Thanks, Kurt, for all the good information.

You write: “I have noticed that it is the fundamentalist who likes to call traditional churches like RCC, EO, Lutheran and Anglican cults.”

I guess that makes me 1 part fundamentalist, albeit, tongue-in-cheek.

BTW, though a professor for 6 years at Calvin Theological Seminary (a school that prides itself in not wavering from JC’s teachings), I held steadfastly throughout to a Zwinglian perspective on the Supper. (However, that was not apparently why they booted me out.)

Perry,

Jay and Dr. Tucker are correct, the Reformed consider the Lutherans as Christian Church but the latter considers the other heterodox because of their view of the Supper.

Jay’s question is also fair. Show me also from official Reformed Confessions where they condemn – anathematizes the Lutheran, I am curious. I can show you where the Lutheran anathematizes the Calvinist on the Supper, it is in the BoC. The anathema is in the Christological implications of the Supper, hence even today some Calvinist (mainly Presbyterians) are coming much more closer to the Lutheran/Anglican side on this.

At the Marburg colloquy out of the 15 statements Luther and Zwingli discussed only one item failed – this was on the Supper.

Also technically you should not lump Calvinist with Zwinglians in their view of the Supper. Remember that Calvin came closer to the Lutherans but not quite in his view of the Supper. Calvinists affirm the spiritual presence of Christ in the Supper, Zwinglians do not.

BTW in case you guys do not know, Calvin signed the Augsburg Confession (the Variata) so he was in some sense a Lutheran.

Dr. Tucker,

I have noticed that it is the fundamentalist who likes to call traditional churches like RCC, EO, Lutheran and Anglican cults.

Perry,

I am not sure we are speaking the same language. In evaluating traditions I am strictly viewing their official teachings (i.e. dogma).

If you could help me locate Protestant dogma supporting your claims I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Jay

Bennet,

Hardly. It is based on the colloquy between Luthera and Zwingli. It is also well known that the English Presbyterians persecuted the baptists. The two aren’t in communion, which would indicate their mutual recognition. Again, according to the Reformers, what are the marks of the Church?

As for the PCA, I double check.

Perry wrote:

“As for your local congregation, I don’t know who they are affiliated. In any case, the Lutherans and Reformed have not recognized each other as true churches and neither of them have recognized the baptists as such and the baptists have not recognized them as such.”

This is a classic example of a sweeping generalization.

Jay

Perry wrote:

“The PCA is another story altogether, but to my knowledge they don’t practice open communion and neither do the Dutch Reformed and they don’t recognize say baptist bodies as true churches.”

I cannot speak for the Dutch Reformed, but this is NOT true of the PCA.

Jay

Dr. Tucker,

Ok, I’ll dig something up, but when I was Reformed (REC) and hung around Horton and Riddlebager and Co. it was pretty much well known.

And of course you thought the same thing about the Lutherans and not to toot my own horn, but I was correct there.

Perry, we’ve probably gone around and around about this long enough. I do not know of any Christian Reformed Church (or the denomination as a whole) that would not recognize Baptists or Lutherans “as true churches.” Please quote an official statement from the church or don’t keep saying such.

Ruther Rucker,

No, I mean like the CRC and the now more conservative venture that has sprung from it, I think the CREC or something to that effect.

Now as the RCA, from my knowledge Robert Schuller of Cyrstal Cathedral fame is or at least was, for a very long time a member of the RCA. The RCA is quite lax from my understanding and somewhat liberal, so again, I am not sure that they represent historic Reformed teaching.

As for your local congregation, I don’t know who they are affiliated. In any case, the Lutherans and Reformed have not recognized each other as true churches and neither of them have recognized the baptists as such and the baptists have not recognized them as such.

So I don’t know why people are freaking out about the Pope’s statement since it says nothing else than what Vatican 2 said in Lumen Gentium and other texts. Protestants are ecclesial communisties of Christians that lack the fullness of the faith. I am not indicating that I agree with Rome (I am not Catholic btw) just that their position isn’t exactly unique and so on that basis alone can’t be called a “cult” anymore than the Lutherans can.

Fair?

Dutch Reformed? Are you referring to one of the Reformed bodies in the Netherlands?

I was for 15 years a member of Fifth Reformed Church (Reformed Church in America) and am currently a member of La Grave Avenue Christian Reformed Church, both of which practice open communion–to all who profess faith in Christ as Savior and who are in good standing in a Christian church.