Why I am still a Calvinist: The Objector of Romans 9
I don’t really mind labels like some. I just mind people having the wrong idea about what the labels mean and therefore making faulty assumptions based upon misinformation. I am a Calvinist and I don’t shy away from the label. Not only this, but I am a committed Calvinist who is very passionately persuaded by the reformed doctrines of grace.
Roger Olson was on Converse with Scholars and did a tremendous job of explaining Arminianism. I was not blowing smoke during the broadcast when I repeatedly told him how much he has influenced my methodology and approach to theological issues. I can say with all honesty that Roger Olson is a top rate scholar who represents Christ with great integrity of the mind and an irenic tone. But I can say with just as much honesty that I do not agree with his conclusions about the doctrine of salvation and how it is appropriated to one’s life.
Why am I still a Calvinist? Well, this would take much more than a blog to expound upon and I could offer many reasons (as well as explain the difficulties that make things more complicated), but I want to focus only on one, the issue of unconditional election. As well, I am only going to focus on one passage, Romans 9.
While I do agree that the Scriptures teach that God loves all people and desires all to come to repentance (and I don’t qualify the “all” of 1 Tim. 2:4 as some), I also believe that this love does not motivate Him to elect all people to salvation. Unconditional election is the issue. Olson said it himself. There are incompatibilities within the Calvinist and Arminian systems of theology that make it impossible to have a hybrid. There is no middle ground between unconditional election and conditional election that I know of. I believe that God has unconditionally elected certain individuals before the beginning of time for salvation, and passed over others that He loves. I don’t understand why He passes over anyone, I just believe that the Scripture clearly says that He does. Of all the passages that teach unconditional election, there is one that I simply cannot explain outside of a Calvinist worldview–Romans 9. Romans 9 is so clear concerning the issue of unconditional election that in order to deny it I believe that one only has three options: 1) Deny inerrancy and attribute this teaching to the remnants of Paul’s pharisaic theology that he integrated with his new faith but was wrong (ouch!). 2) Deny that Romans should be part of the canon (overkill, don’t ya think?). 3) Adopt a radical new hermeneutical strategy that sees the difficulty of this passage, but denies its clear reading in favor of an interpretation that fits with an already supposed theological system (we all do this sometimes). While I am often tempted to choose the latter, I have not as of this date in my life. I believe that the plain reading of this passage tells us that Paul believed in what is to most a radical doctrine that seems unfair. Here is the passage:
Romans 9:6-24 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
We must understand some contextual background here. In Romans 9, Paul is defending the security of a believer that was put forth in Romans 8. Remember, he ended that chapter by saying that there was nothing that could separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. In the context, the love is the love that foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified the elect. Therefore, according to Paul, there is nothing that can separate the elect from God’s salvation.
That is an incredible statement that Paul knows must be defended. He had been in the position before teaching this same thing to others. I could see it now. In Ephesus, teaching on the security of the believer, Paul makes the same proposition: “Nothing can separate you from God’s electing love in Christ Jesus.” Someone in the audience raises their hand and says, “Paul, this is great and all, but I have a problem.” “What is that,” Paul responds. “Well you say that the elect are secure in God, right?” “That is right” Paul says. “Well, what about Israel? Weren’t they God’s elect? Weren’t they promised security as well? What happened to them? They don’t seem to be following God right now? If their election is the same as my election, my election does not seem to secure.”
It was a good objection and needed to be responded to. Paul does so in Romans 9-11. He begins 9 by saying, “But it is not as though the word of God has failed” (Rom. 9:6). Why? Because he sets up a diatribe (a conversation with an imaginary person) in anticipation of the response that the Romans will have to the claims of security in Romans 8. He wants to show that the word of God has not failed with Israel and it will not fail with Christians. He ends this section by reinforcing the bold security claims of Romans 8, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29). So the entire section is about security. It is in defense of God; it is in defense of His claim that we cannot be separated from His love.
Paul’s explanation for the apparent failure of God electing love with Israel is right to the point. He explains that God’s election of Israel, with regards to ultimate salvation as he has been explaining it, was not of the entire nation without exception. In fact, it was always only a select few, a remnant, that were the true elect of God. He illustrates this historically by referring to Jacob and Esau (Rom. 9:10-13). Even though they were both from Israel, only one was chosen. Therefore not all Israel is elect. He later illustrates this by referring to the elect within Israel at the time of Elijah (Rom. 11:2-4). The argument again is the same. Not all of Israel could be considered among the true elect. Finally, he illustrates this in a contemporary way by saying that he himself is an Israelite and he has placed his faith in God (Rom. 11:1, 5). This is enough to show that God’s security is based upon the true elect, a remnant within Israel. Therefore, God has not broken His word in the past with Israel, and will not do so in the present or future. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Once again, this brings up another objection that Paul has most certainly heard through the years of teaching. Imagine this Ephesian once again hesitantly raising his hand saying, “Okay Paul. Forgive me, but now I have another question. If this is true, that God elects some individuals and not others as was the case with Jacob and Esau, this seems very unfair. Why does God still find fault? Who resists His will?”
Now at this point we must stop and realize the significance of this question with regards to the Calvinism Arminianism debate. Remember, this is the question that we are all baffled by when we first read this. When Paul says, “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires” (Rom. 9:18), we are taken aback. We think to ourselves the same as Paul’s imaginary objector. How can God hold someone accountable for making this choice when it is only God’s election that can cause them to do otherwise? It is a good question. One that I often ask myself. But we must realize this: the question itself helps us to understand that we are following Paul correctly. If you don’t empathize with the objection, then you have misunderstood Paul. But if we do understand how such a question could arise out of Paul’s seemingly radical comments, it means that we are interpreting Paul the same way as the objector. Now, when the objector says, “How can God still find fault, for who resists Him will?” if the Arminian position of conditional election were correct (that God simply looks ahead into the future and has decided to elect all who trust in Christ), there is really no problem. Paul just needs to calm the objector down by explaining how he has misunderstood the argument. If the Arminian position were correct, this is how we would expect the diatribe to proceed:
Objector: ”If this is true, why does God still find fault in people. Who can resist His will.”
Paul: “Oh, you have misunderstood me. You think that I am saying that God’s will is the ultimate cause of our salvation, not ours. Let me clarify. God’s election is not based upon His sovereign unconditional decree, but upon your will to choose Him. Therefore, He finds fault in people who do not choose Him by their own freedom. Doen’t this make perfect sense?”
Objector: “Oh, yes, it does. I feel much better. But you need to teach more clearly in the future. I thought you were saying something radically different.”
But of course this is not the direction the conversation goes. In fact, it gets stronger and more shocking. Paul did not have a definite answer to the objectors question. He confirms that the question assumes the right presupposition (unconditional election) by His response. ”On the contrary, who are you to answer back to God oh man. Will the thing molded say to the molder why have you made me in such a way? . . . ” I could see the objector cowering in the fierceness of the response. He is simply doing the same thing that I would do and have done upon reading this passage. The response let’s us know that while we don’t have the answer we were looking for, the presupposition, unconditional election, is indeed what Paul is teaching. There is no other way to take it in my opinion.
What a fearful thing. What an awesome thing. What a confusing thing. What a terrible thing. In sum, I believe that Romans is inerrant. I believe that Romans should be included in the canon. I cannot approach this passage from any other hermeneutic than an authorial intent. It seems to be the case that the intent of Paul was to say that God unconditionally elects some people to salvation and not others. This is the Calvinist’s doctrine of Predestination. This is why I am still a Calvinist.
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richards on 23 Mar 2007 at 6:41 am #
Election is both comforting and humbling, yet terrifying at the same time. I have read Oden’s book “The Transforming Power of Grace” that Dr. Olsen mentioned. While it is a fantastic book and well worth reading, I just can’t buy the exegesis.
Having read Calvin’s words for myself — and not just the juicy parts on election, but also on God as Creator, God as Redeemer, and Christ as the means by which we receive this unmerited and unsolicited grace — I am able convinced that Calvin has articulated the best possible explanation of soteriology.
Finally, Dr. Olson is brutally honest when he says that after weighing the evidence, we have to pick the one that we can live with, that is, the one that has the least problems. “Both [Calvinism and Arminianism] are biblical,” asserts Dr. Olson, “and both have problems.” And after having picked one, extend grace to others who may have chosen differently.
But of course, we know none us really chose…
sberrios on 23 Mar 2007 at 11:57 am #
Like many christians I’m on the fence on this issue. Romans 9 seems very clear as Michael has shown in this post. On the other hand there are many other passages that support very strongly the arminian positions on which calvinist have to do some pretty elaborate exegetical gymnastics to fit into their view. I must admit, I don’t like the calvinist answer (I think a bunch of calvinists don’t like it either). This does not matter though, I will accept it if conviced to be true.
I have always had a question about calvinists themselves. Michael is one of first, that I’ve encountered that has an irenic spirit. Most of the calvinists I’ve encountered are bright and articulate, to be sure, but come across as if they felt arminians are hopelessly stupid, rebelious or both. Why is that?
lionelwoods7 on 23 Mar 2007 at 1:34 pm #
Mr. Patton hope things are well. I had given my life to Christ in an Apostolic church. Being an African American and raised in the inner city I was never exposed to reformed theology. However after years of losing my salvation and getting it back and the constant wrestle with my salvation in whole. I walked away from the faith. After a very life changing experience I asked the Lord to help me understand him and a guy from college introduce me to John Piper and John McArthur and that was the first time I didn’t have to skip Romans. I had told myslef that I did not want to walk away from the Lord again but after reading Romans 9 and Romans 11 I was worst off than I had ever been before. I prayed and prayed and finally about two years ago I decided (or submitted myself to) accept the doctrine because their was no way around these texts or Ephesians 1 and Romans 8. One thing I will say is that I preach the Gospel like an Arminian but pray like a Calvinist and as I have to answer these questions I do so with a heavy heart (because I still don’t get it, just like I don’t get Hell but still mention everytime I present the Gospel and warn those who reject it of it) and pray that the Lord would open their heart to a very gracious and humbling truth.
Vance on 23 Mar 2007 at 2:11 pm #
I am also on the fence on this one, but lean toward Arminianism. To take a hard line on either side requires taking a dogmatic position where there are valid, and strong, arguments on both sides. There is “clear” Scripture supporting both sides, so either Scripture is contradicting itself, or our understanding is limited. I prefer the latter option, so choose to remain humble about which is correct, if either.
There is a little book called “Why I am not a Calvinist” which is very respectful to the Calvinist position, and covers the issues very well. I would highly recommend it to those interested in this debate.
On a lighter note, I found out how to make any hardline Calvinist jump up and start frothing at the mouth. I just say the words “N.T. Wright”!
BTW, thanks for taking my question on your last Theology Unplugged. I would add that I agree completely with Rhome that we have every reason to believe from Scripture, having the benefit of the whole of Scripture, to think that Jesus meant something unique with “The Son of God”. But the question was what the disciples would have thought when they heard it, without such 20/20 hindsight. Also, I am sorry you did not get to put your 2 cents in on the point of “what Peter would have thought on that day”, since my guess is you might have taken a little different angle than Rhome did.
ErasmusClay on 24 Mar 2007 at 9:49 am #
The resurgence of Calvinism*seems to be following an historical pattern of the ebb and flow of the church
fundyreformed on 24 Mar 2007 at 10:27 pm #
Just want to say I enjoyed this look at Romans 9 greatly. I don’t know if
I’ve really thought how Rom. 8 sets the stage for 9-11. That argument
makes it even more clear that Rom. 9 is dealing with personal election and
salvation. I’ve read/heard some non-Calvinists claim that only coorporate
election is in view in Rom. 9. Given the context of ch. 8, and the treatment
of Pharaoh, I cannot agree.
Thanks again.
God bless you richly in Jesus Christ,
Bob Hayton
fundyreformed on 24 Mar 2007 at 10:38 pm #
Erasmus clay quotes Norman Geisler as follows:
“A further argument for free will is that God
sellison on 25 Mar 2007 at 7:11 pm #
Michael,
Great entry - very open and honest on a difficult subject, IMHO.
Personally, I am with Vance (comment 4), in that while I listen to arguments for both sides, I will humbly accept it’s beyond my understanding right now (and possibly ever).
But, while others have constructed some very thorough and well put together arguments, for and against, I am struggling with some more ‘down to earth’ issues with the Calvinisitic view.
My question is, as a Calvinist, what motivates you to seek after the lost and spread the gospel? Everytime I try to put myself in a Calvinist mindset, I think to myself, ‘So what does it matter if I speak to my neighbor about Jesus Christ?’.
I realize this is probably an elementary question, and I could probably Google an answer or two, but in an effort to _do_ theology together, coupled with the respect I have for Michael and his staff, I feld led to write this post.
Thanks in advance,
Scott
nathanimal on 26 Mar 2007 at 11:57 am #
Is it possible to preach like an Arminian, but to sleep like a Calvinist?
C Michael Patton on 26 Mar 2007 at 2:32 pm #
Scott,
That is a great question. What motivates those who hold to the doctrine of unconditional election to spread the Gospel. St. Thomas Aquinas once said that God not only provides the way, but he also provides the means. I believe that evangelism is the means by which God’s election is appropriated in time.
But I think the primary reason why Calvinists evangelize is that it is commanded by God.
However, I do understand the difficulty and the complacency that this doctrine could bring about in people. But the conditional election view does not help much either as it could produce anxiety and despair with regards to the presentation of the Gospel. What if you don’t present the Gospel? What if you missed an opportunity with your dying father? Could your presentation (or lack thereof) have actually been the catalyst for the redemption of someone? Is God sitting on the edge of His seat hoping that someone will present the Gospel persuasively to your unevangelized neighbor? Or is he bringing it about?
fundyreformed on 28 Mar 2007 at 11:36 am #
On the evangelism question, here is an excerpt from a post I did on the topic.
———–
So for Calvinists, evangelism is about obeying God. And yet it is more. It is about joining God in His mission. It is about spreading God
sellison on 29 Mar 2007 at 9:16 pm #
Thanks for the responses - and my apologies for not responding sooner (busy week). I certainly understand the Calvinist view better, but this is such a complex topic it’s going to take some time to adequately and fairly work through. Coincidently, I’ve had numerous conversations over the last week on this subject with numerous individuals, even an interesting one in Sunday school.
Anyway, since a blog isn’t the best medium for threaded conversations, I’ll move any further discussions into the TTP forums.
I’ll check out the mp3 from tonight once you get it up on the site - unfortunately couldn’t make it tonight. Hope it went well.
Side note: Curious if anybody here (since TTP is out of Dallas) is familiar with Scott Camp? He led our revival this week…
C Michael Patton on 29 Mar 2007 at 10:11 pm #
I have not heard of him. Thanks for the comments.
proverbs17 on 01 Apr 2007 at 5:08 am #
I believe Paul’s main theme in Romans 9 is not to teach the doctrine of unconditional election to the Jewish and Gentile Christians living in Rome, but rather as an answer to the question: Why did a majority of the Jews reject Christ?
The climax and summary of Romans 9 is this: “What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.” (Romans 9:30-32).
This, of course, ties in with the main theme of Romans: righteousness is obtained by faith instead of righteousness by works.
The beginning of Romans 10 carries on where Romans 9 left off, by reiterating Paul’s desire for the salvation of his fellow Israelites, and re-emphasize once more that righteousness is by faith (for everyone who believes), and not by works (the Jews sought to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to God’s righteousness).
“Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:1-4)
Of course, even though I don’t think Paul’s primary motive is to explain unconditional election, whether unconditional election is true is still up for debate.
disciple on 25 Jul 2007 at 11:39 pm #
Why can’t this be more efficiently explained in the middle ground?!
“We can choose to not choose God, but we can’t choose to choose God; God chooses us and we either deny (old self) or submit (new self).”
PLEASE NOTE: Submission being God working in us, not us ‘working,’ per Ephesians 2:9.
In other words, can’t the Holy Spirit regenerate us to receive His grace, but that grace be rejected by our sinful will which is allowed due to God’s perfect love, just as it was in the Garden?!
Alternatively, if we accept, wasn’t it the Holy Spirit that layed the grace upon us, and not our own will?!
-b
Jugulum on 29 Jul 2007 at 8:04 am #
Disciple,
Unfortunately, that doesn’t deal with what Paul says about “hardening” in Romans 9.
Nate on 05 Aug 2007 at 7:42 pm #
Michael,
I think which ever way you go it heavily affects your theology and life. I don’t believe in all five points of Calvinism. I think if you subscribe to Unconditional election it becomes very hard to deny any of the others. I have a couple of questions for you Michael if you have the time. 1.) Are we really suppose to have all the theological answers in life? I’m not so sure. Could this be one where we have to sit back and trust God? I would love to have all the answers in a nice systematic form, but that’s not the way God has reveled it to us. 2.) Does Paul want us to focus on Unconditional election? 3.) Can Unconditional election fully be understood? In conclusion, I think the passage was very clear as you put it, but I don’t think I’m ready to make a commitment to five points of Calvinism. This is by far one of the most mysterious and perplexing doctrines out there. It is however one of my personal favorite debates. I love studying this subject matter and I thank you Michael for the excellent evaluation. It has certainly engaged my mind today.
It was a very convincing blog. I’ve really tried to stay away from picking a side. I originally believed in conditional election and then switched to unconditional and currently I’m following the Doctrine of Suspended Judgment.
C Michael Patton on 10 Aug 2007 at 10:38 pm #
Nate, sorry I am just getting to this. I don’t think that we can fully understand or reconcile the issues surrounding unconditional election and human responsibility. I think the two must be held in tension.
I do think that Paul (and God) want us to understand this, seeing it as an important understanding of our salvation. Paul taught this at every church he established, no matter how long he was there. He certianly saw it as an important part of the Gospel.
In the end, while we may not understand it all, I think we will come to a firm conviction that salvation has nothing to do with our actions and everything to do with God’s mercy. Selah my friend.
disciple on 13 Aug 2007 at 7:24 am #
In the Hebrew, we translate three words to the one English word “harden,” where Pharaoh is shown in English translations to clearly harden his own heart in Exodus 8:15, 8:32, and 9:34. So, Pharaoh has the ability to harden his own heart.
Getting back to the Hebrew, then, some commentators note that Pharaoh made himself ’stubborn’ (of his own volition), though the Lord ’strengthened Pharaoh’s courage’, which both were translated to ‘hardened.’ In this paradigm, the Lord ’strengthens outwardly what Pharaoh already is inwardly.’ So, Pharaoh is the initiator of his own heart’s hardening.
Then we come to God’s omniscience. God knew Pharaoh’s will before Pharaoh knew his own will. I think this is the crux of Paul’s argument and the hardest point of Christianity for me - whether man has the ability to choose or reject God or not, God still knows before creating anyone where that person will end up. Thus, the comment about the potter and clay in Romans 9, which is set up by the question “why would God create something destined for destruction?” not the question “is it God or man that chooses eternal salvation or damnation?” So, God knew Pharaoh’s sinful will in advance and planned accordingly.
Finally, we come to God’s goodness and inability to sin. Logically, we can assert that making someone sin is sinful, which is where adopting a position of determinationalism or fatalism comes close to heretical grounds when pointing to God as the determinationalist. Indeed, in Ex 9:34, the verse states “But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.” The hardening in the verse is directly tied to sin. So, turning from God is considered a sin, and God does not sin (side note: also considered as the sin for which Jesus could not die).
Each of the four points above concerning Pharaoh’s Biblical circumstance in particular still points me to the original point: God is the initiator in the plan of salvation, while man can either submit to God’s good will, or reject based on man’s own volition, given to man by God in love.
With love and peace,
-b
Nate on 13 Aug 2007 at 8:44 pm #
Thanks for the response Michael.
youngreformer on 20 Aug 2007 at 8:31 am #
Michael, can you help a brother out? my pastor is neither calvinist nor arminian but he is in love with Karl Barth. i dont know much about him. is there another alternative to calvinism and arminianism that Barth provided? and….what do you think about this alternative? thank you
Kevin on 04 Sep 2007 at 3:43 pm #
Michael,
Why do you have to call yourelf anything?
Why not state what you believe and leave it at that?
Before you even heard of John Calvin and “Calvinism” did the Holy Spirit drop something into your spirit regarding Predestination?
The scriptures are never to be Interpreted apart from scripture itself because the common sense of men will never ever be equipped to even approach the reasoning of Almighty God!
I am eagerly awaiting your reply.
C Michael Patton on 04 Sep 2007 at 3:46 pm #
I don’t HAVE to, I just like to. It helps describe your beliefs. Just like I call myself a Trinitarian…I don’t have to, but it helps people understand what I believe about God’s triune nature.
Hope that helps.
youngreformer on 05 Sep 2007 at 2:38 pm #
o wow. its ok Mike. u dont have to answer my question.
C Michael Patton on 05 Sep 2007 at 3:51 pm #
I am sorry, I guess I just missed your question. It is funny that you should ask this. I was going to post on this in the near future. In short, while there may be some middle ground with some of the issues, the issue of central importance and the primary issue that divides has to do with election. One either believes that God unconditionally elected individuals to salvation (Calvinism) or one believes that he did not (Arminianism). There are different varieties of Arminianism (elect in the Son, elect nation, elect according to forknowledge), but these are still all forms of conditional election.
Hope this helps.
youngreformer on 06 Sep 2007 at 6:33 pm #
Thank you! it does help. but i still dont know where Barth falls into this. was he more of a calvinist or arminian?
Benji on 07 Sep 2007 at 1:11 am #
Wow I have toiled about this subject for years. Being a Reformed Baptist for 3 years, I have been on the side of the Calvinist fervently. Though I do not deny the accuracy in which much of it falls in, it is not the gospel that brings one to Christ.
Many should attest that they were not saved in a Calvinistic soteriology. Many of us were just saved. It should be noted that this is not the “Good News” that saved us nor that will save others. It is important to note that brothers and sisters in Christ can oppose eachother vigorously in this matter but should never discount another for holding their respected view.
I know everyone knows this. Symptoms of “Hyper-Calvinism” should be noted. Lack of prayer, outreach, Arminians are less of believers and are in some darkness. Please rub shoulders with the homeless, the homosexual.
Michael, will you discuss infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism at any time? On a side note, how would you correctly deal with John 3:16? How can this verse fit within the doctrines of grace? I have never received anything logical or worth holding to. Thanks.
And thanks for the Don Piper blog, wonderful!
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 8:32 am #
Benji, John 3:16 is actually fairly straightforward to fit into the doctrines of grace. It is already presented in a qualified form.
For God so loved the world that he gave
his one and only Son, that whoever believes
in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (Jn 3:16)
OK. The key word in this is “whoever”. God will indeed save any who believe in Him, but then this leaves the question open of *who* will believe in him. We have to be careful with the use of words like “the world” since very frequently scripture does not intend them to mean literally everybody. Consider this text, for example:
Rehoboam went to Shechem, for all the Israelites
had gone there to make him king. (1 Kings 12:1)
Now, when you read this, would you say that every last person in Israel was at Shechem? That the entire population of the nation was there? But you understand the meaning, plainly enough. Therefore you need to be careful about not reading too much into what the author is saying. (Now, the typical Arminian response is to say that the Reformed camp reads too little into what the text says. I think it is a fair charge, and we must be very, very careful when we move away from the most plain meaning of a text.)
So the explanation of John 3:!6 is to say, with Romans 10, that everyone who calls on the Lord and believes on Christ will be saved, but we have to look elsewhere in scripture to see who it is that will actually do that, and why.
I hope this helps.
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 8:42 am #
disciple, the Scripture says both. The references you cite certainly do say that for the first plagues, Pharoah hardened his own heart. I’ll give you a bunch of references, though, that show that God certainly did harden Pharoah as well. I think this is the interplay Michael was talking about with the tension between election and personal responsibility.
——————
The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But >>>I will harden his heart>>I will harden Pharaoh’s heart>>the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart>>the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart>>the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart>>the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart>>I will harden Pharaoh’s heart>>I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians
Benji on 18 Sep 2007 at 12:19 pm #
Thanks for the reply. I understand the verse you referred to in 1Kings 12:1 to simply read “…for all the Israelites had gone there to make him king.”
My friend, it says all. Why don’t we Calvinists not simply succumb to that? Why is it so easy for us to take a simple verse like 1Kings 12:1 and flip it upside down and say “all” does not literally mean “all?” It actually makes me laugh!
I have heard Reformers say that there are 14 usages for the word “world.” I have seen 1Peter 3:9 surgically devasted using the same rules. I feel as though Calvinists are criticizing Arminians for picking and choosing what can be spiritualized while Calvos are doing the very same thing!!
For me, whether John 3:16 means He loves the whole WORLD! COSMOS!!! GREEK!!! It is not hard for my faith and my mind to understand this to mean that God perfectly loves, hates, shows mercy, avenges, pours wrath, juudgment, is patient ALL at the SAME time. He loves His creation, He came to save sinners on crack, prostituting. He “took away the Kingdom from some and gave it to the harlots and tax collectors (since they will produce the fruit of it).”
Being a Calvo is something I hold EXTREMELY loose. It did not save me, nor is it keeping me. We tend to subconsciously limit people’s entrance into the Kingdom based on our Theology and we don’t even see it. The gospel is a universal call because God so loved the world.
Possible imbalance with the D.O.G (Doctrines of Grace)? Possibly we have put grace, or God, in a 5 pointed box? Possible that we can be taught something about these points beyond what our mind can comfortably wrap itself around?
Just a few thoughts! Thanks.
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 2:28 pm #
disciple, sorry about my post above getting a little mangled - I tried to add a little formatting to my verses and it didn’t convert them to HTML the way I thought it would. here are the verses.
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The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. (Ex 4:3)
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, (Ex 7:3)
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses. (Ex 9:12)
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. (Ex 10:20)
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go. (Ex 10:27)
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. (Ex 11:10)
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So the Israelites did this. (Ex 14:4)
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. (Ex 14:17)
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Hopefully that comes through a little more legibly.
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 2:45 pm #
Benji - is there no room for flexibility in those verses? Is there no way that you can read 1 Kings 12:1 without having literally every last person in Israel actually visiting the little town of Shechem?
You asked for an explanation of how John 3:16 works with the doctrines of grace and then utterly dismiss my answer, so I guess I don’t know what you’re looking for.
I agree with your overall premise, though. In kind of a funny play on words, while unconditional election is what saves us, unconditional grace is not what saves us, right? If we take the doctrine as accurate, that is great, but at the end of the day we are saved by the mercy of God displayed through the sacrificial death of the Son of God on the cross. Nobody comes to Christ because they finally understand election.
And I agree that we need to be very gentle in how we deal with Arminians and other Christians on this.
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 3:06 pm #
Benji, just a quick rejoinder about 2 Peter 3:9, just for fun. This is not a surgical devastation (as you put it) but simply illustrating what the text is saying with a different example. 2 Peter is a letter to a specific group of people, in various ways referred to as the elect (see also 1 Peter).
He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9b)
OK. Now let me change this just a little bit.
Hey John, Bill, Susan, Aman, Julie, and Sarah,
Let’s get together at my place and watch the game this Saturday. I’m not willing that anybody be hungry, so I will provide snacks for everybody.
Steve
Now, would you ever look at that note and assume that I am providing snacks for every last person in the world? Obviously not. It is perfectly clear that I am talking about the people I sent my letter to. Is this really such a stretch? I’m not devastating the verse - I’m just putting it into an analogous context to illustrate this more clearly.
All of that said, I certainly see verses all the time that I think fit more naturally into an Arminian understanding. There is undeniably a tension in scripture, and I’m not anxious to put God in any kind of a box. All of this exists as we try to understand what God has chosen to reveal of himself, and the exercise is always doomed to fail at some level. A quick example — try to explain how ANY miracle could have happened. Walking on water. Raising the dead. Bread from heaven. There is mystery in all of this.