Comments on: Understanding the postmodern mind and the emerging church http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/ Just another WordPress weblog Fri, 05 Dec 2008 02:50:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: Claire http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-5560 Claire Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:28:57 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-5560 This really helped me with an assignment about postmodernism, thankyou! (I've referenced this properly in my bibliography, don't worry.) -Claire This really helped me with an assignment about postmodernism, thankyou!
(I’ve referenced this properly in my bibliography, don’t worry.)

-Claire

]]> By: Joseph Lucas http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-4261 Joseph Lucas Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:30:42 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-4261 I appreciate the succinct explanation of the "emerging church" vis-a-vis post-modernism; but I take issue with the comparison with Eastern Orthodox apophaticism. A theologian well versed in Orthodox teaching, I do not see any similarity. Apophatic theology has never been an attempt to avoid theological clarity, but rather an attempt to place perimeters around human thought to prevent heretical ideas and miscreant praxis. While it is true that apophatic definitions are stated in the negative to preserve the infinite mystery of our infinite God, the precision of these statements simultaneously provide cataphatic affirmation. The many dogmas defined at the great Ecumenical Councils were phrased in exactly this way. I appreciate the succinct explanation of the “emerging church” vis-a-vis post-modernism; but I take issue with the comparison with Eastern Orthodox apophaticism. A theologian well versed in Orthodox teaching, I do not see any similarity. Apophatic theology has never been an attempt to avoid theological clarity, but rather an attempt to place perimeters around human thought to prevent heretical ideas and miscreant praxis. While it is true that apophatic definitions are stated in the negative to preserve the infinite mystery of our infinite God, the precision of these statements simultaneously provide cataphatic affirmation. The many dogmas defined at the great Ecumenical Councils were phrased in exactly this way.

]]> By: Geoff Matheson http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-20 Geoff Matheson Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:34:57 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-20 Wow - thanks for that. I'm fairly certain that I haven't heard a better explanation than what you've presented here. I'm not 100% sure I agree with your conclusions, but it certainly has me thinking Wow - thanks for that. I’m fairly certain that I haven’t heard a better explanation than what you’ve presented here. I’m not 100% sure I agree with your conclusions, but it certainly has me thinking

]]> By: Ken Wilson http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-19 Ken Wilson Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:03:45 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-19 A good evaluation. Thank you. To continue the train of though, what I observe with dismay is the increasing combination of soft post modernism with seeker sensitive strategies. The focus on seeker friendliness (usually to stimulate growth, irrespective of other vocalized reasons) usually subtly pushes the postmodern view towards the hard side. At the same time, it can corrode foundational beliefs. The two (subtle post modernism and seeker sensitivity), acting together, can refocus church leadership on business considerations (growth) and away from foundational, Christ centered ones. Sadly, the shift is also often couched in Good News rhetoric. The reality can be a church that looks to creeping postmodern philosophy as a necessary requirement to become seeker friendly, all in the name of attracting converts. This effectively preaches that the overarching power of the Holy Spirit and the Sovereignty of God are at least partially moot, not working in modern times without the help of man. Is this soft apostasy? I don't know... A good evaluation. Thank you.

To continue the train of though, what I observe with dismay is the increasing combination of soft post modernism with seeker sensitive strategies. The focus on seeker friendliness (usually to stimulate growth, irrespective of other vocalized reasons) usually subtly pushes the postmodern view towards the hard side. At the same time, it can corrode foundational beliefs.

The two (subtle post modernism and seeker sensitivity), acting together, can refocus church leadership on business considerations (growth) and away from foundational, Christ centered ones. Sadly, the shift is also often couched in Good News rhetoric. The reality can be a church that looks to creeping postmodern philosophy as a necessary requirement to become seeker friendly, all in the name of attracting converts.

This effectively preaches that the overarching power of the Holy Spirit and the Sovereignty of God are at least partially moot, not working in modern times without the help of man.

Is this soft apostasy? I don’t know…

]]> By: A Response to an Emerging Church Definiton « Missio Dei http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-18 A Response to an Emerging Church Definiton « Missio Dei Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:50:10 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-18 [...] The following is a response to C. Michael Patton’s post, “Understanding the Postmodern and the Emerging church” [...] [...] The following is a response to C. Michael Patton’s post, “Understanding the Postmodern and the Emerging church” [...]

]]> By: links for 2007-09-07 at Dwight::Knoll http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-17 links for 2007-09-07 at Dwight::Knoll Mon, 10 Sep 2007 22:40:51 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-17 [...] Parchment and Pen | Understanding the postmodern mind and the emerging church “When asked by the group which side that I agree with, I told them with all sincerity, “When I am around postmoderns, I am a modernist; when I am around moderns, I am a postmodernist.”” (tags: article blog theology postmodernism) [...] [...] Parchment and Pen | Understanding the postmodern mind and the emerging church “When asked by the group which side that I agree with, I told them with all sincerity, “When I am around postmoderns, I am a modernist; when I am around moderns, I am a postmodernist.”” (tags: article blog theology postmodernism) [...]

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-16 C Michael Patton Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:39:22 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-16 Jay, there is a spectrum of belief among soft postmoderns. I did not intend that there be a definite line, but the presentation of the options. If you are a hard postmodern, this, by my definition above means that you don't believe in a transcendent truth that exists outside of your subjective cognition. If this is the case, then this is antithetical to Christianity as Christianity presupposes trancendence. Obviously for Christianity to be true, God would have to exist in reality, not just your mind. Therefore, if you describe your self as a hard postmodernist, then you cannot also be Christian unless you redefine what it means to be Christian. Hope that clarifies. Jay, there is a spectrum of belief among soft postmoderns. I did not intend that there be a definite line, but the presentation of the options.

If you are a hard postmodern, this, by my definition above means that you don’t believe in a transcendent truth that exists outside of your subjective cognition. If this is the case, then this is antithetical to Christianity as Christianity presupposes trancendence. Obviously for Christianity to be true, God would have to exist in reality, not just your mind.

Therefore, if you describe your self as a hard postmodernist, then you cannot also be Christian unless you redefine what it means to be Christian.

Hope that clarifies.

]]> By: Jacob http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-15 Jacob Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:27:21 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-15 Great post. Well thought out. I disagree with some of the ways that you framed "hard" and "soft" postmodernism and how you presume there is a clear divide between the two. Is there? Is the divide that clear and unmistakable? Or is the divide an analytical distinction that makes understanding the wide variety of folks identifying with the emerging belief? The clear divide that you posited leads you to make claims like this: "It is not possible to be a hard postmodernist and be a Christian." The claim that it is "not possible" isn't empirically supportable. Or let me put it this way: I am and know other "hard" postmoderns that unequivocally identify as followers of Jesus. Are we Christians? I'm not sure what that means. But I try to live in the way of Jesus, either way. That brings us to a quintessential postmodern condition. You assert that it is impossible. And I'm saying only from your angle, for it is quite possible from mine and those with whom I gather. Great post. Well thought out. I disagree with some of the ways that you framed “hard” and “soft” postmodernism and how you presume there is a clear divide between the two. Is there? Is the divide that clear and unmistakable? Or is the divide an analytical distinction that makes understanding the wide variety of folks identifying with the emerging belief?

The clear divide that you posited leads you to make claims like this: “It is not possible to be a hard postmodernist and be a Christian.”

The claim that it is “not possible” isn’t empirically supportable. Or let me put it this way: I am and know other “hard” postmoderns that unequivocally identify as followers of Jesus. Are we Christians? I’m not sure what that means. But I try to live in the way of Jesus, either way.

That brings us to a quintessential postmodern condition. You assert that it is impossible. And I’m saying only from your angle, for it is quite possible from mine and those with whom I gather.

]]> By: Kester Smith http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-14 Kester Smith Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:11:50 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-14 Excellent. Well said. I've been doing similar thinking on this. If you're interested: http://pastorkes.blogspot.com/2007/08/humility-mystery-and-i-dont-know.html http://pastorkes.blogspot.com/2007/01/god-is-bigger.html Enjoy! -Kester Excellent. Well said. I’ve been doing similar thinking on this. If you’re interested:

http://pastorkes.blogspot.com/2007/08/humility-mystery-and-i-dont-know.html

http://pastorkes.blogspot.com/2007/01/god-is-bigger.html

Enjoy!

-Kester

]]> By: Emergente o Cristiano? « sujetosalaRoca http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-13 Emergente o Cristiano? « sujetosalaRoca Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:47:49 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-13 [...] Si desean leer más acerca del postmodernismo y las iglesias emergente, pueden leer el artículo de Michael Patton de Reclaiming the Mind Ministries aquí…  [...] [...] Si desean leer más acerca del postmodernismo y las iglesias emergente, pueden leer el artículo de Michael Patton de Reclaiming the Mind Ministries aquí…  [...]

]]> By: Hard and Soft Postmodernism, the Emerging Church http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-12 Hard and Soft Postmodernism, the Emerging Church Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:06:32 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-12 [...] You can read the entire post here. [...] [...] You can read the entire post here. [...]

]]> By: Darryl's Blog http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-11 Darryl's Blog Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:49:21 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-11 <strong>Understanding the postmodern mind and the emerging church</strong> A thoughtful review is sometimes hard to find. Just found this article on the emerging church and it seems to highlight some of the important issues raised by the emerging church. It highlights some of the positives as well as... Understanding the postmodern mind and the emerging church

A thoughtful review is sometimes hard to find. Just found this article on the emerging church and it seems to highlight some of the important issues raised by the emerging church. It highlights some of the positives as well as…

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9 C Michael Patton Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:47:40 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-9 Michael, I would agree that we must have conviction of things not seen, but certainty is a tricky word. Understanding that we can all grow in our faith presupposes that we can all grow in our certainty. I think that part of the sinful condition is that we have faith riddled with various degrees out doubt. Mclaren is dangerous. The problem is that I have yet to decide whether the danger that he brings is positive, negative, or both. I think that he has come close to denying some essentials in an attempt to be faddish. Yet the questions he brings up are often good. The jury is out for me on that one. Thanks for the post! Michael, I would agree that we must have conviction of things not seen, but certainty is a tricky word. Understanding that we can all grow in our faith presupposes that we can all grow in our certainty. I think that part of the sinful condition is that we have faith riddled with various degrees out doubt.

Mclaren is dangerous. The problem is that I have yet to decide whether the danger that he brings is positive, negative, or both. I think that he has come close to denying some essentials in an attempt to be faddish. Yet the questions he brings up are often good. The jury is out for me on that one.

Thanks for the post!

]]> By: Michael Clary http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-10 Michael Clary Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:20:16 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-10 Thanks for this insightful post. I found myself saying "amen" several times! Especially noteworthy was your observation that you are a modernist around PoMos and a PoMo around modernists. Would you say that Brian McLaren has not denied the central truths of the faith? In his Generous Orthodoxy, he seems to be uncertain of things that constitute true faith. Since 'faith is the evidence of things hoped for,' it seems to me that genuine faith is to be certain of things that cannot otherwise be proven. Thanks for this insightful post. I found myself saying “amen” several times! Especially noteworthy was your observation that you are a modernist around PoMos and a PoMo around modernists.

Would you say that Brian McLaren has not denied the central truths of the faith? In his Generous Orthodoxy, he seems to be uncertain of things that constitute true faith. Since ‘faith is the evidence of things hoped for,’ it seems to me that genuine faith is to be certain of things that cannot otherwise be proven.

]]> By: Parchment and Pen » First Things Blogcast #7: Stop Calling Me Postmodern! http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8 Parchment and Pen » First Things Blogcast #7: Stop Calling Me Postmodern! Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:18:55 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-8 [...] Understanding the Postmodern Mind and the Emerging Church by Michael Patton Total Truth by Nancy Pearcey Postmodernizing the Faith by Millard Erickson Primer on Postmodernism by Stanly Grenz    First Things #7: Stop Calling Me Postmodern! [30:32m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download [...] [...] Understanding the Postmodern Mind and the Emerging Church by Michael Patton Total Truth by Nancy Pearcey Postmodernizing the Faith by Millard Erickson Primer on Postmodernism by Stanly Grenz    First Things #7: Stop Calling Me Postmodern! [30:32m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download [...]

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-6 C Michael Patton Thu, 26 Jul 2007 04:14:45 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-6 You are too smart for me. I have had to read this ten time to figure it out! It is a great comment, I think :) You are too smart for me. I have had to read this ten time to figure it out! It is a great comment, I think :)

]]> By: disciple http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-7 disciple Thu, 26 Jul 2007 03:44:32 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-7 Mikey, Instead of soft postmodernism, why not take it to the next level, the Oprah Winfrey, or dare I say Joel Osteen level of 'humanism'?! In other words, the 'self affirming,' 'encouraging but not judging,' half truth so prevalent in our 'positive self talk' society today?! After all, if the centrality of the Christian message is "dying is gain," why not attack the new self by promoting the 'self confidence' of the old self?! Put another way, the sham of absolute relativism (an oxymoronic statement equal to 'hard postmodernism') is currently being replaced by evolutionary progressivism - the idea that humans hold the key to moral objectivity at any point in history, and that objectivity is progressively altered according to the evolutionary progressive view, i.e., humanism. And yet I'm reminded of the joke: "You ever hear what Einstein's brother said when Albert proclaimed, 'Everything is relative?' He said, 'Absolutely.'" Much love my brotha. -b Mikey,

Instead of soft postmodernism, why not take it to the next level, the Oprah Winfrey, or dare I say Joel Osteen level of ‘humanism’?! In other words, the ’self affirming,’ ‘encouraging but not judging,’ half truth so prevalent in our ‘positive self talk’ society today?!

After all, if the centrality of the Christian message is “dying is gain,” why not attack the new self by promoting the ’self confidence’ of the old self?!

Put another way, the sham of absolute relativism (an oxymoronic statement equal to ‘hard postmodernism’) is currently being replaced by evolutionary progressivism - the idea that humans hold the key to moral objectivity at any point in history, and that objectivity is progressively altered according to the evolutionary progressive view, i.e., humanism.

And yet I’m reminded of the joke:

“You ever hear what Einstein’s brother said when Albert proclaimed, ‘Everything is relative?’

He said, ‘Absolutely.’”

Much love my brotha.

-b

]]> By: C Michael Patton http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-4 C Michael Patton Sat, 10 Mar 2007 17:00:24 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-4 Thanks Pastor Martin. I do know how confusing this issue can be. We are acutually recording sessions on Theology Unplugged about the Emerging church right now. God bless, Michael Thanks Pastor Martin. I do know how confusing this issue can be. We are acutually recording sessions on Theology Unplugged about the Emerging church right now.

God bless,

Michael

]]> By: nauvoopastor http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-5 nauvoopastor Sat, 10 Mar 2007 15:20:57 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-5 Micheal, Thanks for the post. I devoured it with much satisfaction and joy as you helped me to get a clearer picture of a confusing situation. You insights and descriptions are refreshing in light of some of the other material available on this topic. I appreciate your concise definitions of the situation that the church faces and look forward to seeing more about this in the future. Martin Pitcher, Pastor Nauvoo Baptist Church Micheal,

Thanks for the post. I devoured it with much satisfaction and joy as you helped me to get a clearer picture of a confusing situation. You insights and descriptions are refreshing in light of some of the other material available on this topic. I appreciate your concise definitions of the situation that the church faces and look forward to seeing more about this in the future.

Martin Pitcher, Pastor
Nauvoo Baptist Church

]]> By: The DIP Shtick » Blog Archive » Understanding the Emerging Church http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2006/09/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-3 The DIP Shtick » Blog Archive » Understanding the Emerging Church Thu, 01 Mar 2007 17:56:54 +0000 http://reclaimingthemind.org/devblog/index.php/2006/09/20/understanding-the-postmodern-mind-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-3 [...] blogs and recently came across a posting by C Michael Patton of the Parchment and Pen called “Understanding the postmodern mind and the emerging church“. When I read this, I thought he had been reading my mind. He is clearly a better writer than [...] [...] blogs and recently came across a posting by C Michael Patton of the Parchment and Pen called “Understanding the postmodern mind and the emerging church“. When I read this, I thought he had been reading my mind. He is clearly a better writer than [...]

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