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	<title>Comments on: Can a Christian Support Abortion? The Theology of Abortion</title>
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		<title>By: James Snapp Jr</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/05/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/comment-page-1/#comment-548</link>
		<dc:creator>James Snapp Jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 May 2007 04:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Greetings C. Michael Patton,

Acknowledgement that some abortions might not be murder -- i.e., that they
might not involve the separation of an innocent human soul from a human
body -- is not the same as lending support to all or any abortions.  If one
considers that children are  a gift from the Lord, then, barring rare
circumstances, a woman's awareness that she is pregnant may be
considered a signal of God's intent to give her a gift.  Shouldn't it be
incumbent upon Christian parents to co-operate with what appears to be
a divine intention, regardless of whatever ignorance we may have about
exactly how and when this gift will be given?  Istm that the right Christian
approach to pregnancy (barring those rare circumstances) is one of
co-operation.

On the question of ensoulment and some related issues, I welcome you
to consider three essays I wrote some time ago, which can be found
near the bottom of the homepage of the Curtisville Christian Church website
-- www.curtisvillechristian.org --
or you can go directly to the first essay at
www.curtisvillechristian.org/Biogenesis.html .

Yours in Christ,

James Snapp, Jr.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greetings C. Michael Patton,</p>
<p>Acknowledgement that some abortions might not be murder &#8212; i.e., that they<br />
might not involve the separation of an innocent human soul from a human<br />
body &#8212; is not the same as lending support to all or any abortions.  If one<br />
considers that children are  a gift from the Lord, then, barring rare<br />
circumstances, a woman&#8217;s awareness that she is pregnant may be<br />
considered a signal of God&#8217;s intent to give her a gift.  Shouldn&#8217;t it be<br />
incumbent upon Christian parents to co-operate with what appears to be<br />
a divine intention, regardless of whatever ignorance we may have about<br />
exactly how and when this gift will be given?  Istm that the right Christian<br />
approach to pregnancy (barring those rare circumstances) is one of<br />
co-operation.</p>
<p>On the question of ensoulment and some related issues, I welcome you<br />
to consider three essays I wrote some time ago, which can be found<br />
near the bottom of the homepage of the Curtisville Christian Church website<br />
&#8211; <a href="http://www.curtisvillechristian.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.curtisvillechristian.org</a> &#8211;<br />
or you can go directly to the first essay at<br />
<a href="http://www.curtisvillechristian.org/Biogenesis.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.curtisvillechristian.org/Biogenesis.html</a> .</p>
<p>Yours in Christ,</p>
<p>James Snapp, Jr.</p>
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		<title>By: richards</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/05/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/comment-page-1/#comment-553</link>
		<dc:creator>richards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 13:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.86.177.226/~ttpstude/blog/2007/05/24/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/#comment-553</guid>
		<description>This whole idea of the body being part of the "good" creation of God was one of the more important ideas I took from Humanity and Sin.  I had naively held a Gnostic view of the body.  In fact, I was so adamant in my reckless view of the body, that I had said on several occasions to not spend a lot of money on my funeral -- just put me in a hefty bag and throw me in a dump, 'cause that's not me.  Sounds really horrible now, but my thinking was, "The soul is what counts, the body is going to decay, and God can recreate me from whatever he wants at the resurrection."  But as H&#038;S and this post points out, our "selves" are not composed of just a spirit with a body chained to it.  God created us as material and immaterial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole idea of the body being part of the &#8220;good&#8221; creation of God was one of the more important ideas I took from Humanity and Sin.  I had naively held a Gnostic view of the body.  In fact, I was so adamant in my reckless view of the body, that I had said on several occasions to not spend a lot of money on my funeral &#8212; just put me in a hefty bag and throw me in a dump, &#8217;cause that&#8217;s not me.  Sounds really horrible now, but my thinking was, &#8220;The soul is what counts, the body is going to decay, and God can recreate me from whatever he wants at the resurrection.&#8221;  But as H&#038;S and this post points out, our &#8220;selves&#8221; are not composed of just a spirit with a body chained to it.  God created us as material and immaterial.</p>
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		<title>By: C Michael Patton</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/05/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/comment-page-1/#comment-552</link>
		<dc:creator>C Michael Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 18:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.86.177.226/~ttpstude/blog/2007/05/24/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/#comment-552</guid>
		<description>Richard, I agree with the difficulties of the issues.

The traducianist would say that it is impossible for their to be a case where the soul is not present in and with the body since it is vitally connected to it. It would be like saying what if there was a body without cells? Mysteriously, although you cannot test it or see it in a microscope, the immaterial aspect, according to the traducianist, is a part of the body from the beginning and the body cannot be without it. A good definition of death is the separation of the immaterial from the material. This separation is mysterious and unnatural and make the resurrection necessary so the we, in the resurrection, can be complete once again.

While the body is born with the effects of the fall, so is the soul. These effects do vary and the immaterial will always most certainly be deformed by sin. When God redeems the world, the complete person, body and soul, material and immaterial, will be restored.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, I agree with the difficulties of the issues.</p>
<p>The traducianist would say that it is impossible for their to be a case where the soul is not present in and with the body since it is vitally connected to it. It would be like saying what if there was a body without cells? Mysteriously, although you cannot test it or see it in a microscope, the immaterial aspect, according to the traducianist, is a part of the body from the beginning and the body cannot be without it. A good definition of death is the separation of the immaterial from the material. This separation is mysterious and unnatural and make the resurrection necessary so the we, in the resurrection, can be complete once again.</p>
<p>While the body is born with the effects of the fall, so is the soul. These effects do vary and the immaterial will always most certainly be deformed by sin. When God redeems the world, the complete person, body and soul, material and immaterial, will be restored.</p>
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		<title>By: richards</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/05/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/comment-page-1/#comment-551</link>
		<dc:creator>richards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 18:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.86.177.226/~ttpstude/blog/2007/05/24/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/#comment-551</guid>
		<description>Theologically, they both have some problems.  One of the things with a traducian perspective (to which I lean), is that just as parents can produce a less than ideal human (i.e., birth defects), traducians also affirm that the soul is born defective (total depravity, etc.).  But if a child can be born without arms or legs or certain organs, could a child be born without a soul?  Or would that situation be more analogous to being born without a brain (anencephaly) or without a head (acephaly), where survival is 0%?  After all, when the soul is not joined to a body, the body is dead.  Could some souls be "more defective" than others?

With a creationist view, could God choose not to give a soul to someone?  Or is it guaranteed that every single child born will be provided with a soul, which is promptly corrupted?

Oddly enough, though, from a purely secular point of view, abortion is untenable.  Greg Koukl at www.str.org has an incredible argument against abortion in which he never appeals to the Bible.  There's just one question to ask:  "What is it?"  If it's just tissue, then who cares about privacy or choice or anything else -- just cut it out like a mole.  If it's a human, then no issue of privacy or choice will even matter.  He then goes on to show that no matter how we define human, that definition either applies equally to a fetus or is arbitrary.

As with Michael, I have no answers, only more questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theologically, they both have some problems.  One of the things with a traducian perspective (to which I lean), is that just as parents can produce a less than ideal human (i.e., birth defects), traducians also affirm that the soul is born defective (total depravity, etc.).  But if a child can be born without arms or legs or certain organs, could a child be born without a soul?  Or would that situation be more analogous to being born without a brain (anencephaly) or without a head (acephaly), where survival is 0%?  After all, when the soul is not joined to a body, the body is dead.  Could some souls be &#8220;more defective&#8221; than others?</p>
<p>With a creationist view, could God choose not to give a soul to someone?  Or is it guaranteed that every single child born will be provided with a soul, which is promptly corrupted?</p>
<p>Oddly enough, though, from a purely secular point of view, abortion is untenable.  Greg Koukl at <a href="http://www.str.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.str.org</a> has an incredible argument against abortion in which he never appeals to the Bible.  There&#8217;s just one question to ask:  &#8220;What is it?&#8221;  If it&#8217;s just tissue, then who cares about privacy or choice or anything else &#8212; just cut it out like a mole.  If it&#8217;s a human, then no issue of privacy or choice will even matter.  He then goes on to show that no matter how we define human, that definition either applies equally to a fetus or is arbitrary.</p>
<p>As with Michael, I have no answers, only more questions.</p>
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		<title>By: C Michael Patton</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/05/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/comment-page-1/#comment-550</link>
		<dc:creator>C Michael Patton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 16:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.86.177.226/~ttpstude/blog/2007/05/24/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/#comment-550</guid>
		<description>Joanie,

You are right about the different translations of Gen 2:7. Most would say that we should translate this as "living being" rather than soul. It uses the same phrase for the animals. The idea is that when God breathed into them, He breathed life, not a soul. This would better support Traducianism.

I am in full agreement with you that any choice that one has to make in such a situation would be beyond my comprehension.

Thanks for the comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joanie,</p>
<p>You are right about the different translations of Gen 2:7. Most would say that we should translate this as &#8220;living being&#8221; rather than soul. It uses the same phrase for the animals. The idea is that when God breathed into them, He breathed life, not a soul. This would better support Traducianism.</p>
<p>I am in full agreement with you that any choice that one has to make in such a situation would be beyond my comprehension.</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment.</p>
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		<title>By: JoanieD</title>
		<link>http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/05/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/comment-page-1/#comment-549</link>
		<dc:creator>JoanieD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 10:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://70.86.177.226/~ttpstude/blog/2007/05/24/can-a-christian-support-abortion-the-theology-of-abortion/#comment-549</guid>
		<description>This is very enlightening, Michael. I know that in Genesis there are various translations of Genesis 2:7. After God "...breathed into his nostrils the breath of life..." some translations say "...and man became a living being" and some say "... and man became a living soul. "  If the best translation is "soul" than man does not HAVE a soul, man IS a soul. For those of you who are studied theologians, which do you think is the best translation? And what is it that we mean when we say "soul?" I think it is very important to know that, because that can help us determine what we think about abortions.

It sounds like you are equating soul and spirit as one and the same, Michael. I know other people would say that humans are made up of physical, soul, and spirit where spirit is the life-giving "substance" and soul is more like the personality/mind of a person.

I have not sorted this all out for myself. Abortions seem to me to be not what God or nature or anything else would want. Yet, what would you tell a married couple when the doctor advises them that if the baby is not aborted, both the baby and the mother will die? If you believe any abortions are murder, then I guess you have to say, "Oh well. God gives life and he takes life and that's the way the cookie crumbles" so to speak. It may be that the mother feels so closely connected to her baby that despite the fact that she has been told she will die, she just cannot choose to end her baby's life anyway. Perhaps she will say that God can produce miracles and she will hope for a miracle. I pray that none of us and no one we love will ever have to face such a decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very enlightening, Michael. I know that in Genesis there are various translations of Genesis 2:7. After God &#8220;&#8230;breathed into his nostrils the breath of life&#8230;&#8221; some translations say &#8220;&#8230;and man became a living being&#8221; and some say &#8220;&#8230; and man became a living soul. &#8221;  If the best translation is &#8220;soul&#8221; than man does not HAVE a soul, man IS a soul. For those of you who are studied theologians, which do you think is the best translation? And what is it that we mean when we say &#8220;soul?&#8221; I think it is very important to know that, because that can help us determine what we think about abortions.</p>
<p>It sounds like you are equating soul and spirit as one and the same, Michael. I know other people would say that humans are made up of physical, soul, and spirit where spirit is the life-giving &#8220;substance&#8221; and soul is more like the personality/mind of a person.</p>
<p>I have not sorted this all out for myself. Abortions seem to me to be not what God or nature or anything else would want. Yet, what would you tell a married couple when the doctor advises them that if the baby is not aborted, both the baby and the mother will die? If you believe any abortions are murder, then I guess you have to say, &#8220;Oh well. God gives life and he takes life and that&#8217;s the way the cookie crumbles&#8221; so to speak. It may be that the mother feels so closely connected to her baby that despite the fact that she has been told she will die, she just cannot choose to end her baby&#8217;s life anyway. Perhaps she will say that God can produce miracles and she will hope for a miracle. I pray that none of us and no one we love will ever have to face such a decision.</p>
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