How to Perform a Gnostic Bible Study
I was teaching today on hermeneutics. More specifically, I was teaching on the importance of what is known as “authorial intent” or “historical grammatical” hermeneutics. Hermeneutics is a fancy word that has to do with one’s method of interpreting the Bible. An authorial intent hermeneutic simply means that we must seek to understand what the text meant from the standpoint of the original author and audience before we can apply it to our lives. This involves an understanding of many things including the argument of the writing, the situation of the audience, the rules that govern the particular genera (type of writing), the culture in which the book was written, issues of grammar and syntax, and personality and mood of the author. Sometimes this is self-evident, and sometimes it takes a lot of leg work.
While I was explaining this, many people were becoming very uncomfortable and squirming in their seat. One lady would have none of what I said, but continually pleaded that she does not need this. God simply speaks to her when she opens the Bible bypassing all these difficulties and roadblocks that I was suggesting. She insinuated that if what I said were true that she would have to quit reading the Scriptures. Ouch! As an Evangelical Christian teacher, this is the last thing that I want someone to do.
Today’s reaction was not unique by any stretch. I have taught on this dozens of times and most people feel very uncomfortable with this presentation. I understand where they are coming from. Heck, I even find these propositions difficult to swallow sometimes. We are taught that the Bible is “living and active.” This means that when we open it up, it becomes God’s message to us. We normally don’t practice authorial intent hermeneutics when we read our Bible. We have a different hermeneutic all-together. It is a subjective, reader-response hermeneutic where the Bible speaks magically to us. In our mind (although we would never admit it as such), God bypasses the original intent of the author and opens our eyes to His teaching just for us. This is a “secret” hidden message that only Christians can find. One of my friends in seminary used to call this “lucky-lotto hermeneutics.” To play the ”lucky-lotto,” you simply pick up the Bible and the first thing you read will give you the answers to the questions you are after; God will speak directly to you.
I told the class today that if we were going to practice this type of hermeneutic, we might as well use Moby Dick. As a matter of fact, if this is our method, God can use any writing whether it be Harry Potter, the Dallas Morning News sports page, the Yellow Pages, or the billboard as you are driving down the road. All of these would carry the same validity as God’s message if we are going to use a subjective hermeneutic which disregards what the text meant in its original context. If God is going to bless us and give us a message in such a way, He is doing it graciously in spite of our methodology, not because of it.
Where does such a hermeneutic arise? Why do we feel as if we can violate the Scriptures in such a way, mining out God’s “secret” hidden message?
I believe that Gnosticism, at least in the West, is the biggest problem in conservative Christianity today. To make a very complex subject overly simple, Gnosticism is a ancient Greek philosophy that separates the world into two categories: good and evil. All that is evil is associated with the mundane existence of a material world. All that is good is that which transcends the material world, being spiritual in nature. Therefore, Gnostics believed that the body, being material, was inherently evil. They believed that the earth and creation was evil. They believed that our goal was to transcend this material existence in every discipline of life thus escaping the mundane. The ultimate redemption would come at death when our spirits would finally be released from our body.
In the New Testament, we see the Apostle’s having to battle this type of philosophy time and time again. Paul was scoffed as he preached the resurrection of the dead to the Athenians. “Why would some one want to resurrect their evil body?” was the argument of the philosophers on Mars Hill. “That is ridiculous. We just got rid of our body, why would we want it back?” John had to defend the fact that Christ actually took on real flesh, a true material existence. Those Gnostics who wanted to be faithful to their philosophy of dualism (good=spirit and evil=physical) yet accept Christianity produced a new Christ. To them, Christ only seemed to have a body, but He really didn’t because a good God could not take on a physical existence since physicality is inherently evil. Yet John proclaimed that they had “seen” Christ and that their “hands have handled him” (1 John 1:1-2).
It is my contention that we are still struggling with the basic presuppositions of a Gnostic worldview in the church today. Right now, I am simply dealing with this with regards to our Bibliology and Hermeneutic, but we can find the influence of Gnosticism infecting our view of Christ, Humanity, Culture, and the end times. As I mention above, most Christians are reading the Bible with a subjective hermeneutic. They read the text as if there is some secret hidden underlying meaning in the text. This hidden meaning is the true “spiritual” meaning that transcends the ordinary physical reading. This hidden meaning can only be discovered by Christians. Why? Because Christians have the secret decoder ring. We have the Holy Spirit who meets us at the text and whispers in our ear what the meaning really is.
This hermeneutic started very early in Church history in Alexandria and was predominate until the Reformation. Many in church history laid it out logically in this way: just as the body has three parts–body (physical), soul, and spirit, so the Scripture has three interpretations–literal (physical), moral, and spiritual. While the literal was not completely disregarded, it certainly took a back seat to the more important spiritual meaning. The problem quickly became evident as people would search for this deeper hidden meaning without any rules or reliable guidelines for finding such. The result was that everyone came to different conclusions about what it meant (sound familiar?). The Reformers led the Church back to authorial intent hermeneutics, claiming that it is the only way for us to understand what the Scriptures really mean.
Today, I believe that we are dangerously close to Gnosticism with regards to our Bible study. We have lost the spirit of Reformation hermeneutics, especially in the pews. We sit around in Bible study circles and ask “What does this passage mean to you?” We applaud as someone gives their answer and then move on to the next and ask the same question. We affirm each person’s response even if it means something different to each person. Can the text have different meanings? Only if you are practicing a Gnostic hermeneutic where the Bible becomes a magic book with a secret spiritual meaning that transcends the literal.
While the Bible can have different and subjective applications, it cannot have different and subjective meanings. It means what it meant. Nothing more, nothing less. While this does produce fear of the Scriptures, I believe that this is a healthy fear. After all, the Bible is God’s word, isn’t it? We can’t take it lightly.
So, without further ado–How to perform a Gnostic Bible Study:
- Regard the Bible as a magic book dropped directly out of heaven.Â
- Disregard the original author’s intent.
- Read.
- Meditate.
- Blame your interpretation on the Holy Spirit.
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iakobusdoulos on 23 Jul 2007 at 5:46 am #
At first I was inclined to disagree with you Michael. Or disinclined to agree with you, I can’t figure out which. I was taught early in my Christian life that what is taught from the pulpit is what is proclaimed by the pews. So, I was initially inclined to put the blame on the preachers of today with their wishy-washy, “I’m OK, You’re OK” style of preaching.
I was saved in 1977; so that may have applied then, but sadly, not today. Today we are “preached at” from what we hear on the “Christian” TV that we have on all day long, and “watch” whatever they happen to be throwing at us. We listen to our “Christian” radio stations when we are driving; whether it’s to and from work or cross country. And now, while we are surfing the web we go to one of those “Christian” sites to play music or hear a sermon while we are surfing. So, from my point of view, I think that what we are now, and I agree with you that many Christians have a “gnostic” view point of some kind, is a product of the “Popular Preachers Front.” (MP)
Many so called “Christian” television networks, i.e. TBN, broadcast “feel good” programs, featuring your most prominent Gnostic pastors of the day, for the majority of time. And “spots” are given to celebrity “converts” who espouse self-revelatory statements, i.e. “God is love so therefore love is God,” throughout the day.
You are correct Michael, and I think it’s because “we” have become a product of the information that is injected into our heads, bypassing our hearts, from the selected media we expose ourselves to.
JoanieD on 23 Jul 2007 at 6:00 am #
Michael said, “While the Bible can have different and subjective applications, it cannot have different and subjective meanings. It means what it meant. Nothing more, nothing less.”
I agree, Michael. The problem comes when two people who have both exhaustively studied the scriptures and the history say that scripture verses mean different things. Then what?
Take this passage from John 3:7-8 where Jesus says to Nicodemus: “You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
I am willing to bet that very committed, studious scholars would come up with different meanings for those verses.
Joanie D.
stevemoore on 23 Jul 2007 at 8:11 am #
Michael,
I can understand the resistance that these folks express.
Logically, this makes perfect sense: to promote an authorial intent hermeneutic is to remove the grounds for these more subjective approaches to studying the Bible. In so doing, you have pulled the rug out from underneath them. No longer can they simply come to the text and take away whatever their hearts desire, validating whatever idea or belief they wish.
Now, I dont wish to impune any of the folks you mention, but I am speaking more broadly. When the meaning of a text is “anchored” to the author’s original meaning then we really dont have much “wiggle room” to twist and turn a passage to make it say what we want.
There are those out there who clearly take this approach in ignorance but are innocent in the sense that they do not desire to mishandle scripture. For them the rub is that something “special” has been taken away. They feel a personal connection with God by their approach to His word. They no longer can go and get a “special” and unique message directly from God. It takes a little “shine” off of their magical view of the Bible.
Unfortunately there are others out there who are not so innocent and they have other objectives in resisting authorial intent. Whether they seek to manipulate religious behavior in others, motivate some specific action for their own benefit, or seek to condone and approve of a particular interpretation the end result is the same. They seek to use scripture for their benefits rather than seeking to understand what God intended to say. What saddens me deeply is that I see many evangelical pastors, leaders, etc (who are too well educated to fall into the former category, they cant qualify for that as an excuse) and thus land in this latter category.
Authorial intent removes the grounds for these behaviors, to a significant degree. While there are many different implications of a passage, there is only the one meaning - the one that God superintended through the human author. That’s why even though it may be very hard, we definitely need to strive to understand the author’s meaning and pursue truth as a honorable and worthy goal.
-steve
Josh on 23 Jul 2007 at 9:38 am #
Just to stir up a can of worms, what do you do with texts that Jesus uses from the OT and “reinterprets them†which would have been much different from the way the people who originally read/heard them would have taken it?
I’m thinking of Matthew 19:3-9, yes I realize Jesus is after the heart issues of the Pharisees, but does this not imply that there are certain aspects of the Mosaic Law that are directly applicable to the Hebrews who were alive during the Exodus and not to everyone? So it seems that to interpret this passage with the system of hermeneutics which you just described would not be consistent with the interpretation in which Jesus gave it.
I am just curious using this line of reasoning, if Teachers of the Law, and people who have studied Gods Word since their birth (Pharisees, Sadducees, etc) in “proper interpretations†could have misinterpreted and completely missed what the Scriptures pointed to (Jesus), how can we have confidence in our system of interpretations?
I’m not disagreeing with you; I’m curious how to respond to this objection, because it seems like a pretty strong argument and would give a lot more weight to the Catholic viewpoint of Scripture, if in fact the Church’s interpretation of Scripture is infallible. However, I find that viewpoint quite difficult to defend.
Your brother in Christ,
-Josh
Nick N. on 23 Jul 2007 at 10:47 am #
Josh raises a good point. The New Testament is full of subjective reinterpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures. Anyone who has had any contact with Jewish anti-missionaries has heard them argue that the author of Matthew’s Gospel either created prophecies out of thin air (Mat. 2:23) or completed removed passages from the Tanakh from their context and applied them to Jesus (Mat. 1:23; 2:15, 18) [this is the old 'you drew the bulls eye around the arrow' argument]. Yet scholars have long recognized that he employed a Midrashic interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures in many places and that he weaves a sophisticated tapestry that’s unrivaled by any other New Testament writer.
But the author of Matthew is not alone in reinterpreting the Hebrew Scriptures, most every NT writer can be found doing this at some point or another. For example, Psalm 2:7 which originally referred to David was applied to Jesus in Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5; 5:5 by different authors with different applications in different contexts! Psalm 45:6-7 was originally a coronation for a king. Any king of Davidic decent could have this passage applied to them but the author of Hebrews appropriates it in a way to place Jesus above all creatures. Likewise, Hebrews 1:5 also partially quotes (i.e. ‘out of context) 2Samuel 7:14, a passage that originally referred to Solomon, and applies it to Jesus. We could go through the book of Hebrews citing dozens of examples like this.
Without exhausting the literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of this kind of subjective interpretation, I think it is sufficed to say that we have a Biblical precedent for the validity of such a practice. Now one can always argue that the NT writers were inspired and that God guided their interpretations but I think this is to miss the point — they certainly didn’t know they were being carried along by the Holy Spirit (at least in most cases) — they simply interpreted the Scriptures in light of the incarnation of Christ and their faith in him as Israel’s Messiah.
Perhaps this is what you meant in saying “the Bible can have different and subjective applications, it cannot have different and subjective meanings.” But this raises the question (in my mind at least) of whether or not these passages understood to be prophetic utterances were actually prophetic — if there is one and only one meaning then either all of these Old Testament passages taken out of context and applied to Jesus never had any reference to him to begin with or they always had reference to him and not to the one they seemed to imply at the time of their being written.
It’s definitely something to think about…
C Michael Patton on 23 Jul 2007 at 11:50 am #
You guys are very good to notice this problem with a strict authorial intent approach. The example of how the New Testament writers used the Old (particularly the way Matthew does) is confusing. There are not many areas where there is more disagreement. Here are the options:
1. See the New Testament authors as setting an example for our hermeneutic and conclude that we should seek the deeper meaning of Scripture (sensus plenoir–”fuller sense”) as they did. Problem: What are the rules? How do we know when we have found this fuller sense? What is to prevent people from finding many “fuller senses” that contradict each other?
2. See the New Testament authors as using an invalid hermeneutic (Midrash and Pesher) that was common in their day, yet God blessed their interpretation in spite of bad methodology. Therefore, we should not follow suit. Problem: It is hard to see how the apostles could use an invalid hermeneutic and still be considered inspired.
3. See the New Testament authors as using a valid hermeneutic that can only be used by those inspired by God. In other words, they were able to see the sensus plenoir of the Old Testament because God showed them this deeper meaning, but you and I cannot use this method simply because we are not inspired. Therefore, while it was valid for them, it is invalid for us. Problem: This still begs the question as to whether there is a deeper meaning.
In the end, I would not argue that their cannot be a deeper meaning to Scripture, but I would argue that the only method that we have available to us is authorial intent hermeneutics. Again, if not, what are our guidelines for discovering this hidden meaning?
I would also argue for the possibility that this sensus plenoir existed only in the Old Testament and pointed to Christ. If this is true, could it be possible that the New Testament writers exhausted the deeper meaning and therefore there are no longer any passages that need to be exegeted in such a way?
I just don’t have the answers to these questions. But they are very good and are considered the fly in the ointment of strict authorial intent hermeneutics.
Josh on 23 Jul 2007 at 12:42 pm #
“I would also argue for the possibility that this sensus plenoir existed only in the Old Testament and pointed to Christ. If this is true, could it be possible that the New Testament writers exhausted the deeper meaning and therefore there are no longer any passages that need to be exegeted in such a way?â€
This seems like the strongest argument, and it seems like it would be Biblically sound especially in light of texts like Luke 24:27, where Jesus is literally teaching some disciples about Himself through the OT texts. Then if we link that with John 5:39 it reaffirms it and Paul seems to share this idea from Galatians 4:1-5 where he directly connects the Law and “fullness of the time†referring to when Christ would come, together with each other.
But this doesn’t really help us much in this discussion does it lol. We are right back where we started, because the next question is, “ok, well if they had this “fuller sense†and it’s something that I can’t have then I am at a tremendous disadvantage in understanding Gods Word because I don’t have the “cheat sheet†they did so how can I really know if I’m right?†Which is what many people I think come to, and reject this idea and pick and choose the Scriptures that they like and the harder ones they leave out as “not for our time†as you have expressed in your blog post.
My question to you Michael is, can we really be consistent in our thoughts on this? It seems to me (correct me if I’m wrong) that within this model even our interpretation is essentially left up to faith, because we can use hermeneutical systems but eventually will we not always run into these type of brick walls unless we come with presuppositions that are hermeneutical systems are inerrant?
C Michael Patton on 23 Jul 2007 at 1:34 pm #
I sympathize with this Josh. I think that it is a very difficult issue. Yet at the same time, it is an issue of basic communication. The question is Can God reveal truth in such a way that we can understand it? If the answer is yes, then we ask How did He do so? I believe that we say that He simply uses the communication avenue that He created and expects us to use. Everyday, you and I use authorial intent hermeneutics to interpret each other, whether this is a conversation with your spouse or instructions given by your boss at work. We are very familiar with this.
When it comes to the Bible, it is the same, there is simply a larger bridge to cross in order to confidently arrive at the intended meaning. Therefore, I believe that we can be extremely confident that authorial intent hermeneutics is the method which God expects us to use. If God wanted to communicate something different than authorial intent, then He could have (or better, should have) communicated in a language that no one is familiar with. At least this would not mislead us to think that the ultimate message is contained in the normal way in which communication happens.
But God did communicate to us in our own language, using our own people, forming words using our syntax, and using situations that we are going through. Therefore, I believe that the only responsible way to proceed is through historical-grammatical authorial intent hermeneutics. We dare not forget the fact that God created language to begin with, so we are no devaluing God’s ability to communicate, but we are recognizing the “good” of all things that God created seeing it as part of the imago dei (image of God), including communication.
Not sure if that makes sense.
Vance on 23 Jul 2007 at 1:41 pm #
I agree with your approach, Michael (as will be seen below), but the historian in me comes out here:
Without original autographs, we can’t be certain that we have the author’s original text, much less can get to their original intent, purely speaking. From a purely historical point of view, we would have to say that the texts we have could have suffered many alterations from their originals and we would never know it. In fact, I recall in my studies the story about an incorrect text being used for hundreds of years as THE text, read and taken to heart by many generations of Christians, only to later find a better (earlier) version during the middle ages, which is the one our current translations are based upon. BUT, here are two points I will contribute:
1. If we believe that God intended these Scriptures for us, that inspired their writing, and inspired their selection as the canon, then we must believe that God would continue to intervene to preserve what is important and essential about the text. This is where I would disagree with Michael. I don’t think it is a matter of “infallible in the original autograph” and we have to do our best to dig down to that. I think it is infallible in its original MESSAGE, which God would have preserved through the generations.
2. Given the variations in the texts used by Christians over the years, and given the sheer fact of translations being subjective and debatable, we must accept that not all Christians have read exactly the same texts over the centuries (or are even reading the same text right now).
If you put one and two together, I think you must come to the conclusion that it is the ESSENCE of the texts which are important and that God has kept pure and holy. It is the MESSAGE in its whole, not in its minute grammar or nice theological variations, that is what we should be focused on.
Having said that, however, I will get back to Michael’s point, which I agree with entirely. We HAVE to get back to what these texts would have meant to the original author and audience. Not necessarily seeking out the original autograph, since if we don’t believe that God can preserve His Message, we have MUCH bigger problems, but taking what the message (as preserved by God in the texts we DO have) says, and find out what that message would have meant to someone living in the first century.
For my money, the best at this by far is N.T. Wright. I know that some hard-core Calvinists have problems with his Pauline positions, but his historical analysis is very solid, and his scholarly series on the early Church is brilliant (Jesus and the Resurrection of God, etc).
Josh on 23 Jul 2007 at 2:29 pm #
I think you run into a bit of trouble if you follow your line of reasoning/interpretation Vance. If we are going to concede the idea that the texts have had many alterations, then this no longer becomes Orthodox Christianity, it becomes an ice cream shop of religion. This is what we see in a large amount of (if I can use the term) liberal churches. For example we hear things like, “homosexuality and pre-martial sex aren’t really against Gods Will those texts should be altered (or in many cases completely ignored) because they don’t fit into my philosophy of what we think God “should beâ€(God of “love†etc). Those texts were written a long time ago when the world was a different place, so we don’t really know what they say anyway.†You can just feel the postmodernism flowing out with every word into a bog of useless nothingness.
If it’s the message that God wanted to preserve, which message is it? That God is love? The Gospel? The “Journeyâ€? (As an emergent person might say) It’s ALL about the interpretation of that message, because (as is so evident today) many people interpret different ideas as to what the message is. So if you say that that there have been alterations to the texts that generate the message, does it not follow that the message itself has been altered? I mean you could solve a lot (however it is found in other places obviously) of the Calvinist/Arminian debate if you just removed the book of Romans from the Bible. Would this “change the Gospel messageâ€? No, but it certainly would tear a huge leg of support for it because (I think it is relatively safe to say) that the majority of the Epistles were doctrinally designed for the mind (not solely as Romans 8 has helped my heart and soul multiple times), and to steal a quote that Michael used from Edwards, “The heart will not accept what the mind rejectsâ€.
Perhaps I have completely mis-understood you, but to me the term “many alterations†seems to express to me that there isn’t strong evidence (within historians viewpoints) that the NT is strongly supported and unified which I think Josh McDowell and many other writers have strongly argued that there is.
Your brother in Christ,
-Josh
C Michael Patton on 23 Jul 2007 at 2:47 pm #
Vance, I actually agree with everything you said
I think you have presented a balanced appoach to the issues involved. You said “I don’t think it is a matter of “infallible in the original autograph” and we have to do our best to dig down to that. I think it is infallible in its original MESSAGE, which God would have preserved through the generations.”
I this that it is ultimately wise to see the message itself as that which needs ultimate preservation. Of course, the more confident we can be in the text, the better we understand the message. But the message, clearly communicated, is the key. This is why, even with the thousand of varients among the available manuscripts, it is comforting to know that no major doctrine is effected in the slightest (conta Bart Erhman).
Josh on 23 Jul 2007 at 2:53 pm #
Ya I think I understand Michael, I think I’m more frustrated at the idea that no one taught me “how to read the Bible†when I was raised in the church. The concept that the original authors had no chapters changes a ton in my perspective of Scripture. But I’m also frustrated from another direction with the idea that I have to “learn how to read the Bible†lol. But at least you have laid out a framework that makes sense, any recommendations for a layman who has no experience with the original languages?
Vance on 23 Jul 2007 at 3:28 pm #
Josh, I agree with all your sentiments, and bemoan the same “relativism”, so that is not at all where I was going (although I can see why you could have gotten that). It is not a matter of buffet style pick-and-choose your proof-texts, because it is ALL true and God made sure it is ALL there for a reason. I was speaking more on the minute, fine-point, level of discrepancies. We see doctrinal disputes deriving over which verb form Paul used, for example (or at least that level of argument), which is where I think we need to factor this issue.
More important is to get the best texts that God has left us, and then get our heads back into the mind-set of a first century Palestinian or Ephesian, etc. While I do think that God’s message in these texts can speak the basic message of salvation regardless, if we want to mature and grow in our faith and in our understanding of the ways of God, then I think Michael has the right path.
Our confidence is that God preserved it all in a way that is useful to all of us. That means that, since there ARE variations and discrepancies (historical fact we can’t get around), that these discrepancy areas must NOT be where the truth of the message lies. Now, of course, this would be entirely circular reasoning to a non-believer and they would rightly dismiss it. But, for those of us who DO believe that God has given us these texts as His Scripture for us, it is not circular at all.
As Michael points out, we must not go the route of Bart Ehrman, who eventually lost his faith, and now teaches (with a convert’s fervor), that the texts are SO altered that we can not trust them, and even if they ARE substantially original, then they were just chosen by the “proto-orthodox” from among the “hundreds” of available gospels because they were the ones that agreed with their theology.
To give Ehrman a bit of credit, though, he entirely lambasted the Da Vinci Code as bad history all around. There is an interesting interview with him and a few others in a recent edition of Biblical Archaeology regarding how the study of Scripture can effect your faith. Ehrman grew up as a strict fundamentalist and I think that group is the most in danger of “breaking” because of their overly-rigid view of what inerrancy MUST mean.
Vance on 23 Jul 2007 at 3:38 pm #
Oh, and just to clarify, I think that the NT texts are VERY close to the original and that the actual discrepancies are in most cases minor. But, they are there, and to insist that they can not be, or Scripture is “false” or untrustworthy, is where the problem can lie. If we create the false dilemma of absolute purity OR false and untrustworthy, then create a situation in which ONE SINGLE established discrepancy means the entire Scripture is worthless. And, since we have examples of DIFFERENT texts being used throughout the centuries, this failure is automatic.
Rather, we must simply accept BY FAITH that God has preserved what is essential and important and, thus, any areas of discrepancy must not be where the importance lies.
This goes back to Michael’s discussion of “modernism” and it’s over-reaction to post-modernism and insistence on scientific “proof” of God.
When I read the texts, I agree both as a Christian AND as an historian, that these texts accurately reflect what the author intended in its message AND its details, but I will not be shaken if it turns out there are two different version of a given text and we can’t know which is the original, if either.
kolabok21 on 23 Jul 2007 at 8:19 pm #
After glazing through the posts, this thought came to me and maybe of some importance in so far as getting as close to the original text as possible. It at least sets the stage for the effects of the culture, in that the language bears out the deeper meaning if you will, when one determines its original source
It is interesting how to take the Greek translation of the New Testament and retranslate it back in to its mother tongue. You would be surprised, especially in the gospels how much of a semantic flavor is inherent from the Hebrew and Aramaic languages that resonate through out the New Testament, even with the arrival of a Hellenistic culturally influence. And it bears out in the translators trying to find Greek words that represent the Hebrew and Aramaic
The Best Guy IMO to do just that is Joachim Jeremias, his works on textual form criticism are the best of a long forgotten approach to understanding all the elements posed by the poster’s here, definitely not of a Gnostic rendering, my 2 cents anyway
Felicity on 23 Jul 2007 at 8:53 pm #
2Tim3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
How do mere men determine what “the text meant from the standpoint of the original author and audience before we can apply it to our lives†when the author of inspired texts is the timeless Author of all? Further, the text of the Timeless Author is intended for *ALL* men of *ALL* time. What happens when this hermeneutic is taken to its logical conclusion is that the text becomes so broad in meaning that the “lucky-lotto hermeneutic†is justified and appropriate because God had that individual in mind when he inspired the text and knew that individual would read it and get that particular message. I don’t accept that. I think this hermeneutic is “useful†but not authoritative—Authorial intent and audience is one level of understanding—but the Scriptures are a supernatural dialog between God and His Church and there is a specific and clear message that TRANSCENDS the human writers, the cultures, and history itself.
C Michael Patton on 23 Jul 2007 at 9:56 pm #
Felicity,
While I agree that the Scriptures are transcendent in that they are from God, but God communicated them through men who had real circumstances into which their writings appear. The question is Can the transcendent meaning be different from the original meaning. To this I would answer yes, in theory. In theory there could be some hidden secret meaning that only certain people can discover, but then this begs the question of verification. If we allow the Author (big “A”) to have a meaning other than what the author (little “a”) intended, we cannot ever test the veracity of such a claim except through appeal to subjectivity and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We all have seen where this has gotten us. From the early Church until now, scores of people have opted for such an approach and it has caused nothing but division.
Therefore, while I would say in theory yes, Scripture can have a transcendent meaning other than what the author intended, I would say that it does not. Why? Because we have no way to verify or test the authenticity of such.
I would also say that such an approach seems to be of docetic (Gnostic) influence, believing that the mundane circumstances are too mundane for a spiritual God to use. We must remember that God created language, poetry, argumentation, and rhetoric (ala St. Tomas Aquinas). Therefore, I don’t believe that God using such for communication is in any way condescending for God for these things are a part of His image. I believe He take great pleasure in using the mundane circumstances to communicate His word.
Vance on 23 Jul 2007 at 10:20 pm #
To add to what Michael said, we must also face the fact that the Scripture simply is NOT clear in all of its intricacies to ALL men, or possibly ANY men, more likely. If you have two men, both equally honest in their seeking and in their desire to be open to the Spirit’s leading, but coming to different conclusions about what the text means, then obviously one is right, one is wrong, or both are wrong. The bottom line is that someone read the text and got it wrong. Now, multiply that by a thousand and you have the history of Biblical interpretation. So, while we would all love to think that Scripture is just as open to ALL on every point, it is just not the case.
The Westminster Confession acknowledges this when it says that Scripture is accessible and understandable to ALL when it comes to what is sufficient for salvation, but beyond that, much is unclear and requires study.
This is where Paul’s call for TEACHERS comes in. There is a ministry of teaching because there will be those who need to be taught. This is why some like Michael are called to study and learn and teach others what his God-given reason has gained in insight. Not dogmatically, since such teachers are mere men, but with a willingness to contribute to the Church’s collective wisdom for each generation.
Now, sure, the Author could have inspired the authors to write in such a way as to do away with the need for such teachers. Why didn’t he make it so simple and straightforward that everyone person could grasp it? I have no idea, but I suspect that there is a “community” aspect to it.
ChadS on 24 Jul 2007 at 7:19 am #
I’ve found this discussion incredibly fascinating and on my faith journey several issues I had to deal with have been brought up.
As I understand Scripture there are several methods available for the believer to read and interpret Scripture with. However, not all of equal use or validity
I think that the starting point for any study of Scripture should always be from authorial intent. Whether we like to admit it or not Paul wrote his letters to different churches with different people and different problems. We also have to remember that he was a first century Jew living in the Middle East. I think we should give these sorts of considerations some airing before delving further into Biblical studies.
This does not mean however that the way Scriptures speak to us in our everyday lives is necessarily less valid because of this. But I believe that our “personal” experiences of Scripture must always be rooted in tradition and received understandings of Scripture. For me that means using the Catholic Church’s teachings and magisterium as a guide in my own studies.
If we abandon authorial intent and tradition in our interpretations we are in a world of trouble. As Michael said we might as well use Moby Dick or the Yellow Pages in trying to figure out what God wants for us. We end up treating the Bible as a more sophisticated version of the Magic 8 Ball (just ask God outloud what he wants, shake your Bible for a second and thumb to any passage for your answer).
Or any tradition becomes legitimate because it is rooted in Scripture (who are we to tell what is acceptable or not in interpretation?) All one needs to do is look at all the cults that use the Bible for some outlandish and quite un-Biblical theories and understandings — or maybe you just need to look down the street to your favorite liberal preacher.
How can a Catholic say he interprets Scripture on his own when the Church says they can’t? Catholics understand that the Holy Spirit has always guided the Church in teaching and it has not erred in its interpretations. Also, the Church has only officially interpreted a handful of Scriptures authoritatively that pertain to the sacraments. Even then it’s understood more as a guide of what can’t be denied in an interpretation as opposed to what can’t be said about a verse. For example the Eucharist is central to the Catholic experience and is one of the most closely held doctrines of the Church, yet volumes upon volumes by Catholic writers concerning the Euchairst have been produced over the centuries. I’m sure there are interpretations in those volumes that disagree with each other but the central mystery of the Eucharist — in good orthodox and Catholic understandings — still remains unobstructed.
One set of stories that has borne much fruit in my life is a reading of Jesus’ healings of various blind and crippled people. Reading the stories literally and how the author intended we see Jesus’ power over the natural order and a real and physical healing of those people. In my life those verses have come to mean that Jesus promises a spiritual healing as well.
One thing I like to remember as said by a scripture scholar is “Bible study is 9 parts perspiration and 1 part inspiration.”
Felicity on 24 Jul 2007 at 9:05 am #
Thanks for your reply Michael!
Have you noticed everything comes back to that one issue of Authority?
As a Catholic, I have what answers your quandary. Biblically–as fact, no interpretation needed–The Advocate came to the Apostles at Pentecost and they were given what was needed. The Catholic traces an unbroken line of teaching right back to the Apostles and Christ. There’s the verification you so desperately crave. It’s right there for the taking.
Acts 1:6-9
Acts 2:1-4
Thanks,
Felicity
Vance on 24 Jul 2007 at 10:18 am #
The problem is (and this would take us off track, I know), is that you have to BELIEVE a number of things for this to work. You have to believe that:
1. This type of institutional authority was intended, since the Scriptures can be read very differently than that;
2. Even if you accept the first, that this authority was meant to be as absolute and all-encompassing as the Catholic Church states;
3. Even if you accept the first two, that that Apostolic Succession was meant as the means by which such authority was to pass;
4. If all of those, then that this authority could not be broken by human failing;
5. If all of those, then that the Catholic Church is still the repository of such authority, and not the EO, or even the Reformed Church, etc.
While I have great respect for the Catholic Church and join with Dan and Michael here as advocates for a joining of hands and working shoulder to shoulder for the Kingdom, I just don’t believe even the first of these, much less all of them.
On a related issue, here is a little mind exercise. If you took a Christian of the first century, even an apostle if you like, out of his time and place and brought him forward to today, and had him visit various Churches and discuss their various beliefs, how would he react?
I think it would be the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox that would be the most bewildering and foreign. He would not recognize many (most?) of the beliefs and dogmas. He would not understand the liturgy and, even when explained, would probably feel uncomfortable with it, etc.
Even though I hate to acknowledge it, the church that he would feel the most comfortable in, both in style of worship and slate of beliefs would be a small pentecostal church.
Felicity on 24 Jul 2007 at 1:32 pm #
Thanks Vance,
***From Vance
“This type of institutional authority was intended, since the Scriptures can be read very differently than that;…”
RESPONSE:
What do you see in Matthew’s record where Jesus gives the keys to the Kingdom to Peter and the power of binding and loosing? There is a very clear historical context for Jesus’ words. If you answer nothing else, will address this? Even by Michaels historical-grammatical hermeneutic I can’t see any other reading than Jesus granting authority to the Church He founded.
Other examples include the Jerusalem Council described in Acts, the episcopy described in Timothy, the writings of early Church Fathers…
***From Vance
On a related issue, here is a little mind exercise. If you took a Christian of the first century, even an apostle if you like, out of his time and place and brought him forward to today, and had him visit various Churches and discuss their various beliefs, how would he react?
RESPONSE:
The only ones that have the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist are the Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Christ in the Eucharist is the Source and Summit of our Faith—they would be in a Church where Jesus Physically resides.
***From Vance
Even though I hate to acknowledge it, the church that he would feel the most comfortable in, both in style of worship and slate of beliefs would be a small pentecostal church.
RESPONSE:
The way the Catholic Church views worship is that worship is not about how “we feelâ€â€”it’s really not about “us†at all–it is obedience to Christ and submission to him for his glory.
Thanks,
Felicity
ChadS on 24 Jul 2007 at 2:12 pm #
Hi Vance,
I believe that as a Catholic we are very firmly rooted for the claims that are made. We believe that when Christ gave Peter the power to “loose and bind” this authority was meant to be passed on. We believe that a sacrificial priesthood was established by Christ at the Last Supper, when he told the apostles “to do this in remembrance of me.” He also gave them authority to do things in his name, such as cast out demons and to forgive sins. This same authority was theirs to pass on to their successors.
Yes the Church is made up of human beings. No they are not perfect. But at the same time Christ promised that he would be with them at all time. Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching or falling into error. This is a supernatural gift that transcends human fraility.
Catholics certainly believe that the EO have protected and maintained apostolic succession and have protected the faith. As far as I can tell there is no Protestant or non-Catholic or non-Orthodox church that makes such a claim. Even in denominations different interpretations run rampant making any claim to understanding the Bible false.
Upon what evidence do you believe that a 1st century Christian would feel more at home in a Pentecostal church? If you read and study the Church Fathers and writings of the earliest Christians you would see they have very Catholic understandings of liturgy, worship and scriptures. For example the Didache, from the early 2nd century, speaks of a literal presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There is graffiti in Roman catacombs that suggest they held a reverance for the Virgin Mary and other “saintly” martyrs (two things almost completely missing from Protestant churches). There are numerous other examples that could be named.
The liturgy as expressed by Catholics & Orthodox would be more familiar than a Pentecostal’s. The Orthodox to this day use liturgical rites composed by St. Basil the Great in the mid-400s and St. John Chrysostom. When were the Pentecostal liturgy penned? Do they have a weekly eucharistic service like early Christians or the Orthodox and Catholics still do?
Yes, authority and tradition as understood by the Catholic Church was intended to be passed on and it was. The Church, through the protection of the Holy Spirit, cannot fail at this. I believe that this early Christian would be very comfortable in a Catholic and Orthodox church.
ChadS
Josh on 24 Jul 2007 at 3:22 pm #
-Felicity
First let me start out by saying I know very little about Roman Catholicism, I am just trying to learn and understand more about it.
That being said, I assume the passage you were referring to is Matthew 16:18-19. Now upon taking this text and reading it by itself, I would agree with you it sounds like a declaration of authority, the question we must determine is if the hearers (i.e. the disciples took it that way). Which I think if we follow Gods Word to the book of Acts (the instance in which I think you were referring to, Acts 15), we come to a problem with that interpretation.
A brief summary of the text is: The issue of circumcision for gentiles is raised by Paul and Barnabas, the Council and Elders meet to discuss it. Peter (probably) after considering the discussion gives his point of view openly (like he consistently did/does in Scripture), everyone goes silent and listens to what Paul and Barnabas have to say, then after a reflection from the OT James affirms and places his stamp of approval on Peters thought using various OT Scriptures to support it (Which we would assume would happen if the Spirit was guiding both of them). Then its finalized and sent out in letter form. I am curious to see how one could derive that Peter was the “final authority†(i.e. the Pope) in this discussion?
There is no doubt that he is a pillar within the Church and the Council, as are James and John (Gal 2:9), but it seems like there would need to be much more evidence to support your interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19 in this way. Which I’m not saying there isn’t, as I said before I know very little about the Roman Catholic position.
In regards to the Eucharist, I’m kind of confused by what you mean (again maybe its just me not understanding your terms because of my own ignorance on the subject) when you say, “the Eucharist is the Source and Summit of our Faithâ€, are you saying that without the Lord’s Supper there can be no origination of faith (source) and that through the Eucharist is the highest expression (summit) of your faith? Again I don’t want to put false statements and words into your mouth; I just want to understand the terms and your line of reasoning on the matter.
Your brother in Christ,
-Josh
Vance on 24 Jul 2007 at 3:43 pm #
Chad and Felicity, I do understand *what* the Catholic Church teaches, I just don’t *believe* that they are getting it right. Matthew 16:19 is better read, IMO, as giving the Gospel, which has the ability to either save or damn (ie, loose or bind) based on how the hearer receives. This power was given to ALL the Apostles, since they were all going out to teach and preach, as shown in John 20:21, etc. And this power of the Gospel, with its binding and loosing power, has preached ever since. And those who believe are the Church, who God will be with forever. I do not see where God founded an organization, but instead proclaimed a message. Yes, those who believed the message took pains to make sure that the true message was being passed along, and Paul even established a method for organization that could be used for this end. But I do not see, in Scripture, the strict apostolic succession that we see arise within a few generations.
Hans Kung, in his Short History of the Catholic Church walks through this pretty well. While I know he is not a Catholic that most Catholics would agree with, I think he shows that there is definitely an alternate understanding.
And that is where I am coming from, there ARE differing interpretations and it is circular reasoning in the extreme to assert that one must accept the Catholic Church’s interpretation because, according the Catholic Church’s interpretation, it has the sole authority to interpret.
Chad, as for the worship style, I am going back even earlier than the Didache and the early second century. The earliest examples of what worship and doctrine were like come from the NT itself and the style of worship, emphasis on experience and simplicity of doctrine are very similar the pentecostal church today. Even Luke Timothy Johnson, a Catholic and early Church scholar, admits as much.
ChadS on 24 Jul 2007 at 5:03 pm #
Vance,
I must respectfully disagree with your reading of Matthew 16:19. If that verse is merely speaking of the Gospel why does Jesus say specifically to Peter (and only to Peter) “you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church.” What we see is Jesus establishing a visible church on earth with Peter given the authority to “bind and loose” on earth and heaven — discerning and leading the Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
In John we see the Apostles sent out to make believers of all nations and take the good news to the ends of the earth. Towards the end of John, Jesus also tells Peter to “tend” his sheep and “feed” them. This is also another place where a position of authority is ascribed to Peter by Jesus.
One thing I wonder about in your comments is you say within a few generations a “strict apostolic succession” developed. You imply that this was not the case among the earliest Christians. How then did things go so wrong so fast? Surely at this time the Christian community was still small enough that if some members claimed a special authority that was passed on to them by the Apostles many others would’ve been around to stand up and say “no, you are claiming something new that never existed.” However we don’t see that. Bishops from the earliest times claimed to be successors to the apostles and in those communities there were people who remembered the apostles or were not too far removed from members that had been taught by apostles. Surely they wouldn’t have sat idly by as upstarts claimed power they did not rightfully have.
Vance, I did some further research and I discovered the dating I had for the Didache is off. The scholar J.P. Audet dates the Didache to within a decade of 70 A.D. That would certainly make it contemporary with the composition of much of the New Testament and several years before the Gospel of John and Revelation. Certainly St. Ignatius, who was martyred around 108 A.D. refers to the Eucharist as “the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,” in his letter to the Smyrnaeans. This letter would certainly be within the memory of those taught by the Apostles — so we see a very Catholic understanding of the Eucharist at these early dates. As I mentioned earlier surely other Christians would’ve stood up and put a stop to these “inventions” — unless these weren’t inventions at all — but actual Apostolic teachings faithfully handed on.
So perhaps our hypothetical 1st century Christian wouldn’t necessarily recognize the liturgy — Catholics do admit that the liturgy did develop, mainly from Jewish services — but they would definitely recognize the the doctrines being taught.
I don’t accept the Catholic Church’s authority to teach and interpret Scripture because it says so. If I did I would be guilty of circular reasoning. I accept the Church’s claims of authority because Scripture attests to it. It also makes the most sense to me. The Church has relentlessly and tirelessly defended the Gospel from corruption for centuries. Any quick study of history will reveal century after century of corrupted doctrines that Protestants would agree are erroneous.
Thanks for indulging me.
ChadS
Vance on 24 Jul 2007 at 5:32 pm #
My point is that there is an alternate view of those Scriptures. I am glad you accept the authority based on your reading of Scripture, and I would say that if that is your interpretation, then you should definitely follow the Catholic Church’s authority.
But, really, then are you following the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding Scriptural interpretation to begin with? If the CC says that only IT has the authority to interpret Scripture and that the believers must accept that interpretation, then how can you, as a Catholic, base your acceptance of that authority on your own interpretation to start off with? Where does your own authority to interpret even THAT verse come in to play to allow you to accept the CC’s authority? I still see some circularity problems there. It sounds like your independent interpretation got you in the door, and then you are able to accept everything from then on. What if you had interpreted those particular Scriptures differently (as do I and millions of other Protestants?). You would then never accept that authority to begin with . . ., etc.
Are there any Scriptural texts in which you would disagree with the CC’s interpretation but for your acceptance of it’s authority to interpret? If so, would you reject your own interpretation in favor of the CC’s?
On the Didache issue, it definitely could be as early as 70 AD, but we are not sure on that point. But the NT descriptions don’t seem to match up with that very closely. Now, I would agree that all of the basic elements are there to be grown from, but those same elements are there in the pentecostal church as well. My point is that the pentecostal church has those elements in the simpler, more direct forms, with less ceremony and formality we see developed in the CC today. As for style of worship, we see more preaching, less formality, less heirarchy, etc. Again, Has Kung has a good summary of this in his book.
As for how things could go wrong so quickly, I think we can see that in just about any organization. There is a tendency to formalization and heirarchy and division of power and authority in all groups. I think that those who were taught by the apostles were natural leaders, since there was a natural progression, since the “right hand man” of an apostle would be in a position of respect and even authority while that apostle was still alive. And, so, they would very often become leaders themselves. But I don’t think this was mandated at first, just a natural progression. But, when others began stepping up to become leaders of communities (since each community picked its own leaders early on), soon power struggles developed and those who had a link to the apostles or the followers of the apostles or the followers of the followers of the apostles began to assert that relationship as a basis of greater authority. Not because it was something they had ALL recognized and accepted up to that point, but because it was a good argument to make when disputes arose.
I think things like that can go wrong within a couple of generations easily.
Again, my point is not to argue that I am right on this point, but that there IS a reasonable alternative. So, if you go back to Felicity’s original response, the idea of “well, Michael, here is the answer you seek . . .” is a bit conclusive, and begging the question. If we had accepted the authority in the first place, we could just sit back and relax knowing that the Church was on the job. And that would definitely be a comforting feeling (very attractive, really). But I just can’t go there in good conscience.
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ChadS on 24 Jul 2007 at 9:14 pm #
Vance,
I believe that two Christians can sincerely and honestly interpret the same Bible passage differently. The discussions that arise out of those differences can provide insights that neither party may have anticipated or considered. Who knows maybe both could learn from it.
In many cases the interpretation I was led to coincided with RCC positions. Even with my Methodist background there were many positions that I shared with Catholicism. It wasn’t always an exact fit but they were often similar enough that all that was required was a little “fine tuning.” I didn’t come to Catholicism on a whim. It was a five year discernment where I felt the Holy Spirit guided me and gently tugged at me to lead me there. Believe me it wasn’t always easy, several times I tried to assert my own will over the whole process but when I finally let that go and trusted God things became a lot easier.
Now three years down the road I’m still learning. I consider that one of my primary responsibilities is to grow in my knowledge and faith. I yearn to study the Bible (something I had as a Protestant too, this isn’t anything new). I want to deeper appreciate the mystery and teachings of the Church. If I have questions or doubts about Church teachings I don’t automatically assert my will and say the Church has to be wrong. I try to understand the Church’s teaching, its reasoning and I try to understand why I’m coming to the different conclusion. I trust the Church’s teachings and authority because I believe it was instituted by Christ and has been led down through the centuries by the Holy Spirit.
That same Holy Spirit leads all who earnestly seek to know and love Christ. So yes our interpretations differ on some things, Vance, but I believe they both are leading to something even better and greater than us.
ChadS
Felicity on 24 Jul 2007 at 9:33 pm #
Vance,
Using the “historical-grammatical hermeneutic†Michael describes (and to which you said, “…I agree with entirely.â€), please explain how you interpret the Keys to the Kingdom and Binding and Loosing referred to in Matthew’s Gospel. Jesus HIMSELF referred to these Jewish traditional symbols for authority—the author and the audience would know EXACTLY what those terms meant. If you believe that the most rational perspective is such a hermeneutic as that Michael describes, why do you suppose Jesus would say such a thing, or why would the authors include such a reference if we are not to take those words and live the Gospel? What other interpretation is there—please share the way you understand Matthew 16:19?
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=191&letter=K
The expression “to bear the key on his shoulder” denotes possession of office (comp. Isa. xxii. 22). In the time of Ezra, four Levites, the chief porters, were in charge of the key of the Temple (I Chron. ix. 27). The key as a symbol of authority is also met with in the Talmud: “Three keys are in God’s own hand which He never entrusteth to any angel: the key of rain; that of childbirth; and that of the resurrection of the dead. The Western (Palestinian) Talmudists say also the key of nourishment”
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1073&letter=B
The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra, the Pharisees, says Josephus (”B J.” i, 5, § 2), “became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit whom they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind.” This does not mean that, as the learned men, they merely decided what, according to the Law, was forbidden or allowed, but that they possessed and exercised the power of tying or untying a thing by the spell of their divine authority, just as they could, by the power vested in them, pronounce and revoke an anathema upon a person. The various schools had the power “to bind and to loose”; that is, to forbid and to permit (Ḥag. 3b); and they could bind any day by declaring it a fast-day (Meg. Ta’an. xxii.; Ta’an. 12a; Yer. Ned. i. 36c, d). This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age or in the Sanhedrin (see Authority), received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, ix.; Mak. 23b).
JoanieD on 24 Jul 2007 at 10:11 pm #
Vance wrote, “Matthew 16:19 is better read, IMO, as giving the Gospel, which has the ability to either save or damn (ie, loose or bind) based on how the hearer receives. This power was given to ALL the Apostles, since they were all going out to teach and preach, as shown in John 20:21, etc. And this power of the Gospel, with its binding and loosing power, has preached ever since. And those who believe are the Church, who God will be with forever. I do not see where God founded an organization, but instead proclaimed a message.”
I agree. Vance. We read in Matthew 16:15-19 in the NIV where Jesus asks Peter: “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Peter, as we know, means “rock.” I believe Jesus was referring to Peter’s confession of faith in Jesus as being strong like a rock. And it was on that FAITH that Jesus was building his church. He was not building it on a person (other than himself). And it was all the people who had faith in Jesus who would have the “power” to bind and to loose. But, like so many things in the Bible, these passages are open to interpretation.
Joanie D.
Vance on 24 Jul 2007 at 10:14 pm #
Chad,
As a protestant, I am in pretty much the same position you were before your conversion. Especially as an Arminian, it is easy to agree with many teachings on salvation, etc. In fact, I have more in common with many Catholic interpretations than other forms of protestantism, such as stricter Calvinists. And your last paragraph is one of the teachings of the Catholic Church I appreciate and agree with the most. Regardless of the Pope’s recent statements, I think Catholic doctrine is actually very accepting of other denominations’ ultimate inclusion in the “body of Christ”.
Where we differ is the authority issue. You say that you don’t automatically assert your own will and consider the Church wrong. But are you not required to automatically, or at least ultimately, accept the interpretations of the Church, even if you would otherwise disagree? I understand that you seek to understand the Church’s teaching and interpretation, but if you can’t “get it” and your reason just can’t see it as correct, are you not required to just see this as your own shortfall, rather than consider that the Church might be wrong? Maybe my understanding of the Catholic Church’s teaching on this interpretation issue is too rigid and dogmatic.
Felicity on 24 Jul 2007 at 10:21 pm #
Josh—Thanks for responding,
***From Josh:
the question we must determine is if the hearers (i.e. the disciples took it that way). Which I think if we follow Gods Word to the book of Acts (the instance in which I think you were referring to, Acts 15), we come to a problem with that interpretation.
RESPONSE:
See my post to Vance above for further explanation as to why the hearers would see that as a declaration of authority.
***From Josh:
A brief summary of the text is: The issue of circumcision for gentiles is raised by Paul and Barnabas, the Council and Elders meet to discuss it…. . I am curious to see how one could derive that Peter was the “final authority†(i.e. the Pope) in this discussion?
RESPONSE:
I believe upon close reading of the text it is evident that Peter is in charge of a hierarchical authoritative Church. I am referring to Acts 15:1-15
15:2-3 There is a structured hierarchical early church that sends Paul and Barnabas out and calls them back. Peter speaks with authority first—and the assembly listens.
15:4 Peter refers to his appointment by God. ~~And yet James made the final judgment
15:12 At Peter’s words, the whole assembly listened..
Some see an issue because it is James that makes the final pronouncement—but that is not unusual for the circumstances—James was the one who was in support of circumcision (Gal.2:12), the council met in the town where he was bishop.
however—
15 8-11 Peter speaks FIRST and states his conclusion in clear terms that the grace of the Lord was for all men.
Of course James followed the authority laid out by Peter. Peter said:
James simply follows suit and officially declares what Peter stated.
15:14 -15 James even acknowledges Peters authority in this matter by stating Peter (Symeon) was the recipient of Divine Revelation.
Peter issues the “doctrinal†teaching and James follows the doctrinal teaching with his “pastoral†teaching
***From Josh:
In regards to the Eucharist, …when you say, “the Eucharist is the Source and Summit of our Faithâ€, …I just want to understand the terms and your line of reasoning on the matter.
RESPONSE:
Catholics believe that the Eucharist is Christ in the flesh as described in John 6. It is Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity—really present—Jesus Himself. So, to say the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith, it is saying that JESUS is at the center of our worship and we intimately commune with him each time we receive Him in the Catholic Mass. We physically encounter Jesus and consume Him—he nourishes us both physically and spiritually—we take Him into our bodies LITERALLY as well as spiritually celebrate His sacrifice with the entire Church and carry Him out into the world within us on our mission to share Him with the world.
I hope that helps!
Peace,
Felicity
Felicity on 24 Jul 2007 at 10:23 pm #
Vance,
Using the “historical-grammatical hermeneutic†Michael describes (and to which you said, “…I agree with entirely.â€), please explain how you interptret the Keys to the Kingdom and Binding and Loosing referred to in Matthew’s Gospel. Jesus HIMSELF referred to these Jewish traditional symbols for authority—the author and the audience would know EXACTLY what those terms meant. If you believe that the most rational perspective is such a hermeneutic as that Michael describes, why do you suppose Jesus would say such a thing, or why would the authors include such a reference if we are not to take those words and live the Gospel? What other interpretation is there—please share the way you understand Matthew 16:19?
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=191&letter=K
The expression “to bear the key on his shoulder” denotes possession of office (comp. Isa. xxii. 22). In the time of Ezra, four Levites, the chief porters, were in charge of the key of the Temple (I Chron. ix. 27). The key as a symbol of authority is also met with in the Talmud: “Three keys are in God’s own hand which He never entrusteth to any angel: the key of rain; that of childbirth; and that of the resurrection of the dead. The Western (Palestinian) Talmudists say also the key of nourishment”
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1073&letter=B
The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra, the Pharisees, says Josephus (”B J.” i, 5, § 2), “became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit whom they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind.” This does not mean that, as the learned men, they merely decided what, according to the Law, was forbidden or allowed, but that they possessed and exercised the power of tying or untying a thing by the spell of their divine authority, just as they could, by the power vested in them, pronounce and revoke an anathema upon a person. The various schools had the power “to bind and to loose”; that is, to forbid and to permit (Ḥag. 3b); and they could bind any day by declaring it a fast-day (Meg. Ta’an. xxii.; Ta’an. 12a; Yer. Ned. i. 36c, d). This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age or in the Sanhedrin (see Authority), received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, ix.; Mak. 23b).
Felicity on 24 Jul 2007 at 10:24 pm #
Josh–I don’t know why my post to Vance has disappeared…It was here a minute ago.
Felicity on 24 Jul 2007 at 10:27 pm #
Josh–I tried to repost it but it won’t go through…I’d be happy to share it with you but…???? It had to do with binding and loosing and the keys to the kingdom with specific references to Jewish explanations of those terms per the historical-grammatical hermeneutic being promoted here….STRANGE.
Felicity on 25 Jul 2007 at 6:24 am #
Josh–well…now it’s back. Strange indeed! see post 30 for the material I referenced in my post to you.
Thanks.
Felicity on 25 Jul 2007 at 6:29 am #
Apparently it’s also posted at #34…Well…it doesn’t need to be there TWICE!
WEIRD.
ChadS on 25 Jul 2007 at 7:17 am #
Vance,
In my theological beliefs I was Arminian long before I knew what an Arminian was. I’m sure as you know the Wesleyean tradition is very Arminian. At times it seems it stands at polar ends of the spectrum when compared with Calvinism.
I agree Catholics see much that is good and holy in other Christian churches. I think that clarifying statement issued by the Pope a few weeks has been misunderstood and it doesn’t help when various media outlets quote 3 lines from a 3 or 4 page document.
Let me see if I can explain my understanding of what is required and allowed in my own interpretations. My understanding may be lacking but I’ll give it my best shot. First defined doctrines aren’t open for debate. So I couldn’t question whether Christ was anything less than wholly human and wholly divine.
Things like private revelation never have a binding authority on the believer. So over the years the Church has proclaimed that apparitions like those at Fatima and Lourdes are genuine and can be venerated. However as a believer I am in no way bound to accept those apparitions as legitimate or acknowledge them in anyway. Any messages that came from those apparitions or seers in no way added anything new or different to the Catholic faith.
Even some things concerning the social teachings of the Church can be viewed differently by various members. The Church is pretty much opposed to the death penalty but in that instance that is where honest disagreement can exist. Church members can disagree on the best ways to deal with immigrants and migrant workers that differs from the letters of bishops.
What I’m saying is there is no blanket of this is right and this is wrong covering Catholicism. Public revelation (such as the Bible, faith and morals) is generally less open for interpretation. In some other areas more gray area is allowed. I suppose that you are right, it is my duty to ascent and trust in the teachings if I just don’t get it. So far I’d say I haven’t found anything that would make me consider leaving for another church.
Felicity — your quotes from the jewishencyclopedia were great and I think got to the heart of the Catholic position.
ChadS
Josh on 25 Jul 2007 at 10:32 am #
It’s difficult for me to see where there is any reference to Peter (aside from the fact we could consider him an Elder and Apostle) found within this text. I do not understand your reasoning for quoting these texts. I am not disagreeing with you that the Apostles were considered the “Heads†of the Church and that they were located in Jerusalem, I’m just curious how Peter comes up in these passages because I don’t see it anywhere.
I do agree with your assessment of the situation before Peter speaks, at least I think I do (correct me if I’m wrong). It would seem to me in this situation there would be a large argument over the issue of the Law of Moses, both sides going back and fourth at each other (similar to the Arminian and Calvinist type arguments) with neither side really convincing the other, then Peter prompted by the Holy Spirit stood up and in essence said, “enough, this is getting us no whereâ€, and spoke the words in which God’s Spirit guided Him to say.
I think we agree at that point, but I have trouble seeing how you link verses 14 & 15 together to come up with the idea that James is affirming that Peter should be considered the ultimate authority on the issue.
Just a reflection of common human experience seems to point to the opposite. For example, there have been often times in my life where things have been extremely hectic (similar to this situation of arguments and debates going no where) where God has used someone to point out or tell me the simplest or best route in solving the problem that has consumed my attention so deeply that I’ve throw basic common sense out the window because the stress of the situation has over taken me. Essentially giving them a “window†of peace that allows them to discern the situation and come to the most reasonable conclusion. This does not mean that everything this person says has the authorative governing over my actions, it simply allows me to slow down, stop and think about the situation and put things back into their proper perspectives (Acts 15:12). Then I can affirm that, “yes this is best thing to do†(Acts 15:13-14). I don’t understand the necessity of having one single person as the “Head†as oppose to having a group of Elders as the authorative body of the Church which seems to be what this text leads us to believe.
The closing of the letter seems to be the most damaging to the line of reasoning in which you use because if Peter was the “authority†of the Church why would they “send this letter by them, the apostles and brethren who are elders.� (Acts 15:23) Rather than sending it through a hierarchy form, I.e. Peter first, James, etc in which you described was being used?
Thank you for this wonderful and insightful conversation.
Your brother in Christ,
-Josh
Josh on 25 Jul 2007 at 10:33 am #
hrm so the first half of my #40 comment didnt go through here it is lol.
Felicity,
I like the Jewish citations they are very insightful and helpful, I will have to look into them more thank you for the wonderful resource.
Perhaps I am not following you Felicity when you list Acts 15:2-4 as having anything to do with Peter’s authority or even referring to his appointment by God.
And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them,{the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. (Acts 15:2-4, NASB)
C Michael Patton on 25 Jul 2007 at 11:42 am #
Thanks for having such a civil discussion guys. I am out for one day and voilà ! 30 more posts! That is great.
I agree with you all on this at one vital point, the issue comes down to one of authority. (In reality, it always does)
I admire and see very clearly the reasons why people, in the early church and now, have sought an ultimate human authority in these matters. What I have presented in this blog is an authority based upon authorial intent hermeneutic relegated by the community of God who hold each other accountable for novel interpretation that goes against both the author’s intent and the regula fide of the historic Christian faith.
While I would love to have an ultimate infallible authority that is human who can make all these decisions for us, I just cannot find justification for this either in history or Scripture.
I agree with Vance very much here:
“But, really, then are you following the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding Scriptural interpretation to begin with? If the CC says that only IT has the authority to interpret Scripture and that the believers must accept that interpretation, then how can you, as a Catholic, base your acceptance of that authority on your own interpretation to start off with? Where does your own authority to interpret even THAT verse come in to play to allow you to accept the CC’s authority? I still see some circularity problems there. It sounds like your independent interpretation got you in the door, and then you are able to accept everything from then on. What if you had interpreted those particular Scriptures differently (as do I and millions of other Protestants?). You would then never accept that authority to begin with . . ., etc.”
Ultimately, it seems very circular since any ultimate trust placed in an institutionalized infallible authority is trust that has its genesis in a fallible human who does not have authority. Therefore, it comes down to being a fallible trust in an infallible source. Therefore, we are back at square one. The certainty that we seek diminishes to our own weakness.
Concerning Matt 16:19:
This is a very difficult text to interpret so any claims to understanding must be done with great humility understanding that it is not clear. Unfortunately, the obscurity of the text lends forth to the possibility of reading into the text what our presuppositions demand (this is common with all obscure texts–like “Baptism for the dead” and the Mormon understanding). I would follow Augustine’s principle here that we never build a doctrine around obscure texts.
Having said that I would agree with Chad and Felicity that the most probable reading of the text does focus attention on Peter who receives the “keys” and “binding and loosing.” I would also be inclined to believe that the “binding and loosing” does have to do with divine authority relegated through the Peter. Being in the perfect tense, I am inclined to say that this gives further indication that this authority is a mediated authority. This does not exclude the other apostle from this authority since other passages, as Joanne mentioned, do give the same “binding and loosing” authority to them as well. However, I would not necessarily limit this authority to the apostle. They may be representative of all believers who have this authority. We must understand that, as with the great commission, some things were spoken to the apostle as representatives of everyone in the church. Just as we all are to go into all the world so we are to “bind and loose.”
The two primary exegetical difficulties come when we attempt to definitely define what the “keys” are and what “binding and loosing” entails. I think we should be humbled by many honest exegete’s conclusions that this is not easy.
From my stand point to read this passage as “The binding and loosing is the ultimate infallibility of the visible church represented by Peter whose keys of ultimate authority are to be passed on from generation to generation” is far outside the parameters of our ability to say. Exegetically and theologically this is a hard pill to swallow. From an exegetical stand point there is no indication that this proclamation from Christ carried such a lofty meaning. It does not seem that the apostles themselves ever indicated that they interpreted it as such as they never expanded upon this at any time or utilized the authority of Peter in such a way. In fact, Peter seems to lose authority as Paul comes on the scene and takes over the focus on the book of Acts and even has to correct Peter. Acts 15 sees Peter as taking a back seat to James. This is not to undermine Peter, but simply to show how he did not seem to be as prominent as the Catholic interpretation of Matt 16 suggests. We also have the issue of transferal of the “keys” (ultimate infallible authority) that is never illustrated either in precept or example in the Scriptures (or even in the early church).
Theologically, if the keys were passed on, and these keys represented a prophetic like role of speaking on behalf of God, then the “signs of a prophet” must be seen in order for us to responsible believe that a person speaks infallibly on behalf of God (Deut 13, 18). I can’t just believe anyone who claims to speak on behalf of God and have fidelity to my mind. This is why protective measures were given in the Old Testament. God did not want anyone claiming to have infallible authority who did not show the signs.
Therefore, I would say that the only option that we have (unless God does send a verified prophet) is to interpret the Scriptures with regards to the author’s intent. Otherwise, we may become Gnostic-like in our interpretations, not humbly admitting that the reading that we may see is really not so clear. We are held accountable to those who have gone before us, knowing that God’s spirit was with them as well and we had better think seriously about departing from them theologically, yet the rightly interpreted Scripture (when available) is our ultimate and only infallible authority. When we cannot be certain about our interpretation, we don’t build too much doctrine around it. Hold on to it loosely.
Felicity on 25 Jul 2007 at 11:55 am #
***From Josh:
Perhaps I am not following you Felicity when you list Acts 15:2-4 as having anything to do with Peter’s authority or even referring to his appointment by God.
RESPONSE:
2-4 is merely pointing out the hierarchical Church structure that can send out and call back its ministers. as you note in your quotation—“the brethren decided†to call Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem, and further, that they were “sent on their way by the church.†This denotes an authority to which Paul and Barnabas were subject.
As for Peter’s primacy…if what you state is what you believe, I think we are in agreement up to the question of James’ affirmation of Paul’s authority…I’ll try to word it differently so you can see what I mean.
http://biblebrowser.com/acts/15-14.htm
James refers to Simon Peter’s revelation from God as authoritative DESPITE his original objections as noted in Galatians 2–
~~~~~~~~~~
9 and when they recognized the grace bestowed upon me, James and Cephas and John, 8 who were reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas their right hands in partnership, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
10 Only, we were to be mindful of the poor, 9 which is the very thing I was eager to do.
11 10 11 And when Kephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he clearly was wrong.
12 For, until some people came from James, 12 he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to draw back and separated himself, because he was afraid of the circumcised.
13 And the rest of the Jews 13 (also) acted hypocritically along with him, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that they were not on the right road in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Kephas in front of all, “If you, though a Jew, are living like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
~~~~~~~~~~
–Peter made the proclamation in Acts 15:7-11 as to what the Doctrinal Truth of the matter was:
~~~~~~~~~~
7 4 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?
11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.” 5
~~~~~~~~~~
After which James stated:
~~~~~~~~~~
13 6 After they had fallen silent, James responded, “My brothers, listen to me.
14 Symeon 7 has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name.
15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as is written:
16 ‘After this I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; from its ruins I shall rebuild it and raise it up again,
17 so that the rest of humanity may seek out the Lord, even all the Gentiles on whom my name is invoked. Thus says the Lord who accomplishes these things,
18 known from of old.’
19 It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God,
20 but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood.
~~~~~~~~~~
>>In 13-14 James references Peter’s god-given authority via the HS revelation to Peter.
>>In 15-18 James acknowledges that Peter’s pronouncement on the matter is indeed in accord with the prophets (pastoral teaching).
>>In 19 James says that in light of Peter’s pronouncement and its agreement with the words of the prophets, he advises they follow the doctrinal statement originally made by Peter as guided by the Holy Spirit and in accord/verifiable with the words of the prophets. (this is pastoral teaching also)
>>In 20 James further demonstrates that his judgment is pastoral teaching by giving specifics as to how this doctrine should be carried out.
This is totally appropriate to the particular apostles roles as Primary Leader of the Faith (Pope Peter) and as an Episcopate Leader of the Faith (Bishop of Jerusalem James the Greater)
I hope that clears up the reasoning I am using. By the way—today is the Catholic feast day for James the Greater!
Peace of the Risen Christ,
Felicity
Vance on 25 Jul 2007 at 12:17 pm #
Yes, Felicity, I agree entirely that the concept of keys is tied to authority, even specific authority, but I don’t see any cultural contextual reason to think that it must refer to an office, much less an exclusive office. The authority given was the possession of the “key”, which as the texts you quote make clear, refers to the ability to open a door, even exclusive authority. And Peter was, indeed, the first to preach this exclusive ability to open a door to the Kingdom and enter: the Gospel message. But Peter was not given that message, or its power to allow entry, exclusively, as can be seen all over the rest of the NT. Again, this is an alternative reading which is perfectly in line with the context of the original hearers, while still being consistent with the remainder of the NT text in which Peter is just one of many, many people who are preaching the Gospel on the one hand and organizing the actual church community on the other.
As for the binding and loosing, while that can mean a lot of things, it is something that was meant for ALL the apostles (see Matthew 18:18), and if to all of them, then we must consider that it is tied to their role as preachers of the Gospel message, rather than as a specific group of individuals.
My point goes back to the original concept: to accept without question the interpretation given by an institution, I have to be convinced that the institution, without doubt, has that authority, based on what I read in Scripture. Scripture on this issue simply doesn’t speak that to me that clearly. Not to mention the remaining half-dozen hurdles that must be gotten over for me to believe that specific authority exists (see my earlier post). There is still a LONG way to go before I could, with intellectual honesty and conviction, accept that that type of interpretive authority exists in the Catholic Church exclusively today.
BTW, Felicity, you have a tendency to speak of your interpretation of these texts as obviously only having one possible meaning, as if you have not read the alternate readings which have existed for hundreds of years. You say, basically “what possible other explanation can there be?” I find this a bit disengenous since I am sure you have studied the interpretations given by other Christian groups, and so already know what other interpretations there are. Here is one, for example, more than 300 years old (so not some newfangled viewpoint):
“And I will give unto thee”; not unto thee exclusively, that is, to thee and no others; for as we no where read of any such power used by Peter, so our Saviour’s first question, Whom think you that I am? Letteth us know that his speech, though directed to Peter only, (who in the name of the rest first answered), concerned the rest of the apostles as well as Peter. Besides, as we know that the other apostles had as well as he the key of knowledge and doctrine, and by their preaching opened the kingdom of heaven to men; so the key of discipline also was committed to the rest as well as unto him: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained, #Joh 20:22,23. The keys of the kingdom of heaven; the whole administration of the gospel, both with reference to the publication of the doctrine of it, and the dispensing out the ordinances of it. We read of the key of knowledge, which the scribes and Pharisees took away, #Lu 11:52, and the key of government: The key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder, #Isa 22:21, I will commit thy government into his hand; which is applied to Christ, #Re 3:7. The sense is, Peter, I will betrust thee, and the rest of my apostles, with the whole administration of my gospel; you shall lay the foundation of the Christian church, and administer all the affairs of it, opening the truths of my gospel to the world, and governing those who shall receive the faith of the gospel.
[Poole's Commentary]
Felicity on 25 Jul 2007 at 12:19 pm #
PS–I think it’s kinda funny to note that in verse 20, James is still clinging to some of the requirements of the “law”–just not the circumcision issue. Do you think his heart was in with his pronouncement to follow Peter’s words? I just love how the Apostle’s are just regular guys in so many ways!
F.
Felicity on 25 Jul 2007 at 1:32 pm #
Thanks Michael—
I want to address a few things you mention…
***From CMP:
Where does your own authority to interpret even THAT verse come in to play to allow you to accept the CC’s authority?
RESPONSE:
I have stated Scripture and Church Authority are co-equal. The two are not contrary to one another—along with Sacred Tradition (Apostolic teaching “implicit†in the Scriptures) the three act in a mirror of the Trinitarian union. Where one is, so are the other two. The three NEVER contradict one another, although in some instances one mode of the two modes of Divine Revelation (Scripture/Sacred Tradition) may be more “explicit†than the other.
Hence—I can read and interpret the Scriptures, and I can do it all by my pitiful lonesome self—but my interpretation holds no water unless it is in union with the entire Revelation of God. Then, my interpretation of the Scriptures is not really my interpretation (as you note), it is what it is God’s Revelation cross verified. I have no need to have MY interpretation be the correct interpretation–I am more than happy to submit my will to the Will of God as He reveals it to man.
***From CMP:
I still see some circularity problems there. It sounds like your independent interpretation got you in the door, and then you are able to accept everything from then on. What if you had interpreted those particular Scriptures differently (as do I and millions of other Protestants?). You would then never accept that authority to begin with . . ., etc.â€
RESPONSE:
I used to be a Protestant too—of the Baptist persuasion. The Truth has a funny way of boring into the consciousness. I think God does it that way on purpose to encourage humility.
Never say never
***From CMP:
Ultimately, it seems very circular since any ultimate trust placed in an institutionalized infallible authority is trust that has its genesis in a fallible human who does not have authority. Therefore, it comes down to being a fallible trust in an infallible source. Therefore, we are back at square one. The certainty that we seek diminishes to our own weakness.
RESPONSE:
This is an incorrect understanding of the charism of infallibility. God is infallible—not man—not the man who is Pope. God is the one who acts through his human instrument the Pope. I trust the words of Jesus—who said He was with the Church for all time. Faith is trust. I would think proponents of Sola Fide would understand this notion rather than suggest it is a circular reasoning.
***From CMP:
Concerning Matt 16:19:….The two primary exegetical difficulties come when we attempt to definitely define what the “keys†are and what “binding and loosing†entails. I think we should be humbled by many honest exegete’s conclusions that this is not easy.
RESPONSE:
~~~~~~~~~~
2Pet.3:1-2, 16
[1] This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[2] That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:….
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
~~~~~~~~~~
***From CMP:
From my stand point to read this passage as “The binding and loosing is the ultimate infallibility of the visible church represented by Peter whose keys of ultimate authority are to be passed on from generation to generation†is far outside the parameters of our ability to say. Exegetically and theologically this is a hard pill to swallow. From an exegetical stand point there is no indication that this proclamation from Christ carried such a lofty meaning.
RESPONSE:
You can argue with history, but then aren’t you arguing with your own hermeneutic?
***From CMP:
Theologically, if the keys were passed on, and these keys represented a prophetic like role of speaking on behalf of God, then the “signs of a prophet†must be seen in order for us to responsible believe that a person speaks infallibly on behalf of God (Deut 13, 18).
Keys were not for prophets—they were originally an indication of Levitical Authority. Your objection doesn’t apply to the historical facts of the issue. Neither the “keys†nor the power of “binding and loosing†has anything at all to do with prophesy, so I do not understand this particular requirement of “signs of a prophet†that you impose. Could you explain more fully the historical connection you are making?
ChadS on 25 Jul 2007 at 1:52 pm #
Michael,
You are right this does come down to authority. I saw in many churches people with widely divergent interpretations of Scripture. Some of the arguments seemed minor others struck to the very heart of what salvation, grace and the Christian life means. It sometimes seemed that even the ministers of the church I belonged to were unwilling to offer up anything more than “different people sometimes believe different things.” Nobody seemed willing or able to offer anything more than a mushy interpretation of Scripture, one designed more not to offend than to clarify.
So, in my opinion, what existed was a tyranny of the minority. Everybody’s interpretation was just as good as anybody else’s. Granted I never saw a church turn into a cult or anything too wacky. But to a person that believed that Christianity should be unified, clear and speak with one voice I was left wanting.
When I examined the claims of the Catholic Church, they offered and seem able to logically and coherently defend their beliefs and interpretations. Granted this is one minor part of what ended being a 5 year journey — but the issue of authority played a huge part in my decision to convert.
ChadS
Felicity on 25 Jul 2007 at 2:21 pm #
Vance:
I find nothing contrary to the Catholic view of the Magisterium in Poole’s Commentary. What is it that you think would give me pause?
Felicity
Felicity on 25 Jul 2007 at 2:25 pm #
Vance: Also…this might help you understand why I see no contradiction in Poole’s Commentary.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm
Vance on 25 Jul 2007 at 3:59 pm #
I think the problem I would have expected would be with the idea that Peter was not singled out in any important way, according to Poole. It was all the apostles equally. To me this signifies a non-heirarchical structure, or at least a looser structure, with less centralization than the Catholic Church has developed over the centuries.
C Michael Patton on 25 Jul 2007 at 5:47 pm #
Felicity, a prophet could be an office or an act. The principle understanding behind being a prophet is to represent God to the people, revealing and interpreting His word. This is what it has always been. Once any human or institution claims infallibility, they are claiming an attribute that only belongs to God. In short, they are claiming the to be a prophet for God, no matter how it is termed. My point is not that I would not accept a prophet (for God can send one any time He chooses–even today), but that I would not accept one without some kind of evidence that He was sent from God. It seems to me that these are God’s rules, not mine. They make good sense and protect God’s name and His reputation. Otherwise, anyone could claim infallible authority at any time.
My point about infallibility being circular is that if you are fallible, then even your belief in the Church is fallible. Therefore, you have the same starting point as anyone else, your own fallibility. In other words, you have a fallible belief in an infallible churches statements about infallible Scripture. I have a fallible belief about infallible Scripture. What is the difference when we both have our initial belief qualified by our own fallibility. In the end, our own private judgment must be made. In your case directly for the Church, in my case directly for the Scriptures. The evidence and conviction must decide.
Please believe me when I say that I respect and understand your decision to make such a choice. While I do believe it is wrong, I respect all that goes into making such a decision and your reasons for doing so.
C Michael Patton on 25 Jul 2007 at 5:56 pm #
Chad,
I sympathize with your experience as I have seen the same thing–especially among laity. But those who are educated and committed are different. You would say the same thing in the Catholic church. There are those who are educated and committed and then there are the cafeteria sort.
I belong to Evangelical Theological Society. This has encouraged me about the ethos of evangelicals who are truly understanding and committed. When I go to the meetings each year and experience the interaction and community, I find that the majority are unified among many core essentials. They key here is that they don’t even have anyone dictating what those essentials are, but most are in agreement. This is one of the reasons why I started Reclaiming the Mind Ministries. I see a great disconnect in understanding between the pew and those who are educated. Certainly this is not always the case. But among Evangelicals in general, you will find an ethos of unity.
Please don’t take this as a statement that Evangelicalism has no problems. In fact, I think we are undergoing a major identity crisis that you may sense even by the c