I think the OP is confusing two separate things. Tolerating a bit of foul language from someone who does not walk with the Lord is a different then than a senoir pastor purposely speaking in a way that does not impart grace to the hearers. This trend of speaking as the world does is not good. Accepting that those in the world did not intend to personally insult you because they use explicatives is correct. However, I have now heard two pastors from separate local churches dirty it up. One used the most vulgar word for dung to describe being full of something when he could have used a dozen other phrases. A fleshly moment or a calculated step, or perhaps a manifestation of a demon? Another pastor while talking about the Geresene Demoniac in the main service of a small church I attended said the young man might have had something wrong with his scrotum. He did this as a supposed mistake in terms of some other word, but I immediately recognized that Jesus did not talk that way even to his buds.

I think the emergence of cursing in the pulpit is a sign that the Lord is giving the church over because we refuse to truly do the work of the gospel. Christianity is about an honest relationship with God in Jesus Christ and others who know Him. It is based on the plain teachings of Scripture and sincere love. Once American christianity became about programs and numbers the end was close in sight. I predict that by the time the Lord returns there will be stanic high priests running many of the largest ‘christian’ churches in the country. But the Lord will deliver his faithful from the snare.

This time I did read all of the comments before posting mine.

Two issues were raised — no, three.

(1) One comment states it is wrong to bring in other issues into this discussion, such as modesty of dress in a discussion of language. However, the root of the “rules” in both areas is the same –
It is much easier to make a rule than to teach a congregation of sinners how to listen to the Holy Spirit and be led by Him; and, “power” is lost when the final decision on whether a behavior is right or wrong is given to someone else to determine.
This is why so many churches that claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, or claim to not be legalistic because we are saved by grace but “good Christians” follow these rules, are the most legalistic places on earth.

(2) Being a “stumbling block.” OY!
As I grew up in a legalistic church, this was presented as not going to movies because someone might see you in line at the new duplex cinema and wrongly assume you were going to the PG movie (while you were in line for G movie aqll along) and be led to believe it was okay for them to go to that movie and thereby sin. That someone might be either another believer who wasn’t as well founded in faith as you were or even a non-believer. Hmm … Can I make an unbeliever any less unsaved by stopping him from sinning? (I won’t say anything about how farcical that arument was about a PG movie being a sin in the first place.) Can I make him any more unsaved by letting an unsaved person know I like Disney movies (but not their politics)?
In its full context, the passage about being a stumbling block refers to causing a Believer to once again accept the tyrrany of Law rather than the freedom of Grace.

Well, I thought I had three points — maybe they blended together in those two.

Jesus would call us all Pharisees. They, like the Puritans, started as a movement to cleanse the Temple of all the wrong things happening there (like the selling of the priesthood, etc.). Over the years, they became more and more interested in the outward appearance and the “letter of the Law” than in the heart of worship.

Maya Angelou writes how her grandmother beat her brother for “taking the Lord’s name in vain” when he said “By the way, did you know …?” because Jesus is “the Way.”

I’d rather be a real person, warts and sins and all, than a Pharisee any day. G@sh dern it!

[...] or tell you the difference between the New Testament and the Old Testament. With all the talk about cursing pastors and the evolution of swearing going on in the blogsphere, I thought that I would try to contribute [...]

Does this mean I have to get rid of Crue shirt?
Say it isn’t so!!!

As a youth pastor at a mid-sized church, in the conservative Midwest, the Deacons thought it would be great for us to do a Superbowl Party. Now, I’d done them at other churches but was concerned about doing one here for reasons similar to what you’ve written about. I explained that if we were going to do a Superbowl Party, it had to be outreach-oriented. They agreed and said this was exactly why they wanted to do one. They wanted me to contact the cable company and arrange for cable in the church for the big weekend. I then told them I wanted to do it away from the church because of the Sunday evening worship service (that was still going to be going on upstairs in the sanctuary) and I knew some people would have a problem with some of the kids we’d attract. I explained my concerns and gave them some examples of things they might see (maybe even some vulgar language and t-shirts). They insisted that we do it at the church and they assured me they wouldn’t mind.

We went all out with a paper football tournament… the whole nine yards. Just before halftime, I noticed a group of kids that I had really connected well with were leaving. I asked a few of our kids what had happened and they told me that one of the Deacons (who was at that meeting and had assured me there would be no problems with what I described as possible scenarios) had gotten all over a kid for wearing a Motley Crue t-shirt.

And, that as they say, was all she wrote. We never recovered from that incident while I or the former leadership team was in place. I can thankfully say that I’ve followed the church a little through their website and they are now approaching mega-church numbers but only after they’ve changed church buildings and leadership.

I wish we didn’t work so hard to shoot ourselves in the foot all the time!!!

What would have been said of John Bunyan? He had a sailors mouth (from what I’ve heard, I did not know him personally). I feel that if you are p*ssed off and want to relieve tension by inserting an expletive, go ahead and fly off the handle. You may sound uneducated to others but you can make it up in time;-)

It’s interesting, when reading through the comments on a blog post, how one specific topic can subtly begin to generalize.

Obviously, I think, Michael wrote a great post with great thoughts about the issue of swearing and how it relates to the issue of a Christian subculture. But I think we, as self-examining Christians, ought to remember to deal with each “issue” individually, considering the particulars and not generalizing one gripe with another.

I noticed a comment about clothing and modesty, which, to me, is a separate issue. There’s a separate list of arguments for and against modesty in clothing, and the degrees of modesty, and how it relates to Biblical instruction or sin issues. The same with music, Sunday morning attire, tithe, and the whole lot. Whether each of these are included in the do’s and don’ts of a/the Christian subculture is irrelevant to their legitimacy as a real issues. Basically, I just mean to suggest the idea that a Christian subculture is a by-product of the religious’izing (yes, I made that word up) of particular issues, not a concerted effort to create a subculture and in doing so adopting some “by-laws” like “no cussing.”

I think the reason this kind of post, and this kind of dialogue, is so valuable is that we really think about the issues. We really examine them, hopefully through the lens of Scripture and good sense.

-T

I think the christian sub-culture should quit choking on camels and move on to better things. I feel sorry for unbelievers who see this kinda crap. Which I know they do. Why should the christian sub-culture get to pick which words hold stronger potency. If I say “darn”, no one flinches, but if I say sh*t people have a heart attack.

Whats wrong with this picture?

kolabok,

I’ve got news for you. I’ve known michael for a couple of years now, and if you are expecting him to give you any kind of final answer, forget it. He squirms like a…oh wait, that probably would cross the line.

In fact, his response to your question would probably be something like “You’ve put your finger on a real problem…blah blah.” Well, that’s what I’d say anyway, and i’m squirmy, too.

But you are right in saying that their is a fine line between becoming conformed to the world and creating a subculture, and that line is necessarily different depending on the culture in which we find ourselves.

Some times your posts trouble me Michael. I have kind of posted on the two posts of yours, the sub-culture, Christian music and this, I can’t figure out the truth in all of this.
We are to separate ourselves from the world not to be conformed to it, we are not to cause our weaker brother to stumble, yet we often indulge it, (no offense here, I have attempted the same) to do what, be more acceptable in language and action.
But on the other hand I can relate to what you are saying about all the sub-culture phenomena, it is springing up every where, is just in America only?
There is a fine line here and I wait for you to draw it in the sand!!!
What you suggest can have an impact on a Christian’s walk. And I believe you point out correctly or maybe some one else (I only skimmed thru, been on vacation) that the focus point is in Jesus himself, the 4 H’s & W. Here in lies the answers to this stigma of the 21st century. Dr. Robert H. Stein has a book among others, “The Method & Message of Jesus Teachings” which I thought to be very helpful in my understanding of what you have proposed; I just can not swap out 1st AD with 21st AD. Some where down the line mankind has become higher than his own self, almost short of acknowledging a god like quality that anything goes attitude.
I don’t know the worms are out of the can on this, but I am curious what the final say is from you,

Thanks,

P.S. My mother has a pillow that reads, “Better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt” I often think about that when my tongue gets ready to get me in trouble!!!