mosesl,

You wrote:

“Now… would that satisfy the debate over faith/works? For then, if obedience is what Christ calls for, that act (ah..now a “work”) proves my trust in Him. Yet it is the trust (faith) that saves, not my own works….”

That’s exactly it. Jesus says “If you love me, keep my Commandments.” John 14:15

Understand, he doesn’t say “If you love me, just believe in me” indicating the term “believe” in this case means to JUST believe in him as a spiritual truth. When Jesus says “believe” he means the whole shebang.

One thing, though. Jesus died for EVERYONE: Christian, Atheist, Buddhist, Catholic, Protestant, everyone. Everyone’s sins are on that cross. He sacrificed himself for us to have the chance to be saved.

Now it’s our choice act on it. Our choice to BELIEVE (faith) in him truly in our hearts through prayer and trust, and to have him WORK (works) through us by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. “I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.” Matt. 25:40 This is what he says, and this is what his church has taught since he was on this earth.

Preacher Jack,

You say:

“They also reject certain sections of the Bible that contradict their stance.”

Any specific references?

And Catholics DO take the entire Bible as a whole, in fact, they were the ones that wrote, translated, and produced it. Let’s face it, with out the Catholic church, the Bible, and Christianity, would not be here.

But, Catholics do not agree with “Sola Scriptura,” or “Scripture Alone.” No where in the Bible does it point to that notion. The Church for 1500 years didn’t even have that notion.

Jesus did not say, “You are Peter. On this rock I will write my BIBLE,” but “On this rock I will build my CHURCH.” History shows us that there was a church before any Bible was put together. Bishops were appointed years before the Bible was what it became to be. St. Ignatius of Antioch was made Bishop before 100 A.D. St. Jerome translated the first Latin Vulgate in 400 A.D.

slight sidetrack…

faith alone in Christ alone…

now if I rekon faith to be “trust”… then trust in Christ alone, in His all sufficient atoning work on the cross.

But… what exactly am I trusting? For not everyone was atoned for on that cross – only those that believe. So what exactly am I trusting? Or if it is “who” I am trusting, and that clearly would be Christ, how do I know if my sins are on that cross?

If Christ demands something of me… then that changes things. For then, to trust Him would be to …trust him with my life. lordship. to submit.

Now… would that satisfy the debate over faith/works? For then, if obedience is what Christ calls for, that act (ah..now a “work”) proves my trust in Him. Yet it is the trust (faith) that saves, not my own works….

What exactly am I trusting?

Hello all!

Thank you Dr. Tucker for your post. It has definitely sparked yet another very important discussion.

I believe we are saved, wait, I KNOW we are saved 100% completely upon the grounds of what Christ did for us on the cross. By His righteousness alone are we brought into right standing before God. There is nothing we can do at all that can possibly add to what He has done on the cross. If so then it renders the cross meaningless. Christ suffered and died in vain if He were merely setting an example for humanity. But I digress…

How do works factor in to this?

I would say that Paul explains this clearly in Ephesians. So often we simply leave it at verse 8 and 9. Whereas when we keep going further into what Paul is saying ….

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We definitely get an idea of how works factor in.

I have to say that we are first saved, and then as a result, our good works are simply that of living out what God has ordained in our life. Our doing these works are our living out His Will here on earth (Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven…to cross reference the Gospels here). That He prepared these things beforehand is of great significance. I have to see this as part of His decretive will which we as believers are to strive to live out simply because we love Him and are humbled by the fact that He in His grace has saved us.

Salvation is through Christ alone and it is only by faith are we justified. Paul again, this time in Romans.

Romans 4:9-12 ….We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Again we see how the works (acts of the law) come after faith, the faith in the One whom makes us righteous.

I have had discussions with Roman Catholics about the law. It usually goes something like this:

I say : “You are not saved by the law but rather have a desire to follow the law once you are saved.

I say “Then you are keeping the OT law because Christ Himself said that all the law hangs on the two greatest commandments. The second of which, is to love your neighbor as yourself”.

Doing good works IS keeping the law. But as we see time and again in the New Testament (and in the Old) that it isn’t the law that saves us but rather the object of the law; that to which the law points – Jesus Christ.

If we belong to Him, just as Abraham, we will have a desire to do as God tells us. But it isn’t out of any want or need to be saved, but rather because we already are. It is to show the world that we already belong to Him and that if they only trust in Him alone for the forgiveness of their sins, then they too will be saved.

Saint and Sinner,

You wrote :”Romanism, on the other hand, makes faith into a reason for obtaining condign merit, and makes good works that were done “in faith” into the means (i.e. congruous or condign) of expiating sin. So, it’s not Christ’s actions and His alone that are effectual for removing sin, but Christ + the sinner’s actions.”

This is a mistake. Condign merit is merit or grace which God alone gives and is active. Hence, faith can’t be a reason or condition for containing since condign grace is the grace that makes it possible for one to believe. You seem to be confusing condign and congruous grace, where the latter is co-operative, the former is operative with God alone working. There is nothing one can do to obtain condign grace in Catholic teaching.

A few things to clarify.

First, we need to be careful not to impute to Rome all of the views Luther reacted against. Luther was trained in the tradition of Okham and Biel. And they most certainly were semi-pelagian. But Scholasticism was much wider and more varried than Okhamism. This is why many of the Thomists and Scotists were initially supportive since they made the very same critiques at points.

Further, when Trent speaks of “works” and “merit” these terms have a very precise meaning. “Merit” generally doesn’t have the full english connotation in latin of a kind of earned credit, but of brining about a pleasing disposition so that the connotation is, do our good works please God?

For Rome, that depends. Are these works works done by myself, out of my unaided nature or are they works done not only together with God but specifically God’s works? If the former, Rome says no, if the latter, Rome says yes, following Augustine.

So it is not like two men pulling a load, to the degree that one pulls the other does not. So the question in medieval scholasticism was not, how can my works be God’s, but rather how can God’s works be mine? For Aquinas, God reaches down and produces good works in you and with you so that the good works that please God are the good works of Christ. Hence he is the head and we are his body carrying out his good works.

And here I thought we were saved by Grace, albeit through faith. No?

(that’s not to argue agaisnt jybnntt in your last point, I agree). ;^)

Dave:

Of course it is. We are saved by works. The works of Jesus Christ.

Thank you Dave. You’ve added a lot for us to mull over in this discussion.

If you don’t know Dave, folks, check out his website: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/

I think another interesting aspect of this question is how many times in Scripture judgment after death is associated strictly with works, but not faith:

Matthew 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
. . .
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 7:16-27 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So every sound tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. Not every one who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?” And then will I declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.” Every one then who hears these words of mine, and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And every one who hears these words of mine, and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.

Salvation is put into very practical terms by Jesus. He reiterates the teaching of Matthew 5:20 by emphasizing acts of obedience, as opposed to verbal proclamations only or mere head knowledge. Even some miraculous works are not necessarily under His superintendence.

A similar dynamic is also present in Matthew 25:31-46, the great scene of the separation of sheep and goats, where Christ continually makes the works of faith the central criterion of judgment. And again in Luke 18:18-25, where the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus asks if he has kept the Commandments. Upon finding out that he has, He commands him to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor (18:22). Jesus was quite an incompetent missionary, according to the pragmatic evangelistic techniques and criteria for “success” which prevail among many of today’s evangelicals.

Nothing whatsoever is spoken about faith alone in any of these passages, as would be rightfully expected if Luther were correct about the nature of saving faith. All Christians agree that a person living unrighteously is in great danger. Catholics say that such a one has lost the state of grace through mortal sin, whereas most evangelicals contend that they were likely never saved at all. In any event, the actual outcome is the same in both cases if the sinning persists: hellfire.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.

Romans 2:5-13 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honour and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

What is mentioned by St. Paul? Faith alone? No: works, well-doing, being factious, not obeying, being wicked, doing evil, doing good, sinning, being doers of the law . . . this is all Paul talks about. The theme of obeying the gospel, or the obedience of faith, is common in St. Paul’s writings (e.g., Romans 1:5, 6:17, 10:16, 15:18-19, 16:25-26, 2 Thessalonians 1:8; cf. Acts 6:7, Hebrews 11:8).

Reformed theologian G.C. Berkouwer wrote about the Romans 2 passage above:

“In Paul, as elsewhere, we are impressed by an unambiguous eschatological perspective of the judgment which shall be according to works . . .

“The relation between final judgment and works is here unmistakably intimate. There is a final divorce between obedience and disobedience . . . The question is the more insistent in view of other utterances of Paul [cites Gal 6:7-9, 2 Cor 5:10, Col 3:23-25, 1 Cor 3:13, 4:5] . . .

“We can hardly say that such ideas form a subordinate line, a secondary and rather unimportant element of Paul’s message. Quite the contrary. The utmost earnestness of the judgment and the appeal to man to consider his daily responsibility before the Lord of life sound clarionlike through his whole witness. It is not to be denied that for Paul, too, the works and affairs of man play a role in the final drama of God’s judgment.”

(Faith and Justification: Studies in Dogmatics, translated by Lewis B. Smedes, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1954, 103-105)

1 Peter 1:17 . . . who judges each one impartially according to his deeds . . .

Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.