The Rise of the Christian Sub-culture and the Crying of the Rocks
Since my post on Christian music got me in such hot water, I thought I would clarify some of the issues that need to be thought about (or maybe just dig my hole deeper-what have I got to lose? :))
In the last post, I said that “Christian music is wrong.” I had hoped that the rest of the post would clarify what I meant showing that this initial overstatement was didactic in tone.
The issue that I have is not so much with Christian music. I believe that there should be praise and worship songs and I also concede that some of them are very sincere. The main issue is the creation of the 20th and 21st century’s “waiting on a mountain top” Christian sub-culture.Â
Let me make something really clear. My main presupposition behind this is that culture in-and-of itself is amoral (neither good nor bad). Along with this is the further assumption that culture can and has evidenced the characteristics of God. This comes from the truth that all people, fallen and redeemed, retain God’s image. Whether they realize it or not, all people, redeemed and unredeemed, can and sometimes do give God glory, even if it is against their will. Often times, the glory that the secular culture presents before the Lord is better than that of the Church. Remember when Christ was entering Jerusalem just before the crucifixion and his followers were saying “Blessed is He who comes in the name of God”? The account is worth posting:
Luke 19:37-40 37 As soon as He was approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen, 38 shouting: “BLESSED IS THE KING WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” 39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” 40 But Jesus answered, “I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!”
Christ said, if His people do not glorify Him, the rocks will. Christ did not literally mean that the rocks will miraculously receive cognition and the gift of verbal articulation. He was speaking in hyperbole. He meant that if His people don’t glorify Him, then the rocks will. In other words, God will receive His glory. If it does not come from the most likely source (His people) then it will come from the most unlikely source (the rocks). If this does not humble us, I don’t know what will.
I believe that the “sub-culture Christian network” is causing the rocks to have melody. Why? Because when we demonize all of God’s creation in a gnostic like I-don’t-care-about-this-world-since-it-is-going-to-hell-in-a-hand-basket type mentality, we concede God’s creation to other’s who do not recognize Him for the greatness of all of creation, culture included. We then create sub-culture clicks that are meant merely to pass the time until we get to glory.
What we often fail to realize is that by creating this Christian sub-culture we are failing to do what Christ commanded us to do as a Church and as a kingdom of priests - represent the people to God. How can we represent what we don’t know? How can we be missional when we are totally unengaged? The Christian sub-culture keeps us from fulfilling the great commandment.
Here is a list of things we have in the Christian subculture:
1. Christian music
2. Christian radio stations
3. Christian newspapers
4. Christian universities
5. Christian book stores
6. Christian language
7. Christian YouTube (GodTube.com)
8. Christian movies
9. Christian TV stations
10. Christian candy (Yes, look at Mardel)
11. Christian dress
12. Christian comedy
I am sure there is more (you can list them if you think of them). The key thing to understand about all of these is that they are unnecessary. These are all part of the culture that is amoral. There is nothing in-and-of itself evil about any of the cultural categories that they assume. There is no reason for Christian to disengage in these market places in order to create a new distinctly Christian venue. Disengagement here means that we have limited ourselves to the street corners and church building for the display of God’s glory.
I lament more than all things the loss of the university. In the 1920s when liberalism became too strong in the light of our apparent educational dysfunctionality during the Scopes Monkey Trial, Christians left the university to start their own. This created an unnecessary dichotomy between “Christian education” and “secular education.” Granted, seminaries are created to focus on specific training just as medical schools do, but we are talking about mainline universities here who’s intent is to give a broad education in the various disciplines. Christian need not concede the education over to the world. I realize that secular education can be bad, but if we have learned anything over the last 100 years it is that Christian education can be just as bad. (There is, however, an encouraging light that is beginning to shine in this area. Evangelical Philosophers such as Alvin Plantinga and Evangelical historians such as Mark Noll have broken ground and begun to reestablish Christian dignity in the university setting.)
The point is that each one of these sub-cultures listed above isolates us and the Gospel from those people who engage in culture. Culture is part of the common human experience. It is no wonder we don’t know how to communicate to those outside the faith. It is no wonder the average Christian loses all unbelieving friends after three years. (and that is not because they become believers.) ![]()
Christ never created a sub-culture. In fact, He was in the bars telling stories and giving hope. He was going to weddings filling wine glasses. He did not isolate Himself on a mountain top of misguided Christian petitions and pietism, but recognized the mission that He was on required a true engagement with real people. In fact, the only “Christian” sub-culture of his day was created by the Pharisees. They had their own way of doing everything and watched intently for someone to fail by engaging in culture. Far from joining in with the Pharisees sub-culture, He condemned it.
Paul was the same way. He did not see culture as evil and did not seek to create a Christian sub-culture. In fact, he teaches us that the preeminence of the Gospel message demands that we meet people where they are.
1 Corinthians 9:20-23 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
I am not saying that there is not a place for Christian t-shirts or the Christian message in the movies. I am strictly speaking of restricting our message to the choir. I am also talking about enjoying life outside of the churchy environments that we have created. Let us do all things well, enjoying all of God’s creation, including culture.
In short, let us bring Christ to where He is needed most and not get angry when people enjoy the melody of rocks, realizing that they might be the only ones carrying a tune!
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- None Found
jshaffer on 29 May 2007 at 6:39 pm #
Wow. Thanks for writing this. I can definitely relate. When I became a Christian, I became very aware of the Christian subculture and tried my best to “fit in” with it, but it felt inauthentic. Then of course, I felt bad for feeling that way, and I thought something was wrong with me. Or worse, wrong with my faith. Unfortunately, the messages I got from other Christians tended to reinforce this. I met a few believers who thought outside the box more than others, but eventually, I felt alienated enough that I stopped going to church altogether. I say that I stopped going to church, not that I abandoned my faith, because there is a difference. But I struggle more now that I’m going it alone, so to speak. And that’s why I think the Christian subculture mentality does more harm than good.
C Michael Patton on 29 May 2007 at 8:26 pm #
jshaffer, thanks for your honesty. I am sorry for your experience. I pray that we can comfort people with this message. I know that there are a lot of people out there like this.
mjfreshoil on 29 May 2007 at 9:14 pm #
Hey Micheal,
Great comments as always. I think as a whole we believers have done a very poor job of engaging the culture. You are correct, culture is amoral. It is neither good nor bad. It seems as though for some reason we have created the notion that unless it has the word Christ, or God in it, it is somehow evil. It is not. I am very disturbed to see this in many areas of Christian ministry.
My mother was blessed to spend a few months in Africa earlier this year working for a wonderful Christian organization called Rafiki. At the Rafiki villiage in Ghana the orphan children were not allowed to sing songs in the style that reflected there culture. Instead they were told to only sing and play music that was Eurocentric in nature. Isnt it unfortunate that the christian subculture will miss out on the experiences it would have by engaging that element of culture rather than thinking somehow if its not Eurocentric, its immoral.
I remember reading a book called “Things Fall Apart” in college where a group of well meaning missionaries tried to convert a tribe of bush people to the Christian faith, and in the process decided that trying to “civilize” them was in order. They could no longer wear the evil loin cloths and grass skirts. They had to dress in the purity of t-shirts and shorts. In the end some were converted, but many others were offended. Think of how much they and we lost by not embrasing elements of that culture. Who knows, embrassing that culture might have helped improve the music of the Christian sub culture. Sorry, I just couldnt help it.
C Michael Patton on 30 May 2007 at 2:06 am #
mjfreshoil,
I have experienced the same thing on mission trips and you will hear your same story in missiology. We attempt to assume people into our sub-culture all over the world. The tragic thing is when it works. People are doing things or avoiding doing things, not based upon principle, but because it is what the American missionaries said was “Christian.”
Thanks for your comments.
bpratico on 30 May 2007 at 7:38 am #
Great hand grenade that you’ve tossed out here, Michael! Rock on.
Bob
Samson on 30 May 2007 at 7:14 pm #
well, at least it’s better than your last post on “The Rise
of the Christian Sub-culture and the Crying of the Rocksâ€
C Michael Patton on 30 May 2007 at 7:32 pm #
Sam, I don’t get it!
bzentis on 30 May 2007 at 9:02 pm #
Michael,
I’m glad you have everyone abuzz with this topic. I often wonder, “How many people have been made to feel alienated from the gospel because they didn’t feel that they fit into the ‘Christian’ culsture?” Many times I myself have felt less of a Christian because my CD collection doesn’t contain all of the latest Christian groups like so many of the “real Christians” I know. You brought to our attention the “Christian no more” videos a while back, and while I found some things in them disturbing, the one thing I did agree with is the simplicity of following Christ no matter what you wear, or read, or listen to. Being a witness means being relevent. I have a lot of respect for the Amish that live in our area, but they really are not that relevent in spreading the gospel to the average person. Christ told his disciples to go out into the world, not that they are of it but that they are in it. Too many Christians don’t want to be in it. It’s easier that way…less messy. What a cop out.
Brian
C Michael Patton on 30 May 2007 at 9:26 pm #
Thanks Brian.
tnahas on 31 May 2007 at 9:21 am #
Michael,
More Christian subculture:
1. RMM;
2. TTP;
3. TUP;
4. CWS;
5. Pastors.
Oops. Did I cross the line? Sorry me bad.
(WARNING: The above represents main stream cultural humor, not intended
for Christians or those who like RMM and their ministries. More small print to follow)
C Michael Patton on 31 May 2007 at 11:17 am #
Not at all Taffy. This is a good point, but not correct. In fact, you are speaking of the sub-culture of theology. But you must remember that RMM exists to keep people from confirming their prejudice by surrounding themselves with only those that agree with them.
Theology should not be done in isolation of the bigger community. It is a discipline by itself. I have often encouraged people to study those with whom there is disagreement. We are balanced in our presentations, giving everyone a fair platform.
Therefore, we don’t have a sub-genera within theology as you are assuming, but we fight against it.
Threepwood on 31 May 2007 at 10:16 pm #
Grace and Peace to You,
I agree. The very naming of something in culture as “Christian”suggests that it is separate and/or exclusive. I know that at least our country was founded on Christianity despite what liberals say, so our Christian culture should go without saying. However, we have already made our “select” channels, music, etc. and I can say that they don’t rightly represent our faith. Not all, (I do like some “Christian music” but once again, only Christians listen to it.) but quite a few I know to turn away non-believers. Particularly, (I hope I don’t offend,) the television broadcasted “send us your money and recieve blessing” folks who sit in gilded chairs and talk to the screen. Now, their overall motivation may be good, but the delivery certainly doesn’t put in a good name for the rest of us to the secular world.
Paul said in 1 Cor 9:21-22, “To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.”
Let us follow suit. Use what already appeals to the non-Christain world and reveal God’s work in all things so that they might come to enjoy him as well. It’s like sneaking shredded zucchini into a child’s brownies to get them to eat vegitables. Then after they like them, tell them that it is because of the added healthy puree that the food tastes better.
Yes, seminary absolutely should remain as it is, but the Christian colleges and universities are almost an immediate closed door to those not sharing the faith. I wouldn’t go to an “Athiest” or “Buddhist” University. But on the other hand, we don’t want to appear to be “tricking” them into it by not showing our intensions, which, is really an impossibility, but we don’t want to give the secular world any ideas.
We are called to go out and spread the gospel, not isolate ourselves. After all, Christ ate with the “sinners.” How are we going to bring others to Christ if we never walk out the door?
Not by any label or symbol, but by our actions and declaration of truth should others recognize that we are different. Do not stop singing hymns or wearing crosses, but don’t depend on them to display your Christianity.
May we all recieve strength to stay on the narrow path.
Christ’s love,
Threepwood
C Michael Patton on 31 May 2007 at 11:12 pm #
Great comments Treepwood . . . all of them all over the blog. Thanks!
Ed Kratz on 01 Jun 2007 at 10:17 am #
I’m with Taffy on this one, no one who is part of a ’sub culture’ wants to admit it, you can say RMM is not building a sub-culture of it’s own, or that theological scholars/authors are not a sub-culture, but they are.
I also disagree with the way you interpret Corinthians in your post, Paul became like those mentioned to ’save’ them, not to just enjoy himself and try to find God in all things. Paul knew God intimately and was compelled to show those around him who Christ was. Are we not called to be holy after conversion? Does holy not mean set apart? If as one commentor suggests, we are a country founded as Christian, then we would have to say that the Christians are not the sub-culture, rather the secular is the sub-culture.
Let’s stop pretending we listen to secular music or watch our favorite TV shows so we can become more relevant, that’s borderline blasphemy, let’s just admit that we enjoy the world that is run by sinners, we like to dabble in the darkness of our culture under the guise of lies like being relevant, it’s how we justify our actions.
The Israelites were called to be holy, they dwelled in the cultures of those around them and they paid, and are paying to this day.
OK, it’s all yours, let the spin begin!!
C Michael Patton on 01 Jun 2007 at 10:45 am #
Ed, you are totally misunderstanding what redemption is and the effects of the fall. Not all things are inherently evil. Evil is an act of the will. Just because it is part of the world, does not make it evil. You comments represent the Gnostic tendencies of our religious culture, both Christian and non.
Our goal is redemption. Holiness is not piety. It is part of redemption. This includes glorifying God in ALL we do, whether we eat or drink, watch movies or listen to music. This is part of the world that God created. My comments are about redeeming culture by recognizing that we don’t have to separate from it, but we become Christ to it. This is the broader picture of salvation that goes beyond the simple let’s-get-as-many-people-to-ask-Jesus-into-their-heart-and-then-get-out-of-this-joint mentality.
For example art is a part of the aesthetic creation that should bring God glory. Do you think that in order to glorify God through art one has to only draw pictures of Jesus, the Apostles, and the parting of the Red Sea? What if they painted a picture of mountains, took pictures of the India slums, or simply did abstract art? Can this not glorify God since this is what the world does? Must there be a Christian sub-set for everything? Of course not. This is the essence of Gnosticism and this is what I am trying to give people permission to overcome. Not only is it unchristian, it does nothing to advance the Gospel.
I would be careful not to over-define holiness to the point of the Pharisees. Christ broke all the taboos of holiness that they set up. Remember, while we are called to be holy, we are also called to be priests.
Vance on 01 Jun 2007 at 12:28 pm #
I thought I would cut and paste my response to the earlier thread, since I believe it is equally relevant here:
Michael, I agree with your original post 100%. I did not read all the dialogue since, but I have one thing to add (sorry if it has already been covered).
Why is it that if a movie or television star becomes a Christian, they are not expected to do only “Christian†movies or television from that time forward? Why are *they* allowed to be Christians doing “secular†entertainment, but musicians are not? For that matter, why am I allowed to be a Christian attorney, and still have clients that are not Christian? Should I not be limiting my profession to service of other Christians?
There is a crying need in our society for a moral and “cleanâ€, if not overtly Christian, alternative to the negative side WITHIN mainstream media. By relegating all Christian artists to the “Christian†sub-culture, then we are REMOVING them from the mainstream media and effectively handing that mainstream media over to non-Christians by default. Much the way we did to academia.
Can U2 reach a wider audience with their positive message (as well as the KNOWLEDGE that they are Christian, which is a witness in itself) by being part of the mainstream media, or the Christian sub-culture.
Ed Kratz on 01 Jun 2007 at 2:04 pm #
Michael, now it is you who are misunderstanding, my point is that you changed what Paul was talking about to justify enjoying the cultures of those around him, but Paul was clearly showing how far he would go to share the gospel. He didn’t say, ‘to the drunkards I became a drunk, with the thieves, I became a thief…†Additionally, Christ never left the sinners he had dinner with or ‘hung out’ with the same as they were. Granted, we can assume that there were sinners at the wedding banquet, but what about all the other sinners named or referenced, did Christ not call them to repentance? Yes, Christ related to sinners, but He also changed their lives.
I don’t believe all things outside of the Christian music, Christian movies, etc. are inherently evil, only that you shouldn’t take scripture that has a clear message of evangelism and say “see Paul enjoyed the world we can tooâ€
One more thing, if there aren’t things like Christian radio, bookstores, etc, how does a Christian get these things, the secular media surely isn’t going to give them any airtime? It’s funny that you group Christian Bookstores, etc into a negative sub-culture, but if not for them and online Christian booksellers, most Christian books would never go to print, sure you can get them on Amazon now, but if it were not for the Christian stores and Christian sites, magazines etc, you can bet that Amazon and sites like it would not be carrying them either.
There is a full lineup of entertainment for people from whatever culture they are from, why is not ok for Christians to have their own, why must we be subjected to secular music if we don’t want to listen to it? I do on occasion, but why must I always listen to it and not enjoy listening to my favorite stations, and favorite artists, just so I can enjoy God’s creation? That’s a rhetorical question.
We’ll never agree on this and you can claim my views as Gnostic or pharisaical but remember, I am not saying that all the secular sub-cultures are evil (other than of course, that the world is fallen), you are the one saying the Christian sub-culture is wrong.
tnahas on 01 Jun 2007 at 2:57 pm #
Amen, Ed!
Preach it brother. Israel is a supreme example as a God-ordained subculture. They were in the world but not of it. There were to witness to one true God but not to partake of the culture of the Gentiles. Not all of the culture of Gentiles was evil. For example, making babies is not evil but Israel was forbidden to mate with Gentiles.
Many examples abound and by the way when Scripture talks of separation, it is speaking of a subculture as a safe haven for Christians when they do step away from the world. Yes Michael, the Christian in his body steps away from the world, the only refuge is the Christian subculture and amen to that. The secular world would be more than happy to offer the world to the Christian.
Our Lord’s mission on earth was to create a Christian subculture. “Don’t do what they do but what I say†was in every message. Your characterization of our Lord was bordering on blasphemous. He was on the mountain tops singing kum by ya for the lost souls.
As an evangelist, I fish where the fish are in the culture but I go there with a purpose of rescuing them not re-arranging the deck chairs of the Titanic but giving them lifeboats.
There must be a difference in our lives as Christians or we might as well say all roads lead to God just the pick the easier one. I think it is a cop-out when Christians call the subculture pharisaical when we are to dwell on “whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.â€
The culture does not reflect those qualities. I am glad Scripture gives us this guide, otherwise someone would say, “beauty is in the eye of the beholderâ€, some relativistic philosophy.
Our sanctification is just that, to be set apart for God in whatever we do. We are a subculture, get over it. Just as RMM ministers to the Christians, (a very small group at that as compared to Christendom) it is part of this subculture. The early church took Scriptural principles and applied rightly until the next major crisis that has affected the Church to this day when it road the coattails of the Roman empire which created an apostate church and we have been fleeing from it ever since then.
When the Church mirrors the culture it loses its identity and therefore its witness. Augustine knew it when his theology of total depravity was articulated and he went on to say that culture of his day was to be kept at a safe distance.
The presuppositions are different Michael, so we will probably never agree. But when speaking to naysayers like Ed and me don’t use absolutes or put words into our mouths. We are struggling to but see things differently.
Vance on 01 Jun 2007 at 3:26 pm #
While I have no problem with the mere existence of the sub-cultures themselves, there are two problems they raise that I think are significant:
1. They create the impression that a Christian, who also happens to be an artist, SHOULD perform his art under the umbrella of that subculture, and that artists who don’t are somehow LESS Christian.
2. By creating such a “haven”, too many artists who are also Christian will hide away in that haven, thus leaving the mainstream media to those who are NOT Christian. Christian artists, even if not preaching the Gospel directly, can help provide a moral and positive balance to the work of Satan in the mainstream media.
And, as far as the Church mirroring the culture, that is EXACTLY what almost ALL Christian sub-cultures do. The Christian radio is almost exclusively filled with artists trying to mimick, as closely as possible, their mainstream counterparts. Christian comedians do the same, using the same themes, styles, etc, as any non-Christian at the Improv. Christian talk shows on television copy whatever Carson, Letterman or Oprah have set as the standard.
Lastly, as far as evangelism, even the mild spiritual overtones of the music of U2, and the mere knowledge of their Christian faith, has had dramatically more impact on spreading the message of Christianity to the non-Christian than every “Christian Rock” group combined. It opens doors, begins dialogue, etc.
And, here is the elephant in the room: it is just better music than the “Christian-Rock” copy-cats.
Vance on 01 Jun 2007 at 4:19 pm #
I thought of a few more “copy-cat” trends in the Christian sub-cultures that should be condemned by those who assert that we should not seek to mirror the culture:
T-shirts which have purposefully similar slogans and styles to that popular in the secular world.
Fiction books that mimic the romance, fantasy, historical or any other genre that are popular in the secular world.
Church decor or amenities (such as Starbuck look-alike cafes) that mimick the secular world.
Threepwood on 01 Jun 2007 at 5:55 pm #
I don’t think that Michael was changing the scriptures guys. Of course Paul didn’t get drunk for the drunk, etc.
I think that his original emphasis (during the criticism of the sub-culture) was on those who deliberately point out that they ONLY listen to proclaimed “Christian” music (or books, or movies etc.) because only it is pertaining to God. The logical conclusion is that if it is not labeled “Christian” then it is not, and therefore is bad. Thus we would have to go throughout our culture and put a sign on everything that glorifies God to separate it from the secular world.
Something cannot be Christian and non-Christian at the same time. (Law of Non-Contradiction.) If we fail to identify something as Christian, then it is concluded by everyone to not glorify God, yes? But like Michael said, even the trees and sunsets glorify God without the billboard.
Likewise, sign or no, our lives should be separate in every aspect of the secular world without physically removing ourselves from it.
Example: J.R.R. Tolkein was a Catholic. Though he was not as blatent in his writing as C.S. Lewis, he devoted the Lord of the Rings to showing how good overcomes evil. There are many Christian doctrines to be found in that story (i.e. one person taking on the burden of mankind into the fire to destroy it, I highly recommend you read the book.) though it is not an allegory.
WE ARE NOT TO BE OF THIS WORLD. Amen! But we are in it, whether we like it or not, and though we need our own meeting places and “sub-culture” to rest up and get the water in our faces to wake us up, essencially we’re still in the boxing match and have to get up to fight our opponent. I particularly love our Christian sub-culture, to a fault, and often avoid confrontations with non-Christians. That is my folly. Yes I, with the help of God, need to obey the Law and always display that I am his and do not belong to the world with every action and word that departs from my mouth; but on top of that I need to make known how he affects even the secular world.
One of my arguments against atheism is that we can find God in things that are not titled “Christian.” For instance, our ability to use logic, our very being, God’s design that is evident in nature and can prove that our world did not come out of chaos, etc. Even our notions of right from wrong must have been declared by someone, not nothing.
By applying Christianity to all aspects of life, not selecting some and labeling them thus, are we able to spread the gospel from our sub-culture.
God Bless.
C Michael Patton on 01 Jun 2007 at 6:39 pm #
Vance, great word. Love the stuff about U2
C Michael Patton on 01 Jun 2007 at 6:44 pm #
Taffy said: “When the Church mirrors the culture it loses its identity and therefore its witness. Augustine knew it when his theology of total depravity was articulated and he went on to say that culture of his day was to be kept at a safe distance.”
The assumptions behind Taffy’s statement:
“When the Church mirrors the EVIL culture it loses…”
My point: The culture in and of itself is not evil. Of course we don’t mirror the evil practices of the world, n, but not all the the culture does is evil. Therefore, there is no Christian sub-culture.
C Michael Patton on 01 Jun 2007 at 6:46 pm #
Ed, do you really think I am encouraging people to get drunk? I think you need to reread the post.
Of course I assume you are misunderstanding when you write responses like that.
Then again, you just like to play the contrarian and get Taffy fired up!
tnahas on 01 Jun 2007 at 6:50 pm #
A positive message is still only rearranging deck chairs on a sinking ship. They need Christ and those in professions and callings that reach the world, should use the platform they have for that. I was an unbeliever for many years listening to U2 and never saw in them. Some say, how could you not? Because until regeneration occurs its foolishness. Sitting with friends of mine last week and speaking of U2, I told them that U2 band members are Christians which proceeded with boisterous laughter and derision. I tried to explain and they laughed louder.
Hindus and Muslims around the world including many atheists and other followers of cults like Mormons and JWs lead virtuous lives and in fact I would venture to say they live better lives than most Christians. It is not positive living and morals that get to heaven but only once we see that all of our righteousness is like filthy rags do we really see what horrible state we are in until Christ comes in and redeems. We are not to redeem the culture. It is under a sentence of death like our bodies (sinful tendencies).
I agree that not all Christian subculture is good. In fact it can do more harm as the testimonies above speak loud and clear. That is why the Christian is to be discerning when it comes to both the subculture and the world. I don’t have the answers but I know the Lord exhorts us to separate and yet be in the world. It is another dichotomy to struggle with, with no apparent quick fixes. As I have said before the social gospel, which includes reaching out to the culture, is commendable, you have to bring Jesus to them ultimately otherwise there is no difference.
tnahas on 01 Jun 2007 at 6:53 pm #
Michael,
That is my point, different strokes for different folks as Samson said before.
You always forget, Ed and I are always right and you are, well, coming along.
Vance on 02 Jun 2007 at 12:20 am #
I would say that even if Christians did nothing more in the secular world than provide a moral alternative and a positive balance, it would serve a valuable purpose. True, the more that their message presents the Gospel directly the better, but again, if we insist that all Christian artists remain in their subcultures, we have chosen to remove that possible moral alternative within the mainstream media. The result is that the mainstream media just sinks further and further into the darkness. To some evangelicals, this is fine because it serves to enhance their feeling of “moral superiority” and righteous indignation at “the World”.
C Michael Patton on 02 Jun 2007 at 12:44 am #
Amen Vance. I am beginning to like this Vance guy!
tnahas on 02 Jun 2007 at 7:30 am #
Once again the characteristizations abound. Its not moral superiority, its knowing our true falleness as compared to the world which generally believes all people are “goog” unless they’re in jail and even then we must take pity on them too.
C Michael Patton on 02 Jun 2007 at 9:02 am #
He did say “some” evangelicals. You have to admit that that is true.
Vance on 02 Jun 2007 at 2:58 pm #
I guess my perspective is that artists are artists, and it is unfair (aside from all the isolationist arguments) to insist that they remain in the Christian subculture.
We seem to specifically apply this to musicians for some reason. Christian actors are not expected to perform in only religious films (but are expected to only perform in morally uplifting films). Christians who are writers of fiction are not expected to only write religious fiction (but are expected to write only morally uplifting books). A Christian who happens to also be a newscaster is not relegated to TBN only. A Christian who is also a painter is not expected to only create religiously based works (but is expected not to paint pornography).
In fact, we APPLAUD them if they work in the mainstream media, and recognize that they are upholding a moral alternative and maintaining a balance. But musicians seem to be held to a different standard. If they go mainstream, they have “sold out” or are just not as serious about using their God-given gift.
I am not at all arguing that a “morality” message is the same as the Gospel message, or that this will be enough to save anyone. But why do we expect musicians to be always singing the Gospel message, or engaged in a directly evangelistic ministry, when we don’t expect the same of actors, writers or other artists? Why can’t we let them be what they are: performers who are entertaining folks, and at least doing it in a morally uplifting way.
How much guff has U2, Amy Grant, etc, gotten for not remaining in the Christian subculture. When U2 first came out, I remember them being included in Christian music magazines as a Christian rock band (yes, I am that old!). When they went more mainstream, I think they were treated pretty unfairly. If Switchfoot did the same with their next album, they would face criticism as well.
Threepwood on 02 Jun 2007 at 3:21 pm #
Just think about this…
If we don’t go out and try to enter the world, the mainstream world, how are we going to change it?
If we declare that Christian subculture is Christian, then it declares that anything not in Christian sub-culture is not Christian. If it is not Christian, then it does not hold to our standards and can follow whatever standards it pleases. That is the road our country is following.
We say, “this is Christian”. As a result, others can say, “well then this is Muslim.” Another says, “this is atheist.” All are fine then and can live in harmony so long as they don’t judge each other. We as Christians don’t have that luxury.
JoanieD on 02 Jun 2007 at 4:13 pm #
I have been reading the postings about this and about the Christian music with interest. Thanks, Michael, for always providing food for thought!
I did read the three URLs you gave us in the music posting and at http://www.navigators.org/us/ministries/metro/Metro_Tools/items/Book%20Reviews/items/Fearless%20Faith I read, “The author bases much of his argument on Jesus’ high priestly prayer in John 17 in which He prayed not that God would take us out of the world, but that He would protect us from evil. He believes that the “separation verses,” such as 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18, have been taken out of context to justify abandoning the “high road of involvement,
interaction, and mutual respect in favor of the low road of disengagement, isolation, and scorn.” ” Amen to that!
Jesus told his disciples not to fear and to be filled with joy. It’s that joy that the world needs. So many people look for joy in all the wrong places and it is destroying them and their loved ones at times. We may be the only Bible some folks ever read and if they look at us and see fear, suspicion, dislike of them, we can’t blame them for turning away from us. Sometimes I have felt like such a poor example of Jesus, I have not wanted to share the fact that I am a follow of Jesus. I felt it would be a slam against Jesus. We have a great responsibility if we say we are followers of Jesus. I know we can’t expect ourselves to be perfect and I know we need to get up every time we fall, but I surely never want my falling down to be the cause of someone saying, “See, those Christians are no better than the rest of us” and then they “dismiss” Jesus. They are right, though, that we are no better than the non-Christians. But we know who to go to for strength and wisdom and we must share that, no matter how failed we feel at times.
Joanie
Threepwood on 03 Jun 2007 at 9:45 am #
Amen Joanie!!!
I recently struggled between the, “don’t say something until you know it all like the back of your hand,” and, “well, say what little you know and hope that they don’t argue.”
This just urges us to know Scripture better. Boy do I need to do some work.
Thanks