Is Our Canon of Scripture a Fallible Collection of Infallible Books?
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I am looking on page 23 of my Bible and it has the list of books. The books all together number 66—39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. This is often referred to as the “canon” of Scripture. “Canon” (Gk. kanon) means “rule” or “measuring rod.” The canon of Scripture is the collection or a “rule” of books that Christians believe belong in the Bible. There are some variations among Christian traditions concerning the number of books. The Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox churches all use different canons (as well, some eastern churches will vary still). The Catholic and Orthodox include a group of books in their Bibles referred to as the Deuterocanonical books (”second canon”) or, as Protestants would call it, the “Apocrypha” (although the Orthodox church is not quite as settled upon the status of the Apocrypha).
The question How do you know what books belong in the Bible? is a significant one indeed. The Catholics and Orthodox will normally refer to the establishment of these books as part of the canon by fourth century councils. Catholics would further refer to the teachings of the council of Trent (1545-1563)Â which dogmatically and infallibly declared the current Catholic canon (including the Apocrypha) as being authoritative.
I believe that the 66 books of the Protestant canon belong in the Bible, no more no less. I believe that all 66 books are inspired, inerrant, and infallible. Yet the list on page 23 of my Bible is not part of the canon. In other words, the list itself is not part of the inspired word of God. I am using the New American Standard Bible, but it is the same in any version of any language. Even the NET Bible does not have an inspired list, even in the footnotes! There is no early Greek or Hebrew manuscript that solves the problem either. Therefore I have a potential difficulty. Since do not believe in an infallible humany authority that can determine what books belong in the Bible, how can I be certain what books belong in the Bible?
It was R.C. Sproul who first made the claim that Protestants have a fallible canon of infallible books. A fallible canon of infallible books? What good is that? Catholics often jest about the seemingly ironic situation in which advocates of sola Scriptura find themselves. The doctrine of sola Scripture was one of the two primary battle cries of the Reformation in the sixteenth century. Essentially it means that the Scripture is the ultimate and only infallible authority for the body of Christ in matters of Christian faith and practice. Professing this doctrine does not mean that there are no other authorities, but that there are no other ultimate and infallible authorities. Catholics on the other hand will claim that they, due to their belief in a living infallible authority, have an infallible collection of infallible books.
Not only this, but what about interpretation? Not only do Protestants not believe in an infallible authority to dogmatize which books belong in the Bible, but they don’t believe in an infallible authority to interpret the Bible. Therefore, we can take this to the next level. Protestants have a fallible interpretation of an fallible canon of infallible books. Ouch! Sounds like it is time to convert to Catholicism, eh?
Not so fast. In the end, this is an issue of epistemology. Epistemology deals with the question “How do you know?” How do we know the canon is correct? How do we know we have the right interpretation? Assumed within these questions is the idea of certainty. How do you know with certainty? Not only this, but how do you know with absolute certainty?
The question that I would ask is this: Do we need absolute infallible certainty about something to 1) be justified in our belief about that something, 2) to be held responsible for a belief in that something. I would answer “no” for two primary reasons:
1. This supposed need for absolute certainty is primarily the product of the enlightenment and a Cartesian epistemology. To say that we have to be infallibly certain about something before it can be believed and acted upon is setting the standard so high that only God Himself could attain to it. Outside of mathematics and analytical statements (e.g. a triangle had three sides), there is no absolute certainty, only relative certainty. This does not, however, give anyone an excuse or alleviate responsibility for belief in something.
For example, I believe that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. I prepare each day with this belief in mind. Each night, I set my alarm clock and review my appointments for the following day, having a certain expectation that the next day will truly come. While I have certainty about the sun rising the next day, I don’t have infallible certainty that it will. There could be some astronomical anomaly that causes the earth to stop its rotation. There could be an asteroid that comes and destroys the earth. Christ could come in the middle of the night. In short, I don’t have absolute infallible certainty about the coming of the next day. This, however, does not give me an excuse before men or God for not believing that it will come. What if I missed an early appointment the next day and told the person “I am sorry, I did not set my alarm clock because I did not have infallible certainty that this day would come.” Would that be a valid excuse? It would neither be a valid excuse to the person who I was supposed to meet or to God.
We have a term that we use for people who require infallible certainty about everything: “mentally ill.” Remember What About Bob? He was mentally ill because he made decisions based on the improbability factor. Because it was a possibility that something bad could happen to him if he stepped outside his house, he assumed it would happen. There are degrees of probability. We act according to degrees of probability. Simply because it is a possibility that the sun will not rise tomorrow does not mean that it is a probability that it won’t.
The same can be said about the canon and interpretation of Scripture. Just because there is a possibility that we are wrong (being fallible), does not mean that it is a probability. Therefore, we look to the evidence for the degree of probability concerning Scripture.
2. The smoke screen of epistemological certainty that seems to be provided by having a living infallible authority (Magisterium) disappears when we realize that we all start with fallibility. No one would claim personal infallibility. Therefore it is possible for all of us to be wrong. We all have to start with personal fallible engagement in any issue. Therefore, any belief in an infallible living authority could be wrong. As Geisler and MacKenzie put it, “The supposed need for an infallible magisterium is an epistemically insufficient basis for rising above the level of probable knowledge. Catholic scholars admit, as they must, that they do not have infallible evidence that there is an infallible teaching magisterium. They have merely what even they believe to be only probable arguments. But if this is the case, then epistemically or apologetically there is no more than a probable basis for Catholics to believe that a supposedly infallible pronouncement [either about the canon or interpretation of the canon] of their church is true” (Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences, p. 216).
This means that we are all in the same river, just different boats. Catholics have a fallible belief about an infallible authority; Protestants have a fallible belief about an infallible authority. Both authorities must be substantiated by the evidence and both authorities must be interpreted by fallible people. In the end, what is the difference?
Do we have a fallible collection of infallible books? Yes, I believe we do. When all is said and done, all of our beliefs are fallible and therefore subject to error. But remember, the possibility of error does not necessitate the probability of error. We have to appeal to the evidence to decide. God would [probably] accept nothing less. ![]()
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- Is Our Canon of Scripture a Fallible Collection of Infallible Books?
- Can Catholics Affirm Sola Scriptura?
- Are You Orthodox or Heretic?
- Roman Catholicism and Evangelicalism: Has the Battle Ground Begun to Change?
- Advice to Christian Apologists

Jugulum on 15 Aug 2007 at 6:58 pm #
And one one more thing you didn’t mention is the issue of interpreting the Catholics’ infallible authority. No Catholic has infallible certainty on any doctrine, except (conceivably) the Pope. Any given Catholic has his fallible interpretation/understanding of the Magisterium’s “infallible” interpretation of the infallible revelation.
Athanasius2000 on 15 Aug 2007 at 7:21 pm #
Great post, Michael! I really appreciate your heart and insights. Keep it up!
It seems like your post is primarily concerned with the NT canon. I was wondering what your thoughts were regarding the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures, because it seems that there is some suggestion of an “infallible canon” based upon statements the Lord made which are recorded in the Gospels. Should we consider the canon of the Law, Prophets and Writings to be infallible based upon those comments?
Would love to hear your thoughts…
ChadS on 15 Aug 2007 at 7:26 pm #
Michael,
Great post. You lay out nicely the problems for both Catholics and Protestants.
The only thing I think you missed in your post is divine agency. Both Catholics and Protestants assert that the canonical books of the Bible are written by God through human agents. We both believe that all the books are inerrant (however you choose to define it and with what caveats) and are infallible. This wasn’t done through only human efforts but divinely inspired agency. So if we can accept that God wrote the books why can’t we accept that he also made sure we chose only the books he wrote?
Now, where and how could one determine which books are truly inspired? I’m sure you can guess my answer — so I’ll leave it at that.
Jugulum, just as a quick correction the Pope is not infallible as a person. It’s the office of the Papacy that is infallible and even for a statement to be made infallible several specific requirements are set forth that preclude him from just opening his mouth and saying it’s infallible.
The only people that can speak with final doctrinal authority is the Magisterium — once again that is only under specific instances only. So if a Catholic or anyboy misunderstands Church teachings that’s their problem and not the Church’s.
If a Catholic teaching is properly understood in the light of tradition and history and the Magisterium the person reading it can be certain it is true. How that person does or doesn’t apply it to their life is where problems creep in but one can be sure that at least the teaching is true.
ChadS
ChadS on 15 Aug 2007 at 7:30 pm #
Athanasius,
I’d be comfortable extending evidence for the canonicity of the OT beyond just the words of Jesus. I think there are plenty of other quotes that Paul and the other NT writers included in their letters that make allusions to OT books.
Many Catholic scholars also argue that there are allusions to the Deuterocanonical books contained within the NT that Protestants generally call the Apocrypha. If these allusions could be borne out to the satisfaction of some Protestants would they then possibly consider those books to be inspired too?
ChadS
Jugulum on 15 Aug 2007 at 8:46 pm #
Chad,
I realized the Pope isn’t held to be generally infallible, but I wanted to hedge my bets on the possibility that there might be some situation–perhaps when he’s speaking ex cathedra–in which you would be able to say that his understanding is infallible. I didn’t want that to be a point for quibbling.
“If a Catholic teaching is properly understood in the light of tradition and history and the Magisterium the person reading it can be certain it is true.”
But I can say something similar about interpreting the Bible. The point is that each individual must always filter infallible sources into their own minds; our knowledge is always fallible, regardless of the infallibility of the source we’re studying. In short, who interprets the Interpreter?
Yes, we can still have “certainty”, as long as we’re clear that it’s a fallible certainty. There may be much in the infallible source that is so clear that no reasonable doubt can be entertained.
And such certainty is available to the Protestant reading the Bible.
Sean on 15 Aug 2007 at 9:38 pm #
Ah, Michael, you have brought up so many issues. It would take a long time to interact with them all.
Regarding (epistemological and teaching) authority, all Christians need to acknowledge that their acceptance of a particular authority involves faith that, if not blind, at least has some vision problems. As that authority lies outside of ourselves, we cannot have complete and certain knowledge of it:
For Roman Catholics, it is the teaching office of the church united under the bishop of Rome. If any doubts or questions come up, the recourse is too simply “trust Mother Church; she’s always right.” (Blunt, but that’s what it comes down to.)
For evangelical protestants, it is in the inerrancy of Scripture deriving from its verbal inspiration. If a doubt or problem comes up, it is met with “just wait. Eventually we will harmonize all the problem passages or resolve them through archeology, because we know the Bible is inerrant.”
Neo-orthodox protestantism rejects the presence of an infallible teaching authority and openly acknowledges its fideism. Our ultimate authority is Christ, the Word of God, of whom both Scriptures and the church testify. We come to knowledge of him by faith, and while sure, that knowledge is not 100% certain prior to the eschaton. I think it would help the conversation if (some, as needed) evangelical and catholics would acknowledge that contingency.
Sean on 15 Aug 2007 at 9:48 pm #
Regarding the deuterocanonicals, there is some relatively minor disagreement among protestants regarding their status. Some branches of the radical reformation accepted them, though I’m not sure if they (e.g., Mennonites) still do. Anglicans, I believe, view them as “useful” but at a lower level than the rest of Scripture.
I personally feel that all protestants should read the apocrypha/deuterocanonicals at least once. They’re a very mixed collection: some are valuable (1 Macc.), some interesting, some tedious, some silly (Bel & the Dragon). Reading them also reveals why most protestants and Jews reject them. They add little to what we have in the agreed books, and subjectively, they don’t seem to have the “breath of God” present in them as we see in the other books. They are clearly at a lesser level. They’re not bad, just not as inspired or authoritative.
Sean on 15 Aug 2007 at 9:58 pm #
(Forgive my back to back posts):
Regarding the establishment of the NT canon, I think many protestants do need to acknowledge more the importance of the church in this. Indeed, many evangelicals are rediscovering the importance of tradition as can be seen by the number books that have come out on the subject in recent years.
The Spirit has indeed worked through the church, and it has been an inspired witness to Christ. This role was especially important before the closing of the canon. I have confidence in the canon partially because of the faithfulness of the ancient church in their witness to Christ, just as I have confidence in the Nicene creed and the Chalcedonian formula. I do believe God used them in these matters.
Where I part company with Rome and points East is when tradition is used (from my perspective) to trump biblical revelation: the use of images, Marian dogmas, the authority of the popes and patriarchs, and so forth. Church traditions and authorities should be listened to and not rejected lightly, but at times they contradict the even more ancient and inspired witness we have in Scripture. At that point, I believe we have to go with our consciences and hold to the Bible over the church.
A Response to Fallible Canon, Infallible Scripture « Mere Humanity on 15 Aug 2007 at 11:25 pm #
[...] of “infallible” texts, c. michael patton says some pretty interesting things, click hereto read his full post. there were two things that seemed to me to be contradictory in his post. one, [...]
C Michael Patton on 15 Aug 2007 at 11:44 pm #
Chad, thanks for the comments.
You said: “So if we can accept that God wrote the books why can’t we accept that he also made sure we chose only the books he wrote?”
I don’t see any reason why we could not. There are many ways God could confirm this to us. There is no reason why an angel could not come tell us what books belong in the canon, or God’s voice from heaven, or writing on a wall. The question is not whether or not God could have, it is whether He did.
With regards to the infallible human agency, there is no reason for me to responsibly believe He did.
C Michael Patton on 15 Aug 2007 at 11:52 pm #
Athanasius, great question.
You said: “It seems like your post is primarily concerned with the NT canon. I was wondering what your thoughts were regarding the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures, because it seems that there is some suggestion of an “infallible canon†based upon statements the Lord made which are recorded in the Gospels. Should we consider the canon of the Law, Prophets and Writings to be infallible based upon those comments?”
Here are the two difficulties with this:
1. We have to know with absolute certainty what books were part of the Scriptures at the time of Christ. While I believe we can have an extremely high degree of certainty that the Protestant canon was what Christ used (not the so-called Alexandrian canon), this will still fall short of absolute infallible certainty. This is not to say that we have reason for skepticism (see illustration about the sun above), but we just cannot put this in the area of infallibility.
2. It is hard to be certain that Christ believed that the canon was closed. He did not divide His word into testaments as we do. Although there was a set number of books that were His word, these were not necessarily codified into a “closed” canon as we would have it.
This brings up another issue that I might blog on soon: Is the canon closed? I would answer yes and no, but will have to save that for later.
C Michael Patton on 15 Aug 2007 at 11:53 pm #
BTW: For my video teaching on this subject, go here and here.
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 12:02 am #
Sean,
Thanks for the great comments as usual. You said:
“Our ultimate authority is Christ, the Word of God, of whom both Scriptures and the church testify. We come to knowledge of him by faith, and while sure, that knowledge is not 100% certain prior to the eschaton. I think it would help the conversation if (some, as needed) evangelical and catholics would acknowledge that contingency.”
I would agree completely. I don’t know of many evangelicals who would disagree. However, evangelicals would certainly not see this faith as blind faith. Contingent as it may be, this faith is based upon evidences that demand assent. This is the way it is with the canon. We believe it to be the right canon, not simply because we have warm fuzzies when we read it. Neither because mom and dad told us. We believe it because history plays out the providential workings of God to preserve His word and codify it into a set canon.
Hope that makes sense. You and I might part ways when it comes to the definition of faith that we use.
kurtvader on 16 Aug 2007 at 1:42 am #
Sean
Where I part company with Rome and points East is when tradition is used (from my perspective) to trump biblical revelation: the use of images, Marian dogmas, the authority of the popes and patriarchs, and so forth. Church traditions and authorities should be listened to and not rejected lightly, but at times they contradict the even more ancient and inspired witness we have in Scripture. At that point, I believe we have to go with our consciences and hold to the Bible over the church
This is not heading towards Constantinople but it is heading towards Wittenberg. You should follow through
Kurt
Sean on 16 Aug 2007 at 1:59 am #
Michael,
I think we’re saying essentially the same thing. Some of the definitions and distinctions I’m trying to make are a little hard to express.
I don’t like the phrase “blind faith,” but inherent in the kind of faith we are talking about is an element of having to trust because we cannot see or know fully. There is a difference between you and me, on one side, and Mary Magdalene and Peter and Thomas, on the other, when it comes to our faith experience of, say, the risen Christ. The historical distance causes a gap, what Lessing referred to as a “broad ugly ditch.” I disagree with how broad it is–I think the historical situation and God’s providential working in it, to steal your phrase, make the case very strong and the ditch not so broad–but I do acknowledge that there is a gap. I agree with Kierkegaard and Barth that we can only cross it and obtain what God desires for us by a leap of faith (Heb. 11).
I do see a resistance to this aspect of faith in that section of the evangelical spectrum that approaches and includes fundamentalism. In this perspective, the inerrancy of the Bible is accepted as a demonstrated given. There is no need for any sort of contingency or doubt because everything you need to know is clearly laid out in Scripture; the Bible fully bridges the gap. Uncertainties can legitimately arise only from ignorance or prideful rebellion. For the former, one simply needs to study the Bible more to resolve it. For the latter, one needs to repent. There is no room in this perspective for an unresolved uncertainty. To me, this is not justification by faith but justification by knowledge.
The same message also comes out of Roman Catholicism, except substitute “the church” for “the Bible.” We protestants don’t swim the Tiber because we’re either ignorant of catholic teaching or in rebellion. There’s no legitimate third option.
And at this point, I think I’m steering away from the central theme of this post. Sorry, but I appreciate your providing this venue for discussing faith and theology with evangelicals. Mostly we’re pentecostals or somewhat “liberal” mainliners (or both!) around here.
Sean on 16 Aug 2007 at 2:04 am #
Kurt,
Sorry if that was unclear. What I mean is that I disagree with both Rome and with the Eastern churches. I’m actually way past Wittenburg, past Dordt, embracing Aldersgate and Azusa Street with a stop in Basel to kiss Papa Barth.
ChadS on 16 Aug 2007 at 8:39 am #
Michael,
Your wrote: “We have to know with absolute certainty what books were part of the Scriptures at the time of Christ.”
There is a slight problem with that. The Jews at the time didn’t even agree among themselves what was considered canonical. The Pharisees only accepted the Books of Moses. Palestinian Jews considered the Wisdom books and Prophets as scripture. Among Greek speaking Jews the Alexandrian or Septuagint version of the OT was in circulation and that one contains the Deuterocanonical books not in Protestant OTs. So if we accept that Jesus intended for us to consider only the OT he was familiar with as canon then we must explain why his earliest followers used another version? Or, if we accept that Christ didn’t even believe the canon to be closed then it is entirely possible that the Deuterocanonical books used by the Orthodox & Catholics are indeed canonical — and therefore should be accepted.
So even without an infallible human authority available to clarify these issues for us there seems enough reason to at least consider these Deuterocanonical books as inspired.
ChadS
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 9:18 am #
I’ll try to be brief.
Michael—you hold a contradictory position. You say you believe in an inspired, inerrant, and infallible Scripture of 66 specific books, and then say that the canon may be uncertain, and in other areas you have agreed with removing portions of the NT. That makes the Scriptures you supposedly accept as inspired, inerrant, and infallible also DUBIOUS (at least in your opinion). And your “opinion†is where the trouble starts. Your explanation of HOW you can hold this contradictory position is the inherent problem with your ENTIRE hermeneutic. You rest your conclusion on “probability†that you arrive at through your gift of human reasoning.
Probability.
How “probable†is a man rising from the dead?
Jesus Himself rebuked Peter for this sort of thing saying, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.â€â€”Probability is MOOT when it comes to the Truth of God.
Throughout Jewish history God acted in totally IMPROBABLE ways. Many Jews of Jesus’ time rejected Jesus because He was an IMPROBABLE Messiah. And in John 6, many of Jesus’ disciples left Him because His message was IMPROBABLE. The entire New Testament attests to the reality of the IMPROBABILITY of God humbling Himself to become man and allowing the created to murder the Creator. Paul himself describes the IMPROBABLE humbling of Jesus in Philippians, and Jesus repeatedly explained the paradox of IMPROBABILITY that is ABSOLUTELY the final Truth: the first will be last and the last will be first in the Kingdom. So, to rest your conclusion on human reasoning based on your perception of “probability†is totally against the message of the NT Scriptures and ultimately treads heavily upon the Protestant position of Sola Fide.
You say that to have (as Catholics do) “infallible certainty†about Christ’s revelations is to set “the standard so high that only God Himself could attain to it.†Yes—that is correct. I do not have faith in my OWN reasoning as to what is “probable,†I have faith in God—in Jesus—the MOST IMPROBABLE reality of all! That is how I can rationally have faith with “absolute certaintyâ€â€”my faith is not in a Magisterium that is infallible by human means, I have faith in a Magisterium that is infallible by SUPERNATURAL means. The infallibility is God’s and I have certain and absolute faith in God.
Now—this is not to say that my human reasoning does not have a place in our faith—of course our faith should have a rational basis or else God would not have bestowed that gift of reason upon man—but ultimately, faith in our rational conclusions HAS to be superseded by our faith in God—or else our faith is a sham: the sham is that man puts faith in himself—his own reasoning (just as Eve did, seduced by Satan)– rather than faith in the IMPROBABLE God.
Paul speaks of this rational faith in Romans 1: “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.†God is not out to trick us into “blind faith†but rather provides the means to use our reason to arrive at a logical faith. This is where your Historical-Grammatical hermeneutic is rightly applied. Your very hermeneutic provides the means one needs to arrive at a faith in God’s mode of revelation that is that is paradoxically faith with infallible certainty—a certainty that mirrors the paradox of the God-Man and the paradox of His Life, Suffering, Death, and Resurrection—a Truth that is both IMPROBABLE, and yet FACT.
I have repeatedly offered the evidence per your Historical-Grammatical hermeneutic as to why the Catholic Church holds to the infallible authority of the Magisterium and I have repeatedly pointed out that this authority is how Catholics arrive at a faith in the inspired nature of the Scriptures (see the explanation of the Levitical authority symbolized in the “keys†and the authority of “binding and loosingâ€). I have offered the evidence and the explanation as to why “We believe†as we do and it is rational based upon your own hermeneutic. You have yet to offer the explanation of the CRITERIA by which you accept the specific books included in the Scriptures as “inspired†and disregard other concurrent or earlier texts as not inspired. What you provide in this article of yours is simply an explanation that you believe what you believe because you believe it—asserting all the while some “epistemological†probability can lead you to your supposed rational conclusion concerning the infallibility of the books of Scripture. What you DON’T offer is the evidence of WHY you believe what you believe. If you abandon your own hermeneutic to arrive at your conclusions—what good is your hermeneutic? Rather than asserting the obvious—that man is fallible—explain the rational reason why you have faith at all in the Scriptures. A deity humbling himself to his creatures and allowing his humiliation and death in order to give life to those completely undeserving is the MOST improbable TRUTH of all. Please provide your –CRITERIA— for determining some books “inspired.â€
Felicity
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 9:41 am #
Chad,
You said: “The Pharisees only accepted the Books of Moses. Palestinian Jews considered the Wisdom books and Prophets as scripture. Among Greek speaking Jews the Alexandrian or Septuagint version of the OT was in circulation and that one contains the Deuterocanonical books not in Protestant OTs.”
There are many problems here when you start supposing a standard Greek canon that contained the Deuterocanonical books. 1) Even in the fourth century the supposed Greek canon was not stable. Look at the differences between A, B, Aleph. They all contain different books. 2) We don’t have any copies of the supposed Greek canon that dates back before the fourth century and the ones that we do have are Christian in origin. This was nearly three centuries since the Christians broke ties with the Jews. 3) Even if the the apostles used a Greek canon that had the Deuteros appended to it as A, B, and Aleph, this does not prove that they believed them to be inspired since even the Christian community in the fourth century appended them to the manuscripts yet were not sure if they were inspired.
This is why most scholarship would say that the 22 book Jewish canon is the most reliable witness to the state of the canon at the time of Christ.
BTW: Just so you know. I don’t have any problem with the Deuteros. In fact, I have often said that if they are part of the Bible, they don’t change anything. We may have some historical problems with 2 Macc, but I could worm my way out of them! Therefore, I am not really fighting against them, just trying to be responsible with the evidence.
kurtvader on 16 Aug 2007 at 9:46 am #
Felicity,
I do not see how yours is different in principle with that of Michael’s. You believe in God who is infallible to guide the church, Michael can also say the same, he can say that his choice can be infallibly be protected by God since he is part of the church, though he may be using probabilistic arguments in the process. You just have a different “Magisterium”.
I fail to be convinced by your position, ie that yours is methodically superior. Are you telling us that the Magisterium do things out of thin air ? Does it not use reason of some sort in its deliveration? What ever your answer, I will simply ask Michael to assert the same for his method.
But can you see my point?
Kurt
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 9:49 am #
Felicity, you are all over the place. This is a single blog with a particular subject. Frankly, I am really lost with regards to your post.
You say that I am contradicting myself by saying that I believe in inerrancy yet don’t have absolute assurance as to the books? Did you miss the entire point of the thread. We all lack absolute infallible assurance since we start with fallibility. Further, there is no contradiction at all. The object of my faith can have higher qualities than the one expressing the faith. I don’t have to have infallibility to believe in something infallible. If this is the case, belief in God is out of the question, period.
As to the rest of your examples and the Catholic church, that is getting off the subject too far.
Thanks again for your continued contribution…even if you are all over the place!
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 9:51 am #
OK, Kurt said it better
I should have waited another 2 minutes!
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:07 am #
Concerning you statement about Peter, since this is not so much the subject of this blog, I refer to what Vance said in Dan’s last post:
“Catholics swallow the blue pill very early and accept a series of presumptions which form the foundation of their current position:
1. That the Scriptures in Matthew DO indicate that Peter was meant to be “THE†leader of the Church, and not just “A†leader.
2. That this authority was meant to continue throughout his life and on to Rome.
3. That the idea of appointing leaders was meant to be exclusive to the Apostles.
4. That this appointment authority was meant to create an apostolic succession process.
5. That process was meant to create some sort of “magisterium†authority for the Church body.
6. That this magisterium authority was meant to extend to all the areas that the Catholic Church developed it into, including ongoing revelation.”
Concerning the subject of this post, the point is we all start with fallibility. Therefore any argument which attempts to invalidate the fallible belief in an infallible authority (canon or Church) applies to all. Would you disagree with that?
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:17 am #
I might further add that this supposed solutions (placing an infallible middle-man to solve the problem) is the same method used by those in the King James Only camp. There argument is that if you believe in an inerrant Scripture you must have an inerrant text. Their “magisterium” is the translators of the 1611 King James. Yet, in the end they must rely upon their own fallible belief in the validity of the 1611 translators themselves. The evidence must decide. It is a parallel situation to the Roman Catholic claim for a magisterial authority in the church.
The point: we all have a fallible belief in an infallible authority. In the words of Vance, “which pill do you swallow?” It would be irresponsible for me to swallow a pill for pragmatic reasons, either the RC pill or the KJV Only pill, that only puts an epistemological band aid on the problem.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:24 am #
Kurt (and Michael):
God’s revelation throughout history supports a Magisterium and does NOT support individual interpretation of revelation. I have given the evidence–would you like it repeated? Where is Michael’s evidence that his “individual determination of probability” is supported anywhere in history or Scriptures? It’s pure tautology that he refuses to back up with evidence.
F.
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:26 am #
Felicity, let us stick to the subject for now. Do you believe that we both have a fallible belief in an infallible authority? If so, then the argument that seeks to discredit the Protestant belief in a the canon (i.e. we have a fallible belief in an infallible canon) has no force. Do you agree? Why or why not?
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:37 am #
Michael, What is the basis for your “fallible” belief? Please answer that question. Of course I am fallible. Of course the individuals in the Magisterium are fallible. The Catholic belief is that GOD is infallible and that GOD protects the Church in it’s infallible handing on of the revelation. I have offered the evidence that gives me assurance in trusting the Church–the history of God’s means of revelation to man. What is the basis for YOUR trust?
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 11:10 am #
Since it’s obvious the defense of the Catholic position on the infallibility charism of the Magisterium is questioned again, here is the historical/Scriptural evidence that I, as a fallible Catholic individual, can confidently accept the infallible authority of the Catholic Magisterium as given by God:
SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE:
Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed [1] in heaven.â€
Revelation 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Revelation 3:7 To the Church in Philadelphia
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
Revelation 20:1 The Thousand Years
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit[1] and a great chain.
HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:
The expression “to bear the key on his shoulder” denotes possession of office (comp. Isa. xxii. 22). In the time of Ezra, four Levites, the chief porters, were in charge of the key of the Temple (I Chron. ix. 27). The key as a symbol of authority is also met with in the Talmud:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=191&letter=K
SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE:
Matthew 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed [1] in heaven.
Acts 9:13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.†15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.â€
Isaiah 22:22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:
The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra, the Pharisees, says Josephus (”B J.” i, 5, § 2), “became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit whom they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind.” This does not mean that, as the learned men, they merely decided what, according to the Law, was forbidden or allowed, but that they possessed and exercised the power of tying or untying a thing by the spell of their divine authority, just as they could, by the power vested in them, pronounce and revoke an anathema upon a person. The various schools had the power “to bind and to loose”; that is, to forbid and to permit (Ḥag. 3b); and they could bind any day by declaring it a fast-day (Meg. Ta’an. xxii.; Ta’an. 12a; Yer. Ned. i. 36c, d). This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age or in the Sanhedrin (see Authority), received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, ix.; Mak. 23b).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1073&letter=B&search=binding
HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:
The power or right of deciding the Law, in dubious cases, or of interpreting, modifying, or amplifying, and occasionally of abrogating it, as vested in the Rabbis as its teachers and expounders.
In Biblical times the Law was chiefly in charge of the priests and the Levites; and the high court of justice at Jerusalem, which formed the highest tribunal to decide grave and difficult questions, was also composed of priests and Levites (Deut. xvii. 9, 18; xxxi. 9; xxxiii. 10; Jer. xviii. 18; Mal. ii. 7; II Chron. xix. 8, 11; xxxi. 4). In the last two pre-Christian centuries and throughout the Talmudical times the Scribes (”Soferim”), also called “The Wise” (”Ḥakamim”), who claimed to have received the true interpretation of the Law as “the tradition of the Elders or Fathers” in direct line from Moses, the Prophets, and the men of the Great Synagogue
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=2154&letter=A
Connect the dots through the VERY WORDS OF JESUS:
Matthew 16:7 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [2] I will build my church, and the gates of hell [3] shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed [4] in heaven.â€
I can also offer many Scriptural evidences of the handing on of Apostolic Authority, not the least of which is the laying on of hands for Matthias, the replacement for the Apostle Judas.
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 11:14 am #
Felicity, please keep on subject. You are going way too broad here. No one is speaking about the validity of either the Scripture or Magisterial authority, simply about the claim that one cannot have a fallible belief in something infallible.
Save this good stuff for another blog post if needed.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 11:54 am #
Paragraphs 2, 3, and 4 of your essay are off topic?
Later you erroneously represent Catholic belief in the Magisterium by claiming, “The smoke screen of epistemological certainty that seems to be provided by having a living infallible authority (Magisterium) disappears when we realize that we all start with fallibility.†The Magisterium is not an individual—it is a body of people who function as a unit when speaking infallibly on issues of faith and morals. I have already stated that my goal here is to correct misrepresentations of Catholic beliefs. Your basic assumption is fallacious.
The entire essay is about justifying your belief, but every time you’re asked to you won’t. Even the link to your lecture on the topic avoids the issue and you even go so far as to say the canon isn’t closed. That’s patently heretical. I just got done responding to Dr. Wallace on the prior blog entry letting him know why I think it’s important that you recognize that “you fellows here at Parchment and Pen are not merely offering your personal observations—you are “teachers†and “preachers†by virtue of the “Theology Program†that is at the root of this blog site. You assume an authority, and when you do that, you are responsible to be precise and truthful—and you also assume the burden of being challenged on that authority. If you propose to be an authority on the topic of theology, it is only proper that your feet be held to the fireâ€
I am completely on topic. It’s a matter of record here—you are basically saying you believe what you believe because you believe it. Perhaps you should re-read your own essay—I’m not the one with the circuitous logic.
Vance on 16 Aug 2007 at 12:01 pm #
Felicity, I think the point is that somewhere along the line, you made your own choice regarding the authority issue. Whether it is based on reason or faith or a combination, you HAD to have made a choice INDEPENDENT of the guidance of the Church and the Magisterium to begin with. You had to have reviewed those Scriptures and reviewed that evidence and determined, ON YOUR OWN, that the Church did, indeed, have the authority it claimed. You can not say you accept the Church’s authority based on an interpretation of Scripture and history which you just accepted from the Catholic Church. That would be circular. The Catholic Church can not have the authority because it has the authority to say it has the authority, etc.
So, when you made that independent inquiry and analysis, you were doing so based solely on your fallible reason and faith, not on what the Church said. Unless, of course, your process actually WAS circular to begin with. Does that make sense?
Michael, getting to the point of your post, and the various points raised, it tends to reinforce the approach I have been leaning toward more and more, which might differ slightly from yours (or maybe is just conceptualized differently). It is a bit fuzzy, but it works for me. It kind of goes like this:
I start with the fact that the Christian Faith is based upon a relationship between God and Man, and so involves the things of God, which are beyond our comprehension, being conveyed and expressed to our human intellect. This can only be done in language we can understand and using concepts we can grasp, usually in the form of analogies and metaphors, none of which are perfect fits, but if we read them correctly, sufficient to convey the essential message of our relationship to God.
Then, I consider the fact that the Gospel message was first given orally, and the doctrines and teachings of Christianity developed without any written text whatsoever. That Gospel message was presented differently by each of the presenters, with God inspiring the speaker, but allowing that writer to use his own voice, choices of words, choices of analogies and metaphors, etc, to convey the essential message. It was not always pretty (consider the wide varieties of how the Gospel is presented today in pulpits and through missionaries around the world!), but God blessed it because it contained the true message of God’s love and plan of Salvation. Were these messages, these sermons, infallible? Of course not, but they contained the infallible message. Soon, letters were being written and Gospels were being written and histories (like Acts) were being written in the same way. Fallible writers presenting the infallible true message, but still using their own voice and approaches.
Next, before the message could get too far from the source which, like the game of “telephone” causes distortions, God put his hand on certain of these many letters and gospels which he had inspired to be written, but not dictated, because they contained the essence and important elements of His true and infallible message to us. Now, were these texts, written by fallible humans, infallible in every sense of the word? Could they contain “error” in some aspects of history or science or chronology or use analogies and metaphors that could only be extended so far, but STILL be contain the infallible and inerrant MESSAGE? I think so.
Then God guided the early Church to use these texts, pass them around, learn from them and eventually gather them together as God’s choice of the best of the early writings, texts that contained His true and inerrant message in the best way such Holy things of God could be described in mere human language.
I think of it this way. If Stephen Hawking was going to describe quantam physics to me, he would have to use language and symbols and analogies and concepts I could grasp and use. Would these be entirely perfect reflections of what was truly going on? No, almost assuredly not. But, they would not be in error either, since it was understood that it was an ACCOMMODATION, as Augustine would put it, to my own understanding.
So, I treat all of the texts as HOLY, chosen by God, containing His perfect Message, but I am perfectly fine viewing them as written in language that is written by humans who are doing their best to explain things which are “of God” by means of accommodation to our limited understanding. So, if Paul and James contradict each other, I do not get all worked up over it, I see it as the natural result of two different people’s “take” on something bigger than them. But, since God DID choose both of these texts to be part of the holy Scripture, I must work to figure out how they work together.
God could have inspired as single monolithic treatise. The fact that he chose, instead, this varied tapestry of presentations is, itself, evidence we must consider. I think that evidence is telling us that we must GLEAN from these varied works the full truth. The BIG PICTURE.
So, when I approach this issue of “how do we know which texts were the correct ones” I am much less uptight about it. I believe, both historically, and as a matter of faith, that these texts accurately convey the essence of what was being preached and taught by the earliest Church leaders. As an historian, I would have chosen the same books based on just about any reasonable process. But I don’t CARE whether whether they are absolutely accurate copies of those texts any more than I care whether Luke paraphrased some of Paul or Peter’s teachings in Acts. It is a snapshot of The Gospel, as it was being taught, that God preserved for us, and He preserved it because it was coming from the earliest times, thus providing the Church with a REASONABLE touchstone for doctrine and practice in our Christian life. Reasonable in the sense that “earlier is better and more likely to be accurate” sense.
Remember, that is what the early Fathers did when choosing these texts. They did not wait for magical guidance of the Spirit. They approached it LOGICALLY, using a rubric of tests for each text to determine it was REASONABLE to include it. I happen to think they got it right, both as a matter of history and because I trust God to maintain the essence of His message.
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 12:20 pm #
Felicity, although this is not the subject of this blog AT ALL, your accusations cause me to have to clarify for others what you misreprented completely by not telling the whole story.
For the record, I said that the “closed” canon is simply a phrase we use to describe the fact that God has not been giving any inspired text for the last 2000 years. What I said was that WE did not close the canon if it is “closed,” God did. And being such, if He should so decide, He can add to it. While I don’t expect him to add to it, it is certainly up to Him, not you or the Catholic church. But again, the concept of a closed canon is not the subject at hand.
Please stay to the subject and quit getting so defensive. You are a bright gal, but your rhetoric and defensive attitude will gain no following nor cordial discourse on this blog. This is not a debate and all the issues cannot be covered in one blog. Please stick to the subject. If you don’t agree that you are off subject, that is fine, but you must remember this is a Protestant evangelical blog not Catholic Answers. While we deal with apologetic issues, you still must respect the particular subject of each post.
In the end, please go out of your way to be respectful. This means that you must keep the the subject the author determines. It is not a place to “call people out” on whatever you please. It is not your place to determine the direction of each post. If we were to allow this for everyone (which we have allowed for you for quite some time), then there would be no focus and we would not be responsible teachers.
ChadS on 16 Aug 2007 at 1:44 pm #
Michael,
You said: “This is why most scholarship would say that the 22 book Jewish canon is the most reliable witness to the state of the canon at the time of Christ.”
Your premise for accepting the Jewish version of the OT you prefer are a bit faulty. First off you seem to rely on the testimony of “scholars” for part of your determination of what should and shouldn’t be in the Bible. Elsewhere you argued that some sections of the Gospel should be relegated to footnotes.
Now you say that the Jewish canon had 22 books. You accept 39 books. Obviously the version of the 1st century Jewish canon you accept and Jesus accepted are two different things. Why is your list 17 books longer?
As I cited before the Jews at this time didn’t even have a closed canon. Thats why mainstream Jews all had different views of what was canonical and what wasn’t. An attempt to form a closed canon didn’t occur until the 1st century and that was in a response to the Christians using their scriptures to prove the divinity and messiahship of Jesus. By the time the Jews attempted to define their canon Pentecost had already occurred and the Holy Spirit was now guiding the Church. The Christians had become people of the new covenant.
Michael, you quoted at length Vance’s post about Catholics swallowing the “blue pill.” I posted a response that dealt with what he believes are “presumptions.” Catholic beliefs in infallible authority are based on Scripture and Tradition and as Felicity pointed out these understandings are based strongly in Jewish tradition. There is ample historical evidence to point to the Papacy and Apostolic succession as Catholics understand them. They were not invented out of whole cloth in the 300s. Our beliefs in authority are not circular just because Protestants and Evangelicals reject the very concepts.
It seems to me that Felicity is trying to stay on topic as much as possible. She is only responding to misrepresentations of what Catholics believe or understand that are posted here and is trying to correct those. We should allow half-truths about Catholic teachings and positions to go unchallenged here just because it is off topic — even though they are slipped in other posts that are “on topic?”
ChadS
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 2:34 pm #
Chad,
What is wrong with relying upon scholars? Sure, their integrity has to be checked, but even the Catholic church relies on scholars to determine many issues that are in turn dogmatized or clarified (i.e. evolution, text of Scripture, research into tradition, etc.) The assumption is that the scholars represent scholarship. That is why a critical method is so important. You can’t outsouce your theology to one scholar’s opinion just as you can’t to the Church (in my opinion).
The 22 book canon of the Palestinian Jews is the same as the 39 book canon of Protestants. The books are just divided differently (1, 2 Samuel would be one book, 1, 2 Kings, and 12 of the prophets would be combined, etc.) It is the common consensus that the Jews in Palestine accepted a canon that did not include the Deuterocanonical books. Even Catholics would often admit to this.
I agree that there was no “closed” canon at the time of Christ since “closed” is a rather loaded designation. I would rather say that there was a recognized canon. No one has the right to “close” anything. The designation “Old Testament” did not exist at the time of Christ. It was simply the Law, Prophets, and the writings, or, more commonly called, “the Scriptures.” It was recognized that God had not added to these Scriptures in the last few hundred years through a verified prophet.
Concerning your view of infallible Tradition and apostolic succession, I will just have to say again that, from my perspective, this takes much reading into the text something that is not there and reading into early church something that is not there. I agree with Vance’s points. They are solid. I am not saying you don’t have reasons for your belief, but I am saying that in my opinion the reasons are very circular and completely lacking in substance that goes beyond pragmatics. In the end, we are going to just have to disagree for now. I do, however, understand very well the issues and the arguments (as I have been a student of these issues for quite some time), I just think they are extremely weak.
Remember, just because someone calls your argument circular does not mean that they are “misunderstanding” what you are saying. I believe that all arguments to some degree are circular (i.e. the assumption of logic to establish a logical position). But some circular reasoning is outside the bounds, in my opinion, of responsible belief. Therefore, when we call the Catholic argument for authority circular, it may be because we DO understand the issues. It will just have to be one of those that we let people decide upon.
Chad, I understand you both you and Felicity love the Lord and that you are trying to honor Him in your defense. We do have very different understandings about these things. The best we can do is deal with the issues one at a time in a fair and balanced manner. But remember, fairness does not amount to concession that the other side has good arguments. While I understand why, both intellectually and emotionally, Catholics are Catholics, I strongly disagree with the way that Scripture is handled by reading into it things that just are not there and the basic outsourcing of your theology so that the conclusions that you must to come to are preset by your authority. That is why in Catholicism, critical scholarship (esp. critical biblical scholarship) necessarily means protesting scholarship. In other words, to be a true critical Catholic critical scholar is somewhat of an oxymoron since you are not allowed to be a critic of your beliefs (otherwise you are a Protestant!).
With these issue of Canonicity, you do not have the right, according to your submission to the Church, to consider that the Protestant canon might be right. Therefore, what good is it to argue?
In the end, the subject of this blog remains the same. All of us have an authority. All of us are fallible. Therefore, we are all fallible people seeking to believe in an infallible authority.
Can we concede to agree upon this:
That Protestants have a fallible canon of infallible books is not a good apologetic to use against Protestants since we are all fallible? If I am wrong, why?
That is the subject at hand, not the evidences for each of our authorities. It is a blog of epistemological assumptions that we bring to the table, not, at this point, of historical or biblical arguments for the subject of those assumptions.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 2:45 pm #
Michael said, “For the record, I said that the “closed†canon is simply a phrase we use to describe the fact that God has not been giving any inspired text for the last 2000 years. What I said was that WE did not close the canon if it is “closed,†God did. And being such, if He should so decide, He can add to it. While I don’t expect him to add to it, it is certainly up to Him, not you or the Catholic church.
I would like to add, so that the record is entirely complete, something you said 1 minute into your lecture you linked to on this blog in post #12 (cited to demonstrate i am on topic) called “What are the facts concerning the canon?â€. You state that the way Scripture is deemed part of the Canon is that the Body of Christ recognizes it because “my sheep hear my voice.†Further, you added that if the Body of Christ decides something is not “inspired scripture needed for our time†and decided to “if everybody in the community, or half of the community said, ‘This is not part of the Canon’ and that went on and on throughout history, I would say ‘hey…it’s not the voice of God…get it out.â€
I “believe†those criteria (which you wouldn’t state outright so i had to watch your lecture) to be anti-Biblical and anti-historical and as i already noted: heretical. You yourself explained in your lecture that you didn’t know how the Jews accepted something as Canonical—they “just recognized it, accepted it .I would ask that you consider that your confusion might be answered with a quick look into the Catholic reasoning for Magisterial authority—i.e. my post #28.
I do not think I have been off topic, but if you wish to assert your authority to this “combox commenter†I have to comply. I’m not sure I think that is very much in the spirit of freedom of expression, but…that’s your prerogative I suppose.
Felicity
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 2:49 pm #
Thanks Felicity, you are used to submitting to an authority anyway
. I am sure that others can just go to the video and watch it. I think it is very compelling!
For more about issues of the Protestant understanding of canon, here is a good resource.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 3:13 pm #
I’m used to submitting to an authority that is protected from error by God–but you are aware i am an ex-Protestant for very good reason well evidenced here.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 3:25 pm #
CMP: Catholics are Catholics, I strongly disagree with the way that Scripture is handled by reading into it things that just are not there and the basic outsourcing of your theology so that the conclusions that you must to come to are preset by your authority.
REPLY: This is a false statement about Catholic belief.
CMP: you are not allowed to be a critic of your beliefs (otherwise you are a Protestant!).
REPLY: This is a false statement about Catholic belief.
CMP: according to your submission to the Church, to consider that the Protestant canon might be right.
REPLY: The Protestant Canon IS right—it’s just missing some important parts.
CMP: Can we concede to agree upon this:
That Protestants have a fallible canon of infallible books is not a good apologetic to use against Protestants since we are all fallible? If I am wrong, why?
REPLY: You are wrong because your criteria for Canonical Scripture is that which is historically accepted by the Body of Christ. The stuff removed from the Protestant Canon was historically held to by the Body of Christ until the so-called “reformers†chopped up the Sacred text. By your own criteria, a “MAJORITY†of the Body of Christ, a “big majority†(as you state in your lecture I cited—right at the same point I sited—1 minute in) must agree…Protestants were and still are a minority when you look at the entire body of Christ—especially if you divvy them up by their multiplicity of denominations.
Vance on 16 Aug 2007 at 3:31 pm #
Chad,
To clarify, I am not saying in the least that there is not evidence to support the Catholic positions regarding authority, etc, even though I might disagree regarding the weight of various pieces of the evidence. This is not a question, really, of whether the Catholic Church ultimately HAS that authority (although we veer off into that discussion in most threads!), but how we go about accepting or rejecting that authority.
The way that many Catholics get themselves into circular reasoning is that they base their acceptance of the Church’s authority on the Church’s interpretation of Scripture and position on Sacred Tradition. Why do they accept that particular interpretation of Scripture and accept the validity of the Sacred Tradition? Because of the Church teaches that it is correct, and they are loyal Catholics submitted to it’s Magisterium. You can see the circularity there. And I think you would agree that this is not a proper basis for acceptance of authority.
Now, not all Catholics do that, I am sure. It is very possible to accept the authority of the Catholic Church based on legitimate and logically acceptable grounds. It would only require a person to review the evidence of Scripture and History, with the guidance of the Spirit, and conclude INDEPENDENTLY that the Church does, indeed, have that authority. At that point, you would be required by your faith and conscience to accept the Church’s teaching all the way down the line. (ie, “swallow the blue pill”)
The point is very simple, really. At some point, the only way to legitimately accept the authority of the Catholic Church on all these matters is to do so OUTSIDE the mandate of the Church, based on INDEPENDENT interpretation of at least the threshold question of authority. Now, that does not mean entirely on your own and without guidance from those more knowledgeable, standing on the shoulders of giants. And, of course, some of those giants pointing toward the validity of the Catholic Church’s authority are very likely to be Catholic giants!
But, ultimately, the choice must be made freely and independently in order to avoid circularity.
So, this becomes an issue when a Catholic raises the question of “upon whose authority do you decide X or Y?” My response goes right back: “upon whose authority did you make that first, independent decision that that Catholic Church had authority in the first place?”
The answer is the same, I think. It is our God-given reason and the guidance of the Spirit, ultimately leading to a conviction one way or the other. And, as Michael has been pointing out, it is THAT conviction which can be fallible. All of us fallible Christians make at least that one decision in the same way, based on our own responsibility, outside any magisterium or mandate of the Catholic Church. In doing so, you reviewed, analyzed, prayed and concluded the evidence supported the authority of the Catholic Church and walked through that door (to use another concept). But, if you did NOT reach that independent conclusion (as I did not, and as Michael did not), would you not agree that it would be wrong to walk through that door anyway?
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 3:38 pm #
VANCE: (ie, “swallow the blue pillâ€)
REPLY: Not crazy about that allusion. The Matrix is very Gnostic and it is kind of a slam saying we Cat’licks like to be duped by a false reality. That might be viewed as not very “irenic.”
Vance on 16 Aug 2007 at 3:50 pm #
I understand. Not how I meant it, of course, but I can see it being taken the wrong way. My meaning was simply “buying into the whole program”. I used the metaphor of “walking through that door” instead later in the post.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 3:55 pm #
Maybe it’s the RED pill and you’re just colorblind
ChadS on 16 Aug 2007 at 4:00 pm #
Michael,
You said: “I believe that all arguments to some degree are circular.”
I’m not a logician but this seems to call into question humanity’s entire belief structure from math to science and theology and everything in between. This makes even logically true statements untrue and logically untrue statements even more untrue. This is very nihilistic and makes everything we know or believe something to be doubted — similar to Descartes “Evil Genius.”
You said: “In other words, to be a true critical Catholic critical scholar is somewhat of an oxymoron since you are not allowed to be a critic of your beliefs.”
Since the beginning of Christianity, Catholicism and scholarship have gone hand in hand. Last week your blog had a brief biography of Athanasius. He used Greek philosophical ideas to defend and help develop Christian doctrine concerning Christ’s true nature. Before any council put the seal of approval on his interpretation it was his opinion up to that time.
Great schools of Biblical exegesis existed in both Eastern and Western Christianity. The greatest minds of their times studied the Bible, delivered homilies on the various texts and wrote defenses of Christian theology. All these activities went on without running afoul of authority. They were developing and delivering sound scholarship and textual criticism even while remaining true to Tradition and Authority. So it is quite possible to be both scholarly and a faithful Catholic.
ChadS
Vance on 16 Aug 2007 at 4:05 pm #
BTW, I was just listening to Catholic Answers Live from last week (I get it by podcast), and I found out that I am going to heaven even outside the Catholic Church! Gotta Love Vatican II!
Josh on 16 Aug 2007 at 4:42 pm #
Chad,
I don’t think Michael was saying that there isn’t Scholarship (and good at that) within the Roman Catholic Church, both now and in the past. I think what Michael is trying to point out is that, once the Church dogmatizes something, by its very definition of infalliabilty it cannot revoke its claims if later it desires to because its hands are “tiedâ€.
This seems to by why you have different “interpretations†of certain doctrines coming out rather than “new†doctrines, and I think this is the point that Michael is trying to express when he says, “In other words, to be a true critical Catholic critical scholar is somewhat of an oxymoron since you are not allowed to be a critic of your beliefsâ€.
Correct if I’m wrong about what you were trying to say Michael, or if I have mis-understood the Catholic position, because as far as I understand it, once something is dogmatized, it is set in stone as and infalliable teaching.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 5:32 pm #
Vance–you’re not “outside the Church”–you’re part of the Church founded by Christ simply by being Christian (and that Church is the One Holy and Apostolic Church
). However–there is no assurance of heaven until you find yourself standing before God to render your account and he finds you worthy to be counted among His people.
ChadS on 16 Aug 2007 at 6:08 pm #
Josh,
What Michael is saying is that to properly do critical Biblical scholarship one must disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church. He implies that a Catholic to be intellectually honest and faithful to the evidence must then disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church.
You say: “once the Church dogmatizes something, by its very definition of infalliabilty it cannot revoke its claims if later it desires to because its hands are “tiedâ€.”
Josh you’re assuming the Church just does these things willy nilly without any thought to scholarship. Thats an erroneous assumption. The Church approaches these issues of faith and morals with great seriousness, thought, prayer, discussion and research. Once it has properly discerned where the Holy Spirit is leading the Church then any prounouncements are made. There then is no need for “retractions” or “revoking” of doctrines later down the line. There is no tying of the hands since the Church entered into this freely and was fully aware of what it was doing.
You said: “This seems to by why you have different “interpretations†of certain doctrines coming out rather than “new†doctrines.”
Josh where has the Church offered new interpretations of old doctrines that stood them on their head? The answer is nowhere. Now what may indeed happen is new generations of scholars will offer new understandings of old doctrines but in no way do they overturn the previous infallible understanding. Don’t forget the pastoral needs of the Church changes over the years so emphasis may change in certain teachings — but nonetheless it is always there.
ChadS
Vance on 16 Aug 2007 at 6:57 pm #
I don’t think the point is that to do proper biblical scholarship one MUST disagree with the Catholic Church, but instead that one must BE ABLE to disagree with the Catholic Church. If you are constrained by a magisterial authority that can not be contradicted in some areas, then it is apologetics, not true scholarship. At least on those dogmatic issues.
And, to be fair, I pointed out that same problem with Christian scholarship in general, including protestant scholarship, a while back. To the extent we are dealing with an issue that is within our realm of faith, even when we are presenting “just the evidence”, we are still doing apologetics, not “pure” scholarship.
The distinction is whether you are letting the evidence guide your conclusion or are you starting with the conclusion and finding the best evidence to support it. You can’t say it is the former unless you are also willing to say, in all honesty, that if the evidence pointed contrary to the Church’s opinion, you would follow that evidence against the Church. For the Protestant, the same is true regarding our Christian believes held as absolutes.
Now, of course, apologetics can still provide great “scholarship” in many senses, but not in the objective and “pure” sense.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 7:10 pm #
I would stop being Catholic if the Catholic Church Dogmatically contradicted a Dogmatically defined belief. For example: if the Church started teaching from the Magisterium that Christ wasn’t substantially present in the Eucharist—I’m gone. We are not automatons receiving signals from the mothership as to what to think. When the Church is right—she’s right—not because she says so, but because it IS so.
BTW: Careful Vance…aren’t you worried that you might get chastised for being “off topic?â€
Vance on 16 Aug 2007 at 7:14 pm #
Oh, I just would use the same argument I do with the highway patrol: I was just going with the flow of traffic!
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 7:15 pm #
Oh…now Catholics are bad drivers tooooo!!!!!!
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 7:37 pm #
Just a quick comment. I have not really been able to stay up with this, but please understand I appreciate all of your comments.
One thing that I am beginning to realize is that this blog, at least right now, is being used as forum. While I am all for discussion, I don’t want this to be a place to debate or challenge people by calling them out every chance we get.
As well, this is not a quick place to come and post your own blog (as well of writers as many of you are). Friends of RMM have a place for this called Euangelion which can be found at euangelion.wordpress.com.
Neither do I want it to be a place where it seems to be Catholics vs. Protestants. What we are really trying to do is challenge thinking, whether Protestant, Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Yet, our primary audience is going to be Protestant. Being such, we need to be self-critical. It is hard to our own beliefs when those from the outside begin to mount a charge. We quickly find ourselves defending home, rather than cleaning it up.
I don’t want this to sound as if we don’t want the perspective of others at all–we do. But please understand our purpose for Parchment and Pen. It is not YOUR blog, or a forums, or a place to debate each other at every turn. If you need clarification on an issue, that is great. If you want to answer a question posted, great. If you want to discuss with others, great. If you want to challenge the writer of the blog, great. But be careful and respectful of the time of the blogger and the topic of the thread.
Granted, there is only one person who is causing this to spin out of control (and I love that one person
), but as one has said, others are sure to follow the traffic.
I hope you all understand.
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 7:39 pm #
BTW: I will try to post some blogs that are not quite so provocative toward the Protestant Catholic issue.
kurtvader on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:28 pm #
Well looks like I missed all the emotion and excitement, that is because I live down under.
Felicity,
As you admit that you are a fallible person who believes in the infallibility of the Magisterium, you are never certain, because you could be wrong ie your fallibility is operating or could be operating at that time. You also perhaps benign to you have relegated your decision over to the Magisterium.
Hence, you may make assertions of the Magisterium etc but they are assertions, and CMP’s point is established, ie you are in the same waters riding on different boats.
He is a fallible person believing in the infallibility of Scripture for dogma, but you are just as fallible as he is but believe in the infallibility of the Magisterium.
So granting that, the issue seems to me is this - to where did the Lord promise everlasting existence, to the Church or to the Scripture? The Scripture can exists without the Church but a Church without a Scripture seems unthinkable. At consummation, the distinction of the Church vs the world will end, but according to Jesus the Scripture will last eternally.
In saying this though, I am not buying to Sproul’s probability argument either. I think there are better determinations rather than probability and we do not need fallible people for that either. I think the answer lies in Scripture itself ie in the canon.
$0.02
Kurt
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:37 pm #
Michael? Are you taking your blog and going home? Geez… I’m sorry, I don’t “understand.”
How can you “challenge thinking” and be “self-critical” if you are unwilling to take correction on the Catholic misrepresentations you present from a member of that faith. I was scolded for my etiquette by Vance elsewhere, when in reality my confidence is conviction for my beliefs. But, speaking of etiquette, isn’t it blog-etiquette appropriate for you to represent the positions expressed by your comboxers accurately? I have corrected you several times and given links to Church documents demonstrating that Catholics have a Dogmatically defined RIGHT to intellectual inquiry and spiritual questioning, and yet you keep passing off the old saw that Catholics can’t question the faith. It’s simply false. And there are several such comments and insinuations floating about this blog by other primary bloggers and commenters. I DON’T understand your motivation at all…
You came over to Catholic Answers with your link to Dr. Wallace’s 51% Protestant and your promise of “irenic†conversation encouraging us to find common ground. I joined your community to help clarify Catholic beliefs and gradually the supposed “irenic†atmosphere has dissipated. Note how many Catholic challenging blogs and references within blogs that have been posted in the past few weeks casting Catholicism in a negative or ridiculous light—JUST LOOK at the two letters to Pope Benedict you wrote. You claim this is a Protestant blog, but I didn’t realize you held so tightly to the PROTEST part of your nomenclature! You have suggested repeatedly my “tone†is inappropriate in some way, but offer no specific explanation or example as to how you arrive at that subjective conclusion. I suggest this “opinion†about my tone is because I have had much to correct concerning rampant anti-Catholic bias and people don’t like hearing their deeply seeded biases are wrong.
When I found another blogger to have a particular “tone,†I cited the diction that demonstrated it and untangled the faulty reasoning—it seems only fair that if I am accused of something there should be some evidence. Granted, today my tone has been rather frank and to the point and not particularly genteel. I guess if I’m going to be accused of it, I might as well use it to be more clear. And speaking of being frank and clear, I also think the reason you feel a “charge†has been “mounted†against your erroneous claims is the result of my having offered the more logical and reasoned and supported position, and I have continued to encourage you to do the same but you have not risen to the occasion.
So what are we left with? –another chastisement from “on high†that I’m “off topic†or my “tone†isn’t right, or my posts are “obscure†and “all over the place?†….No… now the cry is “it is not YOUR blog…†which leaves the whine “it’s MY blog!†ringing in the readers’ ear.
WOW…..it’s clear that Parchment and Pen isn’t really all that interested in discussion (irenic or otherwise) and the “common ground†we Christians share –it seems that it’s really about confirming each other in what is already assumed. It’s not a real exchange of ideas or the truth about each other’s beliefs it’s rather about selling a world view that depends on relative theology. No—that’s wrong—what it’s really about is selling a particular product—a PARTICULAR PRODUCT that costs about a hundred dollars a session and is enrolling now for September classes.
By the way..if in a couple of weeks of posting on your blog I can create such a stir that you characterize it as “causing this to spin out of controlâ€â€”either I am much more adept at presenting the truth of the Catholic Church than I think, or your “Theology†leaves much to be desired.
Oh…also, Michael, your last post was TOTALLY off topic.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:41 pm #
Thanks Kurt for addressing your post to me. I’ll answer you now since I doubt I’ll be around much longer considering the powers that be don’t like my tone.
I disagree that the Scripture can exist without the Church–as has been noted, there was no Scripture without the Church. The Revelation of God was given to men to pass on orally, and was only written down at a later date within the structure of the Churches established as Christianity spread.
C Michael Patton on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:44 pm #
Felicity, all I can say is that your comments speak for themselves.
Felicity on 16 Aug 2007 at 10:46 pm #
They do indeed…and yours do as well.
Perry Robinson on 17 Aug 2007 at 8:33 am #
Michael,
I am wondering where you got the idea that the canon isn’t fixed for the Orthodox.
Here are some other mistakes. The notion of absolute certainty didn’t arrive with Descartes since Augustine talks about it quite a lot in Against the Academics, among other places. And he is getting it from Plato by and large.
The issue isn’t one of certainty, but normativity and the canon lacking sufficient normative status to place it beyond possible revision does seem like a significant problem for Protestants. I can see no reason on their principles to think that the canon is unalterable in the future. After all, they did it 500 years ago and I don’t see why they can’t do it again or for that matter why each individual can’t legitimately decide the canon for themselves.
If not having infallible evidence for an infallible church undermines the latter, then it is equally true that not having absolute evidence will undermine an absolute committment to Christ. This is a levels confusion here. See John Montgomery’s old essay, The Theologian’s Craft, specifically his discussion of second level induction.
Also, the two positions don’t seem to be as comparable as you say. A traditional Christian has a revisable belief about formal theological statements and definitions whereas the Protestant has a revisable belief about material statements from which he constructs models. The Bible simply contains no formal theological statements. If it did, words like homoousia wouldn’t be necessary to fix the meaning of biblical terms and phrases.
And this isn’t a Protestant/Catholic issue per se. It is Catholics, Orthodox and High Church Anglicans and Protestants on the other.
Vance on 17 Aug 2007 at 10:26 am #
I hadn’t thought about it like that, but you are right, we are all treating this more like a forum and the blog the discussion “topic starter”. While there can be a great deal of overlap, and there is a wide variety of blog flavors, the concepts are still fundamentally different.
I have been on a lot of forums over the years, but not so many blogs, so if my responses have been more “forum-like”, that is my excuse.
There is a fine line between “here is my reaction to what you said” and “here is what I think on this topic”. A subtle distinction, but I, for one, will try to keep it in mind.
kmerian on 08 Sep 2007 at 9:03 am #
Very well written. But let me ask you, if it is necessary for a person to admit they may be wrong. Is it possible, you are wrong about the notion of infallibility?
C Michael Patton on 08 Sep 2007 at 9:08 am #
Yes, it is. We just have to go with the evidence and make a wise decision. Evidences seems to demand that I am fallible. But the evidence also says that I am correct that we all start with fallibility. I guess the burden would be on those who would suggest that we can be infallibly certian about something.
Doyle on 04 Jan 2008 at 7:30 pm #
I say that all of the so-called divisions of Christianity, such as Roman Catholic and Protestant, are wrong in their purpose. The true purpose of the church is to spread the true word of God, not just to pick and choose from what is there to fit your worldly needs. I think the Bible in all of its books is the complete word of God, because He must have assisted those who put it together so that His reputation would be as it should be. My opinion doesn’t matter, and neither does any of yours, the only thing that matters is the truth. Unless we find indesputable evidence that the Bible isn’t completely true or actually is, then we just have to stick with it until we do.
James Besuden on 27 Jan 2008 at 5:09 pm #
I find your answer unfulfilling. Your comparison of Protestants to Catholics is incorrect.
If you had an infallible collection of infallible books, you would fallibly believe in your infallible source (the Bible). That would put you in the same boat as Catholics, who fallibly believe in an infallible source (the Church). But you have an additional problem. You fallibly believe that the Bible is right, and further, fallibly believe which books constitute the Bible.
The first instance of fallibility is a rather minor one. Yes, we are all fallible and could therefore, in theory, be wrong that 1+1=2. But that doesn’t mean that believing 1+1=2 is on the same level as believing in the Easter Bunny.
In essence, you are attacking all of truth and knowledge in order to justify a possibly incorrect belief. It’s not enough to simply say, “well we’re all human, we could all be wrong, so anything I believe is the same as anything another person believes.” Not so.
James Besuden on 27 Jan 2008 at 5:16 pm #
Another way of looking at it:
Catholics have a fallible belief in an infallible source (the Church).
Protestants have a fallible belief in a fallible source (the Bible), which contains both truth (true books with true verses) and falsehood (false books and/or false scriptures within true books).
The Bible says that *all* Scriptures, not just that found in the Protestant or Catholic Bibles, is God-breathed and useful for instruction.
Furthermore, not only is the belief in the makeup of the Bible extra-scriptural, but the Bible doesn’t say that one should follow only the Bible. This is a serious problem for Sola Scriptura, as the belief that one should follow only the Bible is extra-scriptural. So a person who claims to follow only the Bible is incorrect as he or she (a) is following his parents, pastor, tradition, the flesh, etc in determining what constitutes the bible, and (b) is following his parents, pastor, etc in deciding that only the Bible is a proper guide for Christian conduct.
C Michael Patton on 27 Jan 2008 at 8:19 pm #
Hi James,
Thanks for commenting. Not sure if you post was directed toward me since it does not seem to follow my argument at all, but I would ask you for your proposed alternative. Do we have an infallible canon? If we do, how do you defend this?
C Michael Patton on 27 Jan 2008 at 8:22 pm #
Just read your second comment.
You said: “Protestants have a fallible belief in a fallible source (the Bible), which contains both truth (true books with true verses) and falsehood (false books and/or false scriptures within true books).”
I did not understand that at all. Part of our fallible belief is that the all the books are inspired and therefore true so long as they are interpreted correctly.
Pat on 04 Feb 2008 at 1:12 pm #
Mr. Patton,
I’m not sure if this post is still active, but I’ll try. I think what some of the people are trying to say, as am I, is that the logic of your argument is sound; but, it proves too much. IOW, the writer’s of the Bible would be subject to the same fallibility. As Christians we do not believe this though. We believe that God wrote the Bible through their fallible human agency. They, as mere men, remained fallible, but what they produced is God-breathed(inspired), thus infallible and inerrant.
Tank on 05 Feb 2008 at 12:17 am #
Raise protestant (nazarene), born again jesus freak (calvary chapel), studied theology-philosophy at a conservative college (but w. a very progressive group of professors), graduate work in psychology…. moved away from an evangelical faith…. as I contemplate a return to the faith I find myself very attracted to the catholic position. Yes, we all must make an initial interpretive choice - who will I trust to interpret? Myself? You? Or the church that gave us the canon, the creeds we claim as foundational, and the historical continuity that held together the faith not to mention all of western civilization. I can’t believe I just wrote that sentence; I come from a very protestant (and very godly) extended family. Anyway, some great insight to issues that I find as “live options” in my current journey.
Dennis Warren on 07 Feb 2008 at 3:00 am #
I am admittedly a real lightweight here - but I do have a question, and I’m hoping maybe one of you would be kind enough to speak to - or even just provide for me a link to relevant material.
It seems you folks for the most part are in agreement that the message in each of the books (at least in the protestant cannon) is infallible - even though there is disagreement about whether the correct set of books were selected to fall in that category of infallible books.
I have fallen away from my previous belief as to just how infallible the words in those books are (and/or “were” even when they were first written).
It has been scripture itself which has been the thing that I think has pointed me away from the strong view of infallibilty I once enjoyed. Here is an example (there are several others found in the sermon on the mount) : Jesus said Moses had allowed men to divorce their wives … I get the impression He was saying something to this effect … Moses penned that message, not so much because God infallibly inspired him to (or, at least not because that was God’s intent for how men should live) … but instead, (it looks to me like maybe) that concession was allowed in scripture because of the “hardness” of the men’s hearts (i.e. the men living in that culture, and at that time in history).
Is there a place at this site where I can read about what you folks really mean when you speak of scripture being “infallible”?
I once believed the Bible to be sort of like a manual written by the maker of humans - to be used by humans as a way to sort of get the most out of being a human (or, at least be a human in the way the maker of humans ideally intendend us to be). When Jesus said that Moses was not stating the ideal - (and that is a part of scripture!) - that seems to go against what I was thinking scripture is/was supposed to be!
When I thought deeply about the passage I mentioned above (and others too), I started to get the idea that what God has to say to us humans about the best way to live our lives (as we honor Him, and/or just enjoy the life He has given us), CHANGES based on the time the human in question lives and also maybe the culture in which he or she lives. So, the way God wants/allows us to live changes based on various things? This way of thinking really has changed what I think of when I think about infallibility - because if God’s plan is different for people throughout time - then does that mean He needs to inspire people to interpret the Bible (infallibly?) — and sort of put a different spin on things as more time elapses and for humans living in different cultures? (It seems to me that Jesus really put a major different spin on things said in the Old Testament …. — you have heard it said … but I say unto you –.)
As you can see I know I am confused, and I guess I am mainly just asking for some help.
-Dennis
Pat on 07 Feb 2008 at 9:37 am #
Dennis,
It seems you are asking just how is it that the Christian Church has come to “know” that the books in the Bible are indeed infallible, inerrant and inspired (God-breathed).
You asked:
“then does that mean He (God) needs to inspire people to interpret the Bible (infallibly?)”
I would say, No! God does not need to “Inspire” people to interpret infallibly;however, I believe he indeed does protect His Church from error when interpreting the Bible and when the Church teaches Christian Truth they are protected from error. This protection from error is itself called infallibility. It is a negative protection. Since Christians believe that Christ is Truth then the objective possibility of knowing the Truth without error or deviation exists. The question that follows most naturally from this is, “Where do you locate this Church amongst all the differing Churches?” IOW, Where is the seat of authority in the Church? I am Roman Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church satisfactorily answers these questions.
In Christ’s Love,
Pat
Dennis Warren on 07 Feb 2008 at 2:14 pm #
Warning: This may be considered off-topic — please point me to another thread if there is one where this would be more on-topic.
When God wrote with His own “finger” the first edition of the Ten Commandments … now that is what I call INFALLIBLY direct from God with no possibility for error (in the original manuscripts).
I have sometimes thought … when God delegated to Moses the task of writing another edition, perhaps in so doing He was signaling His willingness to let people play a role in His communication (in writing anyway) to mankind. Is it possible that when God made the decision to involve people, He was taking a risk (maybe like when He made us with free will) … a risk that there might be some minor errors slip in from time to time?
I’m guessing that it might be possible to find some documents officially released by various Church authorities (regardless of Catholic, Protestant, etc…)