It seems to me that people like “Kristie” often fall prey to several underlying issues. One is that their own faith is not “thick”; their relationship with Christ is not multidimensional in that they do not practice many of the disciplines that develop the deep spirituality that survives even in the face of (seemingly) unanswerable doubts and questions. Another issue is that the intellectual aspect of their faith is anemic and crippled and they give up too easily before finding answers to their problems. It is not the ultimate responsibility of others to answer one’s own doubts (though they have a role and some responsibility). There are answers but the “Kristies” give up long before getting their (sin is easier and much more tempting). And, with reference to her particular question, they believe (wrongly and unbiblically) that those who do not follow Jesus will be tormented for an unending amount of years. Consquently, when their serious questions get dismissive answers they believe they are faced with the awful proposition that God will torment forever kids like that 12 year old Muslim. These issues are of serious import for Arminian Calvinists since Kristie is in danger of not perservering. For TULIP Calvinists, it is not as serious a deal: in terms of salvation either she is elected and will get to heaven anyway, or she is not and was never going there in the first place, and God will hold not anyone accountable for her going to hell, though God will hold elected Christians accountable for whether and how they acted towards her (was it in a loving Christlike way even though God was sending her to hell anyway?).

regards,
John

Amen sir.
It is amazing how many people in our adult Bible study class don’t know that God may not have willed that everyone will go to heaven. They say, “I have always gone to church, and tried to do the right thing, so that’s enough.” Literally, those words came out. Then they are shocked to hear that God’s sovereignty surpasses our own judgement of “fairness” and he deams worthy of heaven whomever he pleases. We often forget that we are all born into sin, and even small children will face judgement- but that’s why Christ came.
This is the toughest stuff to deal with for me, but it is Scriptural. The same loving God who sacrificed his son for us also made the ground open up to swallow defiant Israelites and allowed beloved Peter to be crucified upside down. Everything is for the glory of God. Jn 9:2-3 “‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’
‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, ‘but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.’”
I agree with you that poor Kristi probably didn’t study scripture very much, as even I have come to do only recently, and didn’t accept its divine authority. Unfortunately, it is, “our way or the highway,” and our particular religion does not have the comforting luxury that the Bahai religion (if you can call it that) offers. Through Christ we are saved and the grace of God. That’s it. Period. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.” Eph 2:8-9. (see also Jn 3:16)
I am a Calvinist and am quite disappointed in Kristi’s friends who said that she had “backslidden.” Number one, that is not the Christian reaction that should result from her decision, and only succeeds in alienating her. Second, once you are one of God’s sheep, he will chase you forever. If you turn away, one can only suspect that you were not a serious Christian in the first place. This does not mean that Kristi can’t come to the faith later. Let us hope though, that she will see better representation of Christianity and its true nature.
Finally, I have heard Kristi’s final thoughts before. “I am no longer narrow-minded, judgmental, or unaccepting of people. I have become more kind and loving of others that I interact with simply because I don’t carry the attitude that if they don’t believe the same way I do that they will go to hell or that it is my duty to bombard and offend them with my believes by trying to witness to them. I let people be who they are and accept them for that.�. ” I have to add one of the verses that I stumbled upon while debating the issue of passive versus active witnessing. “Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.” Gal 1:10. We are called to declare the name of God wherever we go, even if others call us “intolerant”, “narrow-minded”, or “unaccepting.” Yes, some of us have this image of a celestial Santa Clause who loves all and forgives all…it’s wrong. That’s the whole reason why Christ died. Atonement must be made for sin in order for God to forgive us. He is sovereign, and a jealous God. He has reasonable measured responses to sin, and can get angry. Remember that Jesus overturned the tables in the temple? Jn 2:13-17. Christ actually made a whip to drive the livestock out of the temple.
We have to study scripture if we are to have an accurate image of God. The cry of the reformation was “Sola Scriptura!” And I cannot help but grieve over the loss of those from the church who departed only because the true image of our Lord and Savior did not fit their pre-concieved notions of how he “should be.”
So the moral…..READ YOUR BIBLE!

God’s mercy and love,
Threepwood

Dude, your ability to put words together once again amazes me. Thanks for the balance and transparency in your reply Brian.

I am struck by a couple of observations as I read through both Kristie’s objections and the responses to the post:

Although the response to Kristie was correct and biblical (and uncompromising) it did little to truly address the underlying issue that Kristie brings up. She obviously interpreted the response to mean “Because God said so”, and as anybody who has ever heard that from a parent, that response is less than satisfactory. In the final analysis, it stops the conversation because the trump card “Mystery of God” is laid down. It’s cheap.

What was not addressed was how Kristie came to her view of God and man and how she could draw the conclusion that God is unfair and unloving. Her example of the 12 year old is a compelling one and plucks at the heart strings. Her assumption of innocence is, I believe, rooted in the egalitarian notion that people are innocent until proven guilty. The very foundation of this country is built on social democratic ideas of justice and equality. And these notions have found their way into the church. In a democratic society presumption of innocence is a noble and necessary idea but does it make sense in a biblical context, in what we know about the nature of God and man? If we believe that man is depraved, than the answer is no. If we believe that God’s law is written on every human heart and he is without excuse, than again the answer is no. Was Kristie exposed to doctrines of depravity and sin? Probably not since her view of God does not allow for a just God punishing those who willfully rebel against Himself. And who’s fault is that? I submit that the church must shoulder the blame.
We are quick to talk about God’s love but slow to talk about His wrath. And I’m not talking about those preachers who relish the idea of the lost being thrown into the lake of fire…blah, blah, blah. I’m talking about preaching about the reconciling love of God framed along side why we are in ABSOLUTE NEED of said love. I’m talking about ME as a degenerate sinner who can do nothing apart from God’s grace because I’ve tried and have failed at every turn. It should make us tremble to know how angry God is at sin. If we do not emphasize how utterly lost we are from birth, then saving grace makes no sense and God’s justice even less. I say all this because Kristie’s experience was my experience. My heart breaks at the thought of the massive numbers of people who sit in their pews, believeing themselves saved, and all the while they draw closer to damnation…all because we do not have the courage to teach the truth of God’s just judgement.
Thanks for the time. All the best.

B.A.Hill

I agree Jude. Thanks for the comments.

quote was 1 corinthians 13:12

Preach it brother ! It’s so sad in this day and age that people feel they can only believe in God if He comes down to our level and can be fitted into a warm fuzzy little box-as the scriptures say -His ways are not our ways and who are we as the creation to think we know better than the creator .
It breaks my heart when people walk away from the faith and I do understand this point of view I have many struggles with things myself ,but i know as a parent I have to say or do things for my kids that they do not understand at the time and I might appear mean or a killjoy etc but I from an adult perspective kow so much more than they do and can seethe bigger picture -so how much more does God who is not only our Heavenly Father but God and creator of the universe.
Perhaps this is why God left us with some of the hard stuff -it’s easy to love when everything is going our way and someone spends all their time and effort trying to accomodate us and make us happy -but is this real love ? Real love and commitment is saying i don’t understand why but I trust Who ,a real understanding of Who God is keeps us on the path and loving God for who He is and not just what He can give us is what pleases Him-Hang in there guys God IS good and is loving but but He is righteous and Holy .
Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now.