Comments on: What Comes to Mind When You Hear the Word “Dispensationalism”? (Part 1) http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/ Just another WordPress weblog Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:03:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: Jeff Rutland's Blog http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-835 Jeff Rutland's Blog Tue, 26 Jun 2007 20:19:24 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-835 <strong>Tourist Guide to End Times Dispensationalism</strong> Recently, I taught a lengthy Wed. night series on Eschatology, End Times and Millennialism. One request that I kept getting was for me to show in a single document what the differences are in the various forms of theology about end times. That's nearl... Tourist Guide to End Times Dispensationalism

Recently, I taught a lengthy Wed. night series on Eschatology, End Times and Millennialism. One request that I kept getting was for me to show in a single document what the differences are in the various forms of theology about end times. That’s nearl…

]]> By: Ed Komoszewski http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-834 Ed Komoszewski Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:05:07 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-834 Curt, I’m sure that you could teach me a thing (or three!) on these fronts. But, for what it’s worth, I think that historic premillennialists can see no essential distinction between Israel and the Church and still locate ethnic Israel in future prophecy for one primary reason: some Old Testament texts originally applied to ethnic Israel (or at least a remnant within ethnic Israel) are just too hard to squeeze into the present age or the age of the eternal kingdom. Texts like Isaiah 11 and 65 come to mind here. In each of those texts, we read of semi-restored conditions that go beyond our experience now but also fall short of the sinless perfection of the eternal kingdom. Historic premillennialists thus locate these texts in a restored earthly kingdom between the present age and eternity. You might have some other insights into this matter. If so, I’m all <strike>ears</strike> eyes! Curt, I’m sure that you could teach me a thing (or three!) on these fronts. But, for what it’s worth, I think that historic premillennialists can see no essential distinction between Israel and the Church and still locate ethnic Israel in future prophecy for one primary reason: some Old Testament texts originally applied to ethnic Israel (or at least a remnant within ethnic Israel) are just too hard to squeeze into the present age or the age of the eternal kingdom. Texts like Isaiah 11 and 65 come to mind here. In each of those texts, we read of semi-restored conditions that go beyond our experience now but also fall short of the sinless perfection of the eternal kingdom. Historic premillennialists thus locate these texts in a restored earthly kingdom between the present age and eternity.

You might have some other insights into this matter. If so, I’m all ears eyes!

]]> By: Curt http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-833 Curt Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:43:01 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-833 Ed, Thanks for the response. I appreciate your clarity regarding the timing of the rapture in each view. And I've heard the same distinction made concerning how each view perceives Israel and the church. What has caused me pause with this distinction is a historic premillennialist such as Doug Moo who seems to place great importance in the fulfillment of prophecy specifically intended for ethnic Israel. Does this just show a diversity of views within historic premillennialism, or am I missing some nuance? Thanks again! Curt Ed,

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your clarity regarding the timing of the rapture in each view. And I’ve heard the same distinction made concerning how each view perceives Israel and the church. What has caused me pause with this distinction is a historic premillennialist such as Doug Moo who seems to place great importance in the fulfillment of prophecy specifically intended for ethnic Israel. Does this just show a diversity of views within historic premillennialism, or am I missing some nuance?

Thanks again!
Curt

]]> By: Ed Komoszewski http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-832 Ed Komoszewski Fri, 15 Jun 2007 08:53:08 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-832 Curt, you’re right that there’s a lot of overlap between historic premillennialism and progressive dispensationalism (e.g., both systems view Christ’s reign [i.e., his rule from David’s throne] as spiritually inaugurated though it still awaits a physical consummation). However, there are a few differences. First, whereas historic premillennialism sees no distinction whatsoever between Israel and the church, progressive dispensationalism assigns the church its own identity within God’s single redemptive plan. We might say that progressive dispensationalism sees one people of God with two different roles in the history of salvation. Second (and things get a bit fuzzy here), historic premillennialists are post-tribulational, whereas progressive dispensationalists seem, for the most part, to be pre-tribulational. However, there is nothing that would keep a progressive dispensationalist from being post-tribulational. Unlike the case with revised dispensationalism (which maintains a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church), a pre-tribulation rapture is not a defining feature of the progressive dispensational system. These are the main differences, as far as I can tell. Curt, you’re right that there’s a lot of overlap between historic premillennialism and progressive dispensationalism (e.g., both systems view Christ’s reign [i.e., his rule from David’s throne] as spiritually inaugurated though it still awaits a physical consummation). However, there are a few differences.

First, whereas historic premillennialism sees no distinction whatsoever between Israel and the church, progressive dispensationalism assigns the church its own identity within God’s single redemptive plan. We might say that progressive dispensationalism sees one people of God with two different roles in the history of salvation.

Second (and things get a bit fuzzy here), historic premillennialists are post-tribulational, whereas progressive dispensationalists seem, for the most part, to be pre-tribulational. However, there is nothing that would keep a progressive dispensationalist from being post-tribulational. Unlike the case with revised dispensationalism (which maintains a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church), a pre-tribulation rapture is not a defining feature of the progressive dispensational system.

These are the main differences, as far as I can tell.

]]> By: Parchment and Pen » What Comes to Mind When You Hear the Word “Dispensationalism”? (Part 2) http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-827 Parchment and Pen » What Comes to Mind When You Hear the Word “Dispensationalism”? (Part 2) Thu, 14 Jun 2007 05:38:02 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-827 [...] Part 1 we introduced the three following schools of dispensational [...] [...] Part 1 we introduced the three following schools of dispensational [...]

]]> By: Carrie Hunter http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-831 Carrie Hunter Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:43:56 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-831 OOPS it was Ed! Great post Ed. :-D OOPS it was Ed!

Great post Ed. :-D

]]> By: Curt http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-830 Curt Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:22:32 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-830 Great article, and I appreciate your irenic approach. Would you at some point address the differences between progressive dispensationalism and historic premillennialism? There seems to be a lot of overlap with these two views and not many clear descriptions of the distinctions. Thanks! Great article, and I appreciate your irenic approach. Would you at some point address the differences between progressive dispensationalism and historic premillennialism? There seems to be a lot of overlap with these two views and not many clear descriptions of the distinctions. Thanks!

]]> By: Ed Komoszewski http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-826 Ed Komoszewski Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:11:41 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-826 Preacher Jack, thanks for sharing your insights on Darby. Please note that I intentionally refrained from calling Darby "the father of dispensational theology." Rather, I simply noted that he was the first to <i>widely</i> promote classic dispensationalism. I agree that dispensational and covenant systems are not as far removed from one another as some of us were first led to believe. Indeed, they're often only separated by a few interpretive judgments that could, frankly, go either way. I'm further convinced that some differences are simply a matter of perspective. Dispensationalists and non-dispensationalists alike have stressed certain truths to the exclusion of others. And we all have our blind spots. Thus, each of us would do well to remember this simple fact: oftentimes what an opposing view sees is not wrong; it's just not all there is to see. Preacher Jack, thanks for sharing your insights on Darby. Please note that I intentionally refrained from calling Darby “the father of dispensational theology.” Rather, I simply noted that he was the first to widely promote classic dispensationalism.

I agree that dispensational and covenant systems are not as far removed from one another as some of us were first led to believe. Indeed, they’re often only separated by a few interpretive judgments that could, frankly, go either way.

I’m further convinced that some differences are simply a matter of perspective. Dispensationalists and non-dispensationalists alike have stressed certain truths to the exclusion of others. And we all have our blind spots. Thus, each of us would do well to remember this simple fact: oftentimes what an opposing view sees is not wrong; it’s just not all there is to see.

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-828 C Michael Patton Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:00:56 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-828 1. <strong>rumblebelly</strong> on 12 Jun 2007 at 11:06 pm Great post. I grew up reading the Scofield Bible and Pentecost so glad to see the differences. If you could list your book recommendations at the end of the series it would be great. Thanks Juan 2. <strong>C Michael Patton</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 1:21 am Great post Ed. I share your feelings about the subject and am glad that you wrote on this. I don’t think I have ever heard one anti-dispensationalist represent the view fairly. I hope that this will cause people to rethink the subject and at the very least give dispensationalists are fair shake. But, sad to say, I don’t think the alternative positions have been traditionally handled well by many dispensationalists. 3. <strong>Ed Komoszewski</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 2:03 am You’re absolutely correct, Michael: dispensationalists have historically blown hot air at too many straw men—especially when it comes to amillennialism. I’m just as tired of hearing the “amillennialists spiritualize the text” mantra as I am of hearing that the most sophisticated dispensational hermeneutic is like a Ginsu ripping through a soda can (remember those commercials?). It’s almost comical to read amillennialists and dispensationalists of past generations accusing one another of mimicking the hermeneutic of liberals. But is our contemporary dialog in certain evangelical quarters really any less embarrassing? 4. <strong>Preacher Jack</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 10:19 am Ed I agree that when someone wants to trash Dispensationlism they usually start with a description that isn’t well researched, cherry picked or slanted to help prove their position. However, when current dispensationalists defend their position they have to beware not to fall into one of two traps. The first is to present Scoffield’s mutation of the dispensation theology he learned from J.N. Darby as Darby’s views. I have read a lot of Darby’s letters and his writings and Scoffield did not correctly represent Darby or what he taught on the subject. There are many avenues for us to read what Darby said on the matter (in print and on line). May I also suggest that today’s dispensationalists read a guy buy the name of William Kelly who was a contemporary of J.N. Darby. The second trap they fall into is to think that those from the non-dispensational camp have it all wrong (don’t feel bad covenant theologians make the same mistake). I have spent time with both those who are adherents to covenant theology and those who are adherents to dispensational theology and it is my impression that there is allot on both sides they are right on but they cloak it in terminology and are willing to fight to the death over verbiage then listen to each other. You cannot read the bible and deny God makes covenants with man. You also can not read the bible and realize that there were eras, epoch or time periods (dispensations) and under both God revealed more and more of Himself to us. Oh and If I can offer a little disagreement on something about Darby and him being the father of dispensational theology (before I finish). Darby was part of a movement called “Plymouth Brethren” which started before he joined the movement after leaving the Anglican Church. He is labeled with this title because he was a prolific writer and these writings have survived and unfortunately the others have not. The group had held to dispensational theology before he joined. 5. <strong>Eriol</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 10:35 am For all our theological studies, I wonder at times if we are not seven blind men exploring an elephant and arguing about our differing conclusions. Perhaps we are right to an extent but, sadly, all wrong at the same time. 6. <strong>Carrie Hunter</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 11:21 am Before I started having theological discussions the only thing I thought of when I heard dispensation was dispense and subsequently thought of Pez dispensers. All that has changed however in the past few years. When I hear that word now, I think of my personal theology because evidentially I am a dispensationalist. Usually the first thing I think of in respects to that theology is the end times. However it is important to know that dispensationalism covers much more than that, something I really need to learn much more about. So over all when I hear the word dispensation I am reminded of how much studying lies before me. Great post Michael. Blessings, Carrie 7. <strong>Chad Winters</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 11:51 am Ohh timely post!!! I was just realizing the other day that as much as my understanding of theological concepts has grown thanks to Reclaiming the Mind, I am still pretty clueless about dispensationalism, covenant theolgy, etc. I had already decided to devote sometime trying to get the basics of these schools downI hope the last class covers a lot of this (although I am likely to be out of the country this fall so I may mis the class Perhaps you can summarize Covenant theology next? that one confuses me too Its funny, I remember studying amil, premil, post mil etc. but not dispensationalism itself 8. <strong>Chad Winters</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 11:55 am The PD camp sounds pretty interesting, could you advise some good reading material for that? 9. <strong>C Michael Patton</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 12:38 pm Carrie, as much as I would like to claim that I wrote this, it is the result of the scholarship of one Ed Komoszewski! 10. <strong>C Michael Patton</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 12:39 pm Chad, too bad you cannot make it to E and E. We will cover both Covenant theology and Dispensationalism quite a bit in sessions 3 and 4. Here is a link to the E and E. 11. <strong>Chad Winters</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 12:42 pm I’ll take the video’s and manual (if they’re not illegal) but I probably won’t be able to meat online 12. <strong>Eriol</strong> on 13 Jun 2007 at 1:07 pm Preacher Jack: At the risk of being an historical prig, Darby (having become disenchanted with the Church of England in which he had been ordained) joined with a group known as the “Christian Brethren” which was centered in Plymouth, England. The “movement,” if it could be considered as such, became known as the “Plymouth Brethren” in the States. 1. rumblebelly on 12 Jun 2007 at 11:06 pm

Great post. I grew up reading the Scofield Bible and Pentecost so glad to see the differences. If you could list your book recommendations at the end of the series it would be great.
Thanks
Juan

2. C Michael Patton on 13 Jun 2007 at 1:21 am

Great post Ed. I share your feelings about the subject and am glad that you wrote on this. I don’t think I have ever heard one anti-dispensationalist represent the view fairly. I hope that this will cause people to rethink the subject and at the very least give dispensationalists are fair shake.
But, sad to say, I don’t think the alternative positions have been traditionally handled well by many dispensationalists.

3. Ed Komoszewski on 13 Jun 2007 at 2:03 am

You’re absolutely correct, Michael: dispensationalists have historically blown hot air at too many straw men—especially when it comes to amillennialism.
I’m just as tired of hearing the “amillennialists spiritualize the text” mantra as I am of hearing that the most sophisticated dispensational hermeneutic is like a Ginsu ripping through a soda can (remember those commercials?).

It’s almost comical to read amillennialists and dispensationalists of past generations accusing one another of mimicking the hermeneutic of liberals. But is our contemporary dialog in certain evangelical quarters really any less embarrassing?

4. Preacher Jack on 13 Jun 2007 at 10:19 am

Ed I agree that when someone wants to trash Dispensationlism they usually start with a description that isn’t well researched, cherry picked or slanted to help prove their position.
However, when current dispensationalists defend their position they have to beware not to fall into one of two traps. The first is to present Scoffield’s mutation of the dispensation theology he learned from J.N. Darby as Darby’s views. I have read a lot of Darby’s letters and his writings and Scoffield did not correctly represent Darby or what he taught on the subject. There are many avenues for us to read what Darby said on the matter (in print and on line). May I also suggest that today’s dispensationalists read a guy buy the name of William Kelly who was a contemporary of J.N. Darby.
The second trap they fall into is to think that those from the non-dispensational camp have it all wrong (don’t feel bad covenant theologians make the same mistake). I have spent time with both those who are adherents to covenant theology and those who are adherents to dispensational theology and it is my impression that there is allot on both sides they are right on but they cloak it in terminology and are willing to fight to the death over verbiage then listen to each other.
You cannot read the bible and deny God makes covenants with man. You also can not read the bible and realize that there were eras, epoch or time periods (dispensations) and under both God revealed more and more of Himself to us.
Oh and If I can offer a little disagreement on something about Darby and him being the father of dispensational theology (before I finish). Darby was part of a movement called “Plymouth Brethren” which started before he joined the movement after leaving the Anglican Church. He is labeled with this title because he was a prolific writer and these writings have survived and unfortunately the others have not. The group had held to dispensational theology before he joined.

5. Eriol on 13 Jun 2007 at 10:35 am

For all our theological studies, I wonder at times if we are not seven blind men exploring an elephant and arguing about our differing conclusions. Perhaps we are right to an extent but, sadly, all wrong at the same time.

6. Carrie Hunter on 13 Jun 2007 at 11:21 am

Before I started having theological discussions the only thing I thought of when I heard dispensation was dispense and subsequently thought of Pez dispensers. All that has changed however in the past few years.
When I hear that word now, I think of my personal theology because evidentially I am a dispensationalist. Usually the first thing I think of in respects to that theology is the end times. However it is important to know that dispensationalism covers much more than that, something I really need to learn much more about.
So over all when I hear the word dispensation I am reminded of how much studying lies before me.
Great post Michael.
Blessings,
Carrie

7. Chad Winters on 13 Jun 2007 at 11:51 am

Ohh timely post!!!
I was just realizing the other day that as much as my understanding of theological concepts has grown thanks to Reclaiming the Mind, I am still pretty clueless about dispensationalism, covenant theolgy, etc.
I had already decided to devote sometime trying to get the basics of these schools downI hope the last class covers a lot of this (although I am likely to be out of the country this fall so I may mis the class
Perhaps you can summarize Covenant theology next? that one confuses me too
Its funny, I remember studying amil, premil, post mil etc. but not dispensationalism itself

8. Chad Winters on 13 Jun 2007 at 11:55 am

The PD camp sounds pretty interesting, could you advise some good reading material for that?

9. C Michael Patton on 13 Jun 2007 at 12:38 pm

Carrie, as much as I would like to claim that I wrote this, it is the result of the scholarship of one Ed Komoszewski!

10. C Michael Patton on 13 Jun 2007 at 12:39 pm

Chad, too bad you cannot make it to E and E. We will cover both Covenant theology and Dispensationalism quite a bit in sessions 3 and 4. Here is a link to the E and E.

11. Chad Winters on 13 Jun 2007 at 12:42 pm

I’ll take the video’s and manual (if they’re not illegal) but I probably won’t be able to meat online

12. Eriol on 13 Jun 2007 at 1:07 pm

Preacher Jack:
At the risk of being an historical prig, Darby (having become disenchanted with the Church of England in which he had been ordained) joined with a group known as the “Christian Brethren” which was centered in Plymouth, England.
The “movement,” if it could be considered as such, became known as the “Plymouth Brethren” in the States.

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/06/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-829 C Michael Patton Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:56:54 +0000 http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/2007/06/13/what-comes-to-mind-when-you-hear-the-word-%e2%80%9cdispensationalism%e2%80%9d-part-1/#comment-829 Sorry folks. Someone hacked into the site and posted something that lacked in aesthetic beauty, if you know what I mean. I am sorry for all who had to see it. I have your comments saved, but cannot log on as you and post them again. I have posted them all below in one post. Sorry for the trouble. Dispensationalism always stirs up trouble! Sorry folks. Someone hacked into the site and posted something that lacked in aesthetic beauty, if you know what I mean. I am sorry for all who had to see it. I have your comments saved, but cannot log on as you and post them again. I have posted them all below in one post. Sorry for the trouble. Dispensationalism always stirs up trouble!

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