Why I am still a Calvinist: The Objector of Romans 9
I don’t really mind labels like some. I just mind people having the wrong idea about what the labels mean and therefore making faulty assumptions based upon misinformation. I am a Calvinist and I don’t shy away from the label. Not only this, but I am a committed Calvinist who is very passionately persuaded by the reformed doctrines of grace.
Roger Olson was on Converse with Scholars and did a tremendous job of explaining Arminianism. I was not blowing smoke during the broadcast when I repeatedly told him how much he has influenced my methodology and approach to theological issues. I can say with all honesty that Roger Olson is a top rate scholar who represents Christ with great integrity of the mind and an irenic tone. But I can say with just as much honesty that I do not agree with his conclusions about the doctrine of salvation and how it is appropriated to one’s life.
Why am I still a Calvinist? Well, this would take much more than a blog to expound upon and I could offer many reasons (as well as explain the difficulties that make things more complicated), but I want to focus only on one, the issue of unconditional election. As well, I am only going to focus on one passage, Romans 9.
While I do agree that the Scriptures teach that God loves all people and desires all to come to repentance (and I don’t qualify the “all” of 1 Tim. 2:4 as some), I also believe that this love does not motivate Him to elect all people to salvation. Unconditional election is the issue. Olson said it himself. There are incompatibilities within the Calvinist and Arminian systems of theology that make it impossible to have a hybrid. There is no middle ground between unconditional election and conditional election that I know of. I believe that God has unconditionally elected certain individuals before the beginning of time for salvation, and passed over others that He loves. I don’t understand why He passes over anyone, I just believe that the Scripture clearly says that He does. Of all the passages that teach unconditional election, there is one that I simply cannot explain outside of a Calvinist worldview–Romans 9. Romans 9 is so clear concerning the issue of unconditional election that in order to deny it I believe that one only has three options: 1) Deny inerrancy and attribute this teaching to the remnants of Paul’s pharisaic theology that he integrated with his new faith but was wrong (ouch!). 2) Deny that Romans should be part of the canon (overkill, don’t ya think?). 3) Adopt a radical new hermeneutical strategy that sees the difficulty of this passage, but denies its clear reading in favor of an interpretation that fits with an already supposed theological system (we all do this sometimes). While I am often tempted to choose the latter, I have not as of this date in my life. I believe that the plain reading of this passage tells us that Paul believed in what is to most a radical doctrine that seems unfair. Here is the passage:
Romans 9:6-24 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
We must understand some contextual background here. In Romans 9, Paul is defending the security of a believer that was put forth in Romans 8. Remember, he ended that chapter by saying that there was nothing that could separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. In the context, the love is the love that foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified the elect. Therefore, according to Paul, there is nothing that can separate the elect from God’s salvation.
That is an incredible statement that Paul knows must be defended. He had been in the position before teaching this same thing to others. I could see it now. In Ephesus, teaching on the security of the believer, Paul makes the same proposition: “Nothing can separate you from God’s electing love in Christ Jesus.” Someone in the audience raises their hand and says, “Paul, this is great and all, but I have a problem.” “What is that,” Paul responds. “Well you say that the elect are secure in God, right?” “That is right” Paul says. “Well, what about Israel? Weren’t they God’s elect? Weren’t they promised security as well? What happened to them? They don’t seem to be following God right now? If their election is the same as my election, my election does not seem to secure.”
It was a good objection and needed to be responded to. Paul does so in Romans 9-11. He begins 9 by saying, “But it is not as though the word of God has failed” (Rom. 9:6). Why? Because he sets up a diatribe (a conversation with an imaginary person) in anticipation of the response that the Romans will have to the claims of security in Romans 8. He wants to show that the word of God has not failed with Israel and it will not fail with Christians. He ends this section by reinforcing the bold security claims of Romans 8, “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29). So the entire section is about security. It is in defense of God; it is in defense of His claim that we cannot be separated from His love.
Paul’s explanation for the apparent failure of God’s electing love with Israel is right to the point. He explains that God’s election of Israel, with regards to ultimate salvation as he has been explaining it, was not of the entire nation without exception. In fact, it was always only a select few, a remnant, that were the true elect of God. He illustrates this historically by referring to Jacob and Esau (Rom. 9:10-13). Even though they were both from Israel, only one was chosen. Therefore not all Israel is elect. He later illustrates this by referring to the elect within Israel at the time of Elijah (Rom. 11:2-4). The argument again is the same. Not all of Israel could be considered among the true elect. Finally, he illustrates this in a contemporary way by saying that he himself is an Israelite and he has placed his faith in God (Rom. 11:1, 5). This is enough to show that God’s security is based upon the true elect, a remnant within Israel. Therefore, God has not broken His word in the past with Israel, and will not do so in the present or future. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Once again, this brings up another objection that Paul has most certainly heard through the years of teaching. Imagine this Ephesian once again hesitantly raising his hand saying, “Okay Paul. Forgive me, but now I have another question. If this is true, that God elects some individuals and not others as was the case with Jacob and Esau, this seems very unfair. Why does God still find fault? Who resists His will?”
Now at this point we must stop and realize the significance of this question with regards to the Calvinism Arminianism debate. Remember, this is the question that we are all baffled by when we first read this. When Paul says, “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires” (Rom. 9:18), we are taken aback. We think to ourselves the same as Paul’s imaginary objector. How can God hold someone accountable for making this choice when it is only God’s election that can cause them to do otherwise? It is a good question. One that I often ask myself. But we must realize this: the question itself helps us to understand that we are following Paul correctly. If you don’t empathize with the objection, then you have misunderstood Paul. But if we do understand how such a question could arise out of Paul’s seemingly radical comments, it means that we are interpreting Paul the same way as the objector. Now, when the objector says, “How can God still find fault, for who resists Him will?” if the Arminian position of conditional election were correct (that God simply looks ahead into the future and has decided to elect all who trust in Christ), there is really no problem. Paul just needs to calm the objector down by explaining how he has misunderstood the argument. If the Arminian position were correct, this is how we would expect the diatribe to proceed:
Objector: ”If this is true, why does God still find fault in people. Who can resist His will.”
Paul: “Oh, you have misunderstood me. You think that I am saying that God’s will is the ultimate cause of our salvation, not ours. Let me clarify. God’s election is not based upon His sovereign unconditional decree, but upon your will to choose Him. Therefore, He finds fault in people who do not choose Him by their own freedom. Doen’t this make perfect sense?”
Objector: “Oh, yes, it does. I feel much better. But you need to teach more clearly in the future. I thought you were saying something radically different.”
But of course this is not the direction the conversation goes. In fact, it gets stronger and more shocking. Paul did not have a definite answer to the objectors question. He confirms that the question assumes the right presupposition (unconditional election) by His response. ”On the contrary, who are you to answer back to God oh man. Will the thing molded say to the molder why have you made me in such a way? . . . ” I could see the objector cowering in the fierceness of the response. He is simply doing the same thing that I would do and have done upon reading this passage. The response let’s us know that while we don’t have the answer we were looking for, the presupposition, unconditional election, is indeed what Paul is teaching. There is no other way to take it in my opinion.
What a fearful thing. What an awesome thing. What a confusing thing. What a terrible thing. In sum, I believe that Romans is inerrant. I believe that Romans should be included in the canon. I cannot approach this passage from any other hermeneutic than an authorial intent. It seems to be the case that the intent of Paul was to say that God unconditionally elects some people to salvation and not others. This is the Calvinist’s doctrine of Predestination. This is why I am still a Calvinist.
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- Why I am still a Calvinist: The Objector of Romans 9
- The Day I Became a Calvinist
- For those of you interested in the issues of Calvinism and Arminianism
- Tension in Calvinism - tension in the Christian faith
- Calvinists often make the worst Calvinists
richards on 23 Mar 2007 at 6:41 am #
Election is both comforting and humbling, yet terrifying at the same time. I have read Oden’s book “The Transforming Power of Grace” that Dr. Olsen mentioned. While it is a fantastic book and well worth reading, I just can’t buy the exegesis.
Having read Calvin’s words for myself — and not just the juicy parts on election, but also on God as Creator, God as Redeemer, and Christ as the means by which we receive this unmerited and unsolicited grace — I am able convinced that Calvin has articulated the best possible explanation of soteriology.
Finally, Dr. Olson is brutally honest when he says that after weighing the evidence, we have to pick the one that we can live with, that is, the one that has the least problems. “Both [Calvinism and Arminianism] are biblical,” asserts Dr. Olson, “and both have problems.” And after having picked one, extend grace to others who may have chosen differently.
But of course, we know none us really chose…
sberrios on 23 Mar 2007 at 11:57 am #
Like many christians I’m on the fence on this issue. Romans 9 seems very clear as Michael has shown in this post. On the other hand there are many other passages that support very strongly the arminian positions on which calvinist have to do some pretty elaborate exegetical gymnastics to fit into their view. I must admit, I don’t like the calvinist answer (I think a bunch of calvinists don’t like it either). This does not matter though, I will accept it if conviced to be true.
I have always had a question about calvinists themselves. Michael is one of first, that I’ve encountered that has an irenic spirit. Most of the calvinists I’ve encountered are bright and articulate, to be sure, but come across as if they felt arminians are hopelessly stupid, rebelious or both. Why is that?
lionelwoods7 on 23 Mar 2007 at 1:34 pm #
Mr. Patton hope things are well. I had given my life to Christ in an Apostolic church. Being an African American and raised in the inner city I was never exposed to reformed theology. However after years of losing my salvation and getting it back and the constant wrestle with my salvation in whole. I walked away from the faith. After a very life changing experience I asked the Lord to help me understand him and a guy from college introduce me to John Piper and John McArthur and that was the first time I didn’t have to skip Romans. I had told myslef that I did not want to walk away from the Lord again but after reading Romans 9 and Romans 11 I was worst off than I had ever been before. I prayed and prayed and finally about two years ago I decided (or submitted myself to) accept the doctrine because their was no way around these texts or Ephesians 1 and Romans 8. One thing I will say is that I preach the Gospel like an Arminian but pray like a Calvinist and as I have to answer these questions I do so with a heavy heart (because I still don’t get it, just like I don’t get Hell but still mention everytime I present the Gospel and warn those who reject it of it) and pray that the Lord would open their heart to a very gracious and humbling truth.
Vance on 23 Mar 2007 at 2:11 pm #
I am also on the fence on this one, but lean toward Arminianism. To take a hard line on either side requires taking a dogmatic position where there are valid, and strong, arguments on both sides. There is “clear” Scripture supporting both sides, so either Scripture is contradicting itself, or our understanding is limited. I prefer the latter option, so choose to remain humble about which is correct, if either.
There is a little book called “Why I am not a Calvinist” which is very respectful to the Calvinist position, and covers the issues very well. I would highly recommend it to those interested in this debate.
On a lighter note, I found out how to make any hardline Calvinist jump up and start frothing at the mouth. I just say the words “N.T. Wright”!
BTW, thanks for taking my question on your last Theology Unplugged. I would add that I agree completely with Rhome that we have every reason to believe from Scripture, having the benefit of the whole of Scripture, to think that Jesus meant something unique with “The Son of God”. But the question was what the disciples would have thought when they heard it, without such 20/20 hindsight. Also, I am sorry you did not get to put your 2 cents in on the point of “what Peter would have thought on that day”, since my guess is you might have taken a little different angle than Rhome did.
ErasmusClay on 24 Mar 2007 at 9:49 am #
The resurgence of Calvinism*seems to be following an historical pattern of the ebb and flow of the church’s understanding of soteriology. The first records we have of the difficulty of understanding the clear teachings in Christian Scriptures of “predestination/election” and “whosoever will” are found in the writings of Pelagius and the refutation of them by Augustine. The fact that both views were widely held can be seen in the felt need of the church of seek a resolution to the conflict. To this end, the second council of Orange (in July 529) was held at which the teachings of Pelagius were declared anathema and those of Augustine were set as canonical.
History teaches us that, in reality, little was resolved. The position of the 14 Bishops at Orange were adopted by the Bishop of Rome as Dogma. However, it was not long before this dogma was essentially ignored and the practices of the church returned to a more Pelagian (Semi Pelagianism) understanding of soteriology. These conflicting views were held and taught by different bishops and in different geographical areas of the church. And then along comes Calvin and Arminius.
And so the pendulum swings.
I have truly tried to hold in tension the clear teachings in Christian Scriptures of “predestination/election” and “whosoever will” but my Calvinist friends insist that I am naught but a closet Arminian. And, at times, I suspect they are right even though I find limiting our understanding of God’s Grace to pat formulae is counter to the understanding of scripture.
Here is what I believe and Why-
Free Will: Alive and Well
To paraphrase Mark Twain, the reports of the premature death of Free Will, or “Freed Will” as Roger Olson would say” have been greatly exaggerated. Reports of the demise of free will can be found in the writings of many theologians, including the renown Puritan and Baptist Jonathan Edwards, not to mention John Calvin and Augustine of Hippo. This belief, that due to the fallen nature of humankind and imputed sin, has led many to subscribe to a “Hyper Calvinism” position wherein man is totally unable to exercise any role in his being born again; no one has self determinism and thus can not exercise free will.
Exercising my free will, I can not accept this position. (And If you accept this position, are you not exercising your own free will?)
Now, lest I be assaulted on the way to the forum, I want to assure you that “works” have no place in my understanding of regeneration. To wit:
-No one can be born again unless the Holy Spirit first creates within the person an awareness of the great need for redemption.
-Even the faith that one exercises if a free gift from God.
-It is not ones belief that brings about salvation; It is the shed Blood of Jesus the Christ that covers our sin and restores us to a right relation with God.
I believe that we have received an invitation. We are invited, not forced, to make a pilgrimage into the heart and mind of God. According to Christian Scriptures, “a door of welcome seems open to everyone without exception. No person or circumstances other than our own decision can keep us away. ‘whosoever will may come’”. (Dallas Willard from The Divine Conspiracy p11)
So, I would say that I am a Universalist as it relates only to the invitation of God. I would conclude, then, that I believe in self determinism or Free Will. This not withstanding Edwards efforts to dissuade me from such a position. But then what is Free Will?
I will share with you what I believe to be an excellent, if short, article entitled Self Determinism by N. L. Geisler from Elwell Evangelical Dictionary. This explanation works for me.
Self determinism
On this view a person’s acts are caused by himself. Self determinist accept the fact that such factors as heredity and environment often influence one’s behavior. However, they deny that such factors are the determining causes of one’s behavior. Inanimate objects do not change without an outside cause, but personal subjects are able to direct their own actions. As previously noted, self determinist reject the notions that events are uncaused or that they cause themselves. Rather, they believe that human actions can be caused by human beings. Two prominent advocates of this view are Thomas Aquinas and C S Lewis.
Many object to self determinism on the grounds that if everything needs a cause, then so do the acts of the will. Thus it is often asked, What caused the will to act? The self determinist can respond to this question by pointing out that it is not the will of a person that makes a decision but the person acting by means of his will. And since the person is the first cause of his acts, it is meaningless to ask what the cause of the first cause is. Just as no outside force caused God to create the world, so no outside force causes people to choose certain actions. For man is created in God’s image, which includes the possession of free will.
Another objection often raised against self determinism is that biblical predestination and foreknowledge seem to be incompatible with human freedom. However, the Bible does clearly teach that even fallen man has freedom of choice (e.g., Matt. 23:37; John 7:17; Rom. 7:18; 1 Cor. 9:17; 1 Pet. 5:2; Philem. 14). Further, the Bible teaches that God predestines in accordance with his foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2). Predestination is not based on God’s foreknowledge (which would make God dependent upon man’s choices) nor is it independent of God’s foreknowledge (since all of God’s acts are unified and coordinate). Rather, God knowingly determines and determinately knows those who will accept his grace as well as those who will reject him.
A further argument for free will is that God’s commandments carry a divine “ought” for man, implying that man can and should respond positively to his commands. The responsibility to obey God’s commands entails the ability to respond to them, by God’s enabling grace. Furthermore, if man is not free, but all his acts are determined by God, then God is directly responsible for evil, a conclusion that is clearly contradicted by Scripture (Hab. 1:13; James 1:13 - 17).
Therefore, it seems that some form of self determinism is the most compatible with the biblical view of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility.
N L Geisler(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary)
End of Article
So, I shall continue to hold in tension the evangelical doctrines of Predestination and Free Will, not denying one over the other.
One could argue that it would be better to avoid the error of scholasticism as we consider Free Will. By this I mean the bringing to bear on the argument such speculative concepts as posited by Thomas Aquinas’ theory as to whether angels are a species or not. Would it not be better to accept both as true when the scripture says “everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life” and then says “those whom he foreknew he also predestined”. Should we not apply the doctrine of suspended judgment when we have this level of tension presented by Scriptures?
I think it is a worthy consideration.
Clay
Baptist Deacon Emeritus
“The palatability of a doctrine does not determine its veracity”
Michael Patton
fundyreformed on 24 Mar 2007 at 10:27 pm #
Just want to say I enjoyed this look at Romans 9 greatly. I don’t know if
I’ve really thought how Rom. 8 sets the stage for 9-11. That argument
makes it even more clear that Rom. 9 is dealing with personal election and
salvation. I’ve read/heard some non-Calvinists claim that only coorporate
election is in view in Rom. 9. Given the context of ch. 8, and the treatment
of Pharaoh, I cannot agree.
Thanks again.
God bless you richly in Jesus Christ,
Bob Hayton
fundyreformed on 24 Mar 2007 at 10:38 pm #
Erasmus clay quotes Norman Geisler as follows:
“A further argument for free will is that God’s commandments carry a
divine “ought” for man, implying that man can and should respond positively
to his commands. The responsibility to obey God’s commands entails the
ability to respond to them, by God’s enabling grace. Furthermore, if man
is not free, but all his acts are determined by God, then God is directly
responsible for evil, a conclusion that is clearly contradicted by Scripture
(Hab. 1:13; James 1:13 - 17).”
Notice what I highlighted in this quote. Is that phrase really true?
God commands us to live perfectly. He commands us to love God with all of
our being all the time completely. Such a command does not imply that I am
able to do that, even with the Spirit. Does this exempt me from a failure to
always obey completely? I think not.
This assumption, which plays a key role in the argumentation, needs to be
reexamined.
Further notice how he says God would be responsible for evil. In the
passage at hand (Rom. 9), we see that God is the creator and He does what
He wants. There are passages which plainly assert that God is the
ultimate cause of evil acts (Gen. 50:20, Amos 3:6, and Acts 4:27-28, for
instance).
Just wanted to pipe in with these thoughts.
(I understand Erasmus’ triple posting better now! There seems to be some
issues with posting comments here.)
sellison on 25 Mar 2007 at 7:11 pm #
Michael,
Great entry - very open and honest on a difficult subject, IMHO.
Personally, I am with Vance (comment 4), in that while I listen to arguments for both sides, I will humbly accept it’s beyond my understanding right now (and possibly ever).
But, while others have constructed some very thorough and well put together arguments, for and against, I am struggling with some more ‘down to earth’ issues with the Calvinisitic view.
My question is, as a Calvinist, what motivates you to seek after the lost and spread the gospel? Everytime I try to put myself in a Calvinist mindset, I think to myself, ‘So what does it matter if I speak to my neighbor about Jesus Christ?’.
I realize this is probably an elementary question, and I could probably Google an answer or two, but in an effort to _do_ theology together, coupled with the respect I have for Michael and his staff, I feld led to write this post.
Thanks in advance,
Scott
nathanimal on 26 Mar 2007 at 11:57 am #
Is it possible to preach like an Arminian, but to sleep like a Calvinist?
C Michael Patton on 26 Mar 2007 at 2:32 pm #
Scott,
That is a great question. What motivates those who hold to the doctrine of unconditional election to spread the Gospel. St. Thomas Aquinas once said that God not only provides the way, but he also provides the means. I believe that evangelism is the means by which God’s election is appropriated in time.
But I think the primary reason why Calvinists evangelize is that it is commanded by God.
However, I do understand the difficulty and the complacency that this doctrine could bring about in people. But the conditional election view does not help much either as it could produce anxiety and despair with regards to the presentation of the Gospel. What if you don’t present the Gospel? What if you missed an opportunity with your dying father? Could your presentation (or lack thereof) have actually been the catalyst for the redemption of someone? Is God sitting on the edge of His seat hoping that someone will present the Gospel persuasively to your unevangelized neighbor? Or is he bringing it about?
fundyreformed on 28 Mar 2007 at 11:36 am #
On the evangelism question, here is an excerpt from a post I did on the topic.
———–
So for Calvinists, evangelism is about obeying God. And yet it is more. It is about joining God in His mission. It is about spreading God’s glory among the nations for His sake. Calvinists are encouraged that God is the one ultimately responsible for results. This gives us hope to minister in many contexts that might not provide immediate results, from man’s perspective.
————
Hope that helps.
sellison on 29 Mar 2007 at 9:16 pm #
Thanks for the responses - and my apologies for not responding sooner (busy week). I certainly understand the Calvinist view better, but this is such a complex topic it’s going to take some time to adequately and fairly work through. Coincidently, I’ve had numerous conversations over the last week on this subject with numerous individuals, even an interesting one in Sunday school.
Anyway, since a blog isn’t the best medium for threaded conversations, I’ll move any further discussions into the TTP forums.
I’ll check out the mp3 from tonight once you get it up on the site - unfortunately couldn’t make it tonight. Hope it went well.
Side note: Curious if anybody here (since TTP is out of Dallas) is familiar with Scott Camp? He led our revival this week…
C Michael Patton on 29 Mar 2007 at 10:11 pm #
I have not heard of him. Thanks for the comments.
proverbs17 on 01 Apr 2007 at 5:08 am #
I believe Paul’s main theme in Romans 9 is not to teach the doctrine of unconditional election to the Jewish and Gentile Christians living in Rome, but rather as an answer to the question: Why did a majority of the Jews reject Christ?
The climax and summary of Romans 9 is this: “What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.” (Romans 9:30-32).
This, of course, ties in with the main theme of Romans: righteousness is obtained by faith instead of righteousness by works.
The beginning of Romans 10 carries on where Romans 9 left off, by reiterating Paul’s desire for the salvation of his fellow Israelites, and re-emphasize once more that righteousness is by faith (for everyone who believes), and not by works (the Jews sought to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to God’s righteousness).
“Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:1-4)
Of course, even though I don’t think Paul’s primary motive is to explain unconditional election, whether unconditional election is true is still up for debate.
disciple on 25 Jul 2007 at 11:39 pm #
Why can’t this be more efficiently explained in the middle ground?!
“We can choose to not choose God, but we can’t choose to choose God; God chooses us and we either deny (old self) or submit (new self).”
PLEASE NOTE: Submission being God working in us, not us ‘working,’ per Ephesians 2:9.
In other words, can’t the Holy Spirit regenerate us to receive His grace, but that grace be rejected by our sinful will which is allowed due to God’s perfect love, just as it was in the Garden?!
Alternatively, if we accept, wasn’t it the Holy Spirit that layed the grace upon us, and not our own will?!
-b
Jugulum on 29 Jul 2007 at 8:04 am #
Disciple,
Unfortunately, that doesn’t deal with what Paul says about “hardening” in Romans 9.
Nate on 05 Aug 2007 at 7:42 pm #
Michael,
I think which ever way you go it heavily affects your theology and life. I don’t believe in all five points of Calvinism. I think if you subscribe to Unconditional election it becomes very hard to deny any of the others. I have a couple of questions for you Michael if you have the time. 1.) Are we really suppose to have all the theological answers in life? I’m not so sure. Could this be one where we have to sit back and trust God? I would love to have all the answers in a nice systematic form, but that’s not the way God has reveled it to us. 2.) Does Paul want us to focus on Unconditional election? 3.) Can Unconditional election fully be understood? In conclusion, I think the passage was very clear as you put it, but I don’t think I’m ready to make a commitment to five points of Calvinism. This is by far one of the most mysterious and perplexing doctrines out there. It is however one of my personal favorite debates. I love studying this subject matter and I thank you Michael for the excellent evaluation. It has certainly engaged my mind today.
It was a very convincing blog. I’ve really tried to stay away from picking a side. I originally believed in conditional election and then switched to unconditional and currently I’m following the Doctrine of Suspended Judgment.
C Michael Patton on 10 Aug 2007 at 10:38 pm #
Nate, sorry I am just getting to this. I don’t think that we can fully understand or reconcile the issues surrounding unconditional election and human responsibility. I think the two must be held in tension.
I do think that Paul (and God) want us to understand this, seeing it as an important understanding of our salvation. Paul taught this at every church he established, no matter how long he was there. He certianly saw it as an important part of the Gospel.
In the end, while we may not understand it all, I think we will come to a firm conviction that salvation has nothing to do with our actions and everything to do with God’s mercy. Selah my friend.
disciple on 13 Aug 2007 at 7:24 am #
In the Hebrew, we translate three words to the one English word “harden,” where Pharaoh is shown in English translations to clearly harden his own heart in Exodus 8:15, 8:32, and 9:34. So, Pharaoh has the ability to harden his own heart.
Getting back to the Hebrew, then, some commentators note that Pharaoh made himself ’stubborn’ (of his own volition), though the Lord ’strengthened Pharaoh’s courage’, which both were translated to ‘hardened.’ In this paradigm, the Lord ’strengthens outwardly what Pharaoh already is inwardly.’ So, Pharaoh is the initiator of his own heart’s hardening.
Then we come to God’s omniscience. God knew Pharaoh’s will before Pharaoh knew his own will. I think this is the crux of Paul’s argument and the hardest point of Christianity for me - whether man has the ability to choose or reject God or not, God still knows before creating anyone where that person will end up. Thus, the comment about the potter and clay in Romans 9, which is set up by the question “why would God create something destined for destruction?” not the question “is it God or man that chooses eternal salvation or damnation?” So, God knew Pharaoh’s sinful will in advance and planned accordingly.
Finally, we come to God’s goodness and inability to sin. Logically, we can assert that making someone sin is sinful, which is where adopting a position of determinationalism or fatalism comes close to heretical grounds when pointing to God as the determinationalist. Indeed, in Ex 9:34, the verse states “But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.” The hardening in the verse is directly tied to sin. So, turning from God is considered a sin, and God does not sin (side note: also considered as the sin for which Jesus could not die).
Each of the four points above concerning Pharaoh’s Biblical circumstance in particular still points me to the original point: God is the initiator in the plan of salvation, while man can either submit to God’s good will, or reject based on man’s own volition, given to man by God in love.
With love and peace,
-b
Nate on 13 Aug 2007 at 8:44 pm #
Thanks for the response Michael.
youngreformer on 20 Aug 2007 at 8:31 am #
Michael, can you help a brother out? my pastor is neither calvinist nor arminian but he is in love with Karl Barth. i dont know much about him. is there another alternative to calvinism and arminianism that Barth provided? and….what do you think about this alternative? thank you
Kevin on 04 Sep 2007 at 3:43 pm #
Michael,
Why do you have to call yourelf anything?
Why not state what you believe and leave it at that?
Before you even heard of John Calvin and “Calvinism” did the Holy Spirit drop something into your spirit regarding Predestination?
The scriptures are never to be Interpreted apart from scripture itself because the common sense of men will never ever be equipped to even approach the reasoning of Almighty God!
I am eagerly awaiting your reply.
C Michael Patton on 04 Sep 2007 at 3:46 pm #
I don’t HAVE to, I just like to. It helps describe your beliefs. Just like I call myself a Trinitarian…I don’t have to, but it helps people understand what I believe about God’s triune nature.
Hope that helps.
youngreformer on 05 Sep 2007 at 2:38 pm #
o wow. its ok Mike. u dont have to answer my question.
C Michael Patton on 05 Sep 2007 at 3:51 pm #
I am sorry, I guess I just missed your question. It is funny that you should ask this. I was going to post on this in the near future. In short, while there may be some middle ground with some of the issues, the issue of central importance and the primary issue that divides has to do with election. One either believes that God unconditionally elected individuals to salvation (Calvinism) or one believes that he did not (Arminianism). There are different varieties of Arminianism (elect in the Son, elect nation, elect according to forknowledge), but these are still all forms of conditional election.
Hope this helps.
youngreformer on 06 Sep 2007 at 6:33 pm #
Thank you! it does help. but i still dont know where Barth falls into this. was he more of a calvinist or arminian?
Benji on 07 Sep 2007 at 1:11 am #
Wow I have toiled about this subject for years. Being a Reformed Baptist for 3 years, I have been on the side of the Calvinist fervently. Though I do not deny the accuracy in which much of it falls in, it is not the gospel that brings one to Christ.
Many should attest that they were not saved in a Calvinistic soteriology. Many of us were just saved. It should be noted that this is not the “Good News” that saved us nor that will save others. It is important to note that brothers and sisters in Christ can oppose eachother vigorously in this matter but should never discount another for holding their respected view.
I know everyone knows this. Symptoms of “Hyper-Calvinism” should be noted. Lack of prayer, outreach, Arminians are less of believers and are in some darkness. Please rub shoulders with the homeless, the homosexual.
Michael, will you discuss infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism at any time? On a side note, how would you correctly deal with John 3:16? How can this verse fit within the doctrines of grace? I have never received anything logical or worth holding to. Thanks.
And thanks for the Don Piper blog, wonderful!
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 8:32 am #
Benji, John 3:16 is actually fairly straightforward to fit into the doctrines of grace. It is already presented in a qualified form.
For God so loved the world that he gave
his one and only Son, that whoever believes
in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (Jn 3:16)
OK. The key word in this is “whoever”. God will indeed save any who believe in Him, but then this leaves the question open of *who* will believe in him. We have to be careful with the use of words like “the world” since very frequently scripture does not intend them to mean literally everybody. Consider this text, for example:
Rehoboam went to Shechem, for all the Israelites
had gone there to make him king. (1 Kings 12:1)
Now, when you read this, would you say that every last person in Israel was at Shechem? That the entire population of the nation was there? But you understand the meaning, plainly enough. Therefore you need to be careful about not reading too much into what the author is saying. (Now, the typical Arminian response is to say that the Reformed camp reads too little into what the text says. I think it is a fair charge, and we must be very, very careful when we move away from the most plain meaning of a text.)
So the explanation of John 3:!6 is to say, with Romans 10, that everyone who calls on the Lord and believes on Christ will be saved, but we have to look elsewhere in scripture to see who it is that will actually do that, and why.
I hope this helps.
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 8:42 am #
disciple, the Scripture says both. The references you cite certainly do say that for the first plagues, Pharoah hardened his own heart. I’ll give you a bunch of references, though, that show that God certainly did harden Pharoah as well. I think this is the interplay Michael was talking about with the tension between election and personal responsibility.
——————
The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But >>>I will harden his heart>>I will harden Pharaoh’s heart>>the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart>>the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart>>the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart>>the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart>>I will harden Pharaoh’s heart>>I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians
Benji on 18 Sep 2007 at 12:19 pm #
Thanks for the reply. I understand the verse you referred to in 1Kings 12:1 to simply read “…for all the Israelites had gone there to make him king.”
My friend, it says all. Why don’t we Calvinists not simply succumb to that? Why is it so easy for us to take a simple verse like 1Kings 12:1 and flip it upside down and say “all” does not literally mean “all?” It actually makes me laugh!
I have heard Reformers say that there are 14 usages for the word “world.” I have seen 1Peter 3:9 surgically devasted using the same rules. I feel as though Calvinists are criticizing Arminians for picking and choosing what can be spiritualized while Calvos are doing the very same thing!!
For me, whether John 3:16 means He loves the whole WORLD! COSMOS!!! GREEK!!! It is not hard for my faith and my mind to understand this to mean that God perfectly loves, hates, shows mercy, avenges, pours wrath, juudgment, is patient ALL at the SAME time. He loves His creation, He came to save sinners on crack, prostituting. He “took away the Kingdom from some and gave it to the harlots and tax collectors (since they will produce the fruit of it).”
Being a Calvo is something I hold EXTREMELY loose. It did not save me, nor is it keeping me. We tend to subconsciously limit people’s entrance into the Kingdom based on our Theology and we don’t even see it. The gospel is a universal call because God so loved the world.
Possible imbalance with the D.O.G (Doctrines of Grace)? Possibly we have put grace, or God, in a 5 pointed box? Possible that we can be taught something about these points beyond what our mind can comfortably wrap itself around?
Just a few thoughts! Thanks.
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 2:28 pm #
disciple, sorry about my post above getting a little mangled - I tried to add a little formatting to my verses and it didn’t convert them to HTML the way I thought it would. here are the verses.
—————-
The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. (Ex 4:3)
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, (Ex 7:3)
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses. (Ex 9:12)
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. (Ex 10:20)
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go. (Ex 10:27)
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. (Ex 11:10)
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” So the Israelites did this. (Ex 14:4)
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. (Ex 14:17)
————-
Hopefully that comes through a little more legibly.
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 2:45 pm #
Benji - is there no room for flexibility in those verses? Is there no way that you can read 1 Kings 12:1 without having literally every last person in Israel actually visiting the little town of Shechem?
You asked for an explanation of how John 3:16 works with the doctrines of grace and then utterly dismiss my answer, so I guess I don’t know what you’re looking for.
I agree with your overall premise, though. In kind of a funny play on words, while unconditional election is what saves us, unconditional grace is not what saves us, right? If we take the doctrine as accurate, that is great, but at the end of the day we are saved by the mercy of God displayed through the sacrificial death of the Son of God on the cross. Nobody comes to Christ because they finally understand election.
And I agree that we need to be very gentle in how we deal with Arminians and other Christians on this.
Steve on 18 Sep 2007 at 3:06 pm #
Benji, just a quick rejoinder about 2 Peter 3:9, just for fun. This is not a surgical devastation (as you put it) but simply illustrating what the text is saying with a different example. 2 Peter is a letter to a specific group of people, in various ways referred to as the elect (see also 1 Peter).
He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9b)
OK. Now let me change this just a little bit.
Hey John, Bill, Susan, Aman, Julie, and Sarah,
Let’s get together at my place and watch the game this Saturday. I’m not willing that anybody be hungry, so I will provide snacks for everybody.
Steve
Now, would you ever look at that note and assume that I am providing snacks for every last person in the world? Obviously not. It is perfectly clear that I am talking about the people I sent my letter to. Is this really such a stretch? I’m not devastating the verse - I’m just putting it into an analogous context to illustrate this more clearly.
All of that said, I certainly see verses all the time that I think fit more naturally into an Arminian understanding. There is undeniably a tension in scripture, and I’m not anxious to put God in any kind of a box. All of this exists as we try to understand what God has chosen to reveal of himself, and the exercise is always doomed to fail at some level. A quick example — try to explain how ANY miracle could have happened. Walking on water. Raising the dead. Bread from heaven. There is mystery in all of this.
Matt on 26 Sep 2007 at 3:41 pm #
Michael,
I don’t have the book in front of me to check….but I think it was Greg Beale that called John Piper’s ‘Justification of God’ the best exegetical look at Romans 9 that he had ever seen. [It's on the back cover, in my edition!]
I remember getting this book while in college, struggling through it, even to the point of almost putting it down because he said so many things that I didn’t want to hear. But for the one who can make it through, it really is a ‘tour de force.’ So far I’ve given out 3 copies to ‘fence sitters’…and they all were convinced after working through this with Piper.
There is a place for “mystery in all of this” but Paul doesn’t find that mystery between ‘free will’ and ‘election’ (as if both are sort of half-true) but rather in the difference between man and God, and why God shows mercy on anyone at all.
“But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?”
Sometimes I get the impression that the biggest reason why people have trouble with election is because they can’t get their minds around it to work. Well, take a number with Paul in that regard — he doesn’t *fully* understand it either! That’s the ‘mystery’ of election!
B. Turner on 02 Oct 2007 at 2:52 pm #
I know you won’t believe me but your reading into the text and you must leave your presuppositions at the door if you are ever going to rest well at night. Calvinism and Arminianism are mans ideas. They are man trying to box God in. There is biblical truth not mans twist on things. 1st no part of Romans stands alone. The book demands we understand what has been said before we interpret who Pual is talking to and what part of the argument for truth Pual is speaking towards. Jews did not fully understand how Gentiles could accept their Messiah. It seems like a far stretch for a Gentile to even understand who the Lamb of God was and all that implies. God picked Jacob over Esau to bring about His purposes. God did not pick Esau to go to hell. Pual was chosen by God to go to the Gentiles, Jacob was chosen to be part of the promise and Gods redemtive bloodline. Pharoah had plenty of time to repent and understood what he was doing therefore God hardened his heart after he rejected truth. This principle is also taught by Pual in the NT. God has made a provision for forgiveness of sins which all men have need of and most reject because of pride, self-righteousness, choosing untruth for personal gain etc…(most of what Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for). In this generation people will reject the truth and can be turned over to be hardend. One great scheme of the devil is to get Christians confused about their obligation to share the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and its working on those fooled into thinking they were specially chosen because of some mystical roll of the dice. The worst result is “Christians” thinking that they have no need to properly reach the lost because those whom will be saved will be saved. No wonder there are 2500+ languages still without the Gospel in the world. Are those people going to magically come to Christ without any Gospel witness? What about “how will they believe unless they have heard? Your not suggesting Christ/God put them on an Island just to leave them there to die and go to Hell? The reason they are still unreached is because of false doctrine and self-righteous Christians not because of God. Much Love B
Tom I on 01 Nov 2007 at 1:41 am #
Sorry B. Turner, I’m not sensing the love. In respose to your question as to why 2500+ language groups are still w/o the Gospel have you considered that perhaps unreached nations will be reached during the Great Tribulation by the 144,000 prior to Christ’s triumphant return to set up His earthly kingdom? Not that I’m suggesting we stop evangelization efforts until then for if Eph. 2:10 is to be believed evangelization and other good works continue to be accomplished according to God’s will by those who are in Christ Jesus. We hear His voice and follow Him.
Please show us a little compassion for we also love and serve Christ and, as Rom. 14:4 says, He is able to make us stand.
Tom I
tyronebcookin on 02 Nov 2007 at 2:19 pm #
MAN, ya’ll are giving me a migraine! I am actually part of the Calvarminianmolinism Tribe…
Ah, yeah…sorry just trying to throw a little humor in there.
Pete on 10 Nov 2007 at 7:23 am #
Romans 9 taught me that God is sovereign in all his decisions, and has the right to be merciful to those who he decides to show mercy to.
Romans 10 taught me that God extends grace to all men who will believe and have faith.
Romans 11 taught me that God judges all those who do not have faith whether they are on the vine or not.
I can’t see Calvinism as a complete philosophy of Christianity, sure it seems compelling when you talk about Romans 9:6-24, but looking over chapters 10-12 it looses touch. You end up giving some verses more weight than others because they support your conclusion. I can’t see Calvinism as a natural result of scripture. There seems to be a bais towards the end argument in how different scriptures are selected to be authoritative in the argument, and others are explained away with a lot of sidestepping.
proorizo on 14 Nov 2007 at 11:04 am #
Is it possible to be a “Cal-Minian”? As Michael quoted: “Olson said it himself. There are incompatibilities within the Calvinist and Arminian systems of theology that make it impossible to have a hybrid. There is no middle ground between unconditional election and conditional election that I know of.”
C Michael Patton on 14 Nov 2007 at 11:44 am #
proorizo,
While there are compatible issues between the emphasis of Calvinism and the emphasis of Arminianism such as God’s universal love and God’s sovereignty, there is no way to be a Cal-Minian, as you put it, with regards to conditional or unconditional individual election. Even when one says that God unconditionally elected the Church and all who are found in her (as some Arminians do), it is still Arminianism since the Church as an undefined body is all that is unconditionally elected. Individuals would still be elected conditionally, upon the condition that they are found in the Church.
Thanks for the contribution and good question.
B. Turner on 14 Nov 2007 at 3:08 pm #
Tom I
This is in Love. I never said you were a self righteous Christian. Unless you were convicted of that by God I wasn’t pointing fingers just making general observations about the “lostness” around the world and some reasons for it. I hope all of us would grow in the Grace and Knowledge of the King not discourage one another. I would hope this blog is open to opposing views that are biblically based. If not this is just a seperatists forum for the “special ones” or “elect”. Obviously this topic is too big to keep in the parameters of a blog because I really was perplexed by this topic until I studied the Bible as a whole and could see the big picture. As it comes into focus and I see God for who He is and myself for who I am I have nothing to boast about except the Cross of Christ. I pray you are encouraged and growing with the Lord and I did not mean to frustrate anyone. I do think that the box of Calvanism can get dark if we keep our eyes on TULIP instead of God’s word as a whole. Obviously Arminianism is wrong. Scripture is clear. I just ask all those who hold so strongly to “the five points” or even three etc…Lay aside the desire to be right, don’t get puffed up by the knowledge of Scipture and let the Holy Spirit speak to your heart and mind through His word. I don’t know how to word that properly but even if we don’t get this Doctrine worked out between us I’ll still see you in Heaven for I know whom I have believed and I pray we will both stay in communion as a body that we could spread the message about the free gift of God, His Son Jesus Christ to a dark world looking to us for the answers. I know about the 144,000 but God told “US”, me and you to go. I just hope none of us stay here arguing so much we watch lost people walk in front of our window. I may not be able to shed light on the Calvinism thing in your understanding but from one brother to other believers reading this. Go share the message even if your looking for what you think to be the elect one and I believe it is a tender heart who recieves the message by faith I think the worst thing I could do is spend more time here. So I am out. However, I do recognize the need to encourage, and edify the body so if your looking to do that then respond. Take care, God has blessed you, Please pray for me, count me a brother or count me an enemy either way we are suppose to love one another so I hope I have not discouraged you. Much Love BT
tyronebcookin on 14 Nov 2007 at 4:26 pm #
Sigh, I always wonder why this always heads this way…
“Obviously Arminianism is wrong. Scripture is clear” why say this?
I study scripture, I have used Hebrew and Greek, commentaries, dictionaries….scripture still seems to allude the same meaning for all the ’scholars’ that say its clear, and they still have their own interpretation of the ‘clear’ scripture…
Why not just say, ‘Well despite our differences I don’t think we’ll jeopardize our salvation or our call to be disciples of all men’. Its like saying, I’m sorry BUT… ~
I think its clear that all points of Calvinism as well as all points of Arminianism are not correct or Biblical - some are, and some are not - they are assumed or deduced based off of ones own comprehended meaning of the scripture, and/or the said logic he understands.
There are Biblical truths in both beliefs that can be paralleled with scripture, but neither is whole.
Isaac on 15 Nov 2007 at 3:13 pm #
To My Hard-Hearted Protestant Friends,
(Just Kidding, btw.) I hope it’s not a mistake to post on this nice blog as a former evangelical who has since converted to Orthodoxy. I don’t wish to fight, only perhaps to offer another perspective on Romans 9.
History
Let me first get off my chest that St. Augustine was not a calvinist. In his combatting of the pelagian and donatist heresies, he somtimes ventured into hyperbole (this is mentioned by his European contemporaries like St. John Cassian). In his On Rebuke and Grace, for example, he acknowledges his belief in both free will and the possibility for regenerated Christians to fall from grace:
“If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, ‘I have not received,’ because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received. And if, stung with compunction by rebuke, he wholesomely bewails, and returns to similar good works, or even better, certainly here most manifestly appears the advantage of rebuke. But yet for rebuke by the agency of man to avail, whether it be of love or not, depends only upon God.”
People that quote Augustine to promote Calvinism have also usually not read his Retractions, in which he takes back several things he over-stated.
On Greek and Hebrew
If Romans 9 teaches Calvinism so clearly, why didn’t the Greeks, who spoke in the koine dialect for more than a thousand years after Christ (and who still speak modern Greek) understand Paul in this way? The prophets of the Old Testament, and even the Roman Jews to whom Paul was writing his epistle, did not use different vocabulary to distinguish between God’s permissive will and His perfect will. This is clear from Scripture, as when one book mentions that an Israelite census was inspired by God, while the other mentions it was inspired by the devil.
Calvinism presents the One who “so loved the world” as someone different entirely. One who loves everyone and “wills their salvation” but nevertheless only chooses some to unconditionally receive salvation and others are left to the fire. Could one say of someone who has enough antidote to a poison that everyone has taken yet only gives to a few, that he “loves” everyone? Only if one does not understand love.
On Calvin Himself
Calvinists should find some other name for their dogmatic system; the man Calvin was so outrageously wicked that even his longtime protestant friend Servetus got executed, his theology book strapped to his chest and set ablaze so that the bloodthirsty Calvin could watch him writhe and scream in agony.
It seems altogether fitting then, that he would fashion from his own darkened and fleshly understanding an arbitrarily cruel God, full of anger toward everyone despite the fact that He didn’t give them any other choice.
Just some thoughts. Orthodoxy’s understanding of the Scriptures is far deeper than what I have said here. Just want to offer an alternative position.
C Michael Patton on 15 Nov 2007 at 4:48 pm #
Issac, my Orthodox friend, you seem to fail to recognized the assumptions behind your post that, while they may be true, do beg the question of your historical argument.
Your assumption is this: All those who lived in the early church, by virtue of them being closer to the Apostles and the original language can understand these issues better than we can today.
However, most Protestants do not accept this assumption outright. While Protestants would seek to find the essence of our faith (the seed) in the early Church, we believe in what is called semper reformanda. Semper reformanda means “always reforming.” This does not simply mean that the church is always reforming in practice, but in our understanding of truth. Therefore, in some cases, we can have a better understanding of doctrine than the early church (e.g. theory of the atonement, instrumental cause of justification, articulation of the Trinity at 325, understanding of man’s sinfulness, etc). Therefore, while we have great respect for the Church Fathers, we believe that doctrine itself can develop like a seed develops into a tree. The essence is there, but there is even more (leaves, fruit, bark, etc.)
Hopefully, at least in your case, you will see why this type of argument is not ultimately persuasive. There is a respect and accountability to those who have gone before us, but not an ultimate reliance. We stand on their shoulder and push forward.
This is why with regards to the issue of election, we can find seeds of it yet not full articulations. This does not make it true or untrue. The Scripture is our final authority as we ask advice of those who have gone before us.
Hope that helps.
Joe Loc on 29 Nov 2007 at 12:21 am #
Romans 9 is not concerning individual election but rather corporate (in my humble opinion.) The later chapters speak of the church and israel in comparison. Esau and Jacob are representative of the founders of nations coming from the same womb, like how Abraham was the father of nations who are related but different in many ways.
Jeffrey on 29 Nov 2007 at 3:31 pm #
*As the Devil’s Advocate…*
“‘So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.’ We think to ourselves … how can God hold someone accountable for making this choice when it is only God’s election that can cause them to do otherwise?”
Actually, what I think to myself is an even harder question. I ask “how can God hold someone accountable for making this choice when it is God hardening their heart that makes them sin?”
Calvinism teaches that man is unable to respond without God’s grace. But Romans 9:18 seems to go a step further. It has man sinning because God Actively makes them sin.
As you have argued, the question “Why does he still find fault?” shows that if we are following Paul correctly, we should find 9:18 to be unfair.
But the question “For who resists His will?” seems to validate the hyper-Calvinist/fatalist who believes that man sins because God makes them sin. The question shows that if we interpret 9:18 to mean that to not sin would require resisting God’s will, then we are following Paul correctly. This passage doesn’t point to Total Depravity for the cause of man’s rejection God. It points to God as actively causing man to reject God.
What’s the difference between these two arguments?
Steve Perry on 29 Nov 2007 at 10:42 pm #
The problematic admission of God causing people to sin cannot be overstated. If God is causally responsible for sin, then he is evil and cannot be trusted. This is an afront to his character and should never be a serious consideration no matter how much we want to uphold God’s sovereignty. The result is contradictory statements throughout Scripture about God’s nature and a capricious evil sovereign being. If God is good, His elective purposes are good. Appealing to God’s sovereign purposes to excuse evil caused from himself is patently contradictory. God’s elective purposes are good because they are intrinsically in agreement with His nature.
kwk on 03 Dec 2007 at 9:10 pm #
Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve seen a “Cal-minian’ resolution to this debate within what is traditionally considered Lutheran theology. To wit:
According to Romans 9 (and Romans 3, and Romans 6, and John 3, and…), God predestines some to heaven, by His own grace and not by their own choice or merit–thus Arminianism fails.
And yet, God does not actively predestine others to condemnation. “Whoever does not believe is condemned already” (John 3:18) seems to me to indicate that the unbeliever is responsible for his or her own damnation–thus Five-point Calvinism fails.
This likewise answers the question of how God can love the whole world (Gr. “kosmos”, i.e. everybody), and can offer salvation to everyone, and yet not everybody is saved. To go with the poison-antidote analogy from a previous post, God graciously offers the antidote to everyone, but some choose not to take it. And that is their responsibility, not God’s. It’s too bad the Calvinist/Arminian debate only focused on the two sides, because from where I stand, there really is a resolution to this alleged dilemma.
This thread may have run its course already, but if the admittedly terse explanation given above needs further elaboration (or if people think it’s just plain bogus), I’d be happy to contine the discussion.
Steve Perry on 03 Dec 2007 at 11:19 pm #
While the above “appears” to be a mediating position, it is simply a failure to admit the logical consequence of a determinative view of predestination/election. God’s failure to predestine some to salvation by default makes all who are not condemned to hell. The Calvinist would say this is in keeping with God’s sovereign purposes which are a mystery to us. I say bull-hockey. If one is left to choose God without his enabling grace, then one is effectively condemned to hell for a choice that is impossible to make. This does not seem to be in line with God’s will declared in various places in Scripture which holds people responsible for choosing or not choosing to follow Him. If God holds people responsible for something that is impossible for them to do, He is effectively a capricious God who does not love all and arbitrarily condemns some created in His image for eternal punishment.
kwk on 04 Dec 2007 at 1:19 am #
I disagree, Steve. Accepting “determinative” predestination to Heaven (which is taught straightforwardly in Romans 9, from what I can tell) does not necessitate accepting predestination to Hell, in the sense of God choosing to condemn people there through no fault of their own.
God *does* offer His grace to all. Scripture states that all are without excuse (Romans 1:20). No one can come to faith without God’s grace, but if one chooses to reject that grace (to whatever extent one has received it), that is not God’s fault.
Part of the problem here is caused, I believe, by a faulty view of Original Sin. Arminians see mankind as responsible for overcoming Sin via a synergistic relationship with God, for otherwise mankind cannot be individually responsible for the effects of Sin. However, the Bible seems to teach both that mankind is dead in sin without God, and yet still responsible for his condition before Him.
At the same time, however, Calvinists also stumble over Scripture, particularly when it comes to both Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace. Some discussion has already taken place around John 3:16 and God so loving the *world*. But there is also the occasion where Jesus wept over Jerusalem, wishing they would place their trust in him but recognizing that his will was thwarted by humanity’s love of darkness.
Thus, I hold to neither Five-Point (nor even Three-Point) Calvinism nor Arminianism. But I hold to more than just a negative argument against these two systems. There is a positive case (which I’ve described just a little) to be made for (single, not double) predestination, for monergistic salvation, for universal justification, and for (limited) free will. Which is fortunate, because if these couldn’t all work together with God’s goodness and omnipotence, I’d be inclined to think of the whole enterprise as incoherent.
Steve Perry on 04 Dec 2007 at 2:30 am #
Ok. I don’t see Romans 9 as particular election at all nevertheless I will engage your argument here. It sounds like you are making an arminian argument when you say that God’s grace is offered to everyone i.e. through the death and resurrection of Christ (John 12:32). This is the universal call to salvation. Romans 1:20 has to do with natural revelation, not grace. Faith is not a synergistic thing but is predicated upon the one doing the believing. God has accopmlished everything we need (1 John 2:2) atoning for the sins of the world. we are required to respond in faith to the message of His Son (Romans 10:17). I think your system is faulty and self-contradictory at least from what you have explained. Monergistic salvation offers no place for faith, it is determinism. Universal justification is not effectual unless you are limiting it to the elect? A compatibalist view of free will cannot escape the conclusion that God willingly condemns individuals to hell because he does not give them the ability to do other than what they choose to do. This is essentually taking the hands off the wheel as the car careens to hell. I may be reading you wrong here so can you provide clarification as it seems to me you have not provided a real option between the two positions.
Steve Perry on 04 Dec 2007 at 3:04 am #
Michael,
I did not see anywhere in this discussion mention of God’s electing people for specific purposes. All of the examples in Romans 9 are exactly that, it is not referrring to individual salvation. Pharoah and Jacob were elected for specific purposes by God to fulfill His will. Should we think that Pharoah went to heaven? I would hardly think so. Therefore, I propose a fourth option to your initial post 4) God electively chooses individuals to fulfill his divine purposes. Those purposes can be judgment executed by objects of wrath i.e. Pharoah to make his power known and He also chooses individuals to carry on the messianic lineage i.e. Jacob. Romans 9: 3, 31-33 form an inclusio dealing with the nation of Israel and should provide the hermenuetic for interpreting everything within them. It is quite distinct from Romans 8 but similar in that its talking about God’s divine purposes. Thoughts?
Steve
tyronebcookin on 04 Dec 2007 at 8:52 am #
If someone would expound a little on the following thought I have:
Over and over again I read about Sovereignty…and most arguments SEEM to give the interpretation that if God can be rejected or ‘trumped’ by not being chosen, that renders God withought sovereignty.
I see this argument over and over again stated different ways BUT my question is this…
If God chooses to let you make a choice, how is God not sovereign anymore? Thats the way several make it sound, but thats simply not true.
If I choose to let you do or not do something, in effect you have still chosen one even if you reject the other and it did not effect my command because you still have to make a choice. It did not take my sovereignty away.
The only thing I see here are two ‘predestined’ choices, and one must be accepted, even if you think you have rejected both, you still receive one of them.
Comments? Clarification of the use of the word Sovereignty in different dialogue on God and election/predestination?
Steve Perry on 04 Dec 2007 at 2:26 pm #
Hey Tyronebcookin,
I’ll offer my thoughts. Often sovereignty is viewed from the perspective of absolute control ie. God is the only one allowing and deciding things in our world. This is required in a monergistic view of faith where God is the actor in every phase of the salvation process and humans simply the recipient of his mercy and grace.
I agree with you that the ability to choose must involve causal creatures which God has sovereignly created. This does not detract from sovereignty because a sovereign king does not determistically cause all the decisions of the people in his kingdom and yet he is still the sovereign ruler. However, this is not the typical meaning of “sovereign” employed within the reformed perspective.
Steve
tyronebcookin on 04 Dec 2007 at 3:38 pm #
Thank you for your thoughts Steve.
Another thing I wouldn’t mind hearing thoughts and comments on that I will put simply so as not to write pages…
Speckled here and there (this blog and others) we revisit the debate whether one really makes a choice or not, because how does one choose when he is incapable of having faith without God? (maybe this last phrase is really two different questions?)
But I wonder if the word ‘faith’ gets more than double meaning in these dialogue/debates?
I will use the term ‘unspiritual’ just to differ from God given faith…we each have faith proven or taken away based on trust. If we are about to experience something for the first time, we weigh the options and/or facts (or how much we trust the object, case, person, etc…) then do it, take it, get it…etc. Like a doorknob, we have faith that it is going to turn and open something up in our house every day, our car starts when we turn the key, just little examples of things taken for granted that we trust to work for us.
So to an extent we have an unspiritual faith that we use day to day, for short and long term decisions that we make, things we do, things we experience.
Explain to me the argument of not being able to have any, or not enough faith to accept the truth of Jesus on our own. And then after deciding this would be something we would want, can an enable Jesus/God/Holy Spirit to help us have more faith or the proper faith to continue this out in our lives.
K12meter on 04 Dec 2007 at 4:41 pm #
Irenaeus, in common with other Eastern
theologians, places relatively little emphasis on sin, because he regards salvation as the bestowal
of life rather than of forgiveness, and as a victory over mortality rather than of forgiveness, and
as a victory over mortality rather than over sin.
Now this may seem off base to this discussion but I really dont think so. God’s intent has always been to have creation in relationship with Him. This isn’t just about ‘man’ but about all of creation. It is about restoring ‘man’ to God’s original intent for him in relationship to God.
Michael you bring up ’semper reformanda’ since I am sure you are ’sola scriptura’ you mean that God is constantly revealing new things that others haven’t seen. Getting pretty close to the Gnostics aren’t we. Hidden knowledge that only a few will see and understand? Are you also ready to throw out the OT as being just for the Jew?
I know I am jumping around but hey that is what blogs are for right? As far as my studies of Greek and the NT go the Greek word used for predestination means at its root a pre knowing not a pre choosing. Since God is outside of time a concept that it is impossible for us as the created to fully comprehend He pre knows everthing as it relates to being in time.
I have more but Michael are you a double barreled predestinationist?
Finally, you need to start reading Genesis 1 and 2 before going directly to Genesis 3.
kwk on 04 Dec 2007 at 5:02 pm #
Hello tyronebcookin,
My basic reason for thinking that humankind does not have “enough” faith to decide on our own to follow God comes from my understanding of Scripture, specifically where it states that we were “dead in our sins” (Ephesians 2, Colossians 2). Dead things cannot choose to become alive, they can only be made alive by external means (thus Jesus saying “I chose you”). Things that are alive can, however, subsequently can choose to be not alive, whether through a single decisive act (suicide) or through a slower process (e.g. choosing not to consume the requisite nutrition). This latter point is a bit off-track, however, as eternal perseverance is not at issue at the moment.
Also, to clarify my earlier comments somewhat in response to Steve, who said “monergistic salvation leaves no room for faith; it is determinism”:
This is what I mean by “monergism”: mankind does not cooperate in his salvation, nor even in his coming to faith(”being made alive”). However, after salvation and faith are offered by God, one can on his or her own reject the offer of God’s grace. So it is not solely and unilaterally deterministic; God remains entirely responsible for our salvation, but we remain entirely responsible for our damnation. I agree that this makes universal salvation not universally effectual. But it does not mean God “willingly condemns” anyone. No one has chosen the right path in even the limited ways he or she may able to, thus God is proven just when He judges. Even if we can’t help but be sinful, we have still each and every one of us wilfully chosen to act contrary to God’s will on the matter.
On a more conciliatory note, I can see how it can appear that one has “chosen” God, based on personal experience. However, from my perspective, when one, for example, prays the “Sinners Prayer”, one is not choosing to believe; rather, in order to evey pray such a prayer one must have already been brought to faith by God.
But to be honest, my hunch is that this particular theological point may be underdetermined by the data (Scripture). One can take the “dead in your sins” passages and get some type of monergism, and then interpret the imperative “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” in some limited way as a result, or one can start from the imperative statements and derive some type of synergistic view, which requires the “dead in your sins” passages to be explained (away?) as only a limited analogy. So, I am not all that hung up on the picture one uses to describe the process of conversion as long as one avoids any thought of God “owing” us salvation because we have kept our part of the bargain through making a “choice for God”. Steve, do we at least agree on this?
tyronebcookin on 04 Dec 2007 at 7:41 pm #
Thank you for your thoughts KWK.
I will take some time to think about and look over the scriptures because I know there are a few other things I would like to hear some thoughts on.
I can relate to the Lord choosing us, and see this as a whole throughout scripture but I also see our choice thru scripture.
Maybe I tend to simplify more than should be in basic/general terminology, but It sort of equates like this in my brain -
I have chosen you to be a light unto the world, but because I have given you free will (in my sovereignty) you still have to pick to choose me in order to receive what I have for you, BUT never the less my will, will be accomplished with or without you. (further plans down the road)
To me, this is a two part choice…one that God made in the beginning and one that we have to make now, in our present life/being. I won’t try to reference a thousand scriptures but scripture supports this view of looking at it, God choosing you and you choosing him.
What would this type of outlook on the scripture be considered in theologians terms, and where, or do, you see a problem with this thinking?
thanks again for everybodies thoughts and input.
kwk on 04 Dec 2007 at 9:31 pm #
I don’t actually have a problem with this line of thinking–in fact, I think it is a very important idea that should be taught more clearly in seminaries and from pulpits everywhere. While not all Christians would make a clear distinction between “justification” and “sanctification”, I certainly would. I completely agree with (and find an enormous amount of Scriptural support for) our choosing to enact God’s will in our daily life as Christians. Whereas “salvation” is a one-time deal accomplished by Jesus and appropriated by each individual via faith in Him (Romans 3), “working out our salvation” (Philippians 2) is an ongoing process in which we actively participate.
While some actions are clearly within God’s purview (and God’s alone), and some things are clearly (though not exclusively) within humanity’s, there is still the tricky theological task of deciphering precisely where humanity’s efforts kick in. Hence my previous statements about different “pictures” for this process. If we (quite rightly) give credit to God for even the mundane activities that we ourselves do, then just maybe our cooperation is not precluded in other areas, even if Scripture tends to focus only on God’s role in that matter. I don’t see such synergism holding in the case of one coming to faith, for example, but I can certainly see why one *could*, consistent with one’s overall understanding of Scripture, view such an action with a modicum of synergy.
Steve Perry on 05 Dec 2007 at 2:47 am #
Hey KWK,
Thanks for your responses. I don’t think I would couch what I’m talking about in the terms of “having enough faith” or some kind of qualitative distinction between God originated faith versus human originated faith. I think faith as it is described in the Bible is putting one’s trust in someone/something. God can’t do that for someone because then it becomes something other than faith. I like the evocative analogy of a terrorist taking someone hostage and forcing someone to do something. No matter how compelling the motivation it is never an honest one.
The analogy of being dead in sin is true in a sense but I think it gets pushed too far because Abraham was in that very state when his “faith was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4 is key in this discussion because Abraham believed God, which was not a work, and was credited with righteousness. It clearly states that faith is not a work, but comes from the one who puts their trust in God. Eph. 2: 8-9 is clear that salvation comes from God, but the antecedent is salvation in the passage, not faith. Salvation comes from God, faith is required of us. This is what a synergistic view of salvation entails. Rom. 10:9 talks about confession and belief, it mentions nothing about regeneration. In fact, Romans 10 is crucial to this discussion
“9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame”
Putting our trust in God is our responsibility in response to his message. I would say that in Romans 10 we see regeneration resulting from the preaching of the message of Christ:
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
I think the main issue is the distinction between how the different systems view regeneration. Calvinism, as I understand it, holds that regeneration happens to a person before they believe. What causes that is God’s decretive election and predestining. I might be wrong on that, can you provide clarification. Arminianism resolves the issue by saying prevenient grace is the solution ie. God’s enabling grace through Christ’s death and resurrection provides man with the ability to hear and cho
Steve Perry on 05 Dec 2007 at 2:50 am #
cont’d
and choose him. I think I would hold to God’s Word as the regenerating agent and belief is on the person to respond to the message they hear. God initiates through what he has done in His Son and the subsequent message of His Son, man must respond to this knowledge which regenerates them when they hear it and makes them able to choose. I’m not sure if this idea is part of some other system so if you know of any I’d appreciate any help in knowing of it. Thus, the preaching of the message is critical to people coming to faith.
“14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”"
I think in your comment:
“in order to ever pray such a prayer one must have already been brought to faith by God.” I would say this is according to your view of regeneration. My argument is that God regerates through His message and thus the faith is from God but it is owned and acted upon by the recipient of the message.
In response to your monergistic view, I do not believe it allows for any faith at all because there is no point where the individual takes on the responsibility of believing. It is God does the believing in every step and I believe that contradicts the witness of Scripture.
Yes, I would agree with you that God does not owe us anything. However, He has chosen to make his salvation known to us and we are held responsible for how we respond to his message. One must be able to respond to be held responsible, otherwise, God does willingly condemn by not extending his grace to any but the elect.
Tyronebcookin, I think what you are describing is the synergistic view of salvation. I would agree with your comments.
My main point is that if we see that God acts in a synergistic way with human beings all through the testaments of Scripture ie. the covenant and Israel, Abraham and the promise then why is there a need to see the soteriological process in a different light. Shouldn’t we be consistent in seeing that God, because of his mercy, extends his call to all people to be in relationship with him and his message condemns or justifies those who believe. Sorry this has been a long one, but I’d welcome your thoughts.
Steve
tyronebcookin on 05 Dec 2007 at 9:26 am #
Thank you Steve and KWK, it has been great to get multiple thoughts and comments on my queries or ‘wondering’ I would love to respond with thoughts on what you said (laughing to myself) but I feel I am ‘not at that level yet’ and I have enjoyed reading the dialogues here, and then going back and referencing scripture and ‘what not’ in order to school myself a little better…
For the most part I have understand a great deal of your views and thoughts and have given me much to think about for my own questions I have given out here.
But I was most impressed with the way you could dialogue or debate without getting ‘nasty’ or have a feeling of getting attacked.
So for now I will continue to monitor the comments and think about what you have written here.
Thanks KWK & Steve)
K12meter on 05 Dec 2007 at 11:05 am #
A really good discussion thread, tyrone, kwk and steve. I think if you study the early church documents you will find as I believe Steve states a synergistic theology regarding salvation.
Synergistic in that man has to respond to what God has done for him. If you look at the Hebrew word for salvation which is usually translated deliverance you find that it has that exact meaning. It entails the response given to the act.
So God acts on our behalf to save us and we respond either in the affirmative or the negative.
Wesley termed our response the result of preventient grace. The word prevent in Wesley’s day meant ‘to come before, precede, anticipate’. He used this to counter the Calvinistic doctrine of election/predestination. He developed this concept after an in depth study of the early church documents.
Finally, I think you will find that the early church saw justification and sanctification as one event not a process.
Thanks for letting me chime in. I look forward to hearing the replies and continuing search for Truth.
kwk on 05 Dec 2007 at 3:00 pm #
Steve, you focus on the synergistic acts of God, which certainly do abound in Scripture, but I still take issue with applying them in a soteriological context. Without undertaking an in-depth study of the matter, my hunch is that the bilateral aspects of the Covenant(s) are aimed at those who *already* had some sort of relationship with God. I’m thinking specifically of the Israelites at Sinai who had been following YHWH for many generations prior to the codification and mutual ratification of the Law. Or, to use your example of Abram, Genesis 15:6 comes *years* after Abram’s calling in Genesis 12. So I think it’s incorrect to say that Abram ws “dead in his sin” when his faith was credited to him as righteousness. In fact, James 2 connects Abraham’s righteousness with an even *later* event: his willingness to sacrifice Isaac.
From what I can tell, one could just as easily focus on the numerous occasions where God acted unilaterally throughout the history of his Covenant with his chosen people, and derive strong support for a monergistic view of salvation on that basis.
K12meter, regarding the early church’s view on justification overlapping with sanctification: does this view correlate at all with those in the early church who decided to forego baptism until their deathbed, so that they wouldn’t lose their salvation by sinning too badly after they were supposed to be “purified”? That seems to me to betray a misunderstanding of how we as sinners become perfected; or in other words, an improper conflation of justification and sanctification.
Then again, maybe we’re using the words differently. I see sanctification as the “buidling up” of the faith of believers, resulting in more and more good works. This is an ongoing “refining” that we are constantly exhorted to pursue in Scripture. Thus, if the early church really did see sanctifcation in this sense as a one-time affair (do you have any specific references?), they were wrong.
Steve Perry on 05 Dec 2007 at 5:17 pm #
Hey KWK,
Thanks for the response. I get your point with Israel and Abraham being with God prior to the establishment of the covenant and promise. I guess I would see those periods as correlary to the period of God’s calling. He calls Israel out of Egypt and Abraham to another land. The covenant is in the form of a Hittite vassal treaty which has requirements from both the sovereign and vassal in maintaining the treaty. This is a synergistic process. Abraham believed God that he would make his descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky. This faith was based on his trust in God to fulfill his promise and this faith was credited as righteousness. It may be possible to argue that God calling Abraham was a regenerative act but then I would say this is simply correlary to us hearing the message of the Gospel. In both situations, it is a synergism. As far as James’ view, he used the sacrificing of Isaac in Gen. 22 as the archetype example of Abraham’s faith in action. His use of the imperfect “soonergy” (sorry, not sure how to transliterate the Greek) is imperfect ie. continuous action in the past and shows that from 15:6 to 22:17 he ongoingly was being credited with righteousness for his actions. So I still see a synergistic view here.
Steve
Tom I on 06 Dec 2007 at 1:11 pm #
Dear fellow followers of Christ,
I am a Calvinist I guess. I came to my conclusions reluctantly. If you can help me understand how a person who is not righteous, who is dead in trespasses and sins, who does not understand God and who does not seek after God could have the ability to choose God apart from a miracle I would change my mind.
My understanding is that one’s soul, i.e. mind, will and emotions, is set free to see the Kingdom of God and to desire and choose God’s Kingdom over any other by following Christ at some point in one’s lifetime, as described in Hebrews, chapter 11,
Tom I on 06 Dec 2007 at 2:30 pm #
and confirmed by my own experience. Further, my understanding of Scripture is that the unsaved human being’s judgement before God does not hinge on whether or not he is free to make a choice apart from the miracle but rather on the fact he is created in God’s image with a soul, limited though it is by the sin nature. He will be judged by his deeds with respect to the evidence for or against his showing love, mercy, justice, etc. as his conscience accuses or excuses him. Because God is Just He will Judge rightly those condemned to hell.
If a person does not desire God he will not be disappointed if that which he does not desire is not attained at the end of his lifetime. Scripture, it seems to me, is directed at those who can hear God’s voice, to wake them from the dead, to cause them to fear for themselves and for those who do not yet know God. Thus we evangelize by preaching the Word as He commanded. Some believe for a while based on these efforts and then fall away but had they known God, had there been a work of God in their hearts, there could have been nothing to have caused them to reject Him. He is life itself to those whose eyes are opened to truly trust Him.
As human beings it seems we hope that preaching freedom of the will to choose God and obey Him will ensure successful societal, familial and ecclesiastical institutions. When these institutions fail we preach freedom of the will all the more. Yet the Bible says though we are in the flesh we do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. That is our freedom of choice. After one has experienced the miracle of faith in Christ he truly has free will to choose between the flesh and the Spirit. It is through the discipline of the Lord and the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit one’s soul is trained to choose righteous acts and attitudes.
I am open to the Scriptural basis for showing that a man dead in trespasses and sins has the ability to choose life apart from the miracle that makes him alive, able to see the Kingdom of God (from afar) and able to use his will to choose Christ.
Respectfully,
Tom I.
spumoni on 06 Dec 2007 at 7:36 pm #
Tom,
I would say that the process of regeneration puts mankind in a place of being able to choose God. Through the message of Christ, men and women’s wills are restored to be in a position to choose or reject God. It is God’s grace through the death and resurrection of Jesus that enables men and women to be in this position. John 12:32 “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” John 6:44a “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” God draws all men through the message of His Son.
Romans 10:17 “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” The ability to hear the message of God and respond is through the regenerative working of the Gospel. The miracle is God’s Son dying on the cross for our salvation. That is the miracle that brings dead men to life to be able to choose him. Romans 5:7-9 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. ” John 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
I stand by my point that if God condemns people for something they cannot do, then he cannot be trusted and is not good. This is self-evident. Our hope is in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. His atonement for all sin 1 John 2:2, and his promise to whoever believes in him John 3:16 ensures that men and women are held accountable for their choices