article.asp?AID=282508
I ran across this website recently which contains a lot of Jewish teachings. I am sure, that similar to Christianity, not all Jewish people would agree with the teachings there. But that URL I gave above talks about what happens after death. I was interested to see that it teaches about purgatory and about a time when the soul and body will reunite. It also teaches about free will. Of course, there is nothing there that teaches that we need faith in Jesus. It teaches about the effects of our good and bad deeds. It also teaches that a person COULD be reincarnated.

Joanie D.

]]> By: richards http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2030 richards Mon, 06 Aug 2007 10:48:48 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2030 Someone in my Sunday School class mentioned a similar incident where a 9-year-old girl was "taken to heaven" and she now draws pictures of what she saw. Furthermore, God speaks to her concerning what she can reveal from what she saw. I was out when this woman brought up the story, but I'm troubled whenever someone unquestioningly accepts the experiences of another. This incident is even more alarming since it involves ongoing revelation that is not being tested against scripture. Greg Koukl has an article on his <a href=http://www.str.org rel="nofollow">STR</a> called "A Private Hotline to God?" where he offers similar thoughts. Someone in my Sunday School class mentioned a similar incident where a 9-year-old girl was “taken to heaven” and she now draws pictures of what she saw. Furthermore, God speaks to her concerning what she can reveal from what she saw.

I was out when this woman brought up the story, but I’m troubled whenever someone unquestioningly accepts the experiences of another. This incident is even more alarming since it involves ongoing revelation that is not being tested against scripture.

Greg Koukl has an article on his STR called “A Private Hotline to God?” where he offers similar thoughts.

]]> By: andrewrmcneill http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2031 andrewrmcneill Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:31:39 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2031 btw, probably should have said, "... their experience had indeed been colored..." btw, probably should have said, “… their experience had indeed been colored…”

]]> By: andrewrmcneill http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/08/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2032 andrewrmcneill Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:30:30 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/08/06/a-near-death-experience-a-theological-evaluation-of-don-pipers-90-minutes-in-heaven/#comment-2032 Gary Habermas lectured on Near-Death Experiences and you can watch that lecture <a href="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=8225341779641252488&hl=en-GB" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Habermas doesn't really make much of a conclusion about the subject but it was interesting to note that he mentioned how people from other religions had also experienced such experiences and their eschatology had indeed been colored by their religion. Blessings, Andrew. Gary Habermas lectured on Near-Death Experiences and you can watch that lecture here. Habermas doesn’t really make much of a conclusion about the subject but it was interesting to note that he mentioned how people from other religions had also experienced such experiences and their eschatology had indeed been colored by their religion.

Blessings,
Andrew.

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